7x57 vs. 8x57 pressures
Alan Petrillo
rated for 51,000 PSI, and the 8x57 for only 35,000. What's up with that?
TIA,
AP
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michae...@yahoo.com
# rated for 51,000 PSI, and the 8x57 for only 35,000. What's up with that?
SAAMI specs are intended to reduce the risk of firing "modern" 7.92x57
ammunition with the .323 diameter bullet through an "antique" 7.92x57
rifle with the early .318 bore; the result is 32 Winchester Special
ballistics. Have a look at European CIP specs for modern full power
7.92x57 commercial ammunition; it runs with the 308 and the '06.
MadD...@yahoo.com
# I was looking over a list of SAAMI pressures, and I saw that the 7x57 is
# rated for 51,000 PSI, and the 8x57 for only 35,000. What's up with that?
#
Alan,
The problem was that the Huns produced the 8x57 in two
bore sizes, (.318" & .321" - IIRC - not sure, you'd better check.).
Use of the full size bullet in the older, smaller bores lead to
overpressure incidents so SAMMI lowered the pressure limit.
I have had no problems loading 8x57 to higher pressures after
being sure I had the larger bore size.
I am more familiar with the old 'cup` units published with the older
loading data I was using when I worked up those loads, but 48K. lb.s
'cup` to 51K. lb.s 'psi` sounds like it's in the ballpark.
As long as you've got one of the later '98` actions in good condition,
you're OK with the higher pressure. (Face dimensions and therefore
total back-thrust, are identical.)- If you are in doubt, 'slug` the
bore.
As always when working up a load, check the first few rounds for
'flat` primers. At above 50K. psi or so they flatten a bit, but if it
looks
like the metal has started to flow, back off immediately.
Best of luck,
MadDog
"No matter how hard you struggle to cram The Theory into your head,
The Practice will find a way to bite you on the ass."
Clark
@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
# I was looking over a list of SAAMI pressures, and I saw that the 7x57 is
# rated for 51,000 PSI, and the 8x57 for only 35,000. What's up with that?
#
#
Allowance for pre-98K actions. If you own a 98K and buy 'merican ammo, better
learn to "roll your own."
Alan Petrillo
# # I was looking over a list of SAAMI pressures, and I saw that the 7x57 is
# # rated for 51,000 PSI, and the 8x57 for only 35,000. What's up with that?
#
# SAAMI specs are intended to reduce the risk of firing "modern" 7.92x57
# ammunition with the .323 diameter bullet through an "antique" 7.92x57
# rifle with the early .318 bore; the result is 32 Winchester Special
# ballistics. Have a look at European CIP specs for modern full power
# 7.92x57 commercial ammunition; it runs with the 308 and the '06.
Cool, thanks.
AP
Alan Petrillo
# Alan Petrillo <a...@baylink.com> wrote in news:dpk4a9$3cr$1
# @grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
#
# # I was looking over a list of SAAMI pressures, and I saw that the 7x57 is
# # rated for 51,000 PSI, and the 8x57 for only 35,000. What's up with that?
# #
# #
# Allowance for pre-98K actions. If you own a 98K and buy 'merican ammo, better
# learn to "roll your own."
So far all I've run through it was Turkish surplus, and Sellier&Bellot.
It shoots straight with both of them.
I'm just learning how to reload, so I'll be rolling some loads for it
soon. I have some Barnes X-Bullets I want to try in it, and if it
shoots straight with them then I'd like to take it hunting.
AP
Clark Magnuson
1903 Turk Mauser 8mm 29.5" barrel, 48 gr. IMR4895 220 gr. Sierra 2420,
3.22" OAL
measured 2675 fps
short brass life.
So why the wimpy SAAMI loadings for 8x57mm?
I am almost always a believer in incompetence over conspiracy
explanations, but the fate of the 8mm cartridge at the hands of the
sporting industry has me pondering conspiracies.
Consider this:
1) The 8mm is an excellent cartridge for hunting deer, bear, elk, etc.
2) A large fraction of the rifles for sale at a gun show are 8mm.
3) There have been 100,000,000 '98 Mausers in 8mm surplused around the
world.
4) Disassembling a '98 Mauser, a Rem 700, Win 70, Ruger 77, Browning
A-bolt, and Sav 110 while looking for quality makes the Mauser come out
on top.
And yet:
1) What American gun manufacturers offer a rifle in 8mm?
2) The American ammo manufacturers offer 8mm ammo in the 30-30 class.
Could this all be because:
1) The American arms industry got together and conspired to sabotage 8mm
popularity.
2) Americans are too incompetent to see the 8mm as a great hunting
cartridge.
What to do?
