Why do police depts use .223 instead of 7.62X39 ??
pcg
Why do most police departments that choose high power rifles from Ruger always
seem to go with .223? Wouldn't the Mini 30 - 7.62x39 be a better choice?
John Gross
p...@ziplink.net (pcg) wrote:
#Why do most police departments that choose high power rifles from Ruger always
#seem to go with .223? Wouldn't the Mini 30 - 7.62x39 be a better choice?
#
#
#
Don't know for sure but my guess would be you have a certain amount
of "interchangeability" if the military/police/National Guard are all
using the same round.
Also the .223 has been around for 30+ years. The 7.62x39 has really
only become popular in the U.S. the past few years. Why change? I don't
see the Ruskie round as being that much of a "better choice".
John confe...@worldnet.att.net
Arne Carlsten
John Gross <confe...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
: p...@ziplink.net (pcg) wrote:
: #Why do most police departments that choose high power rifles from Ruger always
: #seem to go with .223? Wouldn't the Mini 30 - 7.62x39 be a better choice?
: #
: #
: #
: Don't know for sure but my guess would be you have a certain amount
: of "interchangeability" if the military/police/National Guard are all
: using the same round.
That's possible, but I've never seen anything in the professional
literature listing that as a reason.
A good part of the reason is that the AR-15 and Mini-14 have been popular
choices for a police "patrol rifle" for quite some time; while the Mini-30
is a fairly recent design by comparison.
The 5.56mm round has more of a history, as far as police use in this
country, which might be important to some departments worried about
liability issues. If they shoot someone with an AR-15 in 5.56mm, they can
defend this selection on the grounds that "This is a combination
considered suitable by the US military, and by dozens of other police
departments in this region." Whereas a Mini-30 and the 7.62mmx39 might
provide another angle for a lawyer to attack: "An even bigger bullet than
used by the US military to _kill_ people...A weapon not even our armed
forces or any other PD would find suitable..." and so forth.
All the same, there _are_ some departments using the 7.62mmx39, and it has
a lot to recommend it for police use. I've seen news/_Cops_ footage, from
I think either Tucson PD or Pima County (AZ) Sheriff's Department, with
officers carrying AK-type rifles in 7.62mmx39. And I think there was some
mention here on rec.guns a year or two ago of some rural Washington
agencies using SKSs (details escape me). I think the motivation there was
that the SKS is dirt cheap, while even at the "police-only" price a
Mini-14, Mini-30 or AR-15 is going to cost 3 or 4 times as much.
Those might all be better weapons than an SKS, but I'd rather have an SKS
in the trunk of my patrol unit in a rural setting than know that my
department has 3 or 4 AR-15s (all the budget would bear) locked up at the
station...
: Also the .223 has been around for 30+ years. The 7.62x39 has really
: only become popular in the U.S. the past few years. Why change? I don't
: see the Ruskie round as being that much of a "better choice".
I think it does better for penetrating obstacles in the field. That could
be a disadvantage in an urban area if you have to worry about endangering
innocents behind walls; but in a rural setting, where there's a good
chance the bad guys are behind a car, or a tree, fence, shed... Then
being able to punch through can be a critical advantage.
There've been some tragic failures of the 5.56mm in urban SWAT/SRT use,
which has resulted in officers and civilians being killed. 7.62mmx39
_might_ have done better in these cases, though the incidents I'm thinking
of were the result of trying to use the 5.56mm as a sniper round and
either selecting the wrong aiming point, or not taking into account
barriers that needed to be penetrated. 7.62mm NATO/.308 Winchester would
have been a better choice than either of the above, and is so used at a
number of rural agencies. But for general police use the 5.56mm or
7.62mmx39 are both adequate, so long as the agency bothers to train their
officers in how to _use_ the rifle.
--
Arne Gustav Carlsten
Flagstaff, Arizona
Chomh da/na le muc...
lan...@aol.com
Hi,
This is just a guess, but its very politically incorrect to use the same
chambering as the "Baby-Killing Evil AK-47", even if it would be more
useful in some cases. .223 ammo is also cheep, penetrates less, and is
even easier to get than 7.62x39mm.
