Medical ramifications vs. GSW question
John J Ernst
with military experience, but anyone who knows the answer will do.
First, this question is only to fulfill my own curiosity. Nothing more,
nothing less.
I have heard that a bullet is relatively sterile when it leaves the barrel
of a firearm via books and other forms of media. I know from my experience
as a paramedic that the most danger of infection comes from the bullet
dragging in foreign bodies, such as clothing, et al. The part I have heard
about the sterility of the bullet I don't have a clue about.
Does anyone know the truth behind this story?
Thanks,
John Ernst
Does anyone
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Pete Stephenson
"John J Ernst" <jre...@netins.net> wrote:
# I have heard that a bullet is relatively sterile when it leaves the
# barrel of a firearm via books and other forms of media.
I've had emergency medical training, same as you, but I've never heard
of bullets being sterile or even close to sterile.
Perhaps the rear of the bullet would be sterilized by the high heat of
the burning powder, and possibly some of the sides due to the heat of
barrel friction, but I can't imagine that the non-bearing surfaces of
the bullet (i.e. the point) could be sterilized.
Now, perhaps if one were to dip the cartridge in alcohol immediately
before firing...
--
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
CH
news:cr5cd2$t7f$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
I believe the rationale behind that supposition is that the heat in the
barrel would kill any microbes or pathogens on the bullet.
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
# I have heard that a bullet is relatively sterile when it leaves the barrel
# of a firearm via books and other forms of media. I know from my experience
# as a paramedic that the most danger of infection comes from the bullet
# dragging in foreign bodies, such as clothing, et al. The part I have heard
# about the sterility of the bullet I don't have a clue about.
# Does anyone know the truth behind this story?
I doubt the very short exposure to heat is going to kill many bacteria. I have
serious doubts about how sterile a bullet would be. Somebody else made a
comment about if you wiped a bullet with alcohol: alcohol really doesn't
sterilize anything. At best the mechanical wiping removes some bacteria but
nowhere near all.
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
morts...@carolina.rr.com.barf
Nick Hull
Pete Stephenson <pete+...@heypete.com> wrote:
# In article <cr5cd2$t7f$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
# "John J Ernst" <jre...@netins.net> wrote:
#
# # I have heard that a bullet is relatively sterile when it leaves the
# # barrel of a firearm via books and other forms of media.
#
# I've had emergency medical training, same as you, but I've never heard
# of bullets being sterile or even close to sterile.
#
# Perhaps the rear of the bullet would be sterilized by the high heat of
# the burning powder, and possibly some of the sides due to the heat of
# barrel friction, but I can't imagine that the non-bearing surfaces of
# the bullet (i.e. the point) could be sterilized.
#
# Now, perhaps if one were to dip the cartridge in alcohol immediately
# before firing...
I think this idea goes back to the era of outside lubricated bullets,
which were well known for carrying infection. When the 'new inside
lubricated' bullets came it, they carried much less infection and were
considered almost sterile at the time. Our sterility standards are much
stricter today, but many bullets are left inside because as long as
there is no infection it is sometimes safer than removing them.
--
Free men own guns, slaves don't
www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
Samuel W. Heywood
# Question for anyone that has advanced medical training. Perfidly an M.D.
# with military experience, but anyone who knows the answer will do.
#
# First, this question is only to fulfill my own curiosity. Nothing more,
# nothing less.
#
# I have heard that a bullet is relatively sterile when it leaves the barrel
# of a firearm via books and other forms of media. I know from my experience
# as a paramedic that the most danger of infection comes from the bullet
# dragging in foreign bodies, such as clothing, et al. The part I have heard
# about the sterility of the bullet I don't have a clue about.
# Does anyone know the truth behind this story?
#
# Thanks,
#
# John Ernst
#
# Does anyone
Your understanding is the same as that taught to me during my training
as a medic in the Army. According to what I have been taught, no
microbes can survive the heat and accelerration of being fired through
a gun barrel.
Sam Heywood
-- USAR and MDARNG (Ret.)
