Small framed semi auto 45acp

[pheasant16]

Daughter is getting married and moving to an oil exploration town. Had
a math teacher out for a jog disappear two weeks ago. Gotta love
economic development. BLECH!!!!
So Daddy (who dislikes handguns) is going to buy one for her for her
upcoming birthday.

She's small of stature, and has small hands. Figure if she has to
defend herself, want the SOB dead; not angry.

Been looking at Glocks, but any objective advice will be appreciated.
Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.

Thanks


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Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.net
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[nord...@yahoo.com]

# She's small of stature, and has small hands.

If you're looking for a selfloader (a strong case can be made for a 2
inch revolver) for a lady with small hands you'll want to include
single stack pistols chambered for 40 S&W. I like the Kahr pistol in
40 except they are little too small for me as I shoot with a high
thumb. Haven't tried their 45; perhaps it's small enough.

[RosemontCrest]

On 1/22/2012 11:20 AM, pheasant16 wrote:
# Daughter is getting married and moving to an oil exploration town. Had
# a math teacher out for a jog disappear two weeks ago. Gotta love
# economic development. BLECH!!!!
# So Daddy (who dislikes handguns) is going to buy one for her for her
# upcoming birthday.
#
# She's small of stature, and has small hands. Figure if she has to
# defend herself, want the SOB dead; not angry.
#
# Been looking at Glocks, but any objective advice will be appreciated.
# Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.
#
# Thanks

I suggest that you have your daughter, who is the one who is going to
use the handgun, choose what she wants. She may actually prefer a revolver.

There are many ranges that rent handguns. Try to find one nearby and let
your daughter decide what works best for her.

[Robert Lewis]

Remember that the smaller/lighter the handgun, the more the recoil. A lot
of women buy tiny handguns, thinking they'll be easy to shoot. That's a
mistake. How about having her do the lessons first & have the instructor
bring several various different types. That way, she can see what she
likes. It is hard to buy a handgun for someone else, in my opinion.
You mentioned a Glock. Nothing wrong with that. A 9mm would have lighter
recoil than a .45acp though.
Just my thoughts.

Robert in the hills of Tennessee

[Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley]

On Jan 22, 12:20=A0pm, pheasant16 <kiava...@yahoo.com> wrote:
# She's small of stature, and has small hands.

A good choice might be the Kahr CW45 - it has a grip that is about as
small as possible for a 45acp, and its noticeably less $ than a Glock.
It also has a much better trigger pull than a Glock. It runs $355.00
including shipping at

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/52707/

Note that at 20oz for the Kahr or 27oz for the Glock, both of these
guns have pretty brisk recoil. Is she recoil-sensitive?

[Ralph Mowery]

"pheasant16" <kiav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jfhni3$lpa$1...@news.albasani.net...

# Daughter is getting married and moving to an oil exploration town. Had
# a math teacher out for a jog disappear two weeks ago. Gotta love
# economic development. BLECH!!!!
# So Daddy (who dislikes handguns) is going to buy one for her for her
# upcoming birthday.
#

# She's small of stature, and has small hands. Figure if she has to
# defend herself, want the SOB dead; not angry.
#
# Been looking at Glocks, but any objective advice will be appreciated.
# Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.
#

Glocks are not for beginners.

I have two of them in the 40 cal. A model 22 and model 23. I have been
shooting handguns for over 40 years and like the Glocks. There is no manual
safety and the trigger pull is light enough that you either carry them with
the chamber empty or holstered.

I do not like the 1911 military style either for a beginner.

YOu should start her off shooting a 22 caliber. Either a revolver or auto.
When she is comfortable shooting that, go to a center fire gun. Then look
at a revolver first. If you insist on an auto, make sure to get one that
has a manual safety or long hard trigger pull.

You may want to look at the 9 mm caliber for her. It is beter to hit
someone with it than to be afraid of the larger calibers and miss the
target.
I am not a fan of the 9mm, but it does have its place.

If you can take here to a gun range that rents guns, or know someone that
has several, check them out before actually buying something that may not be
to her liking.
Even a 22 with her is beter than the 45 that she leaves at home.

[D. Staples]

Small hands, small frame, look to a 9mm in compact form. If she has no
background in firearms, the decision will be carrying it, or not. Glocks in
..45 have some pretty good recoil, not bad for an experienced shooter, but
would cut into range time for a novice, or worse, she will leave it at home.

[Mike Fontenot]

On 01/22/2012 12:20 PM, pheasant16 wrote:
#
# Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.
#

Good for you. Too many people these days buying handguns, knowing
nothing more than what they've "learned" about handguns from TV shows
and the movies ... an accident waiting to happen.

I can't really help you on the "type of gun" decision ... I've been
carrying either one or two .357 scandium/titanium 11oz snubbies for
years now, and lately have been trying to transition to a full-size,
all-steel 10mm 39oz 1911 (with one of the snubbies as a backup).
Neither of those alternatives (extremes, actually) are what you are
looking for.

