Mosin update

[B R U C E]

Thanks for the Cosmo clean up tips. Worked great.

Got it cleaned up and went to the range with 147gr steel core surplus
(great deal), 174gr Silver Bear and 203gr Silver Bear new manufacture
ammo.

With the 147 and 174 grainers I was shootin 4" groups at 50 yds with
iron sights and 8-9 inchers at 100. A wee bit better with the 203's
ironically with less recoil. I was very happy with the results. I have
no doubt that I could half those at those ranges and duplicate or better
them results at 3 or even 400 yds with a scope.

2 Questions:

Question 1, has anyone here ever scoped one and if so what would you
recommend.

Question 2. Does anyone know what the rifling is on this thing. Looks
like 1 in 1" or so. Bore looks like machine screw threads.

BTW.... sucker kicks like an Army Mule but I guess that's to be expected
with rifling like that pushing a 147-174 gr projectile at 2800 fps with
2600 ft lbs of energy.

I'm confident that any North American game (2 or 4 legged) would drop
like a rock.

If you like to shoot get one of these suckers for about $100.

Fun, Fun, Fun

Now I gotta get an AK...8^)


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[Gerald "Brick" Brickwood]

Get one of those nice cleaning rods with a swivel handle and a well fitting
bore brush.

Insert the rod from the muzzle and screw on the brush. Then pull the
rod/brush combo out of the bore but just until you feel resistance where the
brush hits the rifling.

Mark top dead center of the rod and also mark the rod transversely at the
muzzle crown. Now pull the rod out, allowing the rod to swivel in the
handle as the brush follows the rifling until the top dead center mark
returns to top dead center. Mark the rod transversely at the crown again.
Now remove the rod and measure the distance between the two transverse marks
and you now know 1 turn = that distance.

Your measurements will only be as good as you are careful and as precise as
your measuring equipment allows. But, they shall be better than any
"scientific wild guesses" you can get here.

[jer...@rochester.rr.com]

They make a cleaning rod that can rotate inside
the handle so it can revolve with the rifling.
Insert the cleaning rod (with a cotton patch) into the barrel a few inches.
Mark the top of the cleaning rod with a marking pen.
Measure the distance from the barrel to the handle and write the number
down.
Slowly push the rod into the barrel until it revolves once and the mark is
on top again.
Measure from the barrel to the handle again.
The difference in measurement is the number of inches per revolution.
You can do this a couple of times to check your accuracy.
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BTW.... sucker kicks like an Army Mule but I guess that's to be expected
with rifling like that pushing a 147-174 gr projectile at 2800 fps with
2600 ft lbs of energy<<<<<<<<<<

They may make a muzzle brake for your gun.
If so, get one and install it.
It will make a difference.

--
JerryD(upstateNY)

[Bob Holtzman]

On 2012-05-18, B R U C E <BAK...@webtv.net> wrote:
# Thanks for the Cosmo clean up tips. Worked great.
#
# Got it cleaned up and went to the range with 147gr steel core surplus
# (great deal), 174gr Silver Bear and 203gr Silver Bear new manufacture
# ammo.
#
# With the 147 and 174 grainers I was shootin 4" groups at 50 yds with
# iron sights and 8-9 inchers at 100. A wee bit better with the 203's
# ironically with less recoil. I was very happy with the results. I have
# no doubt that I could half those at those ranges and duplicate or better
# them results at 3 or even 400 yds with a scope.

Even halving them, assuming you're shooting off of a rest, those groups
indicate that:

1. the gun is a piece of crap

2. your eyesight is bad

3. you can't shoot

#
# 2 Questions:
#
# Question 1, has anyone here ever scoped one and if so what would you
# recommend.
#
# Question 2. Does anyone know what the rifling is on this thing. Looks
# like 1 in 1" or so. Bore looks like machine screw threads.

Check it again. Use a cleaning rod with a tight fitting patch. Measure
the distance it takes to make one revolution. It won't be 1"!

#
# BTW.... sucker kicks like an Army Mule but I guess that's to be expected
# with rifling like that pushing a 147-174 gr projectile at 2800 fps with
# 2600 ft lbs of energy.
#
# I'm confident that any North American game (2 or 4 legged) would drop
# like a rock.

