Cordite munition - dangerous?
Peltor
Recently I inherit 10 boxes of .450 Nitro Express munition (kynoch). There
is no year of manufacture, but I believe they are from the late 1940´ties. I
was told that it would be unsafe to
shoot them, because the cordite could have "dried out". Isn't gunpowder,
regardless of type and make supposed to be stone dry? I took one cartridges
apart, but the cordite looked okay to me. It looks and feels like soft
spaghetti and is approximately 2½ inches long and the color is orange.
Unfortunally I know nothing about cordite and it's behavior, but his advice
to me was, that I should take them apart, and then reload them with today's
gunpowder. I was told that if the cordite was "dried out" it was very likely
to "detonate" instead of burn. If this is true, I believe the risk of
excessive chamber pressure beyond the limit of the guns capabilities, is
very likely to occur.
What do you guys think? Any advice will be appreciated?
By the way, just before I was told about the risk involved shooting it, I
fired 6 rounds with no sign of over pressure. Well, except for the recoil,
almost like being kicked by a horse, but I believe that's how it's supposed
to be. ;-))
P.S. The riffle is a double barrel, in very good condition.
Regards
Peltor.
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Dr JP Hrisoulas
will give it an extensive test....(whahahahaaaa)..
Seiously now, if the ammo was stored correctly, ie, kept in a dry and somewhat
cool enviroment you will be ok... There have been thousands and thousands and
100's of thousands of rounds of WWII cordite .303 ammo being fired and
well...it works.
JPH
Dr JP Hrisoulas
Metallographer, Lecturer
Author: The Complete Bladesmith
The Master Bladesmith
The Pattern Welded Blade
HCI: Dedicated to seeing a woman laying dead, rather than alive legally
carrying a handgun.
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http://www.Atar.com
P. Wezeman
# Hi All.
# Recently I inherit 10 boxes of .450 Nitro Express munition (kynoch). There
# is no year of manufacture, but I believe they are from the late 1940´ties. I
# was told that it would be unsafe to
# shoot them, because the cordite could have "dried out". Isn't gunpowder,
# regardless of type and make supposed to be stone dry? I took one cartridges
# apart, but the cordite looked okay to me. It looks and feels like soft
# spaghetti and is approximately 2½ inches long and the color is orange.
# Unfortunally I know nothing about cordite and it's behavior, but his advice
# to me was, that I should take them apart, and then reload them with today's
# gunpowder. I was told that if the cordite was "dried out" it was very likely
# to "detonate" instead of burn. If this is true, I believe the risk of
# excessive chamber pressure beyond the limit of the guns capabilities, is
# very likely to occur.
# What do you guys think? Any advice will be appreciated?
# By the way, just before I was told about the risk involved shooting it, I
# fired 6 rounds with no sign of over pressure. Well, except for the recoil,
# almost like being kicked by a horse, but I believe that's how it's supposed
# to be. ;-))
# P.S. The rifle is a double barrel, in very good condition.
I do not know for sure, but I am skeptical about the
dangers of dried out cordite that you heard. I have never heard
of this problem. Cordite was used in British Military .303 ammunition
through World War Two. Immense quantities of surplus .303 ammo
from that time have been fired by British and American shooters,
and if dried cordite was a hazard I believe it would be well
known among those who fire and collect British military arms
such as Enfields and Vickers guns.
Any change in pressure would be especially noticeable
in a double rifle. These have to be precisely adjusted (regulated)
to fire both barrels to the same point of aim, and are usually
set to do so with standard factory ammunition of a particular
bullet weight. If your rifle is on target with both barrels this
is a strong indication that the ammunition is operating at
factory specifications of pressure.