--
Mike Fontenot

[SaPeIsMa]

"pheasant16" <kiav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jfhni3$lpa$1...@news.albasani.net...
# Daughter is getting married and moving to an oil exploration town. Had
# a math teacher out for a jog disappear two weeks ago. Gotta love
# economic development. BLECH!!!!
# So Daddy (who dislikes handguns) is going to buy one for her for her
# upcoming birthday.
#

# She's small of stature, and has small hands. Figure if she has to
# defend herself, want the SOB dead; not angry.
#
# Been looking at Glocks, but any objective advice will be appreciated.
# Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.
#
# Thanks
#

Why a semi-auto ?
Why not a small revolver ?

A revolver is far simpler to learn and use.
Here is good site for self-defense revolvers
http://www.snubnose.info/

Get her something in .38 Special
I favor used Colt Agent or Colt Cobra snubbies over S&W snubbies
http://www.cylinder-slide.com/snubbies.shtml
They are lighter and carry 6 instead of 5 rounds
Load them with specialiszed ammo designed for snubbies
I use Hornady
But some of the others are just as good

Extra reloads are on Bianchi Strips

[Sheldon]

"pheasant16" <kiav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jfhni3$lpa$1...@news.albasani.net...
# Daughter is getting married and moving to an oil exploration town. Had
# a math teacher out for a jog disappear two weeks ago. Gotta love
# economic development. BLECH!!!!
# So Daddy (who dislikes handguns) is going to buy one for her for her
# upcoming birthday.
#

# She's small of stature, and has small hands. Figure if she has to
# defend herself, want the SOB dead; not angry.
#
# Been looking at Glocks, but any objective advice will be appreciated.
# Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.
#
# Thanks
#
I'd have her handle both a semiautomatic and a revolver. She might prefer
the revolver if she has any problems racking the slide or loading the
magazine. The other thing to consider is her small size vs. what caliber to
get. Small, lightweight guns of large calibers (.45 acp, .357 Magnum) might
present too much recoil for her -- you want to be able to get off a second
shot without thinking too much about it.

I would look for something that fits her hand, is small enough to conceal
and something she can control after the first shot. Another option which
not many people bring up would be some industrial strength pepper spray. If
she doesn't have what it takes to "kill" someone pepper spray is a good
alternative and in most places you don't need any kind of permit for pepper
spray.

As for what brand you get I'll stay out of that argument. All the well-known
brands are reliable. While I carry an LCP, I'm starting to think a .38 snub
nose is the perfect carry piece. Load it. Pull the trigger. Bang! And, no
safety to deal with. (Yeah, I know. Glocks don't have safeties either. ) If
you are bigger and stronger a snub-nose .357 might be better.

Good luck, and let us know what you decide.

[Robert Scott]

"pheasant16" <kiav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jfhni3$lpa$1...@news.albasani.net...
# Daughter is getting married and moving to an oil exploration town. Had
# a math teacher out for a jog disappear two weeks ago. Gotta love
# economic development. BLECH!!!!
# So Daddy (who dislikes handguns) is going to buy one for her for her
# upcoming birthday.
#

# She's small of stature, and has small hands. Figure if she has to
# defend herself, want the SOB dead; not angry.
#
# Been looking at Glocks, but any objective advice will be appreciated.
# Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.


I'm 6'2" and 250lbs, and I sold my .45ACP Glock because it felt too big and
blocky in my XL hands (as opposed to the 9mm/.40 S&W versions, which feel
like they were made for me). I can't imagine that anyone with small hands
could ever warm up to the Glock Model 21.

On the other hand, I love the simple operation of the Glock pistols... maybe
you would consider one in .40 S&W instead of .45ACP? In any case, bring her
along when you go shopping so she can tell you what fits her hand best and
feels good to her. If you could possibly hold off on the purchase until
AFTER she takes the lessons (use a loaner?), she might be able to make a
more educated choice....

Good shooting,
desmobob

[MR]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 14:20:35 -0500, pheasant16 <kiav...@yahoo.com> wrote:

# Daughter is getting married and moving to an oil exploration town. Had
# a math teacher out for a jog disappear two weeks ago. Gotta love
# economic development. BLECH!!!!
# So Daddy (who dislikes handguns) is going to buy one for her for her
# upcoming birthday.
#

# She's small of stature, and has small hands. Figure if she has to
# defend herself, want the SOB dead; not angry.
#
# Been looking at Glocks, but any objective advice will be appreciated.
# Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.
#
# Thanks

If money is not a consideration, Kahr makes a nice small 45 with several
configurations available. I think it is the PM45. Then there is a small
GLock. If money is a little tight there is the Cobra Patriot .45 ACP
which I have carried for the last decade or so. Don't know what they are
selling for these days, but I bought mine when it was Republic Arms.
Great little gun.
Glad to see that you are getting some training lined up. Also, some of
the ranges and instructors will let a person try different guns for a
comfortable selection.
Best of luck,
MR

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 19:20:35 +0000 (UTC), pheasant16
<kiav...@yahoo.com> wrote:

#Daughter is getting married and moving to an oil exploration town. Had
#a math teacher out for a jog disappear two weeks ago. Gotta love
#economic development. BLECH!!!!
#So Daddy (who dislikes handguns) is going to buy one for her for her
#upcoming birthday.
#
#She's small of stature, and has small hands. Figure if she has to
#defend herself, want the SOB dead; not angry.
#
#Been looking at Glocks, but any objective advice will be appreciated.
#Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.
#
#Thanks

Depending on the daughters size and ability with handguns...Id
personally go with a revolver. A good .38Special double action revolver
with a 2-3" barrel . There are many many of them out there very
reasonable in cost.