"The Engine could still smile...it seemed to scare them"
Landric
James E. Burdine
#Why do most police departments that choose high power rifles from Ruger always
#seem to go with .223? Wouldn't the Mini 30 - 7.62x39 be a better choice?
other than ammo availabillity,Probably for the same reason that .223 is
used by varmit hunters, a miss usually causes destruction of the bullet,
and there is virtually no damage to other "friendly" targets down range.
The 7.62x39 has a bit stouter bullet, more weight to any remaining parts
tha may be traveling after a riccochet. I could be wrong though, any other
ideas.
--
Touch of the Bear
JB
Gale Barrows
p...@ziplink.net (pcg) wrote:
#Why do most police departments that choose high power rifles from Ruger always
#seem to go with .223? Wouldn't the Mini 30 - 7.62x39 be a better choice?
There are "aproved" rounds (no I do not knowe who does the aproving,
probably US Justice department) for police work. Use of these aproved
rounds lessens legal liability due to bystander injury etc.. Presently
aproved rounds are the .223/5.56, .308/7.62NATO, .30/06, and .300
Winchester. To date, I do not think the 7.62X39 has been aproved in
any commercial loading.
Kevin
# Why do most police departments that choose high power rifles from Ruger
always
# seem to go with .223? Wouldn't the Mini 30 - 7.62x39 be a better choice?
Police departments are very sensitive to issues like over-penetration,
ricochets, etc.
While the .223 will certainly produce through-and-through shots (if it
doesn't strike a bone, especially using military ball ammo), it loses
velocity quickly upon impact and is more likely to fragment. This is
important when you're facing situations where innocents are in the
immediate area.
Police work is not combat, no matter how combative the environment might
be. Unlike combat, secondary casualties are never acceptable.
Kevin
*********************************************************
I've been told I need to get a life. Anybody know where I can download one
of those?
***********************************************************
Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci
In article <57qs63$m...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Gale Barrows <barr...@rapidnet.com> wrote:
#p...@ziplink.net (pcg) wrote:
#
##Why do most police departments that choose high power rifles from Ruger always
##seem to go with .223? Wouldn't the Mini 30 - 7.62x39 be a better choice?
#
#There are "aproved" rounds (no I do not knowe who does the aproving,
#probably US Justice department) for police work. Use of these aproved
#rounds lessens legal liability due to bystander injury etc.. Presently
#aproved rounds are the .223/5.56, .308/7.62NATO, .30/06, and .300
#Winchester. To date, I do not think the 7.62X39 has been aproved in
#any commercial loading.
#
I would suspect that 7.62x39 is also not used in that it lacks both long
range accuracy and armor penitration compared to the other rounds listed.
It is also only so-so as a "manstopper". However, there was a thread some
time back talking about some PDs considering SKSs as squadcar guns, and
considering the mixed reputaion of the Ruger, makes sense for me.
tsb...@aol.com
In article <57tr8q$s...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, bev...@netcom.com (Bev
Clark/Steve Gallacci) writes:
##There are "aproved" rounds (no I do not knowe who does the aproving,
##probably US Justice department) for police work. Use of these aproved
##rounds lessens legal liability due to bystander injury etc..
Local authorities usually determine what issue ammunition is to be
authorized for use. The Feds don't care what the municipalities use. Each
armed Federal agency (FBI, ATF, Customs, etc) make their own decisions.
