Are Glaser Safety Slugs Effective?

[Bernie]

There is an article at http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs5.htm which

summarizes prefragmented bullets with the following paragraph:

"Despite the marketing claims of the companies who manufacture these
bullets and the
assertions of gun writers who are preoccupied with velocity and energy
transfer, PFBs do not
reliably penetrate deeply enough nor produce the kind of wound trauma
that is needed to
quickly and reliably stop a determined attacker, and this is why we feel
they're dangerously
inadequate for personal defense".

This makes sense to me, and I've also heard rumors that the smaller
caliber Glasers
sometimes won't even penetrate a leather coat! I was considering
loading my 357
revolver with these for home defense, but am reconsidering. Anyone have
any experience
with these rounds? Maybe on game?

Thanks
-Bernie

------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can learn about rec.guns at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns

[Mulroymedia]

, PFBs do not
reliably penetrate deeply enough nor produce the kind of wound trauma
that is needed to
quickly and reliably stop a determined attacker, and this is why we feel
they're dangerously
inadequate for personal defense".

#>>>>>>>>>
Consider the source. heart and lungs are only two inches below your chest and
Glasers have been used on the street. They are a surgeons nightmare. Do a
little research. Glaser's were invented for air marshal's and have performed
well when needed in various tasks. Like all bullets they aren't ideal for every
job. Wise be the shooter that knows which is which.

[Mortichai Jones]

I read several articles on the benefits of these rounds and others like
them (Corbon and RBCD make 'em), but over and over and over I have read
and been told that the absolute best round for self/home defense in
a .357 is the Federal 357B. I'm no expert, just what's been
recommended to me.

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/

[James Sullivan]

If you want Glazer safety slugs with more penetration they make a version
with larger shot for that purpose .
I talked to a Deputy who shot himself with Glazers and will not use them
again , He tried to shoot though a hardwood door and enough shot rebounded
to slightly injure him Fortunately the person in the house surrendered at
the first shot .

Bernie wrote:

> ...

[Henry E Schaffer]

In article <928jus$539$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Mulroymedia <mulro...@aol.com> wrote:
#, PFBs do not reliably penetrate deeply enough nor produce the kind of
#wound trauma that is needed to quickly and reliably stop a determined
#attacker, and this is why we feel they're dangerously inadequate for
#personal defense".
##>>>>>>>>>
#Consider the source. heart and lungs are only two inches below your
#chest ...

That isn't true for shots from the side! This was discovered the hard
way by the FBI during the (in)famous Miami shootout.
--
--henry schaffer
h...@ncsu.edu

[Eugene N. Neigoff]

I have had the experience with these rounds in a 9mm pistol at close range
in viet nam and I can tell you they will stop a man very well. I shot a
CONG at range 15 feet and although he lived to get to the 97th evac the
surgeons who operated said it was like a grenade had gone off in the mans
chest.

The real question is are you shooting center of mass or attempting a one
shot immediate termination. The glaser is very effective for center of mass
shooting but does not equate to instant kills. It produces extreme trama
and death from internal hemoraging. The primary purpose of a glaser is to
disapate all it's energy in the individual an breakup on contact to prevent
over penetration and injury to the innocent bystander or neighbor.

If you hit your target the bullet is guarenteed to remain in the individual
and if you miss the bullet will be stopped by two layers of dry wall. the
first layer will fragment the casing and the second will stop the internal
particles. this was its designed purpose.

I believe that they are a good answer to CCW if you load 2 rounds glaser and
then normal HP +P+ loads as backup.

Bernie wrote:

> ...

[Ralph K. "Kent" Compton]

A professional law enforcement person tried to shoot through a door?

One of the 10 golden rules of gun safety is to be sure of your target
and what is beyond. Unless this person had x-ray vision I suspect he
violated this rule of gun safety.

[Bruce Barr]

Don't use them if the weather in your area gets cold during the winter
(like NOT in Florida, Southern Cal.). They have been known and WILL
blow up on heavy coats (yes leather). Good fair weather round, poor
foul weather. The advice on the Federal rounds in the other post is
good. ALL Federal hydra-shok rounds are excellent. If you're worried
about overpenetration, then "download" to a good 38 special +p,
rather than the 357.

Bruce Barr
NRA Life
USPSA Life

On 25 Dec 2000 13:50:04 -0500, Bernie <b...@att.net> wrote:

> ...

[Kimberlee]

Still learning here.
Why is the .357B the best? And is it a safety slug?
~Kimberlee

[Frank Silbermann]

Bruce Barr <bruc...@clark.net>:<d06h4tk2li3mtd9mr...@4ax.com>:
#
# The advice on the Federal rounds in the other post is good.
# ALL Federal hydra-shok rounds are excellent. If you're worried
# about overpenetration, then "download" to a good 38 special +p,
# rather than the 357.

I've read that the 125gr .357 magnum penetrates LESS than the .38 special +p.

Why? Because, like the Glaser Safety Slug, the full-power light bullet
.357 magnum fragments (albeit neither as quickly nor as throughly).

f...@eecs.tulane.edu

[Mulroymedia]

I believe that they are a good answer to CCW if you load 2 rounds glaser and
then normal HP +P+ loads as backup.

#>>>>>>>>>>
GOOD POST!. I have no problem with the above. ALL bullets cause death by
bleeding unless you hit brain or spine and that isn't 100% with any bullet. We
just like to ASSUME such.

[Mulroymedia]

Don't use them if the weather in your area gets cold during the winter
(like NOT in Florida, Southern Cal.). They have been known and WILL
blow up on heavy coats (yes leather). Good fair weather round, poor
foul weather.

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Absolute total BS. That olde worn urban legend just won't die. Good
lord..give it up.
Call and ask the factory about this one if you doubt it.

[Mulroymedia]

That isn't true for shots from the side! This was discovered the hard
way by the FBI during the (in)famous Miami shootout.
--

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
For some strange logic shooters love to use a ONE TIME incident to validate a
point of view. Miami was about being OUTSHOT..not outgunned. A common thread
in such cases.

[R.M.R.]

Wow,One post mentioned a sheriff shooting into a hardwood door.I was
lead to believe that the reason Glazer's came to be was not to go
through things like glass,drywall and doors.If the sheriff doesn't
realise he screwed up and blames the round for his misfortune then It's
pretty posibul he's an accident waiting to happen.Also shooting and not
knowing what your shooting at in my area would get you immediately fired
from the force no matter what ammo you used.
Personally I wouldn't want to get hit with a Glazer but would I be
wrong in assuming a hollow point (MAY) also be some what safe after it
passes through drywall.I think I read this in a thread out here some
time back that when the hollow point fills with matter it slows it down
drastically.

Ray,
(Si vis pacem,
para bellum)™

[Harry E. O'Connell III]

Hmmmm. What ever happened to the other half of the Branch Davidian's front
door?

[Bernie]

Is that a 125 gr. JHP? That's what I read was the best 1-shot stopper.

-Bernie

[Bernie]

That sounds like a good solution. Then if you miss them with the 1st two
shots,
and they decide to stick around, you can shoot through the wall at them.

-Bernie

[Jflan81546]

strasbourg test , 1991
shows that they are effective at least on
160# goats ,for more info contact
Magsafe Ammo Inc.
4700 so. U.S. Hwy 17-92
Casselberry, Fl. 32707

[TactEdge]

Why concentrate on a Glazer?

For those who haven't checked out the Mag-Safe bullets, you owe it to yourself
to do so. Also, pick up a copy of Street Stoppers and see what round came out
on top in a large majority of calibers. That's right....Mag-Safe.

[Mortichai Jones]

I believe the Federal 357B load has been used in more police and self-
defense scenarios than all other .357 rounds. Some selective
statistics were done that state this particular load produces a one-
shot stop 96% of the time. Some people take these figures to be
gospel, others treat 'em as pure garbage. My personal experience is
that the load is so freakin' powerful that I can't imagine someone
(other than some freak on PCP) being able to take more than one round.
Two would certainly do the trick. Anyway, it's a 125gr hollowpoint at
1450fps out of a 4" barrel (~1200fps out of a 2" snubby). That's a
very hard-hitting round. It's a handful, and if the attacker is still
comin' at you after 1 round, empty the cylinder...

