Shotgun's serial number is unreadable -- how to fix? -- BATFE ANSWER
Gunny_2009
serial numbers gets accidentally damaged and the whole number can no longer
be deciphered entirely. I wrote to the BATFE and asked for guidance. I
just received their answer in writing and have scanned the five pages and
posted them on Photobucket for your reading pleasure.
http://s940.photobucket.com/albums/ad247/Gunny_2009_album/BATFE_rules/
In summary, and with the exceptions listed in the document, if there was a
serial number but you can't determine the whole original number because of
accidental damage, the BATFE will give you a new number to put on the gun.
If you can determine the original serial number from records or laboratory
analysis, the BATFE will give you a letter making your possession of the
obliterated serial number gun legal until you can have the original number
restamped or engraved along with an additional BATFE number. The owner, a
gunsmith, or the manufacturer can do the numbering as long as the work meets
the standards specified.
All of this and the details and exceptions are in the 5 pages I scanned and
saved on Photobucket.
Gunny
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Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.net
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jaf
"You should first report any such incident to your local ATF Field or Office."
I don't know what an ATF Field is, but I would report nothing.
I'd would run far and fast.
They have your name and address. Run.
Do not trust ATF, BATF, BATFE.
Look at this gobbliegook crap.
"If NO action is taken by state or local..."
"And investigation shows NO criminal intent ..."
"The AFT Agent SHALL..." "2. ADVISE THE OWNER THAT IT IS A VIOLATION to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate..."
"or to possess..." "and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate commerce."
Unless you can PROVE it was manufactured prior to 1968, accidental or not your in violation.
I would get to a bandsaw, cut it up, take it to a gunsmith pay him to take it to a metal recycler and melt it down.
Do it before they come knocking down your door.
John
cavalier
discussion and it's nice to see what the final result was.
Gunny_2008
"cavalier" <cavali...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hca21c$iq$1...@news.albasani.net...
# I want to thank you for the follow-up. It was an interesting
# discussion and it's nice to see what the final result was.
#
You're welcome. I was curious what the proper legal procedure would be. I
can't guarantee anyone here will like the official answer or will be willing
to follow the instructions, but at least now we know the official answer.
Gunny_2008
I figured not everyone would like the procedures. I didn't write them, but,
I figured it was worthwhile to post them. If you do follow them, it would
be good to have all your facts straight before going in. "The damage
happened accidentally and the gun has not been in interstate commerce."
These would be a couple of phrases to memorize. I'm not a lawyer and I'm
sure others will find some fine points of the law to argue here, especially
about the interstate commerce phrase. Other than that, everyone has to
decide for themselves which is the riskier course to take. i.e. Deal with
the BATFE and restore the number and be legal, or risk some stiff penalties
if you get caught later. As far as risking the BATFE being able to
determine your name and address and that you have guns, that horse has
already left the barn for most of us if we have ever bought a gun from an
FFL or used a credit card to buy guns or ammo.
dickr2
Do you want to sell the shotgun in a state where S/Ns
are important?
I thought BATF(I) only cared about machine guns and some
handguns.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I always thought S/Ns on guns,
even of filed off, could be detected using some device
because S/Ns are stamped on the weapon, and the detectable
imprint on the steel remains.
I may be wrong, but I have been right - just a few times.
:-)
Dick
Jim
"jaf" <jaf....@myfairpoint.net> wrote in message
news:hca21a$io$1...@news.albasani.net...
#
# I would get to a bandsaw, cut it up, take it to a gunsmith pay him to take
# it to a metal recycler and melt it down.
#
# Do it before they come knocking down your door.
#
#
# John
That was my response, too. I don't want to be on their radar. Just not worth
it.
Gunny_2008
"dickr2" <dic...@frontier.com> wrote in message
news:hcai9p$pfh$1...@news.albasani.net...
