Uzi Carbine
Scott M. Kozel
combining the lesser penetration of a large-bore pistol round such as
9mm or 45 ACP, with the accuracy of a shoulder fired carbine, and the
firepower of a magazine of 30 or more rounds. I am assuming the U.S.
citizen legal version that is semi-automatic.
It never seemed to catch on in that role, though. I would be
interested in the opinions of folks here as to why that was the case.
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David R.Birch
# The Uzi carbine seems like it would make a good urban defense weapon,
# combining the lesser penetration of a large-bore pistol round such as
# 9mm or 45 ACP, with the accuracy of a shoulder fired carbine, and the
# firepower of a magazine of 30 or more rounds. I am assuming the U.S.
# citizen legal version that is semi-automatic.
#
# It never seemed to catch on in that role, though. I would be
# interested in the opinions of folks here as to why that was the case.
I'd say it was just too pricey a toy compared to the cheap semiauto
Kalashnikovs available then. I bought a Norinco 320 Model B Sporter,
an Uzi Model B carbine clone, in about '95 after the Uzi couldn't be
imported. It's a fun gun that can shoot minute of Bad Guy out to about
100 yards but when the fit hits the shan, I'd rather have something
with more range.
Now there's several pistol ammo carbines on the market and none cost
anything like what a semiauto Uzi would. Or did.
David
edi...@netpath.net
# Scott M. Kozel wrote:
# # It never seemed to catch on in that role, though. �I would be
#
# I'd say it was just too pricey a toy compared to the cheap semiauto
# Kalashnikovs available then.
Also was WAY too expensive compared to the Marlin Camp Carbine, the
Ruger PC9 carbine, and other pistol-caliber semiauto carbines.
sta...@prolynx.com
# The Uzi carbine seems like it would make a good urban defense weapon,
# combining the lesser penetration of a large-bore pistol round such as
# 9mm or 45 ACP, with the accuracy of a shoulder fired carbine, and the
# firepower of a magazine of 30 or more rounds. �I am assuming the U.S.
# citizen legal version that is semi-automatic.
#
# It never seemed to catch on in that role, though. �I would be
# interested in the opinions of folks here as to why that was the case.
#
It was really designed for folks who wanted the real thing but didn't
have the bucks or lived in tommygun-unfriendly areas. Way too
expensive for any other purpose. At the time, you could get a couple
ARs for the same money and a case of ammo to boot. HKs were around
the same price level as the UZI. Which would you rather have? I
spent less than half the retail cost of an UZI carbine putting
together an M1A in the same period. A 1911 at the time was less than
half the price and had about the same ballistics, .45 ACP doesn't pick
up a whole lot in a 16" barrel. So it was more of a toy for the well-
heeled and less of a useful weapon. If I'm hauling a 10 lb gun, it's
going to have more smack to it than a pistol.
Stan
Jim
news:ham1im$adb$1...@news.albasani.net...
# The Uzi carbine seems like it would make a good urban defense weapon,
# It never seemed to catch on in that role, though. I would be
# interested in the opinions of folks here as to why that was the case.
Cost, effectiveness, too much of a compromise.
If one is to use a handgun caliber, handguns are more useful.
If one has a rifle, why not use the more effective rifle capability?
Additionally, the UZI was known to be not terribly accurate at longer
ranges, i.e. past 50 yards or so. For me, the long skinny barrel made it
unattractive, as well.
RONSERESURPLUS
# The Uzi carbine seems like it would make a good urban defense weapon,
# combining the lesser penetration of a large-bore pistol round such as
# 9mm or 45 ACP, with the accuracy of a shoulder fired carbine, and the
# firepower of a magazine of 30 or more rounds. �I am assuming the U.S.
# citizen legal version that is semi-automatic.
#
# It never seemed to catch on in that role, though. �I would be
# interested in the opinions of folks here as to why that was the case.
Hello Scott
I'm going to echo the other Posts here and say for a Gun that is No
Longer imported the ones you will Find here will be SO HIGH IN $ won't
be worth it?
Thier are alternatives the Kel Tec carbines in 9MM and 40 as well,
and Now Century and other sellers are marketing a Sterning Copy in
Semi auto as well as Sosumi, I'm sure I spelled it wrong but it will
hav e strik mags as well as a drum to pick from both are wholesale
like 600$ a lot less than any Uzi! Just a few ways to go man?