-- Message handled by Pine, Version 4.61
Thomas Reynolds
#
# I doubt the very short exposure to heat is going to kill many bacteria. I
# have
# serious doubts about how sterile a bullet would be. Somebody else made a
# comment about if you wiped a bullet with alcohol: alcohol really doesn't
# sterilize anything. At best the mechanical wiping removes some bacteria
# but
# nowhere near all.
#
#
#
#
# Mortimer Schnerd, RN
Intense, short, but very high heat effect of firing a round killing bacteria
on a nonporous metal surface of a bullet should be near 100%.
Alcohol is a very good killer of bacteria as recently evidenced by several
hospitals putting in jellied alcohol dispensers in every room and making
medical personnel use them for sterilizing hands after each patient contact.
Results were a decrease in iatrogenic infections of 90%.
SpiceScoot
#Question for anyone that has advanced medical training. Perfidly an M.D.
#with military experience, but anyone who knows the answer will do.
#
#First, this question is only to fulfill my own curiosity. Nothing more,
#nothing less.
#
#I have heard that a bullet is relatively sterile when it leaves the barrel
#of a firearm via books and other forms of media. I know from my experience
#as a paramedic that the most danger of infection comes from the bullet
#dragging in foreign bodies, such as clothing, et al. The part I have heard
#about the sterility of the bullet I don't have a clue about.
#Does anyone know the truth behind this story?
#
Well, The base of the bullet would be exposed to heat in the 2000+F range.
Just for micro seconds but enough time to turn any bacteria into crispy
critters. The bearing surface of the bullet would scrub any micro life into
micro mush and I doubt that anything on the bearing surface of the bullet would
remain infective. The point of the bullet would be the only area in question.
A .223 rifle bullet is relatively smooth and leaves the bore going around 2000
mph and spinning at nearly 200,000 rpm. A bacteria has little mass but that
would be a wild ride. I would imagine that the bullet would be pretty sterile
going through the air. If it hit a sterile medium like a gauze pad or
something the outer surface of the point would be rubbed off and it would hit
flesh in a pretty sterile condition. In the real world it all goes down hill
from there. Most soldiers in combat are not too clean and everyone, even just
out of the shower, has bacteria on their skin and clothing.
Pistol bullets would be another matter, as would all ricochet and secondary
projectiles (rocks, dirt, wood splinters). These would not get as hot and
would not be subject to the same cleansing forces.
My primary method of avoiding infected gunshot wounds is to not get shot!
(you might want to check all my math as it is early on Sunday morning. 3200FPS
for the .223 round and a 1 turn in 12 BBL just to make it easy. Some of these
one turn in 7 or 8 inches would really get that bullet spinning)
Larry
Peter McMullen
# #Question for anyone that has advanced medical training. Perfidly an M.D.
# #with military experience, but anyone who knows the answer will do.
# #
# #First, this question is only to fulfill my own curiosity. Nothing more,
# #nothing less.
# #
# #I have heard that a bullet is relatively sterile when it leaves the barrel
# #of a firearm via books and other forms of media. I know from my experience
# #as a paramedic that the most danger of infection comes from the bullet
# #dragging in foreign bodies, such as clothing, et al. The part I have heard
# #about the sterility of the bullet I don't have a clue about.
# #Does anyone know the truth behind this story?
# #
# Well, The base of the bullet would be exposed to heat in the 2000+F range.
# Just for micro seconds but enough time to turn any bacteria into crispy
# critters. The bearing surface of the bullet would scrub any micro life into
# micro mush and I doubt that anything on the bearing surface of the bullet would
# remain infective. The point of the bullet would be the only area in question.
# A .223 rifle bullet is relatively smooth and leaves the bore going around 2000
# mph and spinning at nearly 200,000 rpm. A bacteria has little mass but that
# would be a wild ride. I would imagine that the bullet would be pretty sterile
# going through the air. If it hit a sterile medium like a gauze pad or
# something the outer surface of the point would be rubbed off and it would hit
# flesh in a pretty sterile condition. In the real world it all goes down hill
# from there. Most soldiers in combat are not too clean and everyone, even just
# out of the shower, has bacteria on their skin and clothing.
# Pistol bullets would be another matter, as would all ricochet and secondary
# projectiles (rocks, dirt, wood splinters). These would not get as hot and
# would not be subject to the same cleansing forces.
# My primary method of avoiding infected gunshot wounds is to not get shot!
#
# (you might want to check all my math as it is early on Sunday morning. 3200FPS
# for the .223 round and a 1 turn in 12 BBL just to make it easy. Some of these
# one turn in 7 or 8 inches would really get that bullet spinning)
# Larry
#
FWIW, I recently saw a History Channel "Battlefield
Detectives", in which they were discussing the old slow
Civil War minie ball rifles. When fired into ranks, the
heavy slow ball would often pick up debris and biological
materials it passed through one or two men in front. The
last man hit was the unlucky one, receiving the accumulated
crap from the other two.
