8mm Mauser chamberings ???
ReconRyan
there been any commercial guns chambered for 8mm Mauser ?
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nord...@yahoo.com
# there been any commercial guns chambered for 8mm Mauser ?
Not in the US.
George
# Besides the Remington 700 Classic a few years ago, and customs, have
# there been any commercial guns chambered for 8mm Mauser ?
I was amazed to see there wasn't one on the CZ USA site. They are listed
here:
http://www.zastava-arms.co.yu/images/civilni/lovacki_karabini/14100.htm
Sako 85: http://www.sako.fi/pdf/specs/85Bavarian.pdf Not shown on the
Berretta USA web site though.
Blaser USA lists it on their web site:
http://www.blaser-usa.com/Calibers-Standard-Imperial.367.0.html
Styer lists the: http://www.steyrarms.com/index.php?id=159
Krieghof lists it for their Hubertus single shot:
http://www.krieghoff.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Itemid=117
and their classic double:
http://www.krieghoff.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=611&Itemid=173
Lot$ of dollars$ I'm sure.
I know there are more but the 8mm Mauser isn't really a sporting cartridge
in the US. In Europe I am sure that is a different story since all of the
rifles I found wee of Europen origin.
George in Las Vegas
Giampingjack
last 20 years, only in Alpi mountains was secular.
most hunting rifles are 30-06 , like a standard
ReconRyan
which seems to be more uncommon than the 8x57 should be. I guess Im
just 50 years late for the Mauser cartridge...
Advocate54
"ReconRyan" <lyin...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:g1i0mq$hge$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#I know it is weird. Tikka and CZ both chamber 6.5x55 here in the US
# which seems to be more uncommon than the 8x57 should be. I guess Im
# just 50 years late for the Mauser cartridge...
#
Not really...it's a terrific cartridge and very worthy of a search. Why not
find a nice sporterized K98? I own one and love it. With my handloads it
will do everything a 30/06 will and then some.
penultimate
> ...
Which of the four different rounds called "8x57 Mauser" are you
referring to?
Because you reference the Remington 700 chambering, one might well
assume that it is the 8x57JS (S = .323 bullet diameter, rimless 8x57
Mauser cartridge).
This is the round used in all Model 98 8x57 chambered military mausers
produced after 1904 or so. Before this date, MILITARY 8x57 Mausers
were originally barreled for 0.318" bullets. Unless you know for sure
by Mauser model and country, any earlier model Mauser military rifle
in 8x57 should have hits barrel slugged to confirm bore diameter
before firing with 8x57JS ammunition. The relatively few M98 military
Mausers carting about J barrels is probably few and probably are
strong enough to only risk fast wear with JS rounds.
But this should not be assumed with commercial production J bores,
particularly single shots and combination guns. And awareness of
production date is not a useful indication of bore in rifles that are
not always clearly marked as to cartridge. For whatever reason, both
large and small European makers persisted with J bores in commercial
rifles for several decades after the JS bore cartridge was
introduced.
Anyone interested in the 8x57 (in all representations, approximately
the ballistic equivalent of a 30-06) needs the broader cartridge
familiarity. This is both for safety reasons and to be sure that you
really want to own a COMMERCIAL 8x57 Mauser you might have opportunity
to buy.
Basically, the 8X57 cartridge comes in a rimmed version (usually in a
single shot or combination gun like a drilling) and a rimless version
(usually chambered in bolt actions), Each comes in a version with
bullets sized to a 0.318" (J) bore and bullets sized to the larger,
0.323" (S) bore. An S bullet of either flavor down a J bore is not a
smart thing. While a bolt will USUALLY not close on a rimmed (R)
Mauser cartridge, a rimless cartridge (of either S or J bore flavor)
will drop perfectly into an 8x57JR chamber and likely fire, yielding
at least (and hopefully only) extraction problems. An 8x57JS fired in
a drilling 8x57JR chamber is likely to blow the gun up, I shoot an
8x57JR barreled drilling.
Your local gun store probably carries 8x57JS Mauser ammunition. The
other three 8x57 Mauser rounds (8x57J, 8x57JR, 8x57JRS) are difficult
to find and, unless you are very fortunate, probably will have to be
special ordered.