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mulroymedia]

. Also, pick up a copy of Street Stoppers and see what round came out
on top in a large majority of calibers. That's right....Mag-Safe.

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Into fantasy reading eh? That book has been blown out by the scientific
experts as a total fraud with no validation nor any scientific back up. Anyone
who is in the business for real knows this is pure fantasy with no validation
nor peer review.
A ton of internet sources can show you that.

[Mulroymedia]

strasbourg test , 1991
shows that they are effective at least on
160# goats ,for more info contact
Magsafe Ammo Inc.
4700 so. U.S. Hwy 17-92
Casselberry, Fl. 32707

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ahahaahahahah. what a riot. I'll pay YOU or anyone else if they can show any
PROOF these fraud tests ever took place. Please take my money. The goat tests
were blwon out as a total fraud ages ago. You have got to be kidding.
Right?

[JOHN GARAND]

ON 25 Dec 2000 13:50:04 -0500, Bernie <b...@att.net> WROTE:

#
#This makes sense to me, and I've also heard rumors that the smaller
#caliber Glasers
#sometimes won't even penetrate a leather coat! I was considering
#loading my 357
#revolver with these for home defense, but am reconsidering. Anyone have
#any experience
#with these rounds? Maybe on game?
#

Given the well established fact that most all "game" animals are much
more difficult to "put down" than is man, why would you want to judge
a defensive ammunition based on performance on game animals?
Effective performance on game animals would certainly assure adequate
penetration on humans, possibly as many as 4 or 5 humans in the
bullet's path - depending on whether it hit bone and/or was deflected
or not.

As to rumors about "smaller caliber" Glasers not penetrating a leather
coat, they might well be true. In these small calibers a FMJ would
probably have difficulty penetrating a heavy leather coat from more
than a few inches distance.

Ultimately, arguments from both sides in the "stopping power wars"
make sense to those who agree with the position of either side. If
you are looking for "quick, reliable stops" of people doing the wrong
thing, forget handgun rounds and get a rifle or shotgun for home
defense. Even Elmer Keith wouldn't have been upset at that decision.

[bk...@my-deja.com]

In article <928k56$564$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Mortichai Jones <mortich...@my-deja.com> wrote:
# I read several articles on the benefits of these rounds and others
like
# them (Corbon and RBCD make 'em), but over and over and over I have
read
# and been told that the absolute best round for self/home defense in
# a .357 is the Federal 357B. I'm no expert, just what's been
# recommended to me.
#

Which load is 357B ? Bullet weight and style ?

Thanks,

Ben Reinhardt

[pete...@my-deja.com]

# This makes sense to me, and I've also heard rumors that the smaller
# caliber Glasers
# sometimes won't even penetrate a leather coat! I was considering
# loading my 357
# revolver with these for home defense, but am reconsidering. Anyone
have
# any experience
# with these rounds? Maybe on game?

I used to have 9mm Winchester Silvertips in my 9mm and switched to
Federal Hydra-Shoks in my 10mm. In general, for self-defense, I prefer
a nice JHP. I do have some Cor-Bon that I wanted to try out some day.
The 1st round Glaser seems like a nice compromise, replacing the 1st
round CCI shot.

cu
-pete

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Kimberlee]

Okay. I bought the Federals to plink (so I could check everything out,
not because I'm wealthy and can burn the $$$). I haven't shot them yet
(the range is closed this whole week while they install a new laser
lane)... Oh, yeah, and emptying the round--kinda' like the milk carton
thread?
~Kimberlee

Mortichai Jones wrote:
> ...

--
"An eye for an eye, and the whole world would be blind." (Ghandi)

[R.M.R.]

Oh no not the strasbourg test again,
--------------------------------------------------------------
jflan...@aol.com (Jflan81546) wrote;

strasbourg test                            
    ,   1991
shows that they are effective at least on
160# goats ,for more info contact
Magsafe Ammo Inc.
4700 so. U.S. Hwy 17-92
Casselberry, Fl. 32707
---------------------------------------------------------------

Has anybody ever known that test to be true?
I'm not to sure on that.

Ray,
(Si vis pacem,
para bellum)™                           
   

[Mulroymedia]

It's a handful, and if the attacker is still
comin' at you after 1 round, empty the cylinder.

________________
That's the rule for any gun or caliber. There is no limit.

[Alex Clayton]

I too have heard the stories about small caliber and leather coats.
While I doubt them the thing that has kept me from safety slugs is this.
I keep hearing from proponents that a couple pieces of dry wall will
stop them? Anything that will open up on a piece of drywall scares me as
to how effective it would be after passing through
a heavy leather jacket. probably just in my mind but the cost of the
ammo has made me un willing to buy enough of it to try out and put my
mind to ease. I have had a .357 for defence many different times. I
always kept them loaded with 125gr HP's. I figured the chances of me
ever having to shoot someone again were pretty damn slim. If I did the
chance of one shot either going through the bad person or missing and
then getting someone else we are now talking astronomical odds. I figure
I have about as much chance of being struck by lightning as I do of
having to ever use a gun to shoot someone so for me i'm willing to take
the chance. To each his own.
As far as hand guns and stopping power I could not agree more with
John. If the S.H.T.F. at home and I had time my first choice would be
one of the 12 ga's with OO buck.
#From: GARAND_...@HOTMAIL.COM (JOHN GARAND)
>snip

As to rumors about "smaller caliber" Glasers not penetrating a leather
coat, they might well be true. In these small calibers a FMJ would
probably have difficulty penetrating a heavy leather coat from more than
a few inches distance.
Ultimately, arguments from both sides in the "stopping power wars" make
sense to those who agree with the position of either side. If you are
looking for "quick, reliable stops" of people doing the wrong thing,
forget handgun rounds and get a rifle or shotgun for home defense. Even
Elmer Keith wouldn't have been upset at that decision.

#"You can have peace.Or you can have freedom.
# Don't ever count on having both at once."
#Lazarus Long

[nataS]

"Mulroymedia" <mulro...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:92e266$i55$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
#
# strasbourg test , 1991
# shows that they are effective at least on
# 160# goats ,for more info contact
# Magsafe Ammo Inc.
# 4700 so. U.S. Hwy 17-92
# Casselberry, Fl. 32707
# #>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

# ahahaahahahah. what a riot. I'll pay YOU or anyone else if they can show
any

# PROOF these fraud tests ever took place. Please take my money. The goat
tests
# were blwon out as a total fraud ages ago. You have got to be kidding.
# Right?

A few months ago I offered $200.00 to anyone who could come up with these
tests. I still have the money, and the offer still stands. Show me the
tests, I pay you $200.00.

[Mortichai Jones]

Have fun and hold on with both hands!

Never read the milk carton thread...

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mulroymedia]

A few months ago I offered $200.00 to anyone who could come up with these
tests. I still have the money, and the offer still stands. Show me the
tests, I pay you $200.00.

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I once made a $1000 offer and NOTHING. You'd think shooters learned a lesson
from this fiasco and those behind it.

[Ron Seiden]

# It's a handful, and if the attacker is still
# comin' at you after 1 round, empty the cylinder.
# ________________
# That's the rule for any gun or caliber. There is no limit.

Yeah. The US military has pretty well established around the world and over
many years that no one can effectively argue with *MORE* ordinance delivered
on target (or somewhere that you think there might be a target -- maybe --
someday -- I guess...).

[Ron Seiden]

# I believe that they are a good answer to CCW if you load 2 rounds glaser
and
# then normal HP +P+ loads as backup.
#
# #>>>>>>>>>>

# GOOD POST!. I have no problem with the above. ALL bullets cause death by

# bleeding unless you hit brain or spine and that isn't 100% with any
bullet. We
# just like to ASSUME such.

Ditto. And that is exactly how the people I've met who use them load their
carry guns.

[nataS]

"Mulroymedia" <mulro...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:92j3gj$19m$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...

# I once made a $1000 offer and NOTHING. You'd think shooters learned a
lesson

# from this fiasco and those behind it.

Money talks... (fecal matter from a male bovine) walks.
With the amount of money being offered for it, I'd think that someone would
provide it.
Until proven otherwise, I'm putting the "tests" in the BS category.

[Kimberlee]

Weather's nice here, so I'll probably try 'em tomorrow! Weeeeee-hooo!
~Kimberlee

Mortichai Jones wrote:
> ...