Handload or buy European ammo, free from SAAMI wimpiness:
http://www.norma.cc/sida/eng/jakt/sortiment/sortimenthoger.asp?Kaliber=26
--
Accidental creation should not be taught as a fact.
Intelligent creation should not be banned from teachings as
unconstitutional.
Alan Petrillo
# With handloading I can get 3,500 foot pounds from an 8x57mm.
#
# 1903 Turk Mauser 8mm 29.5" barrel, 48 gr. IMR4895 220 gr. Sierra 2420,
# 3.22" OAL
#
# measured 2675 fps
Nice.
# short brass life.
You wanna play you gotta pay.
# So why the wimpy SAAMI loadings for 8x57mm?
# I am almost always a believer in incompetence over conspiracy
# explanations, but the fate of the 8mm cartridge at the hands of the
# sporting industry has me pondering conspiracies.
#
# Consider this:
# 1) The 8mm is an excellent cartridge for hunting deer, bear, elk, etc.
# 2) A large fraction of the rifles for sale at a gun show are 8mm.
# 3) There have been 100,000,000 '98 Mausers in 8mm surplused around the
# world.
Indeed, with all of these surplus rifles in the world you'd think the
ammunition would be more available.
But I also know that a LOT of these surplus rifles have been used to
make sporters and customs.
# 4) Disassembling a '98 Mauser, a Rem 700, Win 70, Ruger 77, Browning
# A-bolt, and Sav 110 while looking for quality makes the Mauser come out
# on top.
I think it depends on where it was made. I have an old Spanish Mauser
in 7x57 that I've turned into a wall hanger. It was woefully
inaccurate, and turned out to be out of headspace. It swallowed the
no-go. It's built on a CETME made reciever, and the alloy in it is too
soft.
# And yet:
# 1) What American gun manufacturers offer a rifle in 8mm?
# 2) The American ammo manufacturers offer 8mm ammo in the 30-30 class.
#
# Could this all be because:
# 1) The American arms industry got together and conspired to sabotage 8mm
# popularity.
# 2) Americans are too incompetent to see the 8mm as a great hunting
# cartridge.
That could be something of an explanation, and it might just be part of
the picture, but I think the largest part of the explanation has to do
with liability. They don't want anyone putting true 8mm high pressure
ammunition into a 7.92mm bore, and blowing himself up.
That and American shooters tend to think in English rather than metric
sizes. We like .308, whereas the rest of the world likes 7.62x51.
# What to do?
# Handload or buy European ammo, free from SAAMI wimpiness:
# http://www.norma.cc/sida/eng/jakt/sortiment/sortimenthoger.asp?Kaliber=26
The factory ammo that I've been shooting in it is Sellier & Bellot.
AP
200...@gmail.com
rifle(maybe that was the thought at the time)since there was no reason
to develop it further
seems the only nazi cartrige that caught on is the 9mm
i personally think the 8mm could take down an elephant it is a very
powerful cartrige and i'm not sure but it could be that my surplus
ammo is getting more potent as time marches on
it makes about the same size divot in my thick steel plate as my 50 bmg
(my 50 leaves the steel core the 8mm leaves an empty crater about the
size of a marble
David R. Birch
200...@gmail.com wrote:
# could it be becasue nobody wants to be out hunting with some damn
# nazi rifle(maybe that was the thought at the time)since there was
# no reason to develop it further
Lots of 8mm Mausers were made before the rise of the Third Reich, and
lots of these came to this country after WWII and were used for
hunting in their original caliber. The US 8mm ammo is reduced in power
because some early German military rifles are not safe with later full
power loads.
#
# seems the only nazi cartrige that caught on is the 9mm
9mm Parabellum dates from about 1906 with the adoption of the Luger by
the Imperial German Navy, long before Nazi scum showed up.
#
# i personally think the 8mm could take down an elephant it is a very
# powerful cartrige and i'm not sure but it could be that my
# surplus ammo is getting more potent as time marches on
Which means it's becoming more dangerous to fire, maybe?
#
# it makes about the same size divot in my thick steel plate as my 50
# bmg (my 50 leaves the steel core the 8mm leaves an empty crater
# about the size of a marble
Ever shoot one of the 8mm Mauser carbines with military ammo? My
shoulder feels like the steel plate probably does afterward.
David
Alan Petrillo
# 200...@gmail.com wrote:
#
# # could it be becasue nobody wants to be out hunting with some damn
# # nazi rifle(maybe that was the thought at the time)since there was
# # no reason to develop it further
#
# Lots of 8mm Mausers were made before the rise of the Third Reich, and
# lots of these came to this country after WWII and were used for
# hunting in their original caliber. The US 8mm ammo is reduced in power
# because some early German military rifles are not safe with later full
# power loads.
IIRC, that would be the difference between the J bore and the JS bore.
