The forgotten Shotgun Action, The Side by Side Double Barrel
browningh...@yahoo.com
manufactures for the last 60 some years. True, in recent times we
have seen Ruger finally bring out a cast steel look alike side by
side, if one can tolerate such things, but the traditional "quality
made" side by side is still very scares these days. I have often
wondered why, as the manufactures have for years been making the very
popular sister gun, the over under, and at prices the average man can
afford if he really wants one.
The side by side has long been used in Europe as "the gun for hunting"
as these people do not believe in wasting ammo with pumps and auto
loaders.
American gun writers are known for perpetuating "double barrel shotgun
myths", such as the "cross shooting myth". The propaganda was so
successful that I have often watched people miss with double guns
because of their own lack of shooting skills and then immediately
claim they must have missed because the cross shot. Of course this
was not true because I had stood with them and often observed their
shooting mistakes, all having nothing to do with cross shooting.
Why do I like the double gun? It is much shorter in overall length
than the pump or auto with the same barrel length and is often much
lighter in weight to boot. The double gun when made to the same
weight as the auto or pump can have much longer barrels and therefore
a much longer sighting radius, so important for those long cornfield
shots on old Mr. Ring-neck. The double gun give us instant choice of
two chokes (with double triggers), something you do not get in the
pump and autoloader. The double gun can be reloaded (with an auto
safety) on the run much quicker than an over-under that must be broken
open to a much steeper angle to reload it. The double's swing is
disturbed much less in its swing on a windy day than any over under
made.
Finally there is the balance, as there is no pump or auto made that
swings and feels so natural like a good side by side , or over under
shotgun. Ask any skeet shooter about that one.
My favorite gauge believe it or not was the 16ga. If made on a 16 ga
frame (not on a .12 ga frame as some U.S. guns were) it looked and
behaved much more gracefully than any 12 ever made and for upland
shooting 1 1/8 charge of no. 5 shot was all it took to bring home a
vest full of Ring Neck Pheasants.
Its interesting to note that years ago some double guns were also
rifled in the last few inches of the muzzle and called "Paradox guns"
as they could fire either ball or shot. So the much later in time
screw in rifled choke was really just an update of an old idea.
Once many, many years ago when hunting winged game I happened upon a
Bear that I wanted to shoot very dearly. Not having brought any slug
loads I simply reached into my pocket (I was using the old style paper
shells back in those halcyon years) and simply cut with my hunting
knife a ring around the base of the paper leaving a few pillars of
paper to hold the shell together as I loaded it. Upon ignition the
case separated propelling the shot charge, paper and all out in one
massive solid charge. Since the range was short it held together long
enough to act much as a slug load would and the results were quite
terminal for the bear. But that was long ago and far away.
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Peter Franks
for a couple of years, and love it.
J Buck
that isn't prohibitively expensive (<$300)
Randy
in an SKB Ithaca 280E 20 ga.. None better for the price. It is a
sweet shooting little gun
Mike Corey
#Why do I like the double gun? It is much
# shorter in overall length than the pump or
# auto with the same barrel length and is often
# much lighter in weight to boot.
A side by side shotgun weighing LESS then a pump? Are you sure about
that?
Sam in Savannah
I don't think anything we say will change your mind regarding the SxS.
However, SxSs are rare as hens teeth on skeet, trap and sporting clays
ranges. If there was an advantage in SxSs, you would definitely see them
out there. SxSs also have more kick and rotate around their axis when
fired, too.
Jim
# The side by side shotgun has been largely forgotten by most
# manufactures for the last 60 some years.
Not really, when Chinese guns were still being imported, side bys were
only being bought up by the Cowboy Action Shooters. Longer barrelled
sporting types were simply not selling in sufficent quantites.
browninghighpow...@yahoo.com wrote:
It is much shorter in overall length
than the pump or auto with the same barrel length and is often much
lighter in weight to boot.
The side by's thin lightweight barrels are prone to dents from rough
field use or a bumpy ride in a pick-up's window gun rack. Bursts and
swelling for obstructions as minor as a large insect such as a moth,
spider webs packed full of dead bugs or simply debris from a gun case.
I'm not writing of damascus barrels but solid steel barrels. Modern
safety practices dictate to always check a barrel for obstructions
before shooting. I can honestly say I'm guilty of forgetting to look
each and every time I shoot.
browninghighpow...@yahoo.com wrote:
simply cut with my hunting
knife a ring around the base of the paper leaving a few pillars of
paper to hold the shell together as I loaded it.
Sounds like an accident waiting to happen!! Certainly you had the good
sense to immediatly check the barrel for obstructions after shooting.