# With all due respect, may I ask why this is an issue?
# Do you want to sell the shotgun in a state where S/Ns
# are important?
# I thought BATF(I) only cared about machine guns and some
# handguns.
# Maybe I'm wrong, but I always thought S/Ns on guns,
# even of filed off, could be detected using some device
# because S/Ns are stamped on the weapon, and the detectable
# imprint on the steel remains.
# I may be wrong, but I have been right - just a few times.
# :-)
# Dick
The serial number law applies to ALL guns that had a manufacturer's serial
number. Older guns that were made without serial numbers are exempt. BATFE
is very interested in ANY gun (rifle, handgun, shotgun, machinegun) whose
serial number has been INTENTIONALLY damaged for criminal motives. Bad
JuJu. True about recovering serial numbers in the laboratory. I have
seen the magnetic technique used to recover serial numbers that had been
ground off intentionally by criminals. But, that is a moot point to us
honest gun owners. If you are caught with one of those, it will be
confiscated and you might be prosecuted, so why bother restoring the number?
You might be able to recover a serial number from an accidentally damaged
gun using that technique. Hopefully, you have already recorded all of your
serial numbers for theft purposes. If so, then you don't have to get fancy
to determine the number if it is accidentally damaged. Just look it up in
your records and restore the original number while following the BATFE
procedures. Keeping a gun with a damaged serial number is done so at
your own risk. It's your free choice on which is worse. For the people
concerned about flying under the radar, it's too late if you have ever used
your credit card to buy guns OR ammo. If the government ever wants a list,
they could subpoena (or just seize) sales records from Wally World or your
local gun store and track you by your credit cards.
Like I mentioned to others, I didn't write the rules and I'm not defending
their logic. I'm just publishing them for your benefit. Use them or not.
Your choice.
Larry Fishel
# Maybe I'm wrong, but I always thought S/Ns on guns,
# even of filed off, could be detected using some device
# because S/Ns are stamped on the weapon, and the detectable
# imprint on the steel remains.
Up to a point, that is is true, but in researching this when the
question was first posted I found a couple of cases where people tried
that defense, and it didn't fly. On the other hand, those were people
who had intentionally removed the serial number and were trying to
weasel out of it, but the precedent is there...
Gunny_2009
"Gunny_2009" <patmag...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hc9bc8$sid$1...@news.albasani.net...
# OK guys. Back on 2 August we had a discussion on what to do if one of
your
# serial numbers gets accidentally damaged and the whole number can no
longer
# be deciphered entirely. I wrote to the BATFE and asked for guidance. I
# just received their answer in writing and have scanned the five pages and
# posted them on Photobucket for your reading pleasure.
#
# http://s940.photobucket.com/albums/ad247/Gunny_2009_album/BATFE_rules/
#
So, just for grins, how about a little survey. If you had a nice
firearm that had been dropped or whatever and part of the serial number had
been accidentally mangled, would you just keep it and risk being caught some
day or would you go through the BATFE procedures to legally restore the
number?
Just curious what the spread of opinions are.
jaf
The point is where did the firearm come from?
If I've purchased it, I can prove what the s/n was with documentation.
If my great uncle on my brother in-laws kiss'n cousins side left it to me,
and I don't have any paperwork,
It's jail time. May as well be stolen.
John
IGot2P
Don
Jim
#
# So, just for grins, how about a little survey. If you had a nice
# had
# been accidentally mangled, would you just keep it and risk being caught
# some
# day or would you go through the BATFE procedures to legally restore the
# number?
#
# Just curious what the spread of opinions are.
If the damage amounted to anything that could be construed as "obliterated"
or "altered", I'd dump it. It wouldn't be worth the lifetime of misery the
BATFE could inflict.
Lame Duck
# So, just for grins, how about a little survey. If you had a nice
# had
# been accidentally mangled, would you just keep it and risk being caught
# some
# day or would you go through the BATFE procedures to legally restore the
# number?
#
# Just curious what the spread of opinions are.
I'd go through the BATFE procedures AND consult an attorney. My personal
policy is to stay squeaky clean. Therefore (the theory goes) I should have
nothing to fear.
You asked, I answered.
Al
Gunny_2008
had
# been accidentally mangled, would you just keep it and risk being caught
some
# day or would you go through the BATFE procedures to legally restore the
# number?
#
# Just curious what the spread of opinions are.
#
I'll jump in on my own survey. I have seen guns that have had their serial
numbers intentionally ground off in an attempt to make them untraceable.