If you cant find a revolver..perhaps a Star BM?

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Critical%20Look%20at%20Star%20Model%20BM.htm

it is one of my favorite CCW pistols, despite being only in 9mm.

Id certainly avoid a .380 at all costs and consider the 9mm to be the
minimum caliber necessary to stop a 2 legged snake.

Id also avoid Glocks for the modestly trained.

Gunner

[penultimate]

On Jan 22, 1:20=A0pm, pheasant16 <kiava...@yahoo.com> wrote:
# Daughter is getting married and moving to an oil exploration town. =A0Had

# a math teacher out for a jog disappear two weeks ago. Gotta love
# economic development. BLECH!!!!
# So Daddy (who dislikes handguns) is going to buy one for her for her
# upcoming birthday.
#

# She's small of stature, and has small hands. =A0Figure if she has to
# defend herself, want the SOB dead; not angry.
#
# Been looking at Glocks, but any objective advice will be appreciated.
# Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.

A small framed 45 ACP kicks pretty good and may be more than she wants
to handle. I would suggest that you take her to a gunshop with a a
range and have her try before you buy. If she is frightened by
shooting, she probably won't shoot. That said, the Paraordinance
Paracarry is a pretty nice and compact package. But I'm a fairly big
guy and still it is a challenge to hang on.

For simplicity and less kick, I might recommend a Lady Smith in 38
Special. Load with +P loads if you want, but once again, small light
guns with reasonably powerful loads let you know when they go off. I
can not imagine too many people that would not be adequately
discouraged.

[Steve W.]

pheasant16 wrote:
# Daughter is getting married and moving to an oil exploration town. Had

# a math teacher out for a jog disappear two weeks ago. Gotta love
# economic development. BLECH!!!!
# So Daddy (who dislikes handguns) is going to buy one for her for her
# upcoming birthday.
#

# She's small of stature, and has small hands. Figure if she has to
# defend herself, want the SOB dead; not angry.
#
# Been looking at Glocks, but any objective advice will be appreciated.
# Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.
#
# Thanks

Daddy needs a LOT more hands on with daughter. She has to figure out
what fits her hands and what she can handle recoil wise.
Many of the small frame 45s bite pretty good. She needs to visit a range
and try out different guns. This is especially true if this will be a
defensive weapon and she will be carrying it daily. (YES DAILY) Having a
defensive weapon is useless if it's home in the case because it's to
heavy/uncomfortable/large.

Also make 100% sure of the laws in the new area.

--
Steve W.

[Joe Pfeiffer]

pheasant16 <kiav...@yahoo.com> writes:

# Daughter is getting married and moving to an oil exploration town. Had
# a math teacher out for a jog disappear two weeks ago. Gotta love
# economic development. BLECH!!!!
# So Daddy (who dislikes handguns) is going to buy one for her for her
# upcoming birthday.
#

# She's small of stature, and has small hands. Figure if she has to
# defend herself, want the SOB dead; not angry.
#
# Been looking at Glocks, but any objective advice will be appreciated.
# Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.

Have her find out what feels good in her hand, and write a check. You
really can't pick out a pistol for somebody else.

Case in point: I recently found myself with a nice little CZ-82, and
was thinking about handing it down to my daughter (who lives by
herself -- well, her and the dog -- in Salt Lake City) . Well, while I
find it a sweet little shooter, she found the the felt recoil was
really, really uncomfortable.

Note that you're probably opening up something of a caliber war here
(and if you're not, I imagine I am). My own opinion is that while it's
certainly true that a .45 is a "better" round than something smaller,
anything from .380 on up really seems "good enough".

[Stanley Schaefer]

On Jan 22, 12:20=A0pm, pheasant16 <kiava...@yahoo.com> wrote:
# Daughter is getting married and moving to an oil exploration town. =A0Had

# a math teacher out for a jog disappear two weeks ago. Gotta love
# economic development. BLECH!!!!
# So Daddy (who dislikes handguns) is going to buy one for her for her
# upcoming birthday.
#

# She's small of stature, and has small hands. =A0Figure if she has to
# defend herself, want the SOB dead; not angry.
#
# Been looking at Glocks, but any objective advice will be appreciated.
# Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.
#
# Thanks
#
Glock has a single-stack compact in .45, it's going to have
considerable recoil, small hands or no. The double-stack Glock guns
have pretty big frames, too. The latest generation of Glocks have
backstrap inserts to better fit hand sizes, but they're not available
on all models. Glocks are decent guns, but not for everyone.