Hopefully whomever reads your post also reads my follow-up. May have
worked back in granpa's day when shells were made of easily torn waxed
paper,seperated easily and had a stiff piece of cardboard crimped
tightly over the wad. I certainly wouldn't be foolish enough to even
consider it unless I was confronted with a life or death situation
with today's tough plastic shotshells. If one is brave (or foolish)
enough to consider it. Do yourself and eyesight a favor if you wish to
remain alive and able bodied, just forget you ever read it!!
browninghighpow...@yahoo.com wrote:
Finally there is the balance, as there is no pump or auto made that
swings and feels so natural like a good side by side , or over under
shotgun.
Ever held Grandpa's goose gun or an old external hammered side-by??
Many were top heavy. In Grandpa's day the average guy couldn't afford
one of the well balanced, astonomically priced, fancy English doubles.
Grandpa had to order his from a Sears catalog. He couldn't take the
time to travel to a big city.
Try holding a reasonably priced Ruger O/U up to your shoulder, look
down the articulate raised rib and be certain to keep your finger off
the trigger and place it upon the tough and durable, 21st century
steel, investment cast receiver. It points as naturally as moving your
eyes upon the target. I'll spend 900, you can spend 20 g's at a London
gun shop and bag your limit as quick as I can.
browninghighpow...@yahoo.com wrote:
Why do I like the double gun?
If you asked me I'd tell you my favorite shotgun is my economically
priced Stevens 311, 12 gauge with modified and full choked barrels. I
purchased it in 1975 for 109.00. Ten dollors more at the time than a
Mossberg pump but still less than the Remington pump. Instant
selection of chokes is what the pawnshop clerk used to sell me on the
Stevens. My 20/20 hindsight still has me yearning for the used
Winchester side-by that was also on the shelf but in all my youthfull
logic I couldn't see paying a few more bucks for a used 20 year old
shotgun when I could buy brand new for less.
When Savage re-organized they dropped the Stevens side-bys. Not
because it wasn't a good quality firearm but simply because they
didn't sell enough to make it economically feasible. If Savage ever
decided to bring the real 311 back and not the Turkish import they
lend their name, I'd snatch one up in a hurry. That is if my 30 year
old side-by should ever quit but in all likelihood the Stevens 311
will out live me by a hundred years.
Jonathan Spencer
browningh...@yahoo.com writes
#The side by side shotgun has been largely forgotten by most
#manufactures for the last 60 some years.
Not on this side of the Atlantic. They're made in Spain, Italy, France,
Germany, Turkey, to name but a few oh, and England. :o) I have several
s/s shotguns from the above. Or did you mean to say "largely forgotten
by most US manufacturers"?
#The side by side has long been used in Europe as "the gun for hunting"
#as these people do not believe in wasting ammo with pumps and auto
#loaders.
Curious thought, that a pump or auto necessarily induce the user to
waste ammo. Bit of a generalisation don't you think?
#American gun writers are known for perpetuating "double barrel shotgun
#myths", such as the "cross shooting myth".
I never realised that there were so many myths about shooting. ;-)
#Why do I like the double gun? It is much shorter in overall length
#than the pump or auto with the same barrel length and is often much
#lighter in weight to boot. The double gun when made to the same
#weight as the auto or pump can have much longer barrels and therefore
#a much longer sighting radius, so important for those long cornfield
#shots on old Mr. Ring-neck.
The length of the barrels doesn't increase the effective range of the
gun. Nor do longer barrels have any relevance to "sighting radius".
Longer barrels might help someone from checking their swing, because of
their greater mass but then the advantage here would be to the heavier
pump/auto gun - wouldn't it? However, history shows that the Churchill
25 shotguns were every bit as effective as guns with 32" barrels. You
should ready Gough Thomas' books, if you can get hold of them.
#The double gun give us instant choice of
#two chokes (with double triggers), something you do not get in the
#pump and autoloader. The double gun can be reloaded (with an auto
#safety) on the run much quicker than an over-under that must be broken
#open to a much steeper angle to reload it. The double's swing is
#disturbed much less in its swing on a windy day than any over under
#made.
You'd have to be in some gale to have wind affect your swing!
#Its interesting to note that years ago some double guns were also
#rifled in the last few inches of the muzzle and called "Paradox guns"
#as they could fire either ball or shot. So the much later in time
#screw in rifled choke was really just an update of an old idea.
I have the complete set of UK patents for ammunition & firearms from
1855 to 1930 (eight volumes) and there's truly little that's new in
shooting. Any given idea may be better executed today, because of more
precise engineering, but few ideas are genuinely new.
--
Jonathan
I was reading a book, 'The History of Glue', couldn't put it down.
-Tim Vine
jadel
# The side by side shotgun has been largely forgotten by most
# manufactures for the last 60 some years. ....
Where do you get such nonsense?