--
"An eye for an eye, and the whole world would be blind." (Ghandi)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ron Seiden]

"James Sullivan" <fir...@tir.com> wrote in message
news:3A47D3C2...@tir.com...
# If you want Glazer safety slugs with more penetration they make a version
# with larger shot for that purpose .
# I talked to a Deputy who shot himself with Glazers and will not use them
# again , He tried to shoot though a hardwood door and enough shot rebounded
# to slightly injure him Fortunately the person in the house surrendered at
# the first shot .

Example of one of the main reasons (I believe) that they are called "safety
slugs" -- lack of penetration through building partitions. (the other being
lack of ricochet)

[Mark Thomen]

If this thread has been about the "snake shot" in the Glasers (I'm
talking about the originals, I don't know if "Safety Slug" is something
new), they have trouble penetrating ANYTHING. My understanding of the
early studies was that they make a mess of bare skin, but that's about
it - they never penetrate beyond the skin.

They do NOT have the momentum for any significant penetration. I would
NEVER waste putting them as the first two rounds (or ANY rounds) in a
carry weapon. It's as stupid as firing warning shots.

Ron Seiden wrote:
> ...

[arn_werks]

Hey you rich folks:
Send me a bunch of money, I'll buy a bunch of goats and you can
shoot hell out of an entire herd of what I will swear were feral
and rapid goats you came to help me handle.
Cordially,
Red

Mulroymedia wrote:
> ...

[David Steuber]

"Ron Seiden" <rse...@alphaaccess.net> writes:

' # It's a handful, and if the attacker is still

' # comin' at you after 1 round, empty the cylinder.
' # ________________
' # That's the rule for any gun or caliber. There is no limit.
'
' Yeah. The US military has pretty well established around the world and over
' many years that no one can effectively argue with *MORE* ordinance delivered
' on target (or somewhere that you think there might be a target -- maybe --
' someday -- I guess...).

Well if you are shooting in self defense, the only reasons to stop
shooting are:

a) The attacker stops.
b) You run out of ammo.

This is one of the cruel facts of life.

--
David Steuber | Perl apprentice. The axe did not stop the
NRA Member | mops and buckets from flooding my home.
ICQ# 91465842
*** http://www.david-steuber.com/ ***

[David Steuber]

"Ron Seiden" <rse...@alphaaccess.net> writes:

[two of glaser then the rest of +P HP]

' Ditto. And that is exactly how the people I've met who use them load their
' carry guns.

The price of a full cylinder of them causes severe trauma to the wallet.

The human body is pretty good at stopping bullets or slowing them
down. I don't think that over-penetration is such a major problem.
#From what I've heard, missing is the big problem. That won't be
solved by a fancy bullet. Neither will poor judgement.

The strange thing about bullets is that no one wants to be on the
receiving end of one, even if they don't trust it in a self defense
gun. What percentage of the gun is a security blanket?

--
David Steuber | Perl apprentice. The axe did not stop the
NRA Member | mops and buckets from flooding my home.
ICQ# 91465842
*** http://www.david-steuber.com/ ***

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[David Steuber]

"Harry E. O'Connell III" <hoco...@superlink.net> writes:

' Hmmmm. What ever happened to the other half of the Branch Davidian's front
' door?

Ashes.

[Mulroymedia]

My understanding of the
early studies was that they make a mess of bare skin, but that's about
it - they never penetrate beyond the skin.

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You have NO clue what you are talking about and suggest you do some research
and stop getting info from a bartender. The slug is a ONE piece affair, leaves
the gun in ONE piece, arrives in ONE piece and enters the skin where the jacket
starts to open up and dumps into the tissue 300 or so pellets that lacerate
flesh, muscle and in the process causes massive bleeding from the damage that
is all but impossible to repair by surgery unless there is time (seldom is) to
debride massive amounts of tissue and reconstruct the area. In the case of
lungs, heart and area around them this will never happen even if you shoot the
person on the operating table. They were designed in the 1970's to take out
airplane hijackers and no penetrate the metal skin of an aircraft. But you
knew that of course.

They do NOT have the momentum for any significant penetration. I would
NEVER waste putting them as the first two rounds (or ANY rounds) in a
carry weapon. It's as stupid as firing warning shots.

#>>>>>>>>>>>
And as for warning shots, they are mandated by many LE agencies and/or not
prohibited by most who do not have a policy on the issue. Many states (Minn
included) regard warning shots as part of the escalation of force doctrine. So
now you have two subjects to look into. Looks like 2001 is off to a tough
start.

[Jim]

Mulroymedia wrote in message <92qa49$grk$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
SNIP
##>>>>>>>>>>>
#And as for warning shots, they are mandated by many LE agencies and/or not
#prohibited by most who do not have a policy on the issue. Many states (Minn
#included) regard warning shots as part of the escalation of force doctrine.
So
# now you have two subjects to look into. Looks like 2001 is off to a tough
#start.
#
Very interesting about the warning shots. I have served in San Diego as a
reserve officer, Newport Beach, Ca. as a regular Officer, and Greenville,
S.C. as a regular Officer and all of these departments prohibit "warning
shots". As a matter of record, legally if you fire a "warning shot" you are
using deadly force and better be justified at doing so or you can be
prosecuted. All my fellow Officers that I know have all agreed that if they
crack off a round, it will be directed at center body mass only.
Jim

[R.M.R.]

Geez,Just makes me want to go out and blast the crap out for the
neighbors goat.sick of the damn thing anyway.Hell I have some Glasers
around here someplace

baaahaaaa???........~(‹;{] be right back.I'll let ya
know....he,he,..............baaahaaa!!!,they work.

Ray,
(Si vis pacem,
para bellum)™

[douglas trabue]

David Steuber wrote:
#
# The price of a full cylinder of them causes severe trauma to the wallet.
#
The price of a full cylinder of them (6 cyl.) is not really more than
the price of any other box of defensive round. Of course with most other
boxes of defensive rounds you can practice about 44 shots and still have
enough to fill'er up. :)

Doug T

[nataS]

"arn_werks" <arn_...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3A4F9D6D...@mindspring.com...
# Hey you rich folks:
# Send me a bunch of money, I'll buy a bunch of goats and you can
# shoot hell out of an entire herd of what I will swear were feral
# and rapid goats you came to help me handle.
# Cordially,
# Red

It's a lot easier to offer large sums of money when you know youwill never
have to pay. Besides, it someone did come up with it, I'm sure I could find
10 people that would pay $20.00 a pop to get a copy - I really couldn't lose
(money) on my offer.

[Mulroymedia]

The price of a full cylinder of them causes severe trauma to the wallet.

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
$12 vs $550 gun. Cheap!!!!

[Philip Wadsworth]

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Are glaser safety slugs effective?..............As I recall, the glaser
safety slugs were first introduced in the late seventies and only available
to law enforcement agencies. There was a publication in some magazine,
reportedly there were only 3 survivors out of the first 90-100 cases of
law enforcement officers using the glaser safety slugs. There were stories
of massive tissue damage and bleeding and people dying from limb wounds.
Now the glaser safety slugs of yesteryear was made up of a 1/2 metal jacket
with a teflon material similar to a pencil eraser impregnated with number
12 shot. They were know to be quite inaccurate and it was stated to be
good only at close combat ranges such as 10 yards or less. However the
slugs of today are said to be much more accurate. Although individuals
who seek further info or case reports may contact the manufacture directly
concerning these matters .</html>

[Mulroymedia]

Well if you are shooting in self defense, the only reasons to stop
shooting are:
a) The attacker stops.
b) You run out of ammo.
This is one of the cruel facts of life.

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
RIGHT ON RIGHT ON RIGHT ON. Heck I always thought you shot just two and stood
there evaluating if it worked or not. An old friend tried that. We divided up
his stuff soon after.

[JOHN GARAND]

ON 31 Dec 2000 10:56:02 -0500, Mark Thomen <tho...@attglobal.net>
WROTE:

#If this thread has been about the "snake shot" in the Glasers (I'm
#talking about the originals, I don't know if "Safety Slug" is something
#new), they have trouble penetrating ANYTHING. My understanding of the
#early studies was that they make a mess of bare skin, but that's about
#it - they never penetrate beyond the skin.
#
#They do NOT have the momentum for any significant penetration. I would
#NEVER waste putting them as the first two rounds (or ANY rounds) in a
#carry weapon. It's as stupid as firing warning shots.