Any of the larger caliber compacts are going to be light enough that
recoil is going to be an issue, particularly for a new shooter.
Recoil can be overcome, it's mostly a matter of getting used to it,
but a gun that bites is going to be tough for a new shooter to master
without picking up a flinch. The more attractive guns for carry are
usually the lightest ones and those are going to be the hardest to
master if they're in any caliber over .32.

I would suggest that she find a rental range and find what suits her,
as well as getting some training. There's some on-going practice that
needs doing regularly, also. Buying a handgun isn't like buying a car
for someone, it's a lot more personal, more like buying gloves or
shoes. There are also some accessories that will need to be bought,
ear muffs and/or plugs, a carry case, cleaning kit with solvent and
patches, some kind of holster for it.

And don't discount revolvers as old-school, there's a very wide range
of grips that can be had that can fit just about anyone. Revolvers
can be fed with lighter loads until the shooter gets used to the gun,
then heavier loads can be shot for defense practice. .38s/.357s are
particularly adaptable that way. Autos are pickier about what ammo
they get fed, some small pocket autos are only reliable with certain
loads.
The Smith & Wesson J-frame guns have been a staple for concealable
carry for generations. Taurus can be found cheaper, you may have to
use the lifetime warranty, though. There are some part-polymer
revolvers that have come out in the last year or so that may bear
looking at, don't know how they'll hold up, myself. A try before you
buy thing.

Stan

[Diogenes]

On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 19:20:35 +0000 (UTC), pheasant16
<kiav...@yahoo.com> wrote:

#Daughter is getting married and moving to an oil exploration town. Had
#a math teacher out for a jog disappear two weeks ago. Gotta love
#economic development. BLECH!!!!
#So Daddy (who dislikes handguns) is going to buy one for her for her
#upcoming birthday.
#
#She's small of stature, and has small hands. Figure if she has to
#defend herself, want the SOB dead; not angry.
#
#Been looking at Glocks, but any objective advice will be appreciated.
#Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.
#

I have a wife and three grown daughters, all of whom have CCW
licenses. Our girls have been shooting various handguns since they
were 12 years old but for personal defense they all settled on S&W .38
J-frame revolvers with Crimson Trace laser grips. My daughters are all
armed with 2" bbl alloy frame DAO (double action only) models while my
wife packs a 3" bbl steel frame Chief Special that she sweet-talked
away from me (she's good at that). I smoothed out the trigger pulls by
hand polishing the actions and installing Wolff trigger spring kits.
The Smith J-frame will deliver minute-of-thug accuracy at any
reasonable range and is small enough to carry concealed.

The DAO revolver is stone reliable and the manual of arms is intuitive
- you aim it at the threat and you squeeze the trigger. Initially you
can load with low-power mid range ammo for your daughter and then work
up to full power rounds. Also for indoor practice you can use Speer
Plastic cases/bullets or X-ring Rubber Bullets, both of which are
primer-powered.

All the women in my family are armed with Smith .38's by choice, and I
consider their choice to be a good one. My daughters tried out various
compact automatics, but the snubby Smith is what they selected for
home and carry.

This is not to disparage the products from Ruger, Taurus, etc., but
the S&W guns are hard to beat.
----
Diogenes

The wars are long, the peace is frail
The madmen come again . . . .

[Martin Eastburn]

Remember the .32acp was used in war and for police both in Europe
and the U.S. Airforce. It is lighter than the 9mm so the 9 should
be useful considering the number of bullets in a clip.

Can you find a frame that fires .22 and .40 or .45 later ?

The 40 was developed for a 45 replacement and used by smaller framed FBI
officers. Notably the Latin countries origin and young women.

Martin

[Robert Lewis]

"Steve W." <csr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jfibqj$vuq$1...@news.albasani.net...

#"Having a defensive weapon is useless if it's home in the case because it's
#to
# heavy/uncomfortable/large."
#

+1 on this. Carrying a handgun every day/all the time takes some getting
used to, but having one that doesn't pull down one's britches is a huge
plus. Of course, larger handguns are generally easier to shoot. Even
though I'm not a Glock fan, I can see where a Glock would be beneficial in
this case (larger size than subcompact and light weight). I'll still
suggest, as have many others, that she try several types before committing.

Robert in the hills of Tennessee

[OCSDFW]

Not real big, long trigger pull but ensures you really want to fire at your
target and wont go off by accident, goes on sale all the time at for $267.
Also comes in a 9MM version.

http://www.academy.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_10051_126603_-1?N=39632023+933739035+4294958175

[Dillon Pyron]

Thus spake pheasant16 <kiav...@yahoo.com> :

#Daughter is getting married and moving to an oil exploration town. Had
#a math teacher out for a jog disappear two weeks ago. Gotta love
#economic development. BLECH!!!!
#So Daddy (who dislikes handguns) is going to buy one for her for her
#upcoming birthday.
#
#She's small of stature, and has small hands. Figure if she has to
#defend herself, want the SOB dead; not angry.
#
#Been looking at Glocks, but any objective advice will be appreciated.
#Have lined up lessons for her, just need the hardware.
#

Is she cool with a 1911? I like the Springfield EMP in .40 S&W. Want
something less like a 1911? I think the Kahr in .40 might work.

