10mm fiasco and the F B I....what was the REAL story?
pla...@hotmail.com
available to them (conjecture).... The 10mm is a very powerful and flexable
cartridge (fact).... So what REALLY HAPPENED? Was the 10mm just too much
weapon or was their training lacking in some area or both (or none of the
above)????? I don't believe that it was the weapons; there are alot of 1006,
1066, 1076 S&W autos still working well. The Glock is a great 10mm (with a
great track record), the Delta has had some difficulties with the extractors
in the early production models but that was then, this is now - what's the
story?
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Please find out about rec.guns at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
Anonymous Today
#
# So the FBI dropped the 10mm (fact)....The feds have some of the best training
# available to them (conjecture).... The 10mm is a very powerful and flexable
# cartridge (fact).... So what REALLY HAPPENED?
snip
I heard that there were infrequent but persistent "reliability problems"
at a higher-than-tolerable level, and the little girls didn't like the
size of the grip.
But none of these blowhard sources ever said what *type* of reliability
problems were being experienced...
Oh well. I'm interested in the "real" reason too. Reliability would be
easy to believe if we had some MTBF stats.
ssk...@earthlink.net
personal prefrences concerning caliber, size, weight, sights, etc. All of
these concerns must be weighed when the selected service weapon will be
purchased for, and issued to a large number of individuals. Throw into this
mix the PC theory that anyone can accomplish any job if only given the correct
tools. In the case of the FBI, they may be trying to find a tool to allow the
less than able to succeed. If it is anything like the local LOEs, the smaller
male and most females may not be able to control the weapon well enough to
qualify.
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Heidi
Their most recent published acquisition (HRT .45acp guns) reads like a
recipe for failure - they spec everything tightly because they can't SAY
"We want a XXX brand gun" so rather than use performance specs they
state stuff like 'Wilson Style Beavertail'. If they had used
performance specs for the 10mm base pistol they'd have gotten some
really good designs, but what they were searching for was a 10mm
cartridge, the platform being secondary.
snip..
> ...
--
My motto is: IFB (figure it out)
Support the anti-Spam amendment.
Join the fight http://www.cauce.org/
dire...@firearmstactical.com
# So the FBI dropped the 10mm (fact)....The feds have some of the best training
# available to them (conjecture).... The 10mm is a very powerful and flexable
# weapon or was their training lacking in some area or both (or none of the
# above)????? I don't believe that it was the weapons; there are alot of 1006,
# 1066, 1076 S&W autos still working well. The Glock is a great 10mm (with a
# great track record), the Delta has had some difficulties with the extractors
# in the early production models but that was then, this is now - what's the
# story?
The handgun, a custom S&W model 1076, was too big for universal carry. Also,
the FBI's specifications to modify the S&W M1006 into the Bureau's customized,
Sig-like, M1076 ruined the reliability of the firearm.
While the FBI was screwing around with its M1076s, the .40 S&W cartridge was
introduced.
--
Shawn Dodson, Director
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
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Bradford
They liked the S&W (1076?)but wanted the switch off the slide (makes sense to me
( : ). S&W protested; they did not want to mess with an established, WORKING
system (also reasonable). S&W caved in to get the "prestige". The design mod.
was linked (don't know how) to the parts breakage problem, and the 1076? and 10mm
started sinking fast.
I'm no fan of S&W autos. [Thats my perogative.] However, they work well
according to their track record and reputation. Except for the FBI's "product
tampered" 1076's.
Does anyone have good things to say about the 1076? Just curious.
pla...@hotmail.com wrote:
So the FBI dropped the 10mm (fact)....The feds have some of the best training
available to them (conjecture).... The 10mm is a very powerful and flexable
cartridge (fact).... So what REALLY HAPPENED? Was the 10mm just too much
weapon or was their training lacking in some area or both (or none of the
above)????? I don't believe that it was the weapons; there are alot of 1006,
1066, 1076 S&W autos still working well. The Glock is a great 10mm (with a
great track record), the Delta has had some difficulties with the extractors
in the early production models but that was then, this is now - what's the
story?