I'm not particularly a fan of these (and don't own any), but let's
have cited references to published data from those "early studies"
which you reference which show that pre-fragmented projectiles from
Glaser (The "Safety Slug" is hardly new, but how "early" are these
studies??) are unable to further penetrate after going through bare
skin. There are no documented "results" of goat tests in France (or
where ever) published for review, and we disregard references to such
as "unproven". In fact many laugh at references to these "tests". So
now the shoe is on the other foot. Kindly reference/cite the
documented test results, or other proven source material, which is
publicly available and reviewable to prove your claim that Glaser
pre-fragmented commercial defense ammunition (or other commercially
produced product like it) will not penetrate further after penetrating
bare skin. I note that your second paragraph does not make the same
statement ("significant penetration" means different things to
different people). But since you are sure enough of your experience
with this ammunition to shout at the rest of us (surely you wouldn't
be so positive based on rumor and innuendo?), please let us assess the
factual material for ourselves.

[RSE]

He is what I know about Glasers from personal experience:

One shot of .380 fired from Walther PPK/S from 7 paces at a 1 gallon metal
unopened can of glazing compound (no really, I had some left over from a
job).

Result: hole in center of side of can (poa) top of can hit ceiling, can
split down seam, one other break in side of can, fist sized cavity in
compound in approx. center of mass, compound was blown out of the top, the
seam and the break in the side of can. Shot scattered throughout cavity. No
exit hole opposite entrance. Yikes!

Glasers regularly blew up jugs of water but so do many other rounds.

I never had any Glaser break up on the surface of anything hit.

If the idea is to cause maximum trauma I think these ought to do the trick.
I know carry .45 ACPs.

I like the zero/limited penetration on soft targets (BGs) and the non
ricochet feature.

I consider these personal defense rounds not tactical or military assault
ammo requiring barrier penetration or long range effectiveness where
everyone down range is a BG.

[Mulroymedia]

But since you are sure enough of your experience
with this ammunition to shout at the rest of us (surely you wouldn't
be so positive based on rumor and innuendo?), please let us assess the
factual material for ourselves.

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Please do. The company will be glad to provide you information. Mr. Canon I
believe is still the CEO. Such products do not come on the market willie
nillie. They are exhaustively tested and huge sums are paid in R&D before they
hit the market.
In our training we have fired a lot of Glasers at various items including cars,
and worked on development with the BeeSafe pre frag ammo prior to Corbon and
others marketing it. Richard (the guy who patented BeeSafe) spent a small
fortune coming up with this ammunition, and unlike others made it available to
those that reload. You may also not know that he has a shotgun slug in a
BeeSafe confirguration.
BeeSafe which is indeed prefragmented has a unique feature not found in Glaser
or MagSafe. That is, it will almost always penetrate a car door and then come
apart as it exits. I have some pictures showing this effect against
windshields where the slug comes apart as it exits into the car and hits the
driver/passenger seat area in a pattern about the size of a dinner plate with
square pellets that lacerate and do a lot of damage.
It is up to the shooter to seek out the ammunition that will fit their need and
situation and not depend on someone else to solve their problems for them.
I have worked as a cop in areas with high density of people like a shopping
mall etc. I found the Glasers a great choice for such areas where a slug that
exits a thug or hits and ricochets can be a serious concern.
When you are alone on the night watch in a empty warehouse answering an alarm
call a conventional slug is not a problem.
A person has to look at where they expect to use the firearm and realistic
about the circumstances they may face. Most shooters come out with way out
nonsense that would put a belt fed device to the test. Real life isn't that
way.

[Bill Keels]

I am posting this copy of a message I sent about this question many
months ago. It is based on MY observations as a paramedic taking care of
the wounded.

All were in Houston between 1978 and 1982. 3 were 38 special loads, 4
were 380's 2 were 357's and 1 in 45.

The 45 was an arm hit in the left elbow and the arm was permanently
disabled. The 357, 2 of the 38's and one of the 380's were fatalities at

the scene-all were torso hits in the center chest area above the lower
edge of the rib cage. It was unknown about the autopsy results but all
of the fatalities appeared to have massive internal damage and from
witness information the stops were virtually instantaneous.

The rest of the cases involved either extremity wounds or head wounds.
One 380 went into a femoral artery and resulted in an instant stop and
massive loss of blood as well as severe cardiogenic/hypovolemic shock.
The person was saved with the use of MAST trousers to control the shock
and massive IV fluids. This person survived and went to prison.

#From street experience I saw a lot of gunshots and a 357 125gr JHP does
not compare with the wound of a MagSafe or Glaser. The energy dump into
the target is very large and debilitating. Survivable wounds with these
rounds tend to stop folks due to the large amount of local tissue
disruption.

These frangible rounds are not the answer top all needs. I load JHP's
for car use but for personal use, especially inside where over
penetration is a problem I feel very safe with them.

[Robert P. Firriolo]

I don't have enough information to say definitively whether Glasers will
work, or won't work. But something I saw recently left enough doubt in
my mind that I have swapped them out of the magazines and speedloaders
in which I had previously loaded Glasers for in-home use.

I saw a very clear photograph of a shooting with a Glaser where all of
pellets were stopped by a forearm. Not one got through the arm and made
it into the vitals behind the arm.

It is widely known that intermediate objects are a real possibility in a
defensive shooting, most typically consisting of an arm or hand.
Glasers simply do not have the penetration to defeat an intermediate
object and proceed through to reach vital organs.

In a straight-on torso shot on a lightly clothed individual, they
probably will work fine. But since I can't choose my attacker, much
less the circumstances of the shooting (God forbid), I choose
conventional JHP ammo with reliable penetration and (hopefully)
controlled expansion.

Plus, I don't have to pay through the nose for the risky proposition of
prefragmented bullets.

--

MOLON LABE.

- Leonidas of Sparta, 480 B.C.

[Guess Who?]

About 10 or 12 years ago, the Calif. Dept. of Corrections tried
using H&K 9mm carbines with Glasers, instead of Mini-14s to avoid
ricochets in the steel & concrete prison setting.
They stopped after a couple of years, because too many shots intended
to disable ended up being fatal.
I used a 9mm Glaser once to finnish off a deer that ran into my car.
At close range, the effect was dramatic - and ghastly! I'm one of those
who has Glasers for the 1st two rounds in a Sig 28.....
Don

[R.M.R.]

Do what you want with it.It's a bullet that could kill you just like any
other under some conditions.Got a 49 in the kitchen loaded with them for
a 10 foot unauthorized entrance shot if someone enters my house
uninvited Everything revolves around that bullet.First off what is
behind the door,took care of that.The type gun,,the lighting, the
distance to the door,the place It's at and the distance it is from us,
meaning if you house invaded my and I'm in the kitchen you'd most likely
get shot with a Glazer.It's there for that and that reason only.Now the
bedroom or living room could be something else but that particular part
of the house belongs to Glaser.Oh one more big factor was,as written
many years is the area we live.I live in (no chad jokes please) florida
Ya know T shirt country.

Ray,
(Si vis pacem,
para bellum)™

[Mulroymedia]

I saw a very clear photograph of a shooting with a Glaser where all of
pellets were stopped by a forearm. Not one got through the arm and made
it into the vitals behind the arm.

#>>>>>>>>>>>
They make them in .25 auto and .32 auto and .380. I saw a fellow hit in the
cheek of the butt with a .380 and they had to debride most of the cheek. He
almost bled to death.

[Mulroymedia]

About 10 or 12 years ago, the Calif. Dept. of Corrections tried
using H&K 9mm carbines with Glasers, instead of Mini-14s to avoid
ricochets in the steel & concrete prison setting.
They stopped after a couple of years, because too many shots intended
to disable ended up being fatal.

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
There was a problem?

[RRich52806]

#From all the discussions on the Glaser I come to the conclusion that they ROCK.
I would feel great carring them in my piece
and practicing with less expensive ammo.
RogerTC1
http://members.aol.com/RRich52806/yo-yo.htm

[jason carr]

On 3 Jan 2001 18:35:10 -0500, "Robert P. Firriolo"
<lipr...@lycos.com> wrote:

#I saw a very clear photograph of a shooting with a Glaser where all of
#pellets were stopped by a forearm. Not one got through the arm and made
#it into the vitals behind the arm.