Might even suggest a 9mm. A .40 has a harsh bark, a .45 has a big
bang and a 9mm has a crack (IMHO). She might find a .45 to be a hard
gun to handle for shot two. And (again, IMHO) shot 6 in a .40 or 9mm
is easier than reloading after shot 5 in a .45

Find a range that will rent you handguns in all three calibers in a
number of different makes.

Oh, if she doesn't shoot on a real regular basis, I'd recommend she
carry it unloaded. I think an unloaded pistol is easier to swing when
you hit the guy, since that's all that will probably work.

In the interest of full disclosure, I've been a .40 S&W fan almost
since it was born. 135grn JHP.

[Gerald "Brick" Brickwood]

..45 ACP is not the easiest caliber to learn to shoot, especially in a small
frame package and for a smaller person. (That is part of the reason the
Army switched to 9mm).

The best thing you could do would be to take her to
a range that rents handguns and let her try a variety of pistols. Be a real
sport and pay for the rental and ammo, but, let her choose the pistol that
fits her best, is the easiest for her to operate and that she can hit the
target best with. In other words the one she's most comfortable with, since
that way she'll be more apt to have it with her when (and if needed).

All of these elements; fit, ease of operation and accuracy are important,
but more important is training and state of mind. So once you and she have
picked out a gun, find a certified trainer to teach her the basics.

[RJM]

If this is for someone who isn't used to shooting, a 45 Auto is the
last thing in the world they should have. They will be afraid of it
after they shoot it a few times and will develop a good flinch. Get
her either a 2-inch 38 or a 9mm. Load it with fairly low power loads
that won't make her flinch and let her shoot a lot of them. She can
build up to hotter loads as she gets used to it. If later she wants a
45, get her one then, not to start with.

[uncle_vito]

Diogenes, I totally agree. I own many types of firearms, but the one I keep
in my house for self defense is a 38 sp S&W Model 15 (similar to model 10)
with 4 in barrel. Just point and pull.

Lightweight semiautos risk being shot weakwristed which will cause them to
not feed correctly.

[B R U C E]

XD 45 compact or a 2" .44special revolver

[Ralph Mowery]

"Martin Eastburn" <lion...@consolidated.net> wrote in message
news:jfjmkj$kp4$1...@news.albasani.net...
# Remember the .32acp was used in war and for police both in Europe
# and the U.S. Airforce. It is lighter than the 9mm so the 9 should
# be useful considering the number of bullets in a clip.
#
# Can you find a frame that fires .22 and .40 or .45 later ?
#
# The 40 was developed for a 45 replacement and used by smaller framed FBI
# officers. Notably the Latin countries origin and young women.
#
# Martin

I think there are some 22 conversions for the larger calibers. I have not
looked at them as I do not want a conversion for the larger calibers.

I think the 10 mm was developed for the FBI after a shootout left several of
the FBI agents dead and the 38 they carried was deamed not enough gun. The
10 mm was then decided to be too much gun for many of the agents. It was
downloaded and later the case was shortened as less powder was needed. The
10 mm and 40 use the same diameter bullets. It was then named the 40 S&W
oftened called the short and whimpy.

I like the 40 and hae 3 that I use. Two Glocks and a Kel-tec.
The Kel-tec was only made a short time as many had a hard time with it
jamming. I download mine slightly and use 155 gr bullets. It has never
jammed in about 500 rounds.

[TimR]

The women in my family have trouble racking a semi and with the recoil
of any big revolver.

For that matter, I'm not real fond of shooting that lightweight
titanium revolver a friend of mine has. Stings.

The .38 would be nice. But the .22 Mag Taurus is a nice reliable
piece, very low on recoil.

[John Lemke]

What Mr. Mowery says:

<rmowery28...@earthlink.net> wrote:

# Glocks are not for beginners.

What Mr. Asch says:

On Jan 23, 1:06 am, Gunner Asch <gunnera...@gmail.com> wrote:

# Depending on the daughters size and ability with handguns...Id
# personally go with a revolver. A good .38Special double action revolver
# with a 2-3" barrel . There are many many of them out there very
# reasonable in cost.

I took my daughter in law handgun shooting for the first time in her
life a few years ago. Included in the trial was an XD 45, a Beretta
92 FS, a Colt 1911 Officer's ACP and a Ruger GP 100. She was most
comfortable with the revolver. She's not short of stature.

I'd recommend a steel framed .38 special capable of handling +P ammo.
You couldn't possibly go wrong with a Ruger SP 101.