Regards,
TSB
Bill Walker...Producer and Cohost of The Shooting Bench radio program...on
a station near you or direct from the satellite at Spacenet 3, Trans 9,
5.4 audio freq. Every Sunday from 9pm to 11pm (Eastern time)
Tim Darling
In article <19961202173...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, tsb...@aol.com
wrote:
# In article <57tr8q$s...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, bev...@netcom.com (Bev
# Clark/Steve Gallacci) writes:
#
# ##There are "aproved" rounds (no I do not knowe who does the aproving,
# ##probably US Justice department) for police work. Use of these aproved
# ##rounds lessens legal liability due to bystander injury etc..
#
# Local authorities usually determine what issue ammunition is to be
# authorized for use. The Feds don't care what the municipalities use. Each
# armed Federal agency (FBI, ATF, Customs, etc) make their own decisions.
#
# Regards,
# TSB
"Approved rounds" would generally be those rounds for which someone can
testify in court when a dept. is sued for wacking some guy holding his wife
hostage after killing several other people. Most of the rounds used by
police have some type of record as sniper rounds, or are used by a number
of other agencies. We use the Federal Hydroshock because it has a good one
stop record and doesn't over penetrate.
Blair Garber
# In article <57tr8q$s...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, bev...@netcom.com (Bev
# Clark/Steve Gallacci) writes:
#
# ##There are "aproved" rounds (no I do not knowe who does the aproving,
# ##probably US Justice department) for police work. Use of these aproved
# ##rounds lessens legal liability due to bystander injury etc..
#
# Local authorities usually determine what issue ammunition is to be
# authorized for use. The Feds don't care what the municipalities use. Each
# armed Federal agency (FBI, ATF, Customs, etc) make their own decisions.
#
# Regards,
# TSB
#
# Bill Walker...Producer and Cohost of The Shooting Bench radio program...on
# a station near you or direct from the satellite at Spacenet 3, Trans 9,
# 5.4 audio freq. Every Sunday from 9pm to 11pm (Eastern time)
Why do police depts use .223 instead of 7.62X39 ??
Because the 7.62x39 is crap.
--Blair Garber
Ron Pelfrey
Blair Garber wrote:
# Why do police depts use .223 instead of 7.62X39 ??
#
# Because the 7.62x39 is crap.
#
# --Blair Garber
I bet it has more to do with the fact that .223 ammo is very
inexpensive. Army surplus ammo makes the cost of a box of .223 at
Wal-Mart only $4 for the UMC.
Ron Pelfrey
NRA Benefactor Member
http://www.ipa.net/~rpelfrey/
Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci
In article <59257l$q...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Ron Pelfrey <rpel...@ipa.net> wrote:
#Blair Garber wrote:
#
## Why do police depts use .223 instead of 7.62X39 ??
##
## Because the 7.62x39 is crap.
##
## --Blair Garber
#
#I bet it has more to do with the fact that .223 ammo is very
#inexpensive. Army surplus ammo makes the cost of a box of .223 at
#Wal-Mart only $4 for the UMC.
Actually, there are a couple of simple reasons, the .223 has better
ballisitcs and there are good guns available to make the most of it. The
7.62x39 is a bit more iffy in general performance and clearly doesn't
have much long range performance, and the guns available for it are
either unPC and/or only mediocre performers, especially at range.
Were I a cop who needed a rifle, I'd much prefer an AR in 223 (preferably
with a scope) over anything shooting 7.62, or other rifle chambered in
223, for that matter.
Espcially as a cop with a rifle is likely to be in a sharp-shooter/ shoot
out situation, and accuracy at fair range may be needed. At shorter
ranges or in other tactical situations, any bullet squirter in any
calibre would do, but the alternatives don't provide the precision that
may also be needed at times.
Gunnett
It's like anything else in police work, what has worked in the past will
work in the future. Not many people are will to try new things, since
almost all police officers have served in the military it only makes sense
to have a weapon that they have all trained with on a daily basis, like a
AR-15. After carrying one in the military for 8 years, I know that weapon.
How to take it apart, how it works and what to do when something go's
wrong. I think you miss titled your question, it should have been "AR-15
instead of AK's." Now why do they carry the AR-15 and not the AK's, its
that one is american made and doesn't have the image of being a "evil
empire" weapon and parts are easy to get locally. Now, things have changed
since the AR-15 now can be found in 7.62x39 but switching would mean new
weapons, magazines and such for only a little improvement in stopping
power.