RON
nord...@yahoo.com
# combining the lesser penetration of a large-bore pistol round such as
# 9mm or 45 ACP, with the accuracy of a shoulder fired carbine, and the
# firepower of a magazine of 30 or more rounds.
I spent some time with the original UZI carbine back in the day and
found the ergonomics a poor match for me. These days a 223 carbine
fed appropriate ammunition offers better wounding, less
overpenetration, and the ability to effectively engage targets at
ranges beyond the capabilities of the pistol cartridge carbines, plus
tricking out an M4 knockoff is a great way to express your
individuality while being part of the in crowd.
RJM
> ...
I have an Uzi carbine with conversion kits for 9mm, 41 AE, and 30
Luger. It's accurate and totally relible,I've never had a failure to
feed even with handloads. It's main problem, in addition to being
expensive, is that it's very heavy. On the other hand, I've had the
Calico 9mm rifle and the AR-15 Colt in 9mm. Both were lighter and
cheaper, but both had very poor feeding reliability. I got rid of both
and kept the Uzi. I've shot the Uzi out to 200 yds (with the 9mm kit)
and had good enough accuracy for man-size targets.
edi...@netpath.net
# I have an Uzi carbine with conversion kits for 9mm, 41 AE, and 30
# Luger. �It's accurate and totally relible,I've never had a failure to
# feed even with handloads. It's main problem, in addition to being
# expensive, is that it's very heavy. �On the other hand, I've had the
# Calico 9mm rifle and the AR-15 Colt in 9mm. Both were lighter and
# cheaper, but both had very poor feeding reliability. I got rid of both
# and kept the Uzi. �I've shot the Uzi out to 200 yds (with the 9mm kit)
# and had good enough accuracy for man-size targets.
A cheap Kel-Tec foldup Sub-2000 is a very-reliable 9mm semiauto
carbine, too - and very lightweight and folds very compact. Just
costs a whole lot less.
I've shot the Kel-Tec Sub-2000 with everything from cheap FMJ to Speer
Gold Dot - and it works fine.
Scott M. Kozel
#
# # The Uzi carbine seems like it would make a good urban defense weapon,
# # combining the lesser penetration of a large-bore pistol round such as
# # 9mm or 45 ACP, with the accuracy of a shoulder fired carbine, and the
# # firepower of a magazine of 30 or more rounds.
#
# I spent some time with the original UZI carbine back in the day and
# found the ergonomics a poor match for me. �These days a 223 carbine
# fed appropriate ammunition offers better wounding, less
# overpenetration, and the ability to effectively engage targets at
# ranges beyond the capabilities of the pistol cartridge carbines, plus
# tricking out an M4 knockoff is a great way to express your
# individuality while being part of the in crowd.
Semi-auto 223 rifles and carbines are generally great weapons, but in
an urban situation, wouldn't overpenetration likely be a serious
problem, compared to a 9mm Para or 45 ACP?
Thanks to all for the replies ... looks like the cost and the weight
are major reasons why the Uzi carbine is/was not popular in the U.S.
Gunny_2009
Overpenetration? The concern for "overpenetration" has been driven out of
all proportion to its actual danger. Stop and think. Just how many times
in the past few years have you learned of factual (not rumor, or a friend of
a friend heard, etc) documented instances where another person was hit with
a bullet that passed completely through a burglar or mugger. I have heard
the mantra of overpenetration for defense for years, but I can't think of
any real cases. Sure, in drivebys where a bullet passes through a hand or
arm, it might hit someone in a crowd, but that will happen with pistol
bullets as well as with rifle bullets. But for the case of home defense or
defense against a parking lot mugging, I can't think of a single documented
case. If you use modern soft point .223 or 7.62 the bullet should expand
and stop in the first human it hits. So, a carbine firing a .223 or 7.62
softpoint is probably a pretty good home defense round. If you are
defending your house against external attack, such as in a SHTF scenario or
in the event the zombies lurch into your yard, then a rifle cartridge is
definitely a better choice than a handgun round. Don't forget to go for
only head shots on the zombies. :-)
Ralph Mowery
# nordrs...@yahoo.com wrote:
#>
# Semi-auto 223 rifles and carbines are generally great weapons, but in
# an urban situation, wouldn't overpenetration likely be a serious
# problem, compared to a 9mm Para or 45 ACP?
#
# Thanks to all for the replies ... looks like the cost and the weight
# are major reasons why the Uzi carbine is/was not popular in the U.S.
#
Depends on the bullets. You will get lots of penetration with the FMJ,. but
if you use some of the other bullets, they probably penetrate less.