Drill into her head that it's accuracy (under pressure) that's far
more important than caliber size. Keep it simple. Keep it something
she's comfortable with carrying and shooting.

[Bob Holtzman]

On 2012-01-24, Gerald "Brick" Brickwood <bri...@frontiernet.net> wrote:
#
#
# ..45 ACP is not the easiest caliber to learn to shoot, especially in a small
# frame package and for a smaller person. (That is part of the reason the
# Army switched to 9mm).

My recollection says that it was for compatibility with the Nato supply
chain.


--
Bob Holtzman

[Argent]

I started shooting handguns with a 9mm and after a few years I felt
the urge to get a gun with "more stopping power" (or so the gun rags
would have you believe). So I went out and bought a 40 S&W because
the 45 ACP was so hard to shoot (again, gun rags). After owning and
shooting that for a couple of years, I was competitive shooting and
noticed all the successful shooters were using 1911's in 45 ACP. So I
bought one of those and found it was easier to shoot than the 40 S&W,
and no harder than the 9mm.

Moral of the story, if someone can shoot a 9mm, they can shoot a 45
ACP, and may find the 40 S&W harder to shoot than either.

Let her try everything out. Revolvers are reliable, but when they do
go south, they require tools and a lot of time to get back into
action. And unless you are Jerry Miculek, revolvers are slower to
reload.

Lots to consider.

[Gerald "Brick" Brickwood]

Well then your recollection, although correct is incomplete. Notice also I
said part of the reason. Other parts were to ease logistics requirements
for shipments to theaters of operations (shipping a theaters' worth of low
use 9mm takes less effort and transportation assetts than .45 ACP). To
reduce the amount of time and effort it takes to train soldiers to use the
issue handgun. The Army actually conducted tests during the 1970s with
untrained soldiers shooting the .45 ACP and another group shooting a 9mm,
both groups shot at the same type of man-sized silhouette target and the
results were compared. The group firing the 9mm scored more hits than the
group shooting .45 ACP.

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:35:10 +0000 (UTC), TimR <timot...@aol.com>
wrote:

#The women in my family have trouble racking a semi and with the recoil
#of any big revolver.
#
#For that matter, I'm not real fond of shooting that lightweight
#titanium revolver a friend of mine has. Stings.
#
#The .38 would be nice. But the .22 Mag Taurus is a nice reliable
#piece, very low on recoil.
#

But the 22 Mag has the stopping power on humans of a chunk of salami
thrown really hard.

That unfortunately ...is physics at work.

Gunner

[Gunner Asch]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:00:53 +0000 (UTC), "Gerald \"Brick\" Brickwood"
<bri...@frontiernet.net> wrote:

#
#
#Well then your recollection, although correct is incomplete. Notice also I
#said part of the reason. Other parts were to ease logistics requirements
#for shipments to theaters of operations (shipping a theaters' worth of low
#use 9mm takes less effort and transportation assetts than .45 ACP). To
#reduce the amount of time and effort it takes to train soldiers to use the
#issue handgun. The Army actually conducted tests during the 1970s with
#untrained soldiers shooting the .45 ACP and another group shooting a 9mm,
#both groups shot at the same type of man-sized silhouette target and the
#results were compared. The group firing the 9mm scored more hits than the
#group shooting .45 ACP.


I wonder how much of that was the new 9mms and the worn out, loose and
clunky GI 45s?

Gunner

[TimR]

# But the 22 Mag has the stopping power on humans of a chunk of salami

# thrown really hard.
#
# That unfortunately ...is physics at work.

Two words: Fort Hood.

[TimR]

On Jan 25, 6:00=A0am, "Gerald \"Brick\" Brickwood" Army actually

conducted tests during the 1970s with

# untrained soldiers shooting the .45 ACP and another group shooting a 9mm,
# both groups shot at the same type of man-sized silhouette target and the
# results were compared. =A0The group firing the 9mm scored more hits than =
the
# group shooting .45 ACP.

I had a family member in the military who had to shoot pistol once a
year for the mandatory range time. When they converted from .45 to
9mm this person went from being rated "familiarized" every year to
"qualified" every year.

[Gerald "Brick" Brickwood]

Consider some of the models made by Beretta with tip-up barrels. No slide
racking needed unless to clear a jam.

I don't like light revolvers either, but, I'm very fond of .38 Spec. Do you
have any prejudice against a 2" barreled S&W model 10? That will give the
gals a K-frame sized grip to hang onto and a short barrel for easier
concealment and 6 shots instead of 5. Mid-range wadcutter loads at close
range are nasty for self-defense use! You could even consider the fairly
new .327 Federal Magnum caliber. The S&W and I think Ruger packages for it
look very good.

