P38 vs 1911
Marc Hildebrant
I recently cleaned and disassembled both a P38 Walther and a 1911-A1 from
Springfield Armory. The difference bewteen the two was clear...at least to
me. I'm looking for comments.
To me, the 1911 was a great example of the simpler then better design. The
P38 was loaded with tiny springs and small parts. The 1911 is just simple
and direct. Am I right in claiming that the 1911 is a much better handgun
for the military?
Marc
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Robert Hollingsworth
Marc Hildebrant wrote:
# If the subject has been said before...sorry for asking.
#
# I recently cleaned and disassembled both a P38 Walther and a 1911-A1 from
# Springfield Armory. The difference bewteen the two was clear...at least to
# me. I'm looking for comments.
# To me, the 1911 was a great example of the simpler then better design. The
# P38 was loaded with tiny springs and small parts. The 1911 is just simple
# and direct. Am I right in claiming that the 1911 is a much better handgun
# for the military?
#
# Marc
And how many angels do you think can dance on the head of a pin?
This is one of those opinion questions that will never be fully settled.
Many feel that the P-38 has a safer loaded carry system and that that offsets
the number of parts argument.
Some argue that the ability of the P-38 to allow a second strike on a
cartridge that failed to fire offsets that argument.
In many ways the Beretta M-9 is just an improved P-38 with a 15 shot magazine,
yet the US military tossed aside the pistol that ghod and John Moses Browning
intended for us to carry for that gun. See, I have no bias here in this
argument.
-Bob Hollingsworth
Lshark
The fewer parts, the simpler the gun, the less chance fouling or other such
issues would jam the weapon. Keeping it as simple as possible is a tried
and true postulate for a military weapon. It also makes disassembly and
re-assembly faster and easier (field stripping).
The 1911 is really a wonderful weapon design. I really didn't realize it
until I finally purchased a 1911 style Kimber. I had owned a combat
commander Colt a number of years ago, but sold it because I really didn't
shoot it much and it was too big for me to carry concealed. I now have the
Ultra (3" barrel) and it's one of my favorite concealed carry guns.
I still believe that going to the 9mm was a poor choice, but it was done to
be in line with NATO. It's a much less effective round, but that's another
topic of discussion.
Lshark.........
Marc Hildebrant <hildebra...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:8smm5t$mah$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
Ndob111
a new hand gun what features did they take from the P-38? 1. cartridge {9m/m
not 45acp] 2. decocking safety. 3.double action first shot. 4.locking block
system not Browning swing link. 5. open top ejector. features from the
1911A1? Don't get wound up in the springs. Duane
P.A. Harrington
<rrh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
#Many feel that the P-38 has a safer loaded carry system and that that offsets
#the number of parts argument.
#
???????????
Care to explain that one? I cannot think of any self-loader that has
a safer loaded carry mode that the 1911A1 design.
..P
Get free downloadable targets at http://harringt.home.mindspring.com/targets.htm
jimb...@my-deja.com
the P-38 the piecacrap weapon that it truly is, it's the piss-poor
ejector, the balance, the hold, the ejection right in your face (unless
you're lefthanded) design, and the pathetic cartridge it fired. German
WW2 FMJ 9mmP was NOT a manstopper. Today, the P-38 is a curio, and you
can't carry it stuck in your belt, and... Geeze. I've owned 3 of them,
and none was worth the price.
GS
#If the subject has been said before...sorry for asking.
#
#I recently cleaned and disassembled both a P38 Walther and a 1911-A1 from
#Springfield Armory. The difference bewteen the two was clear...at least to
#me. I'm looking for comments.
#To me, the 1911 was a great example of the simpler then better design. The
#P38 was loaded with tiny springs and small parts. The 1911 is just simple
#and direct. Am I right in claiming that the 1911 is a much better handgun
#for the military?
#
#Marc
You bet it is. the reason the 1911 lasted so long and is still going is
the simplicity. Keep It Simple Stupid = KISS concept.