Sounds to me like the round functioned precisely as designed.

--
L.V.X., frater mus
play - http://www.mousetrap.net/~mouse/ the Great Work, guns, CD-R
OTR - http://www.mousetrap.net/~mouse/cbsrmt/cd-r/list.html

CBS Radio Mystery Theater show of the week:
http://www.mousetrap.net/~mouse/cbsrmt/

[Torsten Hoff]

Anytime you use a firearm defensively, you must accept that you may
cause serious injury or death to someone.

While their intent may have been to simply disable someone, the fact
that the person was killed instead should be irrelevant, because if the
result was not justified, the shooting should never have happened to
begin with.

T.

[John]

Robert P. Firriolo <lipr...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:930cve$6ai$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
# I don't have enough information to say definitively whether Glasers will
# work, or won't work. <snip>

I saw a very clear photograph of a shooting with a Glaser where all of

# pellets were stopped by a forearm. Not one got through the arm and made
# it into the vitals behind the arm.

Then after the arm is out of the way, go for center mass.
I carry a .380 with the top 6 rounds Glaser Blue. The rest of the mag is
Remington Golden Sabres. If I can't do it in 16 rounds, second mag is full
of the Remingtons, too. As was said in a different thread, but still
appropriate, shoot till they stop or you run out of bullets. John

[William Barwell]

In article <930dbs$6dt$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Guess Who? <DonLa...@webtv.net> wrote:
# About 10 or 12 years ago, the Calif. Dept. of Corrections tried
#using H&K 9mm carbines with Glasers, instead of Mini-14s to avoid
#ricochets in the steel & concrete prison setting.
# They stopped after a couple of years, because too many shots intended
#to disable ended up being fatal.
# I used a 9mm Glaser once to finnish off a deer that ran into my car.
#At close range, the effect was dramatic - and ghastly! I'm one of those
#who has Glasers for the 1st two rounds in a Sig 28.....
# Don

Some years ago here, we had an ex-Alberta officer
whose department had use Magsafes for awhile.
There were very effective but because of the damage done
by these, were deemed politically incorrect it seems.

Wounds with pre-frags are rather ugly.

Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope of Houston
Slack!

[SteelPig]

So the Glaser SS did its job here.
The Glaser was originally designed with this effect in mind.
Not sending a high speed projectile through a wall, door, or other barrier.
So as not to frag unsuspecting innocents on the other side of the wall if
you miss your intended target.
I had some Glasers in 380, 44Mag and .308 Win yes that is a rifle round.

<I Think the 308 had snipers in mind. Head shots without exiting.>

After they had sat for more than 5 years I rotated them out of service and
took them on a hunting trip.
308 ACP turned a squirrel into pink mist and nearly Vaporized it.
44 Mag left nothing but ears to part of the skull to be found of a tail shot
on a Jack rabbit.
308 Outright Vaporized the squirrel that decided to sunbathe on a big flat
rock.
Nothing left but a wet spot.
Still have some left and will use them sparingly for entertainment value.
May I will see if I can buy some sickly goats or sheep.

"James Sullivan" <fir...@tir.com> wrote in message
news:3A47D3C2...@tir.com...
> ...

[JOHN GARAND]

ON 3 Jan 2001 18:35:10 -0500, "Robert P. Firriolo"
<lipr...@lycos.com> WROTE:

#I don't have enough information to say definitively whether Glasers will
#work, or won't work. But something I saw recently left enough doubt in
#my mind that I have swapped them out of the magazines and speedloaders
#in which I had previously loaded Glasers for in-home use.
#
#I saw a very clear photograph of a shooting with a Glaser where all of
#pellets were stopped by a forearm. Not one got through the arm and made
#it into the vitals behind the arm.
#
#It is widely known that intermediate objects are a real possibility in a
#defensive shooting, most typically consisting of an arm or hand.
#Glasers simply do not have the penetration to defeat an intermediate
#object and proceed through to reach vital organs.
#
#In a straight-on torso shot on a lightly clothed individual, they
#probably will work fine. But since I can't choose my attacker, much
#less the circumstances of the shooting (God forbid), I choose
#conventional JHP ammo with reliable penetration and (hopefully)
#controlled expansion.
#
#Plus, I don't have to pay through the nose for the risky proposition of
#prefragmented bullets.

Is the moral of the story don't use pre-fragmented ammo, or don't fire
one round and then stop to assess the effect? Sorry, couldn't
resist that. :-))

Your last reason is sufficient reason to use some other ammo.

[Alex Clayton]

So I guess if a couple rouge rabbits and squirrels start doing some home
invasions glassers are the way to go ??? <G>

ro...@dingos.net (SteelPig)
>wrote:

I had some Glasers in 380, 44Mag and .308 Win yes that is a rifle round.
<I Think the 308 had snipers in mind. Head shots without exiting.>
After they had sat for more than 5 years I rotated them out of service
and took them on a hunting trip.
308 ACP turned a squirrel into pink mist and nearly Vaporized it. 44 Mag
left nothing but ears to part of the skull to be found of a tail shot on
a Jack rabbit.
308 Outright Vaporized the squirrel that decided to sunbathe on a big
flat rock.
Nothing left but a wet spot.
Still have some left and will use them sparingly for entertainment
value. May I will see if I can buy some sickly goats or sheep.

#"You can have peace.Or you can have freedom.
# Don't ever count on having both at once."
#Lazarus Long

[Robert P. Firriolo]

Mulroymedia wrote:

# They make them in .25 auto and .32 auto and .380.

Good point. I don't know the caliber. I assumed it was 9x19mm, but I
can't back that up. Also, on second look, a few fragments did penetrate
through to the chest, but those wounds were pretty superficial.

--

MOLON LABE.

- Leonidas of Sparta, 480 B.C.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Jim]

Then again, the main question is, did it stop the bad guy right away?
Jim

Robert P. Firriolo wrote in message <934r5b$jo2$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
> ...

[Mulroymedia]

Is the moral of the story don't use pre-fragmented ammo, or don't fire
one round and then stop to assess the effect? Sorry, couldn't
resist that. :-))

#>>>>>>>
Only a total FOOL would shoot one or two shots and stop to evaluate. Good lord
is there no common sense. You shoot until the threat goes away.

[Charlie Dilks]

in article 934r2j$jn3$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu, JOHN GARAND at
GARAND_...@HOTMAIL.COM wrote on 1/5/01 11:00 AM:

# Is the moral of the story don't use pre-fragmented ammo, or don't fire
# one round and then stop to assess the effect? Sorry, couldn't
# resist that. :-))

I stopped using them for defense early on after reading about what heavy
clothing would do to them.

I believe I found a perfect use for them. Some years ago there was a problem
with rabid raccoons at my shooting range. A group of people doing
maintenance were attacked until one of them could get to his car and get a
shotgun.

After I heard that I carried my .357 on my hip loaded with Glasers. I
figured they would be perfect for shots toward the hard clay ground without
much fear of riccochets. We weren't supposed to carry loaded guns around,
but during the rabies scare nobody minded. There was usually nobody there
but me anyway. Not because of the rabies, that's the way the range is on
weekdays.

--
Charlie Dilks Newark, DE USA

[Rick]

"Alex Clayton" <Alex...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:934r4r$jns$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
# So I guess if a couple rouge rabbits and squirrels start doing some home
# invasions glassers are the way to go ??? <G>

What would rabbits and squirrels be doing wearing rouge???

[RSE]

I've never understood a firearms range that prohibited folks from carrying
loaded guns. Must be run by Sarah Brady.

Charlie Dilks wrote:

> ...

[Mulroymedia]

I stopped using them for defense early on after reading about what heavy
clothing would do to them.

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"after reading...." That should tell you right off your sources was highly
suspect. Dump the gun rags. Of course they did not document a single case.
Just printed some more urban legends.

I believe I found a perfect use for them. Some years ago there was a problem
with rabid raccoons at my shooting range. A group of people doing
maintenance were attacked until one of them could get to his car and get a
shotgun.