J=.318, and JS=.323. .323 bullet in .318 bore = high pressure.
It's industrial strength ass covering on the part of American ammunition
manufacturers.
# # seems the only nazi cartrige that caught on is the 9mm
#
# 9mm Parabellum dates from about 1906 with the adoption of the Luger by
# the Imperial German Navy, long before Nazi scum showed up.
I knew it was pre-WWI, but I didn't know it was quite that old.
# # i personally think the 8mm could take down an elephant it is a very
# # powerful cartrige and i'm not sure but it could be that my
# # surplus ammo is getting more potent as time marches on
#
# Which means it's becoming more dangerous to fire, maybe?
If you're using a JS bore rifle in good condition built on a large ring
reciever then it should be safe.
# # it makes about the same size divot in my thick steel plate as my 50
# # bmg (my 50 leaves the steel core the 8mm leaves an empty crater
# # about the size of a marble
#
# Ever shoot one of the 8mm Mauser carbines with military ammo? My
# shoulder feels like the steel plate probably does afterward.
Mine is a full length Turkish Mauser, and it leaves a goose-egg on my
shoulder after a few shots unless I take steps to moderate the recoil.
That steel butt plate _hurts_!
AP
200...@wongfaye.com
# shoulder feels like the steel plate probably does afterward.
i've used nothing but military stuff (from
yugo,romania,turkey,argentina,?)
and by carbine do you consider one of the fr-8 rilfles a carbine or a
standard 98k
i've done both and its about as painful as shooting a m-44 mosin nagant
got to love the metal buttplate
yea the reason are back to the prejudices of the 50s and you know how
reasonable that can be
back when they called them nazi naaa-zees instead of not zee
Jim
# could it be becasue nobody wants to be out hunting with some damn nazi
# rifle(maybe that was the thought at the time)since there was no reason
# to develop it further
#
# seems the only nazi cartrige that caught on is the 9mm
#
# i personally think the 8mm could take down an elephant it is a very
# powerful cartrige and i'm not sure but it could be that my surplus
# ammo is getting more potent as time marches on
#
# it makes about the same size divot in my thick steel plate as my 50 bmg
# (my 50 leaves the steel core the 8mm leaves an empty crater about the
# size of a marble
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some guy named Bell (don't remember his first name) had/has killed more
elephants than any one else. His rifle of choice 7X57 mm Mauser.
Jim
# # Ever shoot one of the 8mm Mauser carbines with military ammo? My
# # shoulder feels like the steel plate probably does afterward.
#
# i've used nothing but military stuff (from
# yugo,romania,turkey,argentina,?)
# and by carbine do you consider one of the fr-8 rilfles a carbine or a
# standard 98k
# i've done both and its about as painful as shooting a m-44 mosin nagant
#
# got to love the metal buttplate
#
# yea the reason are back to the prejudices of the 50s and you know how
# reasonable that can be
#
# back when they called them nazi naaa-zees instead of not zee
I don't know about the 8X57 mm mausers but the little 7X57 mm mauser is
a sweet shooting machine. I didn't think their muzzle blast was
excessive and the recoil was light to moderate. Was pretty accurate too.
Like I said sweet shooting.
Alan Petrillo
# 200...@wongfaye.com wrote:
# # # Ever shoot one of the 8mm Mauser carbines with military ammo? My
# # # shoulder feels like the steel plate probably does afterward.
# #
# # i've used nothing but military stuff (from
# # yugo,romania,turkey,argentina,?)
# # and by carbine do you consider one of the fr-8 rilfles a carbine or a
# # standard 98k
# # i've done both and its about as painful as shooting a m-44 mosin nagant
# #
# # got to love the metal buttplate
# #
# # yea the reason are back to the prejudices of the 50s and you know how
# # reasonable that can be
# #
# # back when they called them nazi naaa-zees instead of not zee
#
# I don't know about the 8X57 mm mausers but the little 7X57 mm mauser is
# a sweet shooting machine. I didn't think their muzzle blast was
# excessive and the recoil was light to moderate. Was pretty accurate too.
#
# Like I said sweet shooting.
I had one several years ago, but it was a POJ. It was an 1895 Spanish
Mauser built on a CETME reciever, and I couldn't hit the broad side of a
barn from the inside with it. Turned out it was out of headspace. It
swallowed the no-go. From what I understand the metal in the CETME
recievers was too soft, and they were subject to setback problems. It
has now been retired to wall-hanger status.
It's a shame, really, because IMHO the 7x57 is just about perfect for
deer.
AP