They also mentioned that modern jacketed high velocity rifle
projectiles tend to pick up less contamination and they also
tend to over-penetrate less.
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:-)
cwbullet
deloid
"John J Ernst" <jre...@netins.net> wrote in message
news:cr5cd2$t7f$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Question for anyone that has advanced medical training. Perfidly an M.D.
# with military experience, but anyone who knows the answer will do.
#
# First, this question is only to fulfill my own curiosity. Nothing more,
# nothing less.
#
# I have heard that a bullet is relatively sterile when it leaves the barrel
# of a firearm via books and other forms of media. I know from my experience
# as a paramedic that the most danger of infection comes from the bullet
# dragging in foreign bodies, such as clothing, et al. The part I have heard
# about the sterility of the bullet I don't have a clue about.
# Does anyone know the truth behind this story?
#
# Thanks,
#
# John Ernst
Wolf AW, Benson DR, Shoji H, Hoeprich P, Gilmore A.
Following a previous study (1) in which contaminated low-velocity bullets
were discharged into sterile gelatin blocks with resultant growth of
organisms along projectile tracts, the authors fired bullets coated with 1
drop of Staph. aureus-contaminated medium and bullets under sterile
conditions into sterilized sand. Each contaminated projectile and its gun
barrel were culture positive after firing. Therefore bullets should not be
ruled out as possible sources of infection.
Paul Saccani
wrote:
#Question for anyone that has advanced medical training. Perfidly an M.D.
#with military experience, but anyone who knows the answer will do.
#
#First, this question is only to fulfill my own curiosity. Nothing more,
#nothing less.
#
#I have heard that a bullet is relatively sterile when it leaves the barrel
#of a firearm via books and other forms of media. I know from my experience
#as a paramedic that the most danger of infection comes from the bullet
#dragging in foreign bodies, such as clothing, et al. The part I have heard
#about the sterility of the bullet I don't have a clue about.
#Does anyone know the truth behind this story?
Little truth to it. There is little difference in what you culture from
bullets in unfired ammunition versus bullets recovered from a water trap and
cultured. There might be some difference in the base and sides of the bullet,
but as that is not going to make any practical difference, it isn't worth
looking at.
However, it has to be noted that there certainly are mechanisms by which high
velocity bullets have a considerably reduced bacterial loading, compared with
low velocity bullets.
See -
Penetrating Trauma to the Extremities, A. D. Dake, L. Stack.
"Infection. One of the leading causes of morbidity from PET is infection.
Microorganisms may be introduced into the wound from a number of sources.
Contrary to popular dogma, bullets are not sterilized by firing.46-48 Moreover,
bullets may acquire additional contaminants as they pass through clothing, skin,
or a hollow viscus.46,47 Temporary cavitation creates a vacuum that can draw
skin, clothing, or other contaminants into the wound from both entrance and exit
wounds.46 Finally, shotgun wadding is an important contaminant known for
producing a high rate of infection.7,38
38. Bender JS, Hoekstra SM, Levison MA. Improving outcome from extremity shotgun
injury. Am Surg 1993;59:359-364.
46. Thoresby, Maj FP, Darlow HM. The mechanisms of primary infection of bullet
wounds. Br J Surg 1967;54:359-361.
47. Tzeng S, Swan KG, Rush BF. Bullets: A source of infection. Am Surg
1982;48:239-240.
48. Wolf AW, Benson DR, Shoji H, et al. Autosterilization in low-velocity
bullets. J Trauma 1978;18:63. "
Having said that, you can expect GSW to have infective material in them
regardless of what infection the bullet may carry, and removal of bullets is
certainly not a priority, and is rarely indicated. There are far more important
materials to remove.
for a precis of current preferred management of GSW.
cheers,
Paul Saccani
Newman West Australia