They look distinctly different than a gun that was dropped onto something
hard and had damage to one or two digits or a gun that was being worked on
and a tool accidentally cut into one or two digits. The former case is
moot. I don't and won't own a gun that has had its serial number
intentionally ground off. On the other hand, if it is pretty visually
obvious that the damage was accidental, I think I would take the legal
route. I like one of the earlier posters' idea about talking to an
attorney first, just to be sure. As a responsible gun owner, I prefer to
obey the law. As far as staying below the radar as a gun owner goes, I
have bought far too many guns from stores to believe that the BATFE is still
unaware of my existence. As always, everyone is free to make their own
decisions on something like this.
Jim
"Gunny_2008" <patmag...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hcep78$16r$1...@news.albasani.net...
# As far as staying below the radar as a gun owner goes, I
# have bought far too many guns from stores to believe that the BATFE is
# still
# unaware of my existence. As always, everyone is free to make their own
# decisions on something like this.
It's one thing to be on ATF's radar legally, and another to be in possession
of something questionable.
As I recall, the original post said the number had been obliterated, which
is SPECIFICALLY referenced in ATF rules and court proceedings. If the owner
described the number as obliterated, I'm positive that ATF would agree. That
opens the door to prosecution, intentional or not. In fact, courts have
ruled that intent is NOT required, that simple possession is prima facia
evidence.
It's a no-brainer, at least to me.
Bandit
> ...
Just to clarify, one of the things we as firearms owners always say is
that we don't need new gun laws, we just need to enforce the ones we
have. But then when told that it is a crime to have a firearm with an
obliterated S/N, everyone proffers reasons why that law should not be
applied to this case or that case. In Pennsylvania, it is a crime to
POSSESS a firearm with an obliterated serial number. In Pennsylvania,
Sec 6117 of the crimes code says that nobody can alter or obliterate a
S/N. Further it states that possession of such a firearm would be
considered Prima Facia evidence that the possesser also obliterated
it. And it is a Felony 2. You can do what you want, but that doesn't
mean that you are right. What's the big deal. Follow the law. If
you don't like it work to change it. But don't tell others to violate
the laws WE shout to be enforced!
Just my two cents worth.
Gunny_2009
possession
# of something questionable.
#
# As I recall, the original post said the number had been obliterated, which
# is SPECIFICALLY referenced in ATF rules and court proceedings. If the
owner
# described the number as obliterated, I'm positive that ATF would agree.
That
# opens the door to prosecution, intentional or not. In fact, courts have
# ruled that intent is NOT required, that simple possession is prima facia
# evidence.
#
# It's a no-brainer, at least to me.
#
Actually obliteration wasn't in the original problem, just partial damage.
QUOTE: "I inherited a Remington 870 with a gouge on the side of the
receiver
that goes through part of the serial number. Three of the numbers are
unreadable."
I think he is an excellent candidate to use the legal procedures to repair
or replace the serial numbers the legal method. I think everyone should try
their best to obey the laws that exist. As one other poster reminded us,
our mantra has been that we don't need new gun laws, just enforce the ones
we have. Gun owners that don't try to obey the laws are hypocrits. If you
are concerned about whether the damage looks intentional vice accidental
take it to a lawyer and get some advice. He can call the BATFE Field Office
and let them know what he has and make sure they understand that this is
accidental damage. The fact that you are bringing it to the BATFE
voluntarily goes a long way towards showing you are an honest gun owner, not
some gangbanger wanting to get a clean number for his stolen gun. On the
other hand, if any of you guys has one that you filed off intentionally or
that you bought and could see at the time that obviously the serial number
had been obliterated intentionally, shame on you. That gun probably was
stolen and rightfully belongs to another shooter, not you. You deserve to
be caught.
Gunny_2009
I agree with you. But there is a big difference between being caught with a
gun with a damaged serial number and walking in voluntarily and asking for
their help in fixing accidental damage. Usually, the prosecution of people
for damaged serial numbers is an add-on charge to assault or burglary or
murder, where the DA wants to rack up as many charges as possible to give
him some plea bargaining leverage. I have never seen it as the primary
charge. Talk to a lawyer and have him arrange the walkin appointment. He
can ensure they know the damage was accidental, (it WAS, wasn't it?). Stay
clean, obey the law, don't grind off your serial numbers, and don't buy one
that has had it done. I still have enough faith in our country's legal
process that if you follow those instructions no one is going to barge into
the BATFE office and put you on the floor while you are there voluntarily
asking for their help on legitimate accidental damage.
Jim Yanik
damaged- S/N. it takes a bit of work to "obliterate" a S/N.