Gary Napolitano
# If it is anything like the local LOEs, the smaller
# male and most females may not be able to control the weapon well enough to
# qualify.
In the 80's EVERYONE was clamouring to buy wonder nines, .38 supers,
and anything else hi cap, and NOT a .45. Most were big strapping
guys, who deluded themselves they were as good with a 9 as they
COULD be with a 45. I went to every IPSC match with a .45 and
DID NOT win, but I didn't lose either, in most cases proving
.45's were capable of competing, finishing generally in the top 1/3
against unlimited guns who did worse. I shot a 220 power factor
and was ready for anything.
I'm 5'4" and when the 10 came around, I was proficient with a .45,
and the difference in recoil was NOT substantial enough to bother
me. Leaving the .45, I pursued 10's and today no one I know who
SHOOTS one of my 10's actually complains. Quite the opposite...
I know of dozens of people who now own 10's who BELIEVED the
sillyness about the 10 they read in the trade mags.
Suggesting "dimunitive" or "smaller" people killed the 10 is
ludicrous, it was the majority of larger men who were afraid
they'd look inferior if they didn't shoot it well.
Been there, seen it, fact not fiction. History may NOT be fact,
just written as it happened to be recorded.
Regards,
Gary
10MM Info site http://www.wizkidscomp.com/10mm
Josh Denny
a FBI gunfight involving two agents and an unknown (to me) number of
criminals. According to the article the female officer had difficulty
in controlling the 10mm on subsequent shots and this supposedly led to
the death of one of the agents (or it may have been both). I do not
know how much truth there is to this article (I read it on the net
somewhere) so take it with a grain of salt. But it went on to say that
due to the problem for smaller individuals of subsequent shot accuracy
the cartridge was dropped.
pla...@hotmail.com wrote:
> ...
Gary Napolitano
# The design mod.
# was linked (don't know how) to the parts breakage problem,
That's ludicrous, see below.
# Does anyone have good things to say about the 1076? Just curious.
Yes, I own one, a couple of friends own one, and DOZENS of readers from
the
10 pages own them, and I NEVER heard of a single problem with ANY 1076
from an OWNER, lots of BS from the NG, but not from an owner. Mine is a
retired FBI model, is more reliable than any Colt 1911 in .45 period.
The ONLY diference from the FBI model and the "PROVEN design" is the
slide,
which DOES NOT have a spring actuated plunger that depresses the
magazine
disconnector. It's impossible for the OMISSION to CAUSE a prolem. The
frames on ALL 1076's are identical.
As a matter of fact, anyone who knows of Mil-Hdbk-21x reliability
protocols
(Y know the standards for quality they use to put things in space) knows
that by parts count, LEAVING PARTS OUT, that have a failure rate, or
mechanism
of their own without affecting other parts, which in this instance is
the
case will increase reliability.
Regards,
Gary
10MM Info site http://www.wizkidscomp.com/10mm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dean Speir
# I heard that there were infrequent but persistent
# "reliability problems" at a higher-than-tolerable
# level, and the little girls didn't like the size of the grip.
# But none of these blowhard sources ever said what
# *type* of reliability problems were being experienced...
The BIGGEST problem was a total lock-up of the Models 1076
on three occasions, once on a range in Oklahoma City, also on
a range in Tampa, and in the field in Miami.
It was traced to the non-standard S&W trigger which had been
specified by the FBI because of their "trigger-prepping" doctrine
of presentation.
Not for nuthin', but I published all this in my GUN WEEK column
in July of 1991, and continued to report the story over the following
16 months until the FBI re-accepted the pistols, Fall 1992, so it's
not a big secret.
Dean Speir <dsp...@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Industry Intelligencer, FIREARMS FOURTH ESTATE
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
It's not a perfect world out there... it's why we _have_ guns!