Hank Jackson
target, in the summer of '65. $90.00. Now that was worth the price.
Trigger was awful. I couldn't shoot it worth a damn. Finally sold it. .
..for $90.00. . .and bought a new Browning HiPower, for $125.00. Even with
the teensy fixed sights, I could shoot Necco wafers with that HiPower.
Finally sold it. . .and bought a Colt .45 Government Model. Worked on
that Colt, off and on, for 10 years, until it would put 10 rounds under a
50-cent piece at 50 feet. Still have that Colt. Plan to be buried with it.
Who says you can't take it with you?
Cheers,
Hank Jackson
Robert Hollingsworth
P.A. Harrington wrote:
# On 19 Oct 2000 10:45:28 -0400, Robert Hollingsworth
# <rrh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
#
# #Many feel that the P-38 has a safer loaded carry system and that that offsets
# #the number of parts argument.
# #
# ???????????
#
# Care to explain that one? I cannot think of any self-loader that has
# a safer loaded carry mode that the 1911A1 design.
Didn't say I believed it, just that many do.
Some believe carrying the P-38 with the chamber loaded and hammer down is safer
because it LOOKS safer, I do not. Some believe on can carry the P-38 with the safety
on and the hammer down (has to be down for the safety to be on) means that with the
firing pin levered out of the way the gun can not be fired if dropped or thrown to
the ground either muzzle first or hammer first.
The 1911 A1 design can be made to discharge when the chamber is loaded by hurling it
muzzle down on a hard surface, regardless of the status of the hammer, grip safety
or slide safety. This is the reason for the "anti lawyer" device, the firing pin
block, added in the Series 80 Colt guns. I think the block is silly myself and can
not help but adversely effect trigger pulls.
I personally prefer the M-1911 type guns myself as the original post made clear.
-Bob Hollingsworth
Don Campbell
gun I would want a .45. Why? Good question! It is because I use a 147 GR.
Silvertip HP round in my Khar. Now in the Navy they use a FMJ as they did
in the .45.
The 9mm is a high speed light round that can go right through and it may be
a few mins before you know you are dead. With the .45, slow and heavy that
would knock the person back the way they came.
My understanding the reason that the .45 was used over the .38 was just this
reason. Put a bayonet on the frount of your rifle and charge on some poor
officer that only has a pistol:
1) He shoots the bad guy with the .38/.9mm FMJ, bad guy dead keeps coming
and stabs officer, officer dead.
2) He shoots the bad guy with a 1911 .45 and bad guy is dead and knocked
back the way he came.
If we could learn that in the WWII, wy don't we know it now?
Don
NRA GOA
jimb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> ...
jfi...@webtv.net
My P-38 has a great ejector (haven't had a jam in over 1000 rounds). I
love Its balance and hold. It has never ejected a case into my face (I'm
right handed). It fires any ammo I feed it and I can carry it in my
belt with no problem.
Oh yeah. My P-38 is worth about 20 times what I paid for it.
Jimbo6852 wrote
....
reed...@hotmail.com
the "as issued" WWII P-38 and 1911A1. Stock WWII .45's generally had
TINY sights and a heavy (around 7 pounds is common) trigger. For me,
holding the gun correctly to keep the grip safety depressed for every
shot is also a problem. Not to mention the hammer bite from the
standard hammer/grip safety combo. The .45 may have a good first shot
hit ratio, but I've read many accounts that say that empty chamber
carry was frequently SOP, which makes the pistol much slower to get
into action.
The WWII P-38 by comparasion has very good sights for the era, large
and easy to pick up. There's no grip safety to get in the way and,
although I don't know German WWII SOP, I would think the DA action
would allow loaded chamber carry.
I've fired both types of WWII mil spec pistols, and for me, the P-38
would have been what I prefered. Now a modern, custom or high class
production 1911 type would be a different story, but were talking
about "as issued" guns here. The 1911 may be a better design in its
final form, but the WWII guns aren't the same as what we have now.