Sure thing. Why Hell, my .32 ACP shoots absolutely flat out to 1000 yds
and shoots .250 inch diameter groups at that distance. It will reliably
take Alaskan brown bear at 500 yds. Drops 'em like a rock every time.

What are you smoking, boy, and can I get some?

[B R U C E]

Well Bob, I'd like to see what you could do off hand at 100 yards with
iron sights that about cover the target. I think 7-8" with various ammo
is a good first day at the range.

Do you really expect ANYONE to believe that your .32acp shoots flat out
to a 1000 yards and prints 1/4" groups. Now who's smokin what.

You couldn't drop a rabbit at 500 yards with a .32acp (can you say
ballistics). You couldn't drop an Alaskan Brown Bear at 10 yards with
it.

Your .32acp doesn't shoot "flat" for 50 yards. In fact the only way that
round would reach 1000 yards would be if you carried it over there and
dropped it. At that range with a 71gr bullet at 900 fps it would be
4827.49 inches low and have 18 ft/lbs of energy. It would be moving at
311fps. At 500 yards it would be 741 inches low (that's a 61 foot
holdover) have 46 ft/lbs of energy and be moving at 538 fps. Hardly a
Bear killer.

1/4 inch at 1000 yards... be serious.

No way you can compare a (7.52x54) 174 grain projectile leaving the
muzzle at 2800fps with 2600 ft lbs of energy with a puny (.32acp) 71
grainer traveling at about 900 fps with 130 ft lbs of energy.

Have you ever actually ever fired a gun Bob?

[Bob Holtzman]

On 2012-05-19, B R U C E <BAK...@webtv.net> wrote:
# Well Bob, I'd like to see what you could do off hand at 100 yards with
# iron sights that about cover the target. I think 7-8" with various ammo
# is a good first day at the range.

Well, B R U C E, I believe you missed the part of my post that said
"assuming you're shooting from a rest...". You really need to read
*all* the post.

In reply to your statement however, a reasonably experienced offhand
(one word) shooter will usually be able to shoot a 2"-4" group at 100
yds with iron sights. I know because I did it for quite a few years
before arthritis took it's toll and I had to stop shooting. As far as
the sights covering the target, ask an experienced 1000 yd competitor
what a "frame hold" is.

#
# Do you really expect ANYONE to believe that your .32acp shoots flat out
# to a 1000 yards and prints 1/4" groups. Now who's smokin what.
#
# You couldn't drop a rabbit at 500 yards with a .32acp (can you say
# ballistics). You couldn't drop an Alaskan Brown Bear at 10 yards with
# it.
#
# Your .32acp doesn't shoot "flat" for 50 yards. In fact the only way that
# round would reach 1000 yards would be if you carried it over there and
# dropped it. At that range with a 71gr bullet at 900 fps it would be
# 4827.49 inches low and have 18 ft/lbs of energy. It would be moving at
# 311fps. At 500 yards it would be 741 inches low (that's a 61 foot
# holdover) have 46 ft/lbs of energy and be moving at 538 fps. Hardly a
# Bear killer.
#
# 1/4 inch at 1000 yards... be serious.
#
# No way you can compare a (7.52x54) 174 grain projectile leaving the
# muzzle at 2800fps with 2600 ft lbs of energy with a puny (.32acp) 71
# grainer traveling at about 900 fps with 130 ft lbs of energy.

Have trouble recognizing sarcasm when you see it, do you?

#
# Have you ever actually ever fired a gun Bob?

/horn tooting/
As a matter of fact I have fired a gun once or twice....for 50+ years as
a smallbore prone and position competitor. Got good enough (or lucky
enough) to pick up 3-4 state championships, a distinguished rating, a
National Intermediate Championship at Camp Perry, and a boat load of
other stuff.
/horn tooting/

Any questions, B R U C E?


--
Bob Holtzman

[clarkm...@gmail.com]

# Question 1, has anyone here ever scoped one and if so what would you

# recommend.

I like a TIG welded bolt handle.
I like to pull the barrel from the receiver and drill and tap for a $30 ATI scope mount with a third hole drilled and countersunk per this sketch I drew:

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/extrahole.jpg

I have tried a lot of home made scope mounting systems for the Mosin Nagant, but the ATI is a good cheap product.