Dean Speir
# So the FBI dropped the 10mm (fact).... - what's the story?
First, you have to look at why they adopted the 10mm in the first
place. It was at a time of broad spectrum LE transition to the
auto-pistol, and after that one po' l'il 9 X 19mm Silvertip was
blamed for the devastating losses in Miami on 11 April 1986,
an exhaustive search for the perfect auto-pistol cartridge was
undertaken. Test protocols were devised, and they began looking
at everything and anything... and finally settled in late 1988 upon
their own formula 10mm, one very much influenced by the thinking
of Dr. Martin L. Fackler who made a huge impact with the paper
he delivered at the first Wound Ballistics Seminar facilitated by
the FBI at Quantico in early September 1987.
So the downloaded 10mm (or FedLite) was born.
The background story that they needed a cartridge other than either
9 X 19mm or .45 ACP so that neither "camp" could claim bragging
rights, may actually have a modicum of truth to it. (The two
factions' leaders in this great debate seem to have been the Firearms
Training Unit's Executive Officer, Urey Patrick III, and Quantico's
legendary Bill vander Pool.)
Without sounding facetious, the real reason the FBI adopted the 10mm
that they did was simply because what we now know as the .40 S&W
wasn't around yet. They determined that they required a round which
would deliver a projectile within a certain weight range and of a
certain caliber, and which would perform in a certain way in soft
tissue... and came up with the 180-grain .400-inch round fired at
950 fps +/- 50 fps. The easiest solution at that stage was to take an
existing 10mm round (whose two "default cartridges" were then a
200-grain FMC/TC and a 170-grain PC (JHP) traveling, respectively,
at 1200 fps and 1300 fps) and modify it to FBI requirements.
(The resultant cartridge, the Federal #10C, a 180-grain Sierra JHP,
among other things, immediately caused the demise of the 170-grain
offerings in the Hornady, Remington and PMC lines as ammunition
manufacturers sought to re-standardize.)
Then the FBI selected a "home-grown" stainless SIG pistol in that
chambering, the proprietary Models 1076 from S&W, and began
confidently transitioning everyone to that system.
When these pistols began taking a dump, Quantico forced S&W to
recall the guns on 31 May 1991, while they immediately procured
2,000 SIG-Sauer Models P226 to issue to those who had already
transitioned to the auto-pistol. (Later, they pig-a-backed onto a DEA
procurement and added a bunch of Models P228 to their armory,
and when the re-worked Models 1076 were re-introduced about 16
months later, the revised contract was for 2,500 instead of 9,500
units.)
In the meantime, in a rare burst of creative thinking, S&W's then
President, Steve Melvin, had conceived of a "new" .40 S&W (there
was already at least one prototypal round of that designation with a
rebated rim _a la_ the .41 AE) based on the specifications of the
FBI's 10mm loading, and approached Olin to work up such a round
which could be launched from a platform virtually identical to the 9
X 19mm. The R&D was accomplished quickly, and introduced to
extraordinary acclaim at the 1990 SHOT Show in Las Vegas...
and the rest is history.
And as an example of perfect symmetry, comes now the FBI to adopt
the first production pistol ever released in that chambering, Glock,
and the cartridge which was, for all intents and purposes, designed
from the ground up per their specifications.
And THAT's the "real story." The only genuine "10mm fiasco" occurred
with Dornaus and Dixon and the Bren Ten... what happened to the round
in relation to the FBI was simply evolutionary, and all the other
stuff
you've read from other posters is either speculative, uninformed
or simply B.S.
If you stop and think about it, the Models 22 Glock have the ability
to fire more of substantially the identical cartridge as the Models
1076 S&Ws... and that business about controllability and agents
with small hands just doesn't cut it when examined closely. (Which
do you think is slimmer in the grip frame, the double-stack Glock
or the single column S&W?)