True, in recent times we
# have seen Ruger finally bring out a cast steel look alike side by
# side, if one can tolerate such things,....
Well, there's inane snobbery for you. How do you account for the
many thousands of cheap "hardware store" doubles made back in the
"good old days?" before plasticky, cast iron guns took over?
but the traditional "quality
# made" side by side is still very scares these days. I have often
# wondered why, as the manufactures have for years been making the very
# popular sister gun, the over under, and at prices the average man can
# afford if he really wants one.
#
# The side by side has long been used in Europe as "the gun for hunting"
In Britain and Europe one "shoots" birds, rather than hunting them.
Granted, peasants might "hunt" vermin such as rabbits.
# as these people do not believe in wasting ammo with pumps and auto
# loaders.
You've never been part of an English shooting party, have you? They
burn -plenty- of ammo, and they don't all carry doubles. Somebody
over there is buying a lot of fine Benelli and Beretta pumps and
autos.
The classic double is part of a long, complex Euro and English
shooting tradition which you clearly do not comprehend.
J. Del Col
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Sam A. Kersh
#The S/S definitely has a classic look to it. I believe Stoeger makes one
#that isn't prohibitively expensive (<$300)
Remington and CZ both have SxS shotguns and both offer either double or single
trigger models.
Sam A. Kersh
NRA Patron Member
L.E.A.A. Life member
TSRA Life Member
GOA, JPFO
http://www.flash.net/~csmkersh
================================================
"The pure and simple truth is rarely pure and never
simple."
Oscar Wilde
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jadel
# as these people do not believe in wasting ammo with pumps and auto
# loaders.
What are you talking about? The only "wasted" round is one that
misses. If a person is a good shot, it doesn't make any difference
what type of shotgun he or she uses. If he or she is a poor shot, a
110 grand Purdey SS won't help.
Your ideas about European hunting are naive, at best. Hunting, or in
this case "shooting" is far more restricted than in the US. In some
countries, Germany and Austria, for example, potential hunters must
pass strict qualifying tests. In Britain, generally speaking,
shooting is for an elite and access to guns is severely limited. Are
you suggesting we should impose similar skill, class and legal
restrictions to go along with your penchant for SS doubles?
Euro hunters like combination guns; we don't. Does that make their
choice better? Don't be silly.
J. Del Col
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Hinkle
Then one deer season, after the quail season had opened, I tossed it in the
back of the Jeep, thinking I'd go for quail after the morning deer hunt.
It was so inexpensive, I figured that if it got "lost" out of the back of
the Jeep I wouldn't cry much. And the more beat-up it looked, the better
for CAS.
What and eye-opener. I had mostly shot an O/U at moving targets up 'till
then. The SxS sighting plane made it much easier (for me) to acquire the
proper lead on the birds. I came home with a much greater appreciation of
the SxS.
I have been told that it costs much more to manufacture an SxS than O/U.
I don't understand why but I wish the price of a Beretta Silver Hawk could
come down much closer to the price of an Onyx.
Ralph
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Gunny_2007
"Mike Corey" <AWR7...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:fe5apo$mqn$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# browningh...@yahoo.com wrote:
#
# #Why do I like the double gun? It is much
# # shorter in overall length than the pump or
# # auto with the same barrel length and is often
# # much lighter in weight to boot.
#
# A side by side shotgun weighing LESS then a pump? Are you sure about
# that?
Highly probable. Take a look at what parts are missing from a s/s. The s/s
has basically two barrels hinged to a butt stock. The pumps and autos have
all of those moving parts that account for the extra weight.
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browningh...@yahoo.com
On Oct 5, 8:31 am, Jonathan Spencer <j...@jonathan-spencer.co.uk>
wrote:
# In message <fe3s7n$5h...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
# browninghighpow...@yahoo.com writes
# #The side by side shotgun has been largely forgotten by most
# #manufactures for the last 60 some years.
#
# Not on this side of the Atlantic. They're made in Spain, Italy, France,
# Germany, Turkey, to name but a few oh, and England. :o) I have several
# s/s shotguns from the above. Or did you mean to say "largely forgotten
# by most US manufacturers"?
#
# #The side by side has long been used in Europe as "the gun for hunting"
# #as these people do not believe in wasting ammo with pumps and auto
# #loaders.
#
# Curious thought, that a pump or auto necessarily induce the user to
Ø waste ammo. Bit of a generalisation don't you think?
Response:
Try actually going hunting some time, especially on the first day of
the Ring Neck Pheasant season. Your statement will by then have
evaporated.
#
# #American gun writers are known for perpetuating "double barrel shotgun
# #myths", such as the "cross shooting myth".
#
Ø I never realised that there were so many myths about shooting. ;-)
Response:
Yes, that is the point of the post, to educate.