According to Ross Seyfried, noted African hunter and
writer, express rifles such as yours were designed very
conservatively for pressure, hence the relatively large cases
and moderate muzzle velocities, by modern standards. This was
because they had to operate in a very hot tropical climate
while being very reliable. Such high temperatures can cause
higher than normal pressures, and excess pressure can cause
difficulty in extracting cases. Mr. Seyfried had an article
in a recent magazine, "Reloading", I believe, on how to
reload express rifle cartridges so as to replicate factory
velocity and pressure. If you are going to be doing this
I think you would find the article useful.
If there is any truth to the "dried cordite" story
I suspect it might be that the material that is mixed with
the nitrocellulose to retard its burning sometimes "cooked out"
of the propellant strands with prolonged storage at high
temperatures. The retardant is said to be some sort of
"mineral jelly" (petroleum jelly?) so in that case I would
expect the strands to have an oily or greasy appearance.
By all means get an authoritative answer to this
question, but in the mean time don't dismantle the old ammo.
The ammunition, and perhaps the boxes, may also have collector's
value.
Peter Wezeman, anti-social Darwinist
"Carpe Cyprinidae"
Ed Westphal
powerful, not more. The chances of misfire, lodging a bullet in the bore,
not realizing it, and then sending one down the bore, just after it, will
most likely destroy your fine double and may injure you as well. The idea of
using modern propellants in that ammunition is not a good one. If you want
to reload for it, first, obtain good information on loading data, get a
supply of modern, recent manufactured brass, as specified in your loading
data, bullets, primers, powder all to match the specifications set forth for
you. A good place to look for data is to write 'Rifle Magazine" Wolfe
Publishing. A number of the readers are followers of the old cordite doubles
and can speak more authoritatively than I. Here's a link to the web page:
http://www.handloadermagazine.com/
Douglas Trabue
#
# Recently I inherit 10 boxes of .450 Nitro Express munition (kynoch). There
# is no year of manufacture, but I believe they are from the late 1940´ties. I
# was told that it would be unsafe to
# shoot them, because the cordite could have "dried out".
nitroglycerine, 37% nitrocellulose, 5% vaseline." "the propellant was in
the form of rubbery, amber-yellow rods, feeling like freshly cooked
spaghetti." "Cordite does decompose more readily than other propellants
under certain conditions. Exposure to sunlight causes cordite to
breakdown rapidly, as does storage at the extremes of temperature. At
below freezing temperatures, NG is exuded, and at over 100 degrees F,
the mineral jelly starts to separate out. Decomposition can be detected
by a change in color from pale yellow to red, then to dark brown with
blotchiness."
The composition is just one of several variations and the article stated
that vaseline was added for lubrication of the barrel it didn't do that
but it did stabilizing the nitro compounds.
Not usable data for anything but included were some loads among them
500/450 NE 3 1/4": 75 grs cordite, 480gr jacketed,
15.5 Brit. Long tons / Sq. in., 2175FPS
450 No.2 NE: 80 grs cordite, 480gr jacketed,
13.0 Brit. Long tons / Sq. in., 2175FPS
Doug T
Rene Laederach
Dr JP Hrisoulas typed this on 1 Jul 2000 09:21:16 -0400 about 'Re: Cordite
munition - dangerous?':
DJH> Seiously now, if the ammo was stored correctly, ie, kept in a dry
DJH> and somewhat cool enviroment you will be ok... There have been
DJH> thousands and thousands and 100's of thousands of rounds of WWII
DJH> cordite .303 ammo being fired and well...it works.
Same with really old 7.5x55mm ammo. People still use the original 1908 ball
round in their Schmidt-Rubin G11 rifles (the one that predate the famous
K31 rifle, also a Schmidt-Rubin straight-pull rifle.
That ammo is now almost 80-90 years old.
--
FIDO: 2:301/133 & 135 | "The Switzers are completely armed
Internet: mu...@snoop.alphanet.ch| and quite free." - N. Macchiavelli
Michael E. Stora
Even in its day and age, cordite burned very hot and caused excessive throat
erosion. Your ammo may be safe, but I probably would not use it.
Mike
Peltor wrote:
> ...
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