Ar15 caliber and barrel advice
bobfrombutler
target shooting this gun at 200 yds or more. Should I go with 223 or
204. Also any advice on barrel makers? I am thinking Lilja or Shilen.
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John Kepler
> ...
"Casual" shooting or real sanctioned competition? BTW, "real"
competition Highpower shooting BEGINS at 200 yds and ends out around
1000!
Should I go with 223 or
> ...
Thousands of people shoot .223 in competition all the way out to 1000
yds....what the hell is a "204"? A .223 is the "real deal" with an
extensive performance history, everything else is a "wanna be"!
Also any advice on barrel makers? I am thinking Lilja or Shilen.
I'm not sure Lilja even cuts an AR barrel and I wouldn't have a Shilen
if you gave it to me! You missed the biggest and best producer of
quality AR barrels....Jack Krieger! Almost as good for less money is
a Frank White (Compass Lake Eng.) tube, particularly his 4140 barrels.
John
> ...
D2
> ...
223 will shoot out to 200 yds or more and will be much cheaper to
shoot than 204. Don't know about the barrel makers
Good Luck
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
# what the hell is a "204"?
Here you go -
http://www.204ruger.com/204_Ruger_sierra.pdf
sta...@prolynx.com
# On Nov 19, 10:56�pm, bobfrombutler <bakenn...@zoominternet.net> wrote:
# �> ...
#
# 223 will shoot out to 200 yds or more and will be much cheaper to
# shoot than 204. �Don't know about the barrel makers
#
# Good Luck
#
Check the price of .204 bullets, you'll be surprised. A couple bucks
per 100 cheaper where I'm at. Shilen seems to be pulling only .308
and .223 buttons, have been waiting on one of their .204 barrels since
Feb. Check Midway for availability. I'm talking varmint and match-
grade bullets here, not pseudo-surplus FMJs in 5.56/.223.
As for the previous poster's question about what the hell's a .204,
it's the .204 Ruger, based on a .222 Magnum case. Relatively new, but
has been around at least 5-6 years. Over 4000 fps with factory ammo
Stan
Bob Holtzman
# On Nov 19, 11:56 pm, bobfrombutler <bakenn...@zoominternet.net> wrote:
# > ...
#
# "Casual" shooting or real sanctioned competition? BTW, "real"
# competition Highpower shooting BEGINS at 200 yds and ends out around
# 1000!
#
# Should I go with 223 or
# > ...
#
# Thousands of people shoot .223 in competition all the way out to 1000
# yds....what the hell is a "204"? A .223 is the "real deal" with an
# extensive performance history, everything else is a "wanna be"!
I'm a smallbore shooter but know a bunch of highpower competitors and
hear a lot about it. From what I understand, the advantage in the .223
is in over the course shooting due to faster recoil recovery in the
rapid stages. It *has* been used at long range but it is somewhat
handicapped because of increased wind drift even with heavier bullets.
--
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
check the price of the beer"
Doug White
# As for the previous poster's question about what the hell's a .204,
# it's the .204 Ruger, based on a .222 Magnum case. Relatively new, but
# has been around at least 5-6 years. Over 4000 fps with factory ammo
Sounds like a round that will eat barrels very quickly.
Doug White
George
A friend has one and while I don't know about the barrel life the accuracy
in his AR type rifle was excellent.
I think the heavier bullets that are available for the .223 would be better
at longer distances and in the wind.
George in Las Vegas
Louis Boyd
# #
# # has been around at least 5-6 years. Over 4000 fps with factory ammo
#
# Sounds like a round that will eat barrels very quickly.
Is that a problem? If you want long barrel life shoot a 22LR or a
45-70. Barrels are made to be replaced sort of like tires. Throat
erosion is what kills barrels when the performance envelope is pushed.
There are several cartridges which only give about 1000 shot barrel
life. 17 Remington, 223 WSSM, 264 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Ultra, and 30-378
Weatherby are examples. Those can also push lighter bullets in their
calibers to 4000 fps. It's the price to be paid to go fast.