#
# #Why do I like the double gun? It is much shorter in overall length
# #than the pump or auto with the same barrel length and is often much
# #lighter in weight to boot. The double gun when made to the same
# #weight as the auto or pump can have much longer barrels and therefore
# #a much longer sighting radius, so important for those long cornfield
# #shots on old Mr. Ring-neck.
#
# The length of the barrels doesn't increase the effective range of the
# gun. Nor do longer barrels have any relevance to "sighting radius".
Ø >
Response:
I strongly suggest you actually take up trap shooting. You will find
very few short barrel guns on the line and for good reason , they do
not win period. Many years ago we a had a "YOUNG NIMROD" suddenly
materialize in our mist. He boldly announced he was going to clean
house with his short barreled shotgun. His statement was met with
polite smirks at the club house. After the relays were finished a
very red faced Nimrod suddenly vaporized and was never seen again, at
least not at our club house.
Longer barrels might help someone from checking their swing, because
of
# their greater mass but then the advantage here would be to the heavier
# pump/auto gun - wouldn't it? However, history shows that the Churchill
# 25 shotguns were every bit as effective as guns with 32" barrels. You
should ready Gough Thomas' books, if you can get hold of them.
Response:
You ignore the balance factor. Anyone who has actively engaged in
competition knows that the double gun or over under is quicker to the
shoulder and swings much more naturally than the pump or auto which I
can best describe as feeling much more club like and unnatural when in
full swing. When shooting both guns which are the same weight and
length the double or over under has a more muzzle heavy feel to it
while the pump or auto has its weight more to the rear where the
action is located because of the greater weight of the pump or auto in
this area.
I again refer you to short barrel guns just not winning when shots
are long as found both on the trap range and in Duck hunting. You
will not find many short barreled duck guns that bring home as much
game as the long barreled guns. As a matter of fact one of the best
know duck hunters of all time "Nash Buckingham" (see "The Shootingest
Gentelman") tells in no uncertain terms which guns he used (the double
gun, "Old Bo Wop") and the long barrels he had put on them, all custom
made to his specifications.
#
# #The double gun give us instant choice of
# #two chokes (with double triggers), something you do not get in the
# #pump and autoloader. The double gun can be reloaded (with an auto
# #safety) on the run much quicker than an over-under that must be broken
# #open to a much steeper angle to reload it. The double's swing is
# #disturbed much less in its swing on a windy day than any over under
# #made.
#
Ø You'd have to be in some gale to have wind affect your swing!
Ø
Response:
I suggest you actually try skeet shooting some time or shoot at
Pheasants on a windy day when in a slightly unbalanced pose when they
rocket out from underneath you at an odd angle. Believe me your swing
will be affected.
#
# #Its interesting to note that years ago some double guns were also
# #rifled in the last few inches of the muzzle and called "Paradox guns"
# #as they could fire either ball or shot. So the much later in time
# #screw in rifled choke was really just an update of an old idea.
#
# I have the complete set of UK patents for ammunition & firearms from
# 1855 to 1930 (eight volumes) and there's truly little that's new in
# shooting. Any given idea may be better executed today, because of more
Ø precise engineering, but few ideas are genuinely new.
Response, I would suggest you strip down a "classic double gun" and
then a modern made cast iron one like a Ruger. You will be looking
for that "so called" precise engineering well into the 22nd ,23rd and
24th centurys. I have seen the "precise engineering" of the Ruger
over under's often fail to completely eject spent cases. Never had
that problem with the older "hand built" "quality guns". You know the
ones made of "old fashioned forgings" and "had old fashioned hand
fitting", now that's what I would call "real precision manufacture",
not some modern made weapon that has MIM castings , cast and then
thrown right into the receiver.
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browningh...@yahoo.com
On Oct 5, 3:31 pm, jadel <delco...@mail.ab.edu> wrote:
# On Oct 4, 7:16 pm, browninghighpow...@yahoo.com wrote:
# # The side by side shotgun has been largely forgotten by most
# # manufactures for the last 60 some years. ....
#
Ø Where do you get such nonsense?
One simply looks at the market availability. Its there for all to
see, here in the U.S. It has only been in the last several years after
an almost complete absence that we have Ruger making a double barrel.
Remington has made them off an on for brief periods of time. All
others to my knowledge are actually imported with the American name on
them such as the Weatherby's, Kimbers etc. Their availability, being
imported, is often sporadic at best and they are not as common as the
ubiquitous pumps and autos that "clog" the gun dealers shelves. Much
of the imported doubles seem to appear and disappear as fast as the
hunters change their socks.