Most (but not all) European commercial rifle production from before
WWII in 8x57 is Jbore (rimmed or rimless) and most (but not all) post
war commercial 8x57 Mauser chamberings from Europe are JS bore (rimmed
or rimless). The beautiful 1910 vintage Obendorf sporter you might
find in 8x57 is very likely chambered and barreled for the 8x57J
Mauser cartridge. Both J-bore cartridges and J-Bore bullets are hard
to find. And, US produced 8x57JS ammunition, probably to avoid
liability if fired in a J-bore, is pretty anemic stuff. So even with
an 8x57JS you probably have to handload (given a good, modern, rifle)
to get performance equivalent to the 30-06. For whatever it is worth,
Huntington's carries J bullets. Loaded ammo for all possibilities is
made by Sellier and Belloit, though you will probably have to special
order and wait a while to get it.
Probably to avoid all this funky bullet diameter business, in the
1920's Winchester avoided an 8x57 Mauser chambering in the Model 54,
but did sell a few rifles in 9x57 Mauser - the same cartridge necked
up, a popular "alg" round in northern Europe. Note that this was
basically a 35 Whelan equivalent in a metric "factory" guise. But the
30-06 pretty much stuck in America and the metric rounds available in
the Model 54 did not light of day in the Model 70.
Obviously, R vs rimless matters Some think the J vs JS bore business
does not, except in a Commission rifle. Looking at the skinny barrel
my drilling and some of the other pre-war commercial German rifles I
have seen, if I'm pulling the trigger, I want a J bullet in a J bore.
Certainly, I would not fire 8x57JS (or JRS) ammunition from a European
maker (which is NOT anemic) in a pre-war, European J bore rifle.
Basically then, if you have a J-bored Commercial production 8x57, be
sure any European ammo is of an exactly matching flavor.
ReconRyan
Blah, blah, blah...
JS of course !!!
I may be a craxy american but I am not stupid.
This is 2008 is it not ?
Long after 1904 isnt it ???????????????
Am I patronizing you, yes just a little, but light hearted please dont
take offense.
8mm (8x57JS) has not been popular here in the US since right after
both world wars. We dont see much of it and when we do it is reduced
for use in all these wonderful surplus rifles.
The Mauser design is one of the best the world has ever seen. Many
companies today work hard to make exact copies of it. The 8mm cartidge
can be wonderfully powerful when handloaded. But it is part of that
origninal design and should not be forgotten.
I a just pissed off as a yank that it is not available here in modern
form. Remington 798 is a Mauser made in Europe, quite possibly in some
original plant tat made K98s or M48s. But it still is not offered in
8x57JS ???
I dont know,what it is I am trying to say but I like this gun and this
caliber even though I have never shot it.
Armchair reminiscing I guess...
Cheers to all shooters, amature and professional !!!
Giampingjack
in Serbia by Zastava Arms (former Z.C.Z. zavodi crvena zastava) an ex
military arsenal of former Yugoslavia
penultimate
> ...
If you own a COMMERCIAL 8x57 BOLT ACTION purchased in America new or
used that is NOT a Remington 700, it is:
a. Very likely of pre-WWII European production, and IF SO,
b. far, far, far, more likely to be chambered for an 8x57J barrel
than 8x57JS. I have owned a couple and handled many 8x57 COMMERCIAL
bolt action rifles in J-bore. I can not recall seeing (other than
Remington) a JS marked commercial rifle.
And Remington did not end up selling very many 8x57 JS rifles. So, if
you are shooting an 8x57 rifle built originally as a COMMERCIAL
SPORTING RIFLE, it is probablly from Europe, probably made Pre-WWII,
and probably J (NOT JS) barreled. Whether you care or not is another
matter, because some think its just fine to shoot an 0.005" oversize
bullet. But most that shoot (inappropriately in my mind) oversize JS
bullets in a J bore rifle haven't got a clue of the difference. This
ignorance is why Remington 8x57 JS ammo is the ballistically closer to
a 30-30 than a 30-06. I think I remember that John Barsness was
referring to Remington 8x57 loads when he talked about pressue levels
on a par with a buritto fart. Certainly my chronograph suggests that
is about right.
MILITARY 8x57 rifle production was 8x57JS from 1904 onwards and most
pre-1904 8x57 Military rifles (except obsolete Commission rifles) were
rebarreled ultimately to the JS bore. In contrast, COMMERCIAL 8x57
production in Europe, for whatever reason, remained 8x57J. This is as
true for 1937 produced commercial rifles as for 1910 produced
commercial rifles. For all intents and purposes, the 8x57JS was NOT a
(common) pre-war sporting round in Europe, meaning predominantly
Germany and Austria. The 8x57J was. Neither chambering has EVER been
"popular" at any time in America in COMMERCIAL rifles. American
familiarity with the 8x57 cartridge is almost exclusively based on
military surplus (bring backs and imports) in both original and
"sporterized" form.