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Shotgun shell .20 cents...Glaser $2.00

[Robert P. Firriolo]

In rec.guns, "Jim" <jimb...@cruisemates.com> wrote:

#Then again, the main question is, did it stop the bad guy right away?
#Jim

Good question. I simply don't know the answer. But to me, no arm
shot is a reliable "stopper." I think it is safe to say that bullets
that can't penetrate an arm are unlikely to be reliable stoppers when
an arm or other intermediate target is hit.

--

MOLON LABE.

- Leonidas of Sparta, 480 B.C.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Alex Clayton]

More than likely they have liability insurance. If some idiot shoots
another patron accidentally some lawyer would of course want to sue the
range. Insurance would pay off one time, cancel coverage. Then you would
have no more range.

rs...@uswest.net (RSE)
>wrote:

I've never understood a firearms range that prohibited folks from
carrying loaded guns. Must be run by Sarah Brady.
Charlie Dilks wrote:

#"You can have peace.Or you can have freedom.
# Don't ever count on having both at once."
#Lazarus Long

[Charlie Dilks]

in article 937clo$rgu$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu, Mulroymedia at mulro...@aol.com
wrote on 1/6/01 10:12 AM:

# Shotgun shell .20 cents...Glaser $2.00

Glaser: On my hip
Shotgun: Somewhere else

--
Charlie Dilks Newark, DE USA

[Charlie Dilks]

in article 3A56830D...@uswest.net, RSE at rs...@uswest.net wrote on
1/5/01 11:00 PM:

# I've never understood a firearms range that prohibited folks from carrying
# loaded guns. Must be run by Sarah Brady.

At most ranges it would be unthinkable to have a loaded gun on your hip.
There are necessarily strict rules for having muzzles pointed down range at
all times, all actions open except when shooting etc. It's a matter of
safety. Nothing at all political.

The range I was discussing is out in the boonies and when I go, there are
usually no other shooters. If there were others there, hip carry of a loaded
firearm would be unacceptable. The only time someone showed up when I was
carrying was a neighbor who routinely "kept an eye on the range." I was a
very safety conscious NRA range officer at another range and even =I= always
thought of him as a meddling PITA. Even he thought the Glasers on my hip
were a good idea for the temporary problem.

During that time, when they had matches, someone was assigned "shotgun
detail."

--
Charlie Dilks Newark, DE USA

[David Rackley]

Hum, loaded gun in holster on hip seems safer than someone walking
around with a shotgun.

Would think range rules would prohibit handling of said handgun
except at the firing line.

Dave

Charlie Dilks wrote:
> ...

[Julius Chang]

Charlie Dilks wrote in message <937par$t5i$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#in article 3A56830D...@uswest.net, RSE at rs...@uswest.net wrote on
#1/5/01 11:00 PM:
#
## I've never understood a firearms range that prohibited folks from
carrying
## loaded guns. Must be run by Sarah Brady.
#
#At most ranges it would be unthinkable to have a loaded gun on your hip.
#There are necessarily strict rules for having muzzles pointed down range at
#all times, all actions open except when shooting etc. It's a matter of
#safety. Nothing at all political.

What is so "unthinkable" about a hot range? These so-called
"necessarily strict rules" in no way conflict with carrying a loaded
gun on your hip.

If the gun is holstered, what's the problem? If you draw properly,
aim in downrange, and fire in a safe direction, and reholster,
then what's the problem?

The problem may not be "political" but it is certainly ignorant.
And often hypocritical. I've seen more than one range that
doesn't allow customers to carry loaded, yet the employees
are all packing. How is this any different from a Fed gov't that
doesn't trust you with a gun?

#The range I was discussing is out in the boonies and when I go, there are
#usually no other shooters. If there were others there, hip carry of a
loaded
#firearm would be unacceptable. The only time someone showed up when I was

Sounds like a operator training problem to me. There are
few things more dangerous than an 'unloaded' gun and
the poor gun handling often associated with these 'safe'
guns.

Funny how NRA's own range at their headquarters allows
loaded guns on shooters's hips while on the range.

Julius

[Mulroymedia]

Good question. I simply don't know the answer. But to me, no arm
shot is a reliable "stopper." I think it is safe to say that bullets
that can't penetrate an arm are unlikely to be reliable stoppers when
an arm or other intermediate target is hit.

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The heart and lungs are two inches below the surface of the skin. I hope you
don't think Glaser spent all that money on R&D and came up with a klinker of an
idea. Street results and posts on rec.guns shows they are very effective. Don't
forget HP slugs fail also on a regular basis.

[RSE]

Charlie Dilks wrote:

# in article 3A56830D...@uswest.net, RSE at rs...@uswest.net wrote on
# 1/5/01 11:00 PM:
#
# # I've never understood a firearms range that prohibited folks from carrying
# # loaded guns. Must be run by Sarah Brady.
#
# At most ranges it would be unthinkable to have a loaded gun on your hip.
# There are necessarily strict rules for having muzzles pointed down range at
# all times, all actions open except when shooting etc. It's a matter of
# safety. Nothing at all political.

Sarah Brady and friends would agree with you. It is always about safety.
Sheesh. That is BS, meant in the nicest possible way, but think about it.

# The range I was discussing is out in the boonies and when I go, there are
# usually no other shooters.

Even more reason to be armed.

# If there were others there, hip carry of a loaded
# firearm would be unacceptable.

Why? What is so dangerous about a loaded fire arm on someone's hip.

# The only time someone showed up when I was
# carrying was a neighbor who routinely "kept an eye on the range." I was a
# very safety conscious NRA range officer at another range and even =I= always
# thought of him as a meddling PITA. Even he thought the Glasers on my hip
# were a good idea for the temporary problem.

If you are trusted for the "temporary problem" why not for the unforeseen
problem? Like the gang bangers that want to pick up some free guns and ammo for
example. Or the nut job that waits for everyone to be empty, pulls his loaded
weapon and blows you all away. Another great "Gun Free Zone" idea. Or the
rabid raccoon that goes for your leg while your fumbling around with an unloaded
weapon.

# During that time, when they had matches, someone was assigned "shotgun
# detail."

Oh great. What the H does that mean. "Someone"? Who do you trust to shoot the
coon off you leg?

# --
# Charlie Dilks Newark, DE USA

I'm sorry Charlie but if you and clubs/ranges buy into this kind of thinking you
are buying into the gun owners are dangerous and irresponsible argument and you
might as well pack it in. What is next no real bullets, they are dangerous you
know.

Compromise, compromise, compromise. Oops nothing left to compromise.

Just think about it. I feel safer with a loaded gun on my hip than in a "Gun
Free Zone".

[Charlie Dilks]

in article 3A57B71F...@flash.net, David Rackley at drac...@flash.net
wrote on 1/6/01 9:25 PM:

# Hum, loaded gun in holster on hip seems safer than someone walking
# around with a shotgun.

Not really, the shotgunner was on patrol for coons. A dedicated task much
better accomplished by a guard than a "shooter" who was paying attention to
the targets. Since the shooter had protection there was no reason to break
the rules by carrying.

If there was a group, the shotgunner was the better idea. When I was alone I
carried the Glasers.

# Would think range rules would prohibit handling of said handgun
# except at the firing line.

They did. Read the previous posts.

--
Charlie Dilks Newark, DE USA

[Charlie Dilks]

in article 938jom$2rr$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu, Julius Chang at
jch...@alum.mit.edu wrote on 1/6/01 9:20 PM:

# What is so "unthinkable" about a hot range? These so-called
# "necessarily strict rules" in no way conflict with carrying a loaded
# gun on your hip.

Of course rules vary from range to range. I've belonged to five in this area
and they all had the rule of "no loaded firearms behind the firing line."
That was a rule at the range where I was a RO. I wouldn't have had it any
other way. If I'm runnin' herd on 20 people with the usual sprinkling of
inepts and genuine bozos, I want all muzzles pointed down range and no
loaded guns behind the firing line.

# If the gun is holstered, what's the problem? If you draw properly,
# aim in downrange, and fire in a safe direction, and reholster,
# then what's the problem?

I don't understand your point. Do you go to a range that allows "off the
street people" to do this? Fine. I'll stay away thank you.