#
# True, in recent times we
# # have seen Ruger finally bring out a cast steel look alike side by
# # side, if one can tolerate such things,....
#
# Well, there's inane snobbery for you. How do you account for the
# many thousands of cheap "hardware store" doubles made back in the
Ø "good old days?" before plasticky, cast iron guns took over?
Response:
You so called statement about "cheap double barrels" in many years
past, have actually had a lot more hand work in them than any modern
made "cast Ruger does" . I might also add that they were not made of
cheap castings either. No, they were not top of the line guns, but
they did work, unlike the new Rugers I have seen. I have seen the
Ruger over unders fail to eject many times. I have seen them stiff to
break open. I have seen trigger malfunctions. I have seen the "sold
called older cheap" doubles work much more reliably.
#
# but the traditional "quality
# # made" side by side is still very scares these days. I have often
# # wondered why, as the manufactures have for years been making the very
# # popular sister gun, the over under, and at prices the average man can
# # afford if he really wants one.
# #
# # The side by side has long been used in Europe as "the gun for hunting"
#
Ø In Britain and Europe one "shoots" birds, rather than hunting them.
Response:
Your statement reflects your different cultural out look. I believe
your post mentioned that " I was a snob"?
#
# Granted, peasants might "hunt" vermin such as rabbits.
#
# # as these people do not believe in wasting ammo with pumps and auto
# # loaders.
#
# You've never been part of an English shooting party, have you? They
# burn -plenty- of ammo, and they don't all carry doubles. Somebody
# over there is buying a lot of fine Benelli and Beretta pumps and
# autos.
#
# The classic double is part of a long, complex Euro and English
Ø shooting tradition which you clearly do not comprehend.
Response:
I comprehend it very well, why else would I use them?
browningh...@yahoo.com
On Oct 5, 8:31 am, Jonathan Spencer <j...@jonathan-spencer.co.uk>
wrote:
# In message <fe3s7n$5h...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
# browninghighpow...@yahoo.com writes
# #The side by side shotgun has been largely forgotten by most
# #manufactures for the last 60 some years.
#
# Not on this side of the Atlantic. They're made in Spain, Italy, France,
# Germany, Turkey, to name but a few oh, and England. :o) I have several
# s/s shotguns from the above. Or did you mean to say "largely forgotten
Ř by most US manufacturers"?
Response: You answered your own question. "U.S. Manufacture" not
foreign.
I forgot to mention that quick to the shoulder not only applied to the
double shotgun versus pump shotgun but in big game hunting the
"Parodox Gun" and the Double Rifle were often preferred to the Bolt
Action Rifle because of the quickness to the shoulder they afforded
the hunter.
The safety "location" on the double shotgun and double rifle also had
the "quickness advantage". The parallel between the shotguns and
rifles is quite clear as to the handling advantages in the field of
the double over the pump shot guns and bolt rifle guns.
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browningh...@yahoo.com
On Oct 5, 8:31 am, Jim <zivendine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
# On Oct 4, 4:16 pm, browninghighpow...@yahoo.com wrote:
# # The side by side shotgun has been largely forgotten by most
# # manufactures for the last 60 some years.
#
#
# The side by's thin lightweight barrels are prone to dents from rough
# field use or a bumpy ride in a pick-up's window gun rack. Bursts and
# swelling for obstructions as minor as a large insect such as a moth,
# spider webs packed full of dead bugs or simply debris from a gun case.
# I'm not writing of damascus barrels but solid steel barrels. Modern
# safety practices dictate to always check a barrel for obstructions
# before shooting. I can honestly say I'm guilty of forgetting to look
Ø each and every time I shoot.
Response:
The newer made double guns with the screw in chokes (which I detest)
necessitated a thickening of the double guns barrels, which of course
makes the gun much heavier to carry and use in the field. As with
everything there is a plus and a minus to it. I by the way, take very
good care of my doubles, and I have yet to put a dent in any of them.
The thin barrels were put on them for a very good reason, it saved a
lot of weight when carrying them up hill and down dale and when you
are older this is a very great asset.
#
# browninghighpow...@yahoo.com wrote:
#
# simply cut with my hunting
# knife a ring around the base of the paper leaving a few pillars of
# paper to hold the shell together as I loaded it.
#
# Sounds like an accident waiting to happen!! Certainly you had the good
# sense to immediatly check the barrel for obstructions after shooting.
# Hopefully whomever reads your post also reads my follow-up. May have
# worked back in granpa's day when shells were made of easily torn waxed
# paper,seperated easily and had a stiff piece of cardboard crimped
# tightly over the wad. I certainly wouldn't be foolish enough to even
# consider it unless I was confronted with a life or death situation
# with today's tough plastic shotshells. If one is brave (or foolish)
# enough to consider it. Do yourself and eyesight a favor if you wish to
# remain alive and able bodied, just forget you ever read it!!
#
Ø browninghighpow...@yahoo.com wrote:
RESPONSE:
If you noticed on my post I specifically mentions that they were
indeed "PAPER SHELLS, NOT PLASTIC".