Especially if you load up some varmit bullets such as the Hornady SX
bullets in a 223.
George
# carbine, too - and very lightweight and folds very compact. Just
# costs a whole lot less.
# I've shot the Kel-Tec Sub-2000 with everything from cheap FMJ to Speer
# Gold Dot - and it works fine.
Of all of the carbines mentioned so far in this conversation the Kel-Tec is
the only one still availible. Copies of the various SMGs come and go and
aside for the large capacity magazines it seems everything about them is
expensive and hard to find. Nobody mentioned the CCU conversions from
MechTech: http://www.mechtechsys.com/index.html I don't know anyone who owns
or has shot one.
George in Las Vegas
nord...@yahoo.com
# an urban situation, wouldn't overpenetration likely be a serious
# problem, compared to a 9mm Para or 45 ACP?
That's what most folks' intuition tells them, but a variety of studies
suggest pistol bullets and those from 223/5.56 carbine penetrate about
the same (except soft body armor which the carbine has much easier
time defeating). You'll recall that one of the classic complaints
regarding the 223/5.56 is that it doesn't penetrate barriers as well
as traditional 30 caliber military rifle rounds.
George
# an urban situation, wouldn't overpenetration likely be a serious
# problem, compared to a 9mm Para or 45 ACP?
A quick tour of the Box of Truth: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm
indicates rifles might be a problem in housing. I think a typical Vegas
house would not stop a bullet from a handgun and it would probably go into
the neighbors house unless you hit a stud or a person. Typical construction
here is 2 X4 frame construction covered with styrofoam. chicken wire, and
stucco. There is probably something between the 2 X4s and the styrofoam but
I can't recall what.
George in Las Vegas
Jim Bianchi
# Overpenetration? The concern for "overpenetration" has been driven out of
# all proportion to its actual danger. Stop and think. Just how many times
# in the past few years have you learned of factual (not rumor, or a friend of
# a friend heard, etc) documented instances where another person was hit with
# a bullet that passed completely through a burglar or mugger. I have heard
# the mantra of overpenetration for defense for years, but I can't think of
# any real cases. Sure, in drivebys where a bullet passes through a hand or
# arm, it might hit someone in a crowd, but that will happen with pistol
# bullets as well as with rifle bullets. But for the case of home defense or
# defense against a parking lot mugging, I can't think of a single documented
# case. If you use modern soft point .223 or 7.62 the bullet should expand
# and stop in the first human it hits. So, a carbine firing a .223 or 7.62
# softpoint is probably a pretty good home defense round. If you are
# defending your house against external attack, such as in a SHTF scenario or
# in the event the zombies lurch into your yard, then a rifle cartridge is
# definitely a better choice than a handgun round. Don't forget to go for
# only head shots on the zombies. :-)
While I agree wholeheartedly with what you say here, it seems to
depend on one thing: the target (the bad guy) being hit first. What if a
round misses or hits and passes through, say, a hand? What if the defender
fires a warning shot?
Many tests on rooms/bldgs constructed using the same techniques
found in modern housing indicate that it's awfully easy for an errant round
to pass entirely through a wall and still retain enough velocity to injure
someone on the other side. THAT is what is referred to by "overpenetration."
Know what is BEHIND your target.
--
ji...@sonic.net
Scott M. Kozel
#
# # Semi-auto 223 rifles and carbines are generally great weapons, but in
# # an urban situation, wouldn't overpenetration likely be a serious
# # problem, compared to a 9mm Para or 45 ACP?
#
# That's what most folks' intuition tells them, but a variety of studies
# suggest pistol bullets and those from 223/5.56 carbine penetrate about
# the same (except soft body armor which the carbine has much easier
# time defeating). �You'll recall that one of the classic complaints
# regarding the 223/5.56 is that it doesn't penetrate barriers as well
# as traditional 30 caliber military rifle rounds.
So what would be the typical police/magistrate reaction be to a DGU
with a 223 rifle in an urban area? Whether correct or incorrect,
their potential reaction to such an incident would be something to
consider beforehand ...
Ralph Mowery
<nord...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:haq5mg$8t1$1...@news.albasani.net...