However, when Shawn Dodson says:
# The handgun, a custom S&W model 1076, was too
# big for universal carry.
...he neglects to mention that most FBI agents think that ANY
handgun is "too big" or "too heavy" to carry which is why so many
issued handguns repose in desk drawers or briefcases.
# Also, the FBI's specifications to modify the S&W
# M1006 into the Bureau's customized, Sig-like,
# M1076 ruined the reliability of the firearm.
That wasn't the reliability problem... as I explained to "Anonymous
Today" in a contemporaneous post, it was the triggers which had
to be re-designed to accommodate the FBI's then-instructed
"trigger-prepping" presentation. After they had three of the pistol
lock-up so completely they had to be returned to Springfield, MA,
they sent all the Models 1076 back.
# While the FBI was screwing around with
# its M1076s, the .40 S&W cartridge was
# introduced.
And there you go.
- Dean Speir / Industry Intelligencer
Byron
Could yougive us a quick run-down on the FeeBee "trigger-prepping". Is it as
dangerious as it sounds?
#It was traced to the non-standard S&W trigger which had been
#specified by the FBI because of their "trigger-prepping" doctrine
#of presentation.
#
Many thanks,
Byron, in Austin, Texas
dire...@firearmstactical.com
# "Dean Speir" <dsp...@suffolk.lib.ny.us> wrote:
# pla...@hotmail.com wrote:
#
# # So the FBI dropped the 10mm (fact).... - what's the story?
#
# First, you have to look at why they adopted the 10mm in the first
# place. It was at a time of broad spectrum LE transition to the
# auto-pistol, and after that one po' l'il 9 X 19mm Silvertip was
# blamed for the devastating losses in Miami on 11 April 1986,
# an exhaustive search for the perfect auto-pistol cartridge was
# undertaken.
The 115 grain Silvertip was an equipment failure that CONTRIBUTED to the
tragedy. It wasn't the sole CAUSE of the FBI's losses. The operational,
tactical and training failings of the Miami shootout were also examined.
Corrective actions in these areas were implemented, but without publicity.
# Without sounding facetious, the real reason the FBI adopted the 10mm
# that they did was simply because what we now know as the .40 S&W
# wasn't around yet. They determined that they required a round which
# would deliver a projectile within a certain weight range and of a
# certain caliber, and which would perform in a certain way in soft
# tissue... and came up with the 180-grain .400-inch round fired at
# 950 fps +/- 50 fps. The easiest solution at that stage was to take an
# existing 10mm round (whose two "default cartridges" were then a
# 200-grain FMC/TC and a 170-grain PC (JHP) traveling, respectively,
# at 1200 fps and 1300 fps) and modify it to FBI requirements.
I recall that John Hall, the FTU Unit Chief at the time, brought in his own
personal Colt 10mm just to see how it would compare to the 9mm and .45 ACP.
I also recall that one of the reasons given for selecting 10mm was that it
offered great potential to be adapted to meet various mission requirements.
The 10mm was seen as a more versatile cartridge than 9mm or .45 ACP.
--
Shawn Dodson, Director
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
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the_s...@my-dejanews.com
"Byron" <bdk...@email.msn.com> wrote:
# Hi Dean,
#
# Could yougive us a quick run-down on the FeeBee "trigger-prepping". Is it as
# dangerious as it sounds?
I don't remember exactly _when_ the stroke was supposed to start, but the
idea was to partially pull the DA trigger stroke (while bringing the gun up
to line of sight--and before the decision to fire was made???). Kind of an
idea to pull back partway so you can fire more quickly and accurately.