#
# Finally there is the balance, as there is no pump or auto made that
# swings and feels so natural like a good side by side , or over under
# shotgun.
#
#
# If you asked me I'd tell you my favorite shotgun is my economically
# priced Stevens 311, 12 gauge with modified and full choked barrels. I
# purchased it in 1975 for 109.00. Ten dollors more at the time than a
# Mossberg pump but still less than the Remington pump. Instant
# selection of chokes is what the pawnshop clerk used to sell me on the
# Stevens. My 20/20 hindsight still has me yearning for the used
# Winchester side-by that was also on the shelf but in all my youthfull
# logic I couldn't see paying a few more bucks for a used 20 year old
Ø shotgun when I could buy brand new for less.
Ø
Response:
That "old used Winchester double gun" you passed up is now worth many
times what a "modern Mossberg" is worth.
#
# When Savage re-organized they dropped the Stevens side-bys. Not
# because it wasn't a good quality firearm but simply because they
# didn't sell enough to make it economically feasible. If Savage ever
# decided to bring the real 311 back and not the Turkish import they
# lend their name, I'd snatch one up in a hurry. That is if my 30 year
# old side-by should ever quit but in all likelihood the Stevens 311
Ø will out live me by a hundred years.
Response:
I agree partly with you but the other part of the story is that the
profit margin was lowered because of increased labor cost. I rather
suspect this was the determining factory that led Savage to
discontinue the gun because there have always been a very loyal
following for the double gun here in the U.S. When you observe some
of the specialty items some gun manufactures make that has a way lower
market than the double shotgun the belief that no one wanted them
holds very little water so to speak.
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browningh...@yahoo.com
I don't think anything we say will change your mind regarding the
SxS.
However, SxSs are rare as hens teeth on skeet, trap and sporting
clays
ranges. If there was an advantage in SxSs, you would definitely see
them
out there. SxSs also have more kick and rotate around their axis
when
fired, too.
Response:
In years past the double gun actually ruled the trap ranges and one of
the most famous of all trap shooters used it, Annie Oakley. She had
no trouble wining with one.
Of course today the advantages of today's recoil reducing guns cannot
be ignored but in years past they simply added weight to the existing
gun.
Its still the old saying "you cannot have your cake and eat it too",
in other words you can shoot the over under or single barrel break
open trap gun with its superior balance and swing or you can use a
"long action gas operated gun" that has softer recoil.
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browningh...@yahoo.com
browninghighpow...@yahoo.com wrote:
#Why do I like the double gun? It is much
# shorter in overall length than the pump or
# auto with the same barrel length and is often
# much lighter in weight to boot.
A side by side shotgun weighing LESS then a pump? Are you sure about
that?
Response:
European double gun makers have made very light double shotguns for
many years often in the 6 lb and less range, some as light as 5 ½
lbs. I could be wrong but I do you know of any auto gun that is that
light with the "same length barrels". Right now I cannot think of
any. To accomplish this you would have to start at least with an
aluminum receiver such as found in such guns as the Mossber 500 and
make the barrel much shorter than the double gun would have.
In other words comparing apples to apples and having a pump gun with
a steel receiver and also with the same length barrel and you end up
with the pump gun weighing much more than the corresponding double gun
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browningh...@yahoo.com
On Oct 5, 3:32 pm, "Sam A. Kersh" <csmke...@flash.net> wrote:
# On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:30:24 +0000 (UTC), jbuc...@webtv.net (J Buck) wrote:
#
# #The S/S definitely has a classic look to it. I believe Stoeger makes one
# #that isn't prohibitively expensive (<$300)
#
# Remington and CZ both have SxS shotguns and both offer either double or single
# trigger models.
#
Yes, I have read the write ups on the CZ double guns but I like the
Kimber better but the cost is quite a bit more too. You get what you
pay for.
I did look at the Remington, but it was not my cup of tea, few
Remingtons are.
It is refreshing to know that for the first time in years there is at
least an attempt to bring back the double gun in U.S. manufactured
shotguns. The problem as always been that with foreign made firearms
parts are often expensive , or hard to get, or often discontinued.
But I must admit with a quality made double they last for many, many
years.
oldpink
# Yes,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I agree. I found a jewel a couple of years ago
# in an SKB Ithaca 280E 20 ga.. None better for the price. It is a
# sweet shooting little gun
Make sure to send me that Parker Invincible you found in that steamer trunk.
Oops! Did I just say that?