..22 is better than nothing at all, but I don't see the need to go with .22
Magnum. .22 LR will do just fine at self-defense ranges, as long as the
shooter can keep his (or her) wits about him and keep his (or her) shots on
target. At least a target area from mouth to eyes and cheek to cheek

[SaPeIsMa]

"Gerald "Brick" Brickwood" <bri...@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:jfond5$1lv$1...@news.albasani.net...
#
#
# Well then your recollection, although correct is incomplete. Notice also
# I
# said part of the reason. Other parts were to ease logistics requirements
# for shipments to theaters of operations (shipping a theaters' worth of low
# use 9mm takes less effort and transportation assetts than .45 ACP). To
# reduce the amount of time and effort it takes to train soldiers to use the
# issue handgun. The Army actually conducted tests during the 1970s with
# untrained soldiers shooting the .45 ACP and another group shooting a 9mm,
# both groups shot at the same type of man-sized silhouette target and the
# results were compared. The group firing the 9mm scored more hits than the

# group shooting .45 ACP.

#

Did they also control for the age and quality of the guns used ?
A .45 that has been reworked multiple times during a long service life will
probably shoot with less accuracy than something just recently acquired.

[Gunner Asch]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:17:57 +0000 (UTC), TimR <timot...@aol.com>
wrote:

## But the 22 Mag has the stopping power on humans of a chunk of salami
## thrown really hard.
##
## That unfortunately ...is physics at work.
#
#Two words: Fort Hood.

True enough. However....

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/11/23/myth-busting-22-magnum-vs-5-7x28mm/

if you do compare the civilian factory FN loads to 22 magnum, the
5.7x28mm loads still perform 30% better. And comparison data is nearly
always using a 16" 22 mag rifle barrel versus the pistol barrel in the
5.7

Keep in mind that in the Fort Hood shooting...there were some 43 people
who were shot, and only 13 died.

The dirtbag himself was shot 4-5 times with a 9mm..and while he is a
quadrapligic..is still very much alive.

"An investigator later testified that 146 spent shell casings were
recovered inside the building.[27] Another 68 casings were collected
outside, for a total of 214 rounds fired by the attacker and responding
police officers"

Total round count by responding police officers was 8 rounds, leaving
206 rounds fired by Hasan, indicating that most of the dead and injured
were hit multiple times with the 5.7. And those that were hit were
often unaware of being under attack at the moment of being hit, and were
often hit straight in the chest cavity or in the skull.

So yes, it killed 13 people out of the 43 struck, and it appears that
they were hit multiple times with a cartridge that is 30% more powerful
out of a pistol, than a 22 magnum out of a 16" rifle

Now if he had been armed with say..a 357 mag, using a decent 125gr
JHP..what do you think the death toll would have been versus the 2.5:1
wounded/dead ratio?

As I said (with some humor) ..stopping power of the 22 Mag (which is 30%
less than the 5.7 if fired from a rifle..and if fired from an equivelant
handgun..will be closer to 45-50% less) is not all that great.

If we simply froze that salami and utilized it like a blunt instrument,
stopping power would have approached 100%

<VBG>

Gunner

[Gunner Asch]

#Did they also control for the age and quality of the guns used ?
#A .45 that has been reworked multiple times during a long service life will
#probably shoot with less accuracy than something just recently acquired.

Indeed. Anyone here who has fired the Gi 1911 in the 70s-80s will know
exactly what you are talking about.

[Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley]

On Jan 26, 10:18=A0am, "SaPeIsMa" <SaPeI...@HotMail.com> wrote:
# Did they also control for the age and quality of the guns used ?
# A .45 that has been reworked multiple times during a long service life wi=
ll
# probably shoot with less accuracy than something just recently acquired.

Following the end of WWII, the US military never purchased any more
service grade 1911 pistols. They are all at least that old.

There were small quantities of National Match guns acquired in the
early to mid 1960s. I don't know it they were newly made or rebuilds.

[TimR]

On Jan 26, 4:40=A0pm, Gunner Asch <gunnera...@gmail.com> wrote:

#

# The dirtbag himself was shot 4-5 times with a 9mm..and while he is a
# quadrapligic..is still very much alive.
#
This is an important point, I think.

I've read pretty much all the articles about stopping power.

There are various perspectives, but nearly all come to two
conclusions.

Short of a CNS hit, nothing manportable can really be powerful enough
to do the instant stop. (and with a CNS hit, almost anything does the
job)

Therefore, we should carry the biggest caliber we can lift.

Huh?

If nothing is powerful enough, carrying the SMALLEST we can find is
just as valid an argument. I've never seen anybody make that
argument, granted!

Personally I think penetration is underrated, and that as power goes
down we should shift our focus away from expansion and wide holes
toward penetration and deep holes.

Caveat: I'm only a hunter, have no experience in combat shooting. Or
much interest, for that matter.

[TimR]

On Jan 26, 4:40=A0pm, Gunner Asch <gunnera...@gmail.com> wrote:

#

# Now if he had been armed with say..a 357 mag, using a decent 125gr
# JHP..what do you think the death toll would have been versus the 2.5:1
# wounded/dead ratio?

No way to know. There's a good chance the death toll would have been
six or less. Did he really change mags 10 times? How did he carry
that many within easy reach?