I'm hoping Dean S. can tell us if this is still taught by the FBI for 1076s
and SIGs...
ze...@my-dejanews.com
# I'm no fan of S&W autos. [Thats my perogative.] However, they work well
# according to their track record and reputation. Except for the FBI's "product
# tampered" 1076's.
# Does anyone have good things to say about the 1076? Just curious.
Yes, I own one of the ex-FBI "product tampered" 1076, and it is 100%
reliable. It's a great gun. I've got a better question, does anyone who
actually owns one have bad things to say about the 1076?
tiwolf
that perform any function for all FBI personnel? If this is the case how
could they have expected any cartridge to have performed up to this
standard? Furthermore, does the FBI not expect a similar situation to
develop with the .40 S&W, since no one firearm or cartridge can be
absolutely "perfect" for everyone or every situation. Would it not be better
to train and equip law enforcement with well made quality firearm that uses
the best available cartridge that performs well in many situations, but at
the same time drill the fact into LEOs that no one firearm or cartridge will
be the ideal equipment for every possible situation. This realization
coupled with training geared towards developing the skills in LEO to use a
firearms and it's cartridge to the maximum potential of the equipment
regardless of limitations.
This should not be taken to mean that people should stop trying to
advance the performance of ammuhition or the R&D of ammunition or firearms,
it is just my belief that is illustrated by the experience of others,that
hardware will never be all thing to all people or situations.
> ...
Harold Leahy
#actually owns one have bad things to say about the 1076?
I found the size or shape of the grips of the 1076 a bit large for my hands.
This increased the felt recoil. I traded it in for a Colt Double Eagle in
10mm and the problem went away.
Keep in mind that the FBI modified (and some police) 1076s have their
magazine safeties removed. If you buy a used 1076 check whether your safety
is there or not. Mine had its safety removed and when I traded it, I
informed the gun dealer who marked it on the tag. This could be hazardous to
someone who assumes (not a good idea) that all S&Ws have magazine safeties.
Zaba
properly identifying their target OR deciding that lethal force was justified???? The double
action trigger is on weapons for a couple of reasons, but one of them is safety. It is very hard
to accidentally fire an auto in DA mode. Pulling the trigger halway back WHILE DRAWING THE WEAPON
negates that safety feature, and can lead to serious accidents. When you're involved in a
situation where you must draw your weapon, your heart will be racing and your adrenaline flowing.
This will cause you to become stronger than you usually are, so drawing in this rediculous
fashion could lead to an accidental discharge.
If a civilian did such a thing, they would open themselves to manslaughter charges at the very
least. (Not to mention the lawsuits.)
If trigger pull was such a problem, why didn't they just go with combat customized 1911???
RRLAWYR
#reliable. It's a great gun. I've got a better question, does anyone who
#actually owns one have bad things to say about the 1076?
I doubt that you own an "ex-FBI" 1076. I don't believe any of the FBI pistols
were sold. You might have a trade-in from a local agency that opted for
another gun. The Virginia State Police is authorized to sell theirs to
troopers for, I believe, $10.
Gary Napolitano
# I doubt that you own an "ex-FBI" 1076. I don't believe any of the FBI pistols
# were sold.
Incorrect, the FBI contract refurbs WERE sold. As far as I know they
were the
ONLY 1076's WITHOUT the mag disconnector, as it WAS part of the FBI RFQ,
and no other PD's authorized their use due to the mag disconnector being
permanently disabled.
Regards,
Gary
10MM Info site http://www.wizkidscomp.com/10mm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ze...@my-dejanews.com
# I doubt that you own an "ex-FBI" 1076. I don't believe any of the FBI pistols
# were sold. You might have a trade-in from a local agency that opted for
# another gun. The Virginia State Police is authorized to sell theirs to
# troopers for, I believe, $10.
It was from the lot KY Imports was selling earlier this year. They said the
guns were from the FBI. It also has the "Capable of firing with magazine
removed" warning on the slide, which I have been told from reasonably
knowlegable sources, was only present on the FBI's 1076s.
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RRLAWYR
#pistols
## were sold.
#
#Incorrect, the FBI contract refurbs WERE sold. As far as I know they
#were the
#ONLY 1076's WITHOUT the mag disconnector
I'll have to take your word for that. An FBI agent told me that the pistols
would be destroyed, "to keep them off the street".