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
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200...@gmail.com
they arent forgotten they have just gotten the stigma of being too
hillbilly
Jonathan Spencer
browningh...@yahoo.com writes
#On Oct 5, 8:31 am, Jonathan Spencer <j...@jonathan-spencer.co.uk>
#wrote:
## Curious thought, that a pump or auto necessarily induce the user to
#Ø waste ammo. Bit of a generalisation don't you think?
#
#Response:
#Try actually going hunting some time, especially on the first day of
#the Ring Neck Pheasant season. Your statement will by then have
#evaporated.
You are blaming the tool, when you ought blame the user. If someone
fires excessive shots, it isn't the gun that makes him do it any more
than owning a car capable of 150mph >makes< the driver in excess of the
speed limit. Or >would you< hold the car responsible?
## #American gun writers are known for perpetuating "double barrel shotgun
## #myths", such as the "cross shooting myth".
##
#Ø I never realised that there were so many myths about shooting. ;-)
#
#Response:
#Yes, that is the point of the post, to educate.
I take a different view. You post seldom, if ever, educate anyone but
rather are a means for you to express your, often narrow, opinions and
to illustrate the limits of your knowledge, e.g. that Ruger shotguns are
made from "cast iron".
#The double gun when made to the same
## #weight as the auto or pump can have much longer barrels and therefore
## #a much longer sighting radius, so important for those long cornfield
## #shots on old Mr. Ring-neck.
##
## The length of the barrels doesn't increase the effective range of the
## gun. Nor do longer barrels have any relevance to "sighting radius".
#I strongly suggest you actually take up trap shooting. You will find
#very few short barrel guns on the line and for good reason
Nor will you find s/s double shotguns, which is what we were discussing.
The length of the barrels on a s/s shotgun has no relevance to sighting
radius since once views along the rib with both eyes open, not by lining
up a rear and a front sight using just one eye. Though having said
that, perhaps you do.
#, they do
#not win period. Many years ago we a had a "YOUNG NIMROD" suddenly
#materialize in our mist. He boldly announced he was going to clean
#house with his short barreled shotgun. His statement was met with
#polite smirks at the club house. After the relays were finished a
#very red faced Nimrod suddenly vaporized and was never seen again, at
#least not at our club house.
A young Nimrod, one presumes, would be an inexperienced shot? Which
means that he probably wouldn't have shot well regardless what gun he
used. But you blame his choice of gun if you wish, your anecdote really
doesn't matter as it proves nothing.
#Longer barrels might help someone from checking their swing, because
#of
## their greater mass but then the advantage here would be to the heavier
## pump/auto gun - wouldn't it? However, history shows that the Churchill
## 25 shotguns were every bit as effective as guns with 32" barrels. You
#should ready Gough Thomas' books, if you can get hold of them.
#You ignore the balance factor.
No I don't. I've used s/s shotguns with 24", 28" and 32" barrels. The
longer barrels maintain swing better.
#Anyone who has actively engaged in
#competition knows that the double gun or over under is quicker to the
#shoulder and swings much more naturally than the pump or auto
You don't need to shoot competitively to know that. I no longer own
anything other than double and single-barrel shotguns. I have owned
self-loaders (autoto you) but prefer the s/s double (although I have o/u
as well).
And that what it boils down to, personal preference. If someone prefers
a pump or an auto that's fine by me. They aren't 'wrong', they haven't
made a 'mistake' and they do not need to be 'educated'. They have their
preferences, you have your preferences, and I have mine. Each to his
own.
# I again refer you to short barrel guns just not winning when shots
#are long as found both on the trap range and in Duck hunting.
The Churchill 25 to which I referred is a >game< gun, as are all s/s
shotguns of that type. You wouldn't encounter them on the trap range,
and more than you'd find a Roll Royce on a 4x4 rally. As a game gun,
the Churchill is not handicapped compared to longer barrel shotguns.
The longer barrels (32") are a hang over from black powder days.
#The double's swing is
## #disturbed much less in its swing on a windy day than any over under
## #made.
##
#Ø You'd have to be in some gale to have wind affect your swing!
#I suggest you actually try skeet shooting some time or shoot at
#Pheasants on a windy day when in a slightly unbalanced pose when they
#rocket out from underneath you at an odd angle. Believe me your swing
#will be affected.
If the wind is sufficient to push your barrels, then it will be having a
much greater affect upon your body. The point you try to make,
therefore, is spurious.
## #Its interesting to note that years ago some double guns were also
## #rifled in the last few inches of the muzzle and called "Paradox guns"
## #as they could fire either ball or shot. So the much later in time
## #screw in rifled choke was really just an update of an old idea.
##
## I have the complete set of UK patents for ammunition & firearms from
## 1855 to 1930 (eight volumes) and there's truly little that's new in
## shooting. Any given idea may be better executed today, because of more
#Ø precise engineering, but few ideas are genuinely new.