--
Charlie Dilks Newark, DE USA

[Julius Chang]

Charlie Dilks wrote in message <938rh4$3qi$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#in article 938jom$2rr$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu, Julius Chang at
#jch...@alum.mit.edu wrote on 1/6/01 9:20 PM:
#
## What is so "unthinkable" about a hot range? These so-called
## "necessarily strict rules" in no way conflict with carrying a loaded
## gun on your hip.
#
#Of course rules vary from range to range. I've belonged to five in this
area
#and they all had the rule of "no loaded firearms behind the firing line."
#That was a rule at the range where I was a RO. I wouldn't have had it any
#other way. If I'm runnin' herd on 20 people with the usual sprinkling of
#inepts and genuine bozos, I want all muzzles pointed down range and no
#loaded guns behind the firing line.

Again, this is a problem with your range's TRAINING
of its members. I recommend you fix that ASAP.
Because what you are saying is that your members
are UNSAFE with firearms and can't figure out how
to handle loaded guns safely.

You are also now confusing your original complaint
of carrying a loaded gun on your hip with a far more
general fear of "loaded guns behind the firing line".

Here's a clue. In the real world of self-defense and
CCW, there is no "line". If you live in a CCW state,
I recommend staying indoors for your own safety.
There might be "genuine bozos" with guns walking about.

## If the gun is holstered, what's the problem? If you draw properly,
## aim in downrange, and fire in a safe direction, and reholster,
## then what's the problem?
#
#I don't understand your point. Do you go to a range that allows "off the
#street people" to do this? Fine. I'll stay away thank you.

NRA Range, NRA Headquarters, Fairfax VA. Make sure
to avoid it. It's a dangerous place. There are loaded
guns being carried on the range by members "off
the street".

WSI, Bellevue WA.
Wade's Eastside Guns, Bellevue WA.
North Whidbey Sportsman's, Whidbey Island WA.

Three more dangerous ranges with members carrying
loaded guns. How terrifying.

I guess you must be quite fearful of walking the streets
in states with liberal CCW laws too. Don't go to Vermont.
Anyone "off the street" can carry.

Julius

[Charlie Dilks]

in article 93a2ij$6hh$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu, Julius Chang at
jch...@alum.mit.edu wrote on 1/7/01 10:38 AM:

# Again, this is a problem with your range's TRAINING
# of its members. I recommend you fix that ASAP.

The ranges I go to are private shooting clubs with no training of members.
You may have time to worry about the operation of clubs you will never
belong to, but it bores me.

You do your thing, I'll do mine.

Farewell all.

--
Charlie Dilks Newark, DE USA

[Charlie Dilks]

I said, in a previous post:

# Not really, the shotgunner was on patrol for coons. A dedicated task much
# better accomplished by a guard than a "shooter" who was paying attention to
# the targets. Since the shooter had protection there was no reason to break
# the rules by carrying.

I said in a later post that I was tired of discussing the rules of the
ranges I belong to. I do want to clear one thing up, especially after my
wording in the above paragraph. I meant carrying a loaded gun around on my
hip. I didn't mean "carrying."

To my knowledge CCW was never addressed in my RO training. My last refresher
course was around 10 years ago, shortly before DuPont sold the site the
range was on. They also lost a brutal golf course. I don't remember
specifically, but IMO, it never would have been brought up by any range
officer I knew, and that was a few. A "C" in CCW means "concealed." Nobody
is supposed to know you have it. You are not going to touch it. It's there
for a purpose and that purpose is unlikely to arise at a range. Then if it
does, be glad you have it.

Now I'm done. ;)

[JOHN GARAND]

ON 5 Jan 2001 19:29:05 -0500, Charlie Dilks <cdi...@bellatlantic.net>
WROTE:

#I stopped using them for defense early on after reading about what heavy
#clothing would do to them.

If penetration of heavy clothing is an issue, as it is a significant
part of the year for that part of the country north of the Mason Dixon
line, there should be concerns with much of the ammunition designed
for defensive purposes. The ammunition has improved over the years,
but expansion is still somewhat questionable after JHPs pass through
heavy clothing (depending on what the clothing is made from). Of
course when the HP clogs with material from the clothing, it aids in
penetration.

[William Barwell]

In article <3A56830D...@uswest.net>, RSE <rs...@uswest.net> wrote:
#I've never understood a firearms range that prohibited folks from carrying
#loaded guns. Must be run by Sarah Brady.

No, ususally run by folks that had seen bad things happen
when over eager jerks with loaded guns do stupid things.

Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope of Houston
Slack!

[Dean Speir]

Darrell Mulroy <mulro...@aol.com> responds...

# #> My understanding of the early studies was that they make a mess of
# #> bare skin, but that's about it - they never penetrate beyond the skin.

# > You have NO clue what you are talking about and suggest you
# > do some research and stop getting info from a bartender.

Uh oh... I think we're in for a bumpy ride....

> The slug is a ONE piece affair, leaves the gun in ONE piece, arrives
# in ONE piece and enters the skin where the jacket starts to open up
# and dumps into the tissue 300 or so pellets that lacerate flesh,
# muscle and in the process causes massive bleeding from the
# damage that is all but impossible to repair by surgery unless there
# is time (seldom is) to debride massive amounts of tissue and
# reconstruct the area. In the case of lungs, heart and area around
# them this will never happen even if you shoot the person on the
# operating table.

Seriously, Darrell, I think you're gonna confuse some people here. I was
under the impression that you were on the record (along with the goat papers
being a hoax and anyone still writing in the "gun rags" is a fraud), that
Glasers (and the evolutionary MagSafes) are ineffectual as anti-personnel
rounds.

> They were designed in the 1970's to take out airplane
# hijackers and no penetrate the metal skin of an aircraft.

Please provide your cite for this assertion.

#> They do NOT have the momentum for any significant penetration.
#> I would NEVER waste putting them as the first two rounds (or ANY
#> rounds) in a carry weapon. It's as stupid as firing warning shots.

# And as for warning shots, they are mandated by many LE agencies
# and/or not prohibited by most who do not have a policy on the issue.
# Many states (Minn included) regard warning shots as part of the
# escalation of force doctrine.

I would like to know some of the "many LE agencies" which "mandate" the
firing of "warning shots."

# So now you have two subjects to look
# into. Looks like 2001 is off to a tough start.

Perhaps it is, but I think more for you. Simply as a matter of protocol,
when you assert something as broadly and definitively as you have here, and
then invite someone to "look into" the subject matter, I think it
appropriate that you provide verifiable cites or working sites where you
found your information, or upon which you are basing your contentions.

Not to re-open a gaping wound, but you will prehaps recall last February
when you were challenged on some issues regarding your credibility and
finally provided cites, Julius Chang (as I recollect) did the research and
found that those sources either did not support your contention, or in some
instances, didn't exist.

I look forward to an unequivocal response...

--
- Dean Speir <Dean...@thegunzone.com>
Industry Intelligencer / Firearms Fourth Estate
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
It's not a perfect world... it's why we _have_ guns!

The most current version of the Glock kB! FAQ
is at http://www.thegunzone.com

[Alex Clayton]

Couple nice ranges there. There is also the Bulls Eye in Pierce CO.
I shoot there a lot. The rules there are all guns must be holstered or
un loaded. They do not allow drawing from a holster on the range. Yes in
the real world you need this kind of practice. Also in the real world
there are a lot of idiots. Any range that is public and is owned by a
private party can be sued.
Wade's has had a problem with people killing themselves on the range.
One was a guy who shot himself in the chest while in the bathroom. They
listed this as a suicide but I would be willing to bet this was an inept
person walking around with a loaded gun.
It's a shame ranges have to have so many rules but that's just life
with a country full of lawyers circling and looking for someone to sue.

jch...@alum.mit.edu (Julius Chang)
>wrote:

        Here's a clue. In the real world of self-defense
and   CCW, there is no "line". If you live in a CCW state,   I
recommend staying indoors for your own safety.   There might be
"genuine bozos" with guns walking about.

>snip

        WSI, Bellevue WA.
    Wade's Eastside Guns, Bellevue WA.
        North Whidbey Sportsman's, Whidbey Island WA.
        Three more dangerous ranges with members
carrying   loaded guns. How terrifying.
        I guess you must be quite fearful of walking the
streets   in states with liberal CCW laws too. Don't go to Vermont.
  Anyone "off the street" can carry.
        Julius

#"You can have peace.Or you can have freedom.