Some sports are much worse. Consider buying tires for a top fuel
dragster or a formula 1 racer.
Doug White
I've heard of some varmint cartridges that will begin to lose accuracy
after only ~ 500 rounds, depending on how fussy you are. If folks
understand the issue and are OK with that, that's up to them. I've seen
a number of shooters get all excited about some whizbang cartridge
without thinking about how often they want to pay for a rebarreling job.
I just wanted to make sure the OP had considered that possible issue.
Doug White
John Kepler
#
# Here you go -http://www.204ruger.com/204_Ruger_sierra.pdf
I reiterate....what the hell is a .204 other than just another soon to
disappear proprietary solution searching for a problem to solve!
Ain't the first, and unfortu7nately, won't be the last! The .223
ain't going away anytime soon! I rest my case!
John Kepler
# is in over the course shooting due to faster recoil recovery in the
# rapid stages.
I'm not just talking to Highpower comp shooters....I am one. If it
were just recoil Bob, then you'll have explain the pesky little
factiod that has the .223 owning every NRA/CMP record at 600 yds where
there's no "recoil" advantage, and no "rapid fire" to deal with! The .
223 is just one hell of an inherently accurate round being fired out
of one hell of an accurate rifle design (the AR). If it were just a
matter of recoil, there'd still be a fair number of .30 cals shooting
at the Nationals instead of over 97% of the rifles fired being AR's!
It *has* been used at long range but it is somewhat
# handicapped because of increased wind drift even with heavier bullets.
The AR in .223 has won every NRA Long Range Service Championship for
the last 5 years, and most of them over the last 10....I'd say it's
capable enough....I know, I have to shoot against them with an M14!
Oh....and Bob, the 90 gr. Sierra shoots 1-2 MOA closer to the wind at
1000 yds than a Sierra 180 in .308 does!
John
Bob Holtzman
# #From what I understand, the advantage in the .223
# # is in over the course shooting due to faster recoil recovery in the
# # rapid stages.
#
# I'm not just talking to Highpower comp shooters....I am one. If it
# were just recoil Bob, then you'll have explain the pesky little
# factiod that has the .223 owning every NRA/CMP record at 600 yds where
# there's no "recoil" advantage, and no "rapid fire" to deal with! The .
# 223 is just one hell of an inherently accurate round being fired out
# of one hell of an accurate rifle design (the AR). If it were just a
# matter of recoil, there'd still be a fair number of .30 cals shooting
# at the Nationals instead of over 97% of the rifles fired being AR's!
I may be missing something but that last sentence didn't make sense to
me. If it were a matter of recoil, and if the .223 has less, there would
be *fewer* .30s on the line...which is the case. That would seem to bear
out my contention. BTW I don't claim that light recoil is the *only*
advantage to the .223. It's easier to work up an accurate load.
I don't know how much of a problem shooter fatigue is in an over the
course or a day of long range but the .223 causes less of it.
#
# It *has* been used at long range but it is somewhat
# # handicapped because of increased wind drift even with heavier bullets.
#
# The AR in .223 has won every NRA Long Range Service Championship for
# the last 5 years, and most of them over the last 10....I'd say it's
# capable enough....I know, I have to shoot against them with an M14!
# Oh....and Bob, the 90 gr. Sierra shoots 1-2 MOA closer to the wind at
# 1000 yds than a Sierra 180 in .308 does!
I'll bow to your current experiemce but I thought the 6.5-284 had a lock
on long range.
--
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
"If you think you're getting free lunch,
check the price of the beer"
John Kepler
# I may be missing something but that last sentence didn't make sense to
# me. If it were a matter of recoil, and if the .223 has less, there would
# be *fewer* .30s on the line...which is the case. That would seem to bear
# out my contention.
Recoil is a part of shooting Highpower, and dealing with it is a part
of the game that experienced shooters learn to overcome. If the only
advantage the AR and the .223 had was reduced recoil, then I for one
would have NEVER shifted to it from my M14. But it isn't, which is
why I shoot an AR!