#
#Response, I would suggest you strip down a "classic double gun" and
#then a modern made cast iron one like a Ruger.
Would you consider an AYA No 4 to be a classic double gun? Oh, and the
Ruger is not made from cast iron. The fireplace in my fathers 1860
house is made from cast iron, but the Ruger is not.
#You will be looking
#for that "so called" precise engineering well into the 22nd ,23rd and
#24th centurys. I have seen the "precise engineering" of the Ruger
#over under's often fail to completely eject spent cases. Never had
#that problem with the older "hand built" "quality guns".
Ah yes, back to beating your favourite drum I see.
# You know the
#ones made of "old fashioned forgings" and "had old fashioned hand
#fitting", now that's what I would call "real precision manufacture",
#not some modern made weapon that has MIM castings , cast and then
#thrown right into the receiver.
Well, by definition, it >isn't< precision engineering. It imprecise
engineering that has to be hand fitted with the result that the parts
from one gun are not interchangeable with another.
--
Jonathan
I was reading a book, 'The History of Glue', couldn't put it down.
-Tim Vine
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oldpink
[...]
# The safety "location" on the double shotgun and double rifle also had
# the "quickness advantage". The parallel between the shotguns and
# rifles is quite clear as to the handling advantages in the field of
# the double over the pump shot guns and bolt rifle guns.
Uh, BHP, I do believe that you overlooked the main reason that you don't
see many upper end SxS shotguns out there, that little expense factor.
I haven't perused the auction sites for gun prices, but I would venture
that a decent Parker Trojan would set you back at least $10K, while a
top grade mint L.C. Smith might command perhaps more still.
Oh, and that's not even taking into account the REAL pinnacle of SxS
shotguns, the six figure three year waiting list artisan constructed
pieces by the likes of Holland & Holland and Purdey.
Sorry to say, but most of us just don't have even $1K for a shotgun, let
alone THAT kind of cash.
Yeah, we ALL wish we could have a nice Parker or L.C. Smith, but there
are other priorities in life that will inevitably displace that pipe dream.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
oldpink
# On Oct 5, 3:32 pm, "Sam A. Kersh" <csmke...@flash.net> wrote:
# # On Fri, 5 Oct 2007 12:30:24 +0000 (UTC), jbuc...@webtv.net (J Buck) wrote:
# #
# # #The S/S definitely has a classic look to it. I believe Stoeger makes one
# #
# # Remington and CZ both have SxS shotguns and both offer either double or single
# #
#
# pay for.
#
# I did look at the Remington, but it was not my cup of tea, few
# Remingtons are.
#
# It is refreshing to know that for the first time in years there is at
# least an attempt to bring back the double gun in U.S. manufactured
# shotguns. The problem as always been that with foreign made firearms
# parts are often expensive , or hard to get, or often discontinued.
# But I must admit with a quality made double they last for many, many
# years.
As far as I know, Remington does indeed still have a U.S. made SxS, and
there is that OTHER manufacturer that you berate so much.
What was it? Oh yeah, the Gold Label.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
oldpink
[...]
# # You know the
# #ones made of "old fashioned forgings" and "had old fashioned hand
# #fitting", now that's what I would call "real precision manufacture",
# #not some modern made weapon that has MIM castings , cast and then
# #thrown right into the receiver.
#
# Well, by definition, it >isn't< precision engineering. It imprecise
# engineering that has to be hand fitted with the result that the parts
# from one gun are not interchangeable with another.
And all this time, I had read that one of the very first areas of
manufacture to use mass produced parts was gun making.
I was unaware that parts requiring extensive hand fitting to the point
that they lack interchangeability with other guns of the same model was
somehow a virtue.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
browningh...@yahoo.com
And all this time, I had read that one of the very first areas of
manufacture to use mass produced parts was gun making.
I was unaware that parts requiring extensive hand fitting to the
point
that they lack interchangeability with other guns of the same model
was
somehow a virtue.
--
shotguns, both hand fitted to their physic and hand fitted parts to
the gun. I would not call a custom hand fitted shotgun imprecise by
any means. As a matter of fact even when talking pistols and rifles
the custom guns have hand fitted triggers or custom made had fitted
triggers
If you are talking slap them together mass produced guns, the yes you
can have slop interchangeability of parts but that is the type of
weapon that is not in the same class as an expensive hand fitted
prestige weapon either.
Example: Slop fitted WWII G.I. 1911. v/s hand fitted National Match
gun. Engineering has not reached the point where you can get a very
accurate gun and with a fine trigger pull, or in shotguns with a rich
luster hand rubbed stock finish and bluing in a production line slop
weapon. This is very true in shotguns as well.