Rob Reed
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Before you buy.
JOHN GARAND
# With the .45, slow and heavy that
#would knock the person back the way they came.
I personally like the .45 and think it is a great defensive round.
But this absolute belief that even a FMJ 230 will always "knock a man
down" (or back) is not only unfounded, it is foolhardy. It almost
rates right up there with "Hit him in the thumb with a .45 ACP and he
will be spun around!". Hopefully some novice armed with a .45 ACP
will not just stare when the threat is neither driven backwards, nor
drops, with a solid hit.
If Jeff Cooper (arguably the most fervent proponent of the M-1911
series alive) believed in this almost infallible status for the .45
ACP, there would be no sense to his advocacy of the "Mozambique". I
certainly wouldn't accuse the Colonel of engaging in nonsense when it
comes to defensive hand gunning.
jimb...@my-deja.com
either the 1911A1 or the P-38: FN or Canadian Clone P-35, Nambu, Radom,
Tokarev, and even the Beretta .380. Of all, although most hands have no
trouble with the grip safety or hammer-spur of the 1911A1, the
Browning/FN/Inglis 1935 with its 13-shot magazine was probably the best
of the lot. Yes, SOP for the 1911A1 in all US Forces required empty
chamber, Wehrmacht regs of course permitted carrying the DA on first
shot P-38 with chamber loaded. Other than that. you might as well
compare the Mauser 98k and Garand rifles and try to determine which was
"better," based on their sights.
graham...@my-deja.com
trigger pull. I don't think any gun I own has a worse trigger. And it
wasn't especially accurate.
Then there was the time a round hung up in the chamber and the slide
was about 90% in battery. Instinctively I firmly rammed the rear of
the slide with the heel of my palm. Whoops! Forgot about that sharp
little "chamber loaded" indicator. Still have the scar.
The decocking lever has been known to ignite a round on occasion.
While the P-38 was a revolutionary gun for its time, and introduced a
lot of innovative features that we see on "modern" production pistols,
I don't see it having the timeless appeal and genius of design that the
1911 (and P35) exhibit to this day.
In article <8smm5t$mah$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
"Marc Hildebrant" <hildebra...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
# If the subject has been said before...sorry for asking.
#
# I recently cleaned and disassembled both a P38 Walther and a 1911-A1
from
# Springfield Armory. The difference bewteen the two was clear...at
least to
# me. I'm looking for comments.
# To me, the 1911 was a great example of the simpler then better
design. The
# P38 was loaded with tiny springs and small parts. The 1911 is just
simple
# and direct. Am I right in claiming that the 1911 is a much better
handgun
# for the military?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pat Minchau
of that era. It definitely has the best sights of any auto pistol of WW2.
It is easier to field strip then the M1911, M1911A. It was the first
"official" DA pistol to be adopted by a major millitary power (The PP was
not official), although most people don't regard this as a major advantage
(Probably due to the stiff DA trigger pull). The 9mm FMJ is regarded by
most in this newsgroup as a barely adequate man stopper as compared to the
..45 ACP. I believe the P-38 is as rugged as any service pistol.
Wes Holland
<GARAND_...@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> ...
As and M-60 Gunner USMC in 1965-66 Republic of Vietnam I carried a
1911 as a side arm which was standard for a 60 gunner.
Sadly on occasion I had to resort to the 45 at point blank range. No
it won't knock anyone back when you shoot them and you better put a
round in their head or several the center of their chest. And no
"They don't all fall to the ball."
I had sappers that were loaded from smoking opium ....we would find it
on them after a fire fight take hit after hit from a my 60 and just
keep coming. Many had their arms and legs tied off in tourniquets so
they could continue to fight after a hit.
Wes Holland SGM USMC (retired)
"Duty is the most sublime word in our language.
Do your duty in all things you could never do more you should
never wish to do less."
Gen.Robert E. Lee CSA
http://www.mindspring.com/~mwholland/smoke.htm