## Semi-auto 223 rifles and carbines are generally great weapons, but in
# # an urban situation, wouldn't overpenetration likely be a serious
# # problem, compared to a 9mm Para or 45 ACP?
#
# That's what most folks' intuition tells them, but a variety of studies
# suggest pistol bullets and those from 223/5.56 carbine penetrate about
# the same (except soft body armor which the carbine has much easier
# time defeating). You'll recall that one of the classic complaints
# regarding the 223/5.56 is that it doesn't penetrate barriers as well
# as traditional 30 caliber military rifle rounds.
#
What most folks' intuition tells them is a probelm. You never know for sure
what will hapen unless you fire bullets out of your gun into differant
targets. I have fired at a few differant tragets and have seen what to me
is odd results. My AR15 with a 16 inch barrel will shoot through over 8
inches of wood with one type of bullet. Switch to a varmit type bullet and
it goes in about 4 inches and appers to have all the lead stripped off.
Never found the bullet, just a black collored path where the bullet went.
Both bullets will cut a hole in a piece of 1/4 inch steel at close range. I
need to do some testing as to what hapens afterwards. When shot into light
construction materials (say a layer of sheetrock) the FMJ just keeps on
going, but the varmit bullet breaks up.
For inside the house shooting a 223 loaded with varmit bullets is probably
the best for not over penetrating. Not sure what would hapen if you relly
shot someone with one of those. Just can't get the wife and kids to act as
targets for that :-) The soft points do seem to work well on deer from the
reports I have been seeing if hit in the heart/lung area.
Jim Yanik
# So what would be the typical police/magistrate reaction be to a DGU
# with a 223 rifle in an urban area? Whether correct or incorrect,
# their potential reaction to such an incident would be something to
# consider beforehand ...
Well,if you just have the one gun....
Besides,don't the police use AR-15's themselves in urban situations?
ISTR that many police units are now equipped with AR-15's.
I suspect they use FMJ rounds,too,not softpoint or expanding bullets.
--
Jim Yanik
Alex Clayton
news:haq5mb$8ss$1...@news.albasani.net...
Nobody mentioned the CCU conversions from
# owns
# or has shot one.
# George in Las Vegas
#
I had a CCU in .45 for years and LOVED IT!! The only reason I let a guy talk
me out of it is I bought 2 Kel-Tecs. A while back MT started offering them
with a couple different collapsible stocks. That and the ease of putting an
optical sight have had me thinking of getting another one for a long time.
They are a hell of a lot of fun, and very well made.
--
"Liberalism is a mental disorder."
Michael Savage
Scott M. Kozel
## # So what would be the typical police/magistrate reaction be to a DGU
# # with a 223 rifle in an urban area? �Whether correct or incorrect,
# # their potential reaction to such an incident would be something to
# # consider beforehand ...
#
# Well,if you just have the one gun....
#
# Besides,don't the police use AR-15's themselves in urban situations?
Yes.
# ISTR that many police units are now equipped with AR-15's.
# I suspect they use FMJ rounds,too,not softpoint or expanding bullets.
Good point ... a good legal defense for equipment used by a citizen
for a DGU, is that he used what the police commonly use.
Such as carrying a semi-auto pistol with 2 reload mags ... while a
plaintiff's lawyer might try the "Rambo" tactic, a defense lawyer
could counter that that it what the police typically carry.
Gunny_2009
# Know what is BEHIND your target.
Very true. But, in some recent discussions I have seen online, someone
brought up the topic of how often has it really happened that a homeowner
has used too powerful a cartridge in self defense (if such a concept even
exists) and had resulted in death or injury to others because of his choice
of cartridge. While everyone accepted the principle, no one could recall
documented proof that it had ever happened. That doesn't count the idiot
this past year that intentionally shot through his exterior wall so he could
feed through a TV cable. That one did hit a neighbor, but I don't count it
since it was intentional. Especially if you figure this one incident in
proportion to all of the other rounds fired in self defense in the past
decade. While the concept might keep me from using a .50 Barrett with armor
piercing rounds that might go through several houses in a row, I don't think
the risk is high enough to keep me from using something like a carbine with
..223 or 7.62 softnosed ammo for such use. We always need to balance
possibilities with probabilities. My personal favorite, in my house, is
my 12 gauge stagecoach model with 00 buck, backed up with my 1911 with 230
gr FMJ.
Tom S.
# We always need to balance
# possibilities with probabilities. My personal favorite, in my house, is
# my 12 gauge stagecoach model with 00 buck, backed up with my 1911 with 230
# gr FMJ.
Hmmm...My favorite combo is a Mossberg 590 loaded with #2 shot (for
wife, standard loading) and a 1911 with 200gr Federal Personal Defense.
Why the 230 FMJ when there are much better HP's, Gunny?