MatQuig
problem...training. As a "retired" cop, I've had to make do with a variety of
firearms issued by respective agencies that I regarded as similar to playing
with a "handicap" in a sport, although self defense and the defense of others
is not quite a sport...it's just that public agencies don't want to authorize
hardware that offends the public, and often falsl short of what the criminals
are able to use. A good gun handler can do things well with underpowered or
marginal weapons. Cops in general are not good gun handlers: from what I've
seen in 20 years, I'd rate them mediocre to poor shots. Sad. Their defensive
weapon is one of the few tools they are expected to learn how to use, and what
an important tool it is! Look at all the liability issues, if not the main
issue of staying alive with it. I blame the administrators, who for the most
part are incompetent in that that they fail to even recognize the problem, and
then further fail to address it; quite often because they lack any prowess or
knowledge or interest in firearms, regarding it as a necessary evil that should
go away, if it would only go away...MatQuig
Jerome A. Schroeder
Cops in general are not good gun handlers: from what I've
defensive
#weapon is one of the few tools they are expected to learn how to use, and
what
#an important tool it is!
This echo's my experience. I know some cops that are excellent shots, but I
also know computer programers and insurance agents that are equally good.
Those cops that shoot well do so because it is their hobby and they take an
interest in it. Why any cop does not is beyond me. True, they rarely use
their weapons, but a carpenter who did not know how to use all of his tools,
no matter how infrequently, would be laughed at.
At our range cops occaisionally show up to do their qualifications. Most
are frightenly bad. On the other side of the fence, we often see FBI types,
male and female, who are VERY good.
Perhaps its the movies. A friend notes that in most cop TV and Movies, the
hero is a crack shot because his heart is pure. I've seen scenes where the
cop grabs a strange snubbie .38 and drops a bad guy at 50 yards with one
shot. Cops are only human and can't help but soak this up. Since most cops
rarely use their weapons, they have no reason to learn otherwise.
Jerry
drhntr
> ...
I've owned a 1076 for a couple of years now, and have noticed it
shoots pretty low. Can anyone give me an idea of what I might do about
it.
Pete Psingpy
38 snub nose at a guy on a boat at least 50 yds out, after he got
sprayed in the face with gasoline and couldn't see anything. Of course
he nailed the guy. I got a good laugh out of that.
#Perhaps its the movies. A friend notes that in most cop TV and Movies, the
#hero is a crack shot because his heart is pure. I've seen scenes where the
#cop grabs a strange snubbie .38 and drops a bad guy at 50 yards with one
#shot. Cops are only human and can't help but soak this up. Since most cops
#rarely use their weapons, they have no reason to learn otherwise.
#
John Abatte
rear sight installed.
drhntr wrote:
> ...
--
John Abatte
jab...@wt.net
"To its committed members (the Democratic Party) was still the party
of heart, humanity, and justice, but to those removed a few paces it
looked like Captain Hook's crew--ambulance-chasing lawyers, rapacious
public policy grants persons, civil rights gamesmen, ditzy-brained
movie stars, fat-assed civil servant desk squatters, recovering
alcoholics, recovering wife-beaters, recovering child-buggers, and
so forth and so on, a grotesque line-up of ill-mannered, self-pitying,
caterwauling freeloaders banging their tin cups on the pavement
demanding handouts."
--Columnist Nicholas von Hoffman
The Washington Post (11-12-94)
Mark Gibson
#On 20 Dec 1998 12:15:35 -0500, rrl...@aol.com (RRLAWYR) wrote:
#
# > ...
#
#
#I've owned a 1076 for a couple of years now, and have noticed it
#shoots pretty low. Can anyone give me an idea of what I might do about
#it.
Aim pretty high?
<ducking and running!>
Regards,
Mark