[penultimate]

More or less in agreement with Bob, I think if you are happy with minute of dinner plate
accuracy at 100 yards, especially if you are shooting from a rested position, then you are
really more interested in the noise than the shooting. Pretty much this means you have a
problem with your rifle, or the ammunition, or your shooting. And, for the record, duplicating
these results at 400 yards is about good enough to reliably hit a Volkswagen - assuming no breeze.

From a rest, with a "good" Mosin, and with proper bullets, I would expect amediocre shooter
with normal vision to do much better than this with issue iron sights. If your Mosin was one
of the Finnish reworks, I would expect sub 2 MOA groups. If your Mosin was run of the mill
Russian, I would expect roughly 3 MOA groups. A particularly good shot with young eyes would
do a bit better, even from a rest, With a quality scope, I would expect group size to fall by
about 30% for the mediocre shooter.

With the quality of scope generally bought by somebody excited about a $100 rifle, I doubt
that improvement alone would improve your groups any at all. So save your money on the scope,
at least until you have sorted out what might be the problems with your rifle, ammo, or shooting
first.

Assuming the bore in your Mosin "looks" reasonably good, the good news is that ammo can be a
big factor in these rifles. This is for two reasons which is not just the "usual" reloader BS.
First, if you are shooting surplus, most of it is better than 60 years old, was loaded during
the urgency of WWII and was not match grade in the first place. And if your ammo is new "soviet
commercial", its pretty cheap stuff.

Second, and this is the important part, Mosin bores are notoriously variable in groove dimensions
(310 to 314 being the typical range). Your improved cylinder groups might be because you are
using commercial ammo with 308 bullets (as some is) and it is rattling down the bore of a Mosin
with 314 grooves. Your claim of best (but not very good) accuracy with heavier (and longer)
bullets might be consistent with this possibility. You need to slug the bore of your rifle and
measure the groove diameter on the slug with a micrometer. Then you want to be sure your ammo
is of as comparable diameter as possible.

Mosin addicts do this and find the better examples are accuracy competitive with 1903 Springfields
and even Swedish Mausers. You will find lots of data on varying results with different 7.62x54R
surplus ammo head stamps on the web.

Your comment about 1 in 1" twist rate is of course gibberish and bears absolutely no relationship
to recoil and "rifling" does not push squat. Actual twist rate is for a Mosin is ~ 1 in 9 1/2",
notably less than any machine screw I have seen.

You may compare this to a 1 in 10" twist rate for the 30-40 Krag and the 303 British cartridge
peers, all of the same design period (1890s), all following the same rimmed design philosophy
early in the smokeless cartridge era, and all originally intended for a 200 grain plus, nominally
30 caliber bullet. In terms of ballistics, there is hardly any difference in the three and all
are a smidge more anemic than the 30-06. Ditto for relative recoil. I suspect your comments here
mostly mean this is your first "big boy" rifle. But your Mosin I suppose might be one of the
very short barreled M44 or 38? carbines which produce an incredibly loud muzzle blast (complete
with visible flame). Lots of relatively inexperienced folks equate more noise with more recoil.

However unsuited (and nekulturny) a Mosin might appear in the hands of a hunter, I agree it is
adequate for NA game, just like the many other cartridges with comparable ballistics. It's about
on a par with a 300 Savage or a 308 Winchester. But this is nothing to gush over. And, when you
actually shot enough game to matter, you will realize that game perfectly shot in the heart/lungs
with one of these rifles seldom drops like a rock. Running 25 to 100 yards before dropping is
more normal.

[Gunner Asch]

Excellent post!!

Gunner

[clarkm...@gmail.com]

On Friday, May 25, 2012 3:48:51 PM UTC-7, penultimate wrote:
> Lots of relatively inexperienced folks equate more noise with more recoil.

When I put in ear plugs and put ear muffs over that, the rifle that Quickload calculates to be more than 10,000 psi muzzle pressure seem to get noise in through my sinuses on either side of my nose.

I can avoid most recoil pain to the shoulder with a Large grind to fit Limbsaver that is not ground to fit, but still 2" wide.

The two miserable experiences seem to be summed by my soul to a net suffering.