At any rate, it would be a very skilled shooter to fire a .357 206
times rapidly and hit targets. Six times is doable, but not everybody
can.

[Gunner Asch]

Most of the victims were shot at 10 Feet or less.

Doesnt take much of a shot to do that. But its a good point about the
reload time.


Gunner

[Mike Marlow]

Not at all Tim. Depending on the range, all of those shots are quite
possible - with enough accuracy to be lethal. Add to that, the effects of
"mental state", where people do not display the tendancies and capabilities
that we expect under normal conditions. I would say that anybody can -
depending on the range, easily fire those 6 shots you mention above, and
quite lethally.

-Mike-
mmarlo...@windstream.net

[CH]

I have several .45's, including a Glock 36. I wouldn't hesitate to
recommend the Glock 36 for a CCW; though male, I have smallish hands.

My Glock 36 is ridiculously accurate, which I attribute to just how well it
fits my hands and points naturally. As others have pointed out, the recoil
is stout, but not at all painful or unmanageable. The only caveat is that
because of the short grip, your pinkie finger really has no purchase on the
gun, and if you do try to curl it around the base plate of the magazine
you'll get a nasty pinch when you fire the gun. (resulting in an ugly blood
blister)

Go ahead and get night-sights if it's going to be her go to gun.

[TimR]

On Jan 27, 8:14=A0pm, "Mike Marlow" <mmar...@windstream.net> wrote:
# Not at all Tim. =A0Depending on the range, all of those shots are quite
# possible - with enough accuracy to be lethal. =A0Add to that, the effects=
of
# "mental state", where people do not display the tendancies and capabiliti=
es
# that we expect under normal conditions. =A0I would say that anybody can -
# depending on the range, easily fire those 6 shots you mention above, and
# quite lethally.

Mike, at the range I could do it 100 times out of a 100. With my
last .357 (wish I hadn't sold it) I could do it at 25 yards timed fire
no problem, maybe on a good day rapid fire. Though my point was after
six shots I'd be empty, in a room full of angry fit young men, whereas
with the FN he had 20 and lots of mags.

But in real life shootings people empty a mag at 10 feet sometimes
without a single hit. Apparently there's something different about
real encounters.

I don't know enough about the Ft Hood details. The victims were young
extremely healthy soldiers, with first response medics on the spot and
quality medical care available, and that may account for the ratio of
wounded.

[Mike Marlow]

Sometimes it's just all in how ya read it Tim. Somehow, I had read you to
be saying something different.

[Steve W.]

Under actual danger you can figure on accuracy for the normal person
dropping by around 70% from normal.
The only folks who really have an edge in this are folks who have seen
combat or already been through similar events
and made it through without real problems.

This is also why I tell folks to practice a LOT. You want to try to get
the motions and actions ingrained into your
mind so that when the bad event happens the muscles know what to do even
if your fighting in your head.

It is a lot like the way a good martial artist trains, you need to get
to a point where you don't really "think" about the motion, you just
react the way you have to. About the only way to practice this for a
defensive hand gunner is to hit the range a lot, plus get involved in
paint-ball with a variation. I like to place targets around the range
and then hit them while trying to avoid getting hit myself.

--
Steve W.

[TimR]

Not sure what I meant to say either! In the back of my mind though
was the thought that an FN 5.7 or a .22 Mag might be easier to make
accurate shots with under pressure than a heavier caliber, especially
with a volume of fire like this. I don't find 9mm or .45 to have
particularly heavy recoil, but family members who don't shoot much
don't want to touch them; they find air guns and .22 LR fun, but the
centerfires hurt. Consequently they can't shoot them accurately.

With experience you can shoot the heavy calibers accurately - but you
might still have an edge with the lighter ones.

Here's one i saw in a gun mag this weekend and don't EVER want to
shoot:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/10/daniel-zimmerman/new-gun-maker-hei=
zer-announces-doubletap-45-derringer/

I have no doubt it's effective, but I can't imagine range time with
it. Guess I'm a wimp. I've shot that lightweight titanium .38 a
friend has, and that thing stings.

[Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley]

On Jan 27, 6:17=A0am, TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
# Did he really change mags 10 times?

Probably not - that gun (FN Herstal 5.7) can be equipped with 30 round
magazines that are no longer than conventional magazines. See

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/77665-1.html

# How did he carry
# that many within easy reach?

It was reported that his pockets were full of magazines.

[TimR]

On Jan 30, 4:53=A0am, Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley <cowartmi...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
# On Jan 27, 6:17=3DA0am, TimR <timothy...@aol.com> wrote:
# # Did he really change mags 10 times?
#
# Probably not - that gun (FN Herstal 5.7) can be equipped with 30 round
# magazines that are no longer than conventional magazines. See
#
# http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/77665-1.html
#
# # How did he carry
# # that many within easy reach?
#
# It was reported that his pockets were full of magazines.

Then I would imagine that the floor was littered with those postcards
for subscriptions.