European shooters know the difference, European ammo makers market all
four rounds, and factory ammo is loaded to pressures that assume the
shooter buys cartridges appropriate to the rifle. By and large,
American shooters don't know the difference and American ammo is
loaded anemically in response. If, for example, you get ahold of some
modern RWS 8x57 ammo, read the box. It would NOT be particularly wise
to shoot RWS 8x57JS hunting loads in an 8x57J bore rifle.
You note "post war" popularity of the 8x57. Although "popular" is a
bit of a stretch, most of this was of course caused by rifles brought
or shipped home by returning troops. For WWI almost all were military
battlefield trophies, though some fine European rifles were purchased
and brought home. For WWII, a fair nunber of fine German sporting
rifles "liberated" or seized by occupation troops were included.
These were fairly numerous because German civilians were ordered to
turn in all small arms and lots of GIs snatched them before they were
crushed in the town square by a tank. Almost all of these liberated
sporting rifles in 8x57 are J bore. Many of these commercial rifles
have appeared on the market only in the past few years, having been
hidden unused and forgotten for 50 years in the closet of a returning
GI. In 1946 you probably could not get 8x57 ammo of either J or JS
bore, so the distinction was fairly irrelevant. Without ammo, these
rifles were stored and often forgotten. Today, the distinction is
more important because the ammo on the shelf is probably not exactly
what you want for the COMMERCIAL rifle.
This history and the ignorance of it will never be erased. This makes
the 8x57 in either J or JS flavor a lousy cartridge choice for a new
rifle --- nearly the worst you could make --- because as good as
potential for the cartridge is, factory ammo you can easily buy in the
US will always deliver sub-par performance. US factories will and
should avoid chambering for this cartridge like the plague --- except
as a boutique chambering to force addicted collectors to buy another
rifle. this, of course, is why Remington issued the Model 700 in 8x57
JS. And even a handloader would have to have a screw loose to build a
custom rifle in 8x57 (JS or otherwise) given the many ballistically
comparable, but "better" (e.g., 30-06 or 308) choices. Here "better"
means nothing more than a good selection of bullets are readily
available.
That leaves you with the rifles that already exist. There are
millions of military surplus 8 mm's out there and possibly 10,000 or
20,000 or so, maybe more, probably fewer, commercially made rifles in
8x57, most of which are J-bore. There are a lot more "sporterized"
military 8x57 JS Mausers out there than there are commercial rifles
chambered in 8x57 of any flavor. So guess what. 0.318 bullets are
both expensive and hard to find, but, in my mind at least, should be
used in a J-bore rifle, especially if you wish to load to the
ballistic potential (e.g., ~= 30-06) of the cartridge and rifle. You
deal with the problems of a J-bore cartridge because you come to own a
really neat rifle that is J-bore with workmanship unavailable in a
factory rifle today, not because the cartridge is desireable.
YOU brought up the issue of COMMERCIAL PRODUCTION rifles chambered in
8x57 Mauser without further qualification. Although I can point to no
data to prove it, it is certainly my belief that a minority of
COMMERCIALLY PRODUCED 8x57 MAUSERS AS YOU FIND THEN IN THE US are
chambered for the 8x57JS round, most of these being from Remington.
So if you are interested COMMERCIAL rifles in "8x57 Mauser", it would
serve to remember J-bores. They did not become a figment of the past
in 1904 as some seem to believe. If you are going to shoot Remington
"burrito fart" 8x57 loads, ignorance probably will not kill you. If
you are handloading to make your 8mm rounds "wonderfully powerful", I
would certainly advise awareness.
wb
I shoot a really nice Persian Mauser in 8x57mm all the time. In fact
it is my favorite rifle and I shoot targets from 100 yards out to 600
yards. The 8x57mm is a very accurate round. We locked the Mauser in a
bench rest rig a friend owns and the old 1930 Brno shot under 1" groups
with hand loads using 200 gr Sierra Match bullets at 100 yards.
We play around with old bolt actions using iron sights at the range and
the old Mauser generally shoots some of the tightest groups. Swedish
Mausers, in 6.5x55mm can also shoot tight groups with hand loads.
I have seen a modern CZ rifle in 8x57. As for mil surp, The Brno made
Persian Mausers are among the best. But, I'm sure one of those Mitchells
Mausers would shoot the same. Personally I like Mauser rifles, both old
and new. They just plain make a good rifle. We mostly fool around with
WWII and older rifles. I'm sure a modern rifle set up as a target rifle
and chambered in 8x57mm would do better then my 80 year old Persian.
Advocate54 wrote:
> ...
.
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