# Don't ever count on having both at once."
#Lazarus Long

[NIC (THE SHOOTIST)]

Julius,
Could you be a little "more to the point" in your responses????? :^) :^) <G>

[hdcv...@my-deja.com]

In article <92fogi$mai$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
mulro...@aol.com (Mulroymedia) wrote:
# It's a handful, and if the attacker is still
# comin' at you after 1 round, empty the cylinder.
# ________________
# That's the rule for any gun or caliber. There is
no limit.

NEVER, EVER empty your gun in a fight - there is nothing worse than
standing there facing shots being taken at you with an empty gun - It
happened to me and I was lucky - very lucky to get away - Please, please
- only empty if a full mag/speedloader is on hand...

Hunter

Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/

[Mulroymedia]

Seriously, Darrell, I think you're gonna confuse some people here. I was
under the impression that you were on the record (along with the goat papers
being a hoax and anyone still writing in the "gun rags" is a fraud), that
Glasers (and the evolutionary MagSafes) are ineffectual as anti-personnel
rounds.

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The goat thingee is still a fraud and anyone can fess up one ounce of proof and
become a hero. Even Sanow ignores any attempt to prove their validity. And gun
rags have little validity. I find far more here on rec.guns. But then again
nobody here is selling much or has much to gain. The continuing slide of
readership of gun rags kinda says something.

> They were designed in the 1970's to take out airplane
# hijackers and no penetrate the metal skin of an aircraft.

Please provide your cite for this assertion.
#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Mr. Canon at Glaser? They were used by Sky Marshal's. Remember those? Or do
you think they used Super Vel's?

#> They do NOT have the momentum for any significant penetration.
#> I would NEVER waste putting them as the first two rounds (or ANY
#> rounds) in a carry weapon. It's as stupid as firing warning shots.

# And as for warning shots, they are mandated by many LE agencies
# and/or not prohibited by most who do not have a policy on the issue.
# Many states (Minn included) regard warning shots as part of the
# escalation of force doctrine.

I would like to know some of the "many LE agencies" which "mandate" the
firing of "warning shots."
#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You need to get out more. Almost every state Corrections agency when used to
stop fleeing prisoners in various compounds when safe to do so. And it is an
issue of how many have NO rules or regs prohibiting them. I just got another PD
manual and NO PLACE does it say you can't use a warning shot and this is in a
department of about 100 officers. When I asked they seemed a little baffled
that it wasn't there. They "assumed" it was. In Minnesota case law a recent
case said a warning shot was a part of the "escalation of force" doctrine. In
Texas two cases didn't see a problem with them. In fact read June 1998 Law &
Order Magaine and I list the cases etc.

# So now you have two subjects to look
# into. Looks like 2001 is off to a tough start.

Perhaps it is, but I think more for you. Simply as a matter of protocol,
when you assert something as broadly and definitively as you have here, and
then invite someone to "look into" the subject matter, I think it
appropriate that you provide verifiable cites or working sites where you
found your information, or upon which you are basing your contentions.

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Asking a poster to rec.guns to research, investigate and seek out info on a
subject is hardly a topic worth feeling sorry for. In fact, I would encourage
it on other issues as well versus regurgitating stuff from marginal sources.
Back to the goat thing.

Not to re-open a gaping wound, but you will prehaps recall last February
when you were challenged on some issues regarding your credibility and
finally provided cites, Julius Chang (as I recollect) did the research and
found that those sources either did not support your contention, or in some
instances, didn't exist.

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I can't help it if he didn't contact me for the info. It sure helps to go to
the source.
Another fellow said he would and never did.
Care to take a crack at it?

I look forward to an unequivocal response...

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hey I have a pip on another subject. Involves testimony of a case in Detroit
two years ago in which a cop was convicted and the expert witness helped. I got
the court testimony. You'd love it.

--

[Robert P. Firriolo]

Mulroymedia wrote three very silly things:

# The heart and lungs are two inches below the surface of the skin.

True, but you overlook that there are some pretty tough structures
between that skin and those organs. Or are Glaser pellets smart enough
to navigate around the sternum and ribs?

#I hope you
# don't think Glaser spent all that money on R&D and came up with a klinker of an
# idea.

Oh yeah, we all know that product performance is always directly
proportional to the amount of money spent developing the product. Like
the Apple III, the Titanic, the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, the de Havilland
Comet, the Malpasset Dam, Mariner 1, the Union Carbide chemical plant at
Bhopal, the shuttle Challenger, and Chernobyl.

#Street results and posts on rec.guns shows they are very effective. Don't
# forget HP slugs fail also on a regular basis.

Beacuse HPs may fail is not an argument in support of using frangible
ammo.

--

MOLON LABE.

- Leonidas of Sparta, 480 B.C.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Douglas A. Gwyn]

A couple of years ago I included Glaser Safety Slugs and other
frangible bullet designs in my testing of commercial .40S&W loads.
The Safety Slugs definitely did not penetrate very far, and I'd
expect them to be relatively ineffective in typical self-defense
shooting applications. They would make a sizeable entry wound
but might not reach vital organs, depending on circumstances.
The main use I see for Safety Slugs is for carry on an airplane
or other environment where one wants to minimize the chance of
poking holes in the surroundings.

[Sam A. Kersh]

JOHN GARAND <GARAND_...@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

#ON 5 Jan 2001 19:29:05 -0500, Charlie Dilks <cdi...@bellatlantic.net>
#WROTE:
#
##I stopped using them for defense early on after reading about what heavy
##clothing would do to them.
#
#If penetration of heavy clothing is an issue, as it is a significant
#part of the year for that part of the country north of the Mason Dixon
#line, there should be concerns with much of the ammunition designed
#for defensive purposes. The ammunition has improved over the years,
#but expansion is still somewhat questionable after JHPs pass through
#heavy clothing (depending on what the clothing is made from). Of
#course when the HP clogs with material from the clothing, it aids in
#penetration.

And that deeper penetration can bring on another problem; the
unintentional injury of someone down range. Winchester made that design
blunder when they came out with their 230 .45ACP Subsonics originally.
The round gave a 32 inch penetration in the FBI tests. Considering that
a human body is only about 10-12 inches thick, this was a disaster
waiting to happen.

Sam A. Kersh
NRA Endowment Member
L.E.A.A. Life Member
TSRA Life Member
GOA, JPFO, SAF
http://www.flash.net/~csmkersh/
===============================================================
This is why liberals get so fearful of guns. They fear that if they hadn't
been born rich, white, and privileged, that they would be that criminal.

Clayton Cramer, author

Read Jeff Snyder's unabridged analysis of the S&W/HUD sellout
at http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/jeffsnyder.html

[Julius Chang]

Charlie Dilks wrote in message <93bh8p$ahp$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#in article 93a2ij$6hh$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu, Julius Chang at
#jch...@alum.mit.edu wrote on 1/7/01 10:38 AM:
#
## Again, this is a problem with your range's TRAINING
## of its members. I recommend you fix that ASAP.
#
#The ranges I go to are private shooting clubs with no training of members.
#You may have time to worry about the operation of clubs you will never
#belong to, but it bores me.

If safety bores you, as an RO, I can see why your range
is populated with unsafe shooters.

Here's some free training.

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything that you are
not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights
are on the target.
4. Always be sure of your target and what is behind
and beyond it.

Safety is so very complicated. I almost ran out of fingers
on my hand to count the number of rules to remember.

Julius

[Julius Chang]

Mulroymedia wrote in message <93cg36$d1a$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#Not to re-open a gaping wound, but you will prehaps recall last February
#when you were challenged on some issues regarding your credibility and
#finally provided cites, Julius Chang (as I recollect) did the research and
#found that those sources either did not support your contention, or in some
#instances, didn't exist.
##>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
#I can't help it if he didn't contact me for the info. It sure helps to go
to
#the source.

You have cited on rec.guns the June 1998 issue of Law & Order
for some article related to fright or genetics. You provided the
reference cite yourself. There is no need to contact you for the
info.

I went to the June 1998 issue of L&O.

Guess what? Your reference was BOGUS.

What's the title of this fright gene article that you are
citing in the June 1998 L&O issue? Quick, make up
something plausible-sounding.

Julius

[Mulroymedia]

Safety is so very complicated. I almost ran out of fingers
on my hand to count the number of rules to remember.
Julius

#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
you also run out of fingers counting the dead and wounded cops from AD's. Two
in one day in Colorado recently within a few miles of each other.