BTW I don't claim that light recoil is the *only*
# advantage to the .223. It's easier to work up an accurate load.
Huh? You want an "accurate" .308 or .30-06 load? I've got a bunch of
them...name your poison! It's no more difficult to develop an
accurate .308 or .30-06 load than it is an accurate .223....no easier
either!
#
# I don't know how much of a problem shooter fatigue is in an over the
# course or a day of long range but the .223 causes less of it
"Shoot" is also a verb, and a Highpower shooter, at least a good one,
is also an athelete. I run and hit the weightroom before and during
every season. If "shooter fatigue" becomes a factor....the shooter
need to prepare/train better!
#
# I'll bow to your current experiemce but I thought the 6.5-284 had a lock
# on long range.
The operative term was "Service Rifle", not "Match Rifle", not "Palma
Rifle"....in Service Rifle you have three choices, .223, .308, and .
30-06.....the .223 usually wins!
Asa
# ... then you'll have explain the pesky little factiod that has the .223 owning every NRA/CMP record at 600 yds...
Not correct. NRA National Records for 20 shots at 600 yards say
otherwise:
* Iron sight record. 200-20X. Not fired wih a .223.
* Iron sight Police record. 200-17X. Not fired with a .223. (I
turned in the paperwork for the previous record this shooter set -
200-16X.)
* First 600 yard iron sight service record (1967). 200-15X. Couldn't
have been fired with a .223 - not legal for competition back then.
* Second Service record. 200-15X. Predated the regular use of the
M16A2 type AR in competition.
* High Woman. 200-19X. Not fired with a .223.
* High Junior. 200-15X. Not fired with a .223.
* High Senior. 200-17X. Not fired with a .223.
# The AR in .223 has won every NRA Long Range Service Championship for
# the last 5 years.
Again, not true. Ask the 2007 winner of the Atkins Trophy (NRA LR
aggregate for Service Rifle category) what he used. It wasn't a .223.
John Kepler
> ...
Hell Asa.....the Kid that won the NRA Junior Service RIfle at the
Nationals THIS year shot clean and 17 WITH an AR.....I was there and
watched him do it!
> ...
> ...
Now....go check the results for the Farr. It WAS an AR! Ditto this
year (watched that shoot-off too!).
> ...
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Bob Holtzman
# them...name your poison! It's no more difficult to develop an
# accurate .308 or .30-06 load than it is an accurate .223....no easier
# either!
If you've ever played extensively with benchrest you wouldn't say that.
# #
# # I don't know how much of a problem shooter fatigue is in an over the
# # course or a day of long range but the .223 causes less of it
#
# "Shoot" is also a verb, and a Highpower shooter, at least a good one,
# is also an athelete. I run and hit the weightroom before and during
# every season. If "shooter fatigue" becomes a factor....the shooter
# need to prepare/train better!
Fatigue is always a factor. The less of it induced by the equipment the
better.
# #
# # I'll bow to your current experiemce but I thought the 6.5-284 had a lock
# # on long range.
#
# The operative term was "Service Rifle", not "Match Rifle", not "Palma
# Rifle"....in Service Rifle you have three choices, .223, .308, and .
# 30-06.....the .223 usually wins!
Then *say* the records are for service rifle.
--
Bob Holtzman
GPG key ID = 8D549279
If you think you're getting free lunch
check the price of the beer.
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Asa
# Now....go check the results for the Farr. �It WAS an AR! �Ditto this year (watched that shoot-off too!).
Don't need to for 2007 results:
#From the NRA ( http://www.nrahq.org/compete/nat-trophy/tro-056.pdf )
BILLY C. ATKINS TROPHY
High Service Rifle shooter in the National High Power Rifle Long Range
Championship.
2007 Winner: Joe Sopko
Spoko used either an M1 Garand in 7.62 NATO or an M1A to win this
aggregate.
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Haag Fred
# On Nov 22, 4:30�pm, John Kepler <jekep...@amplex.net> wrote:
# # Now....go check the results for the Farr. �It WAS an AR! �Ditto this year (watched that shoot-off too!).
That was some shoot-off.
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