Norma R-1 Powder

[csmdave]

I have a can of this obsolscent powder but no loading data. I would
like to use it for my 9mm and .380. Does anyone have loads for this
powder?
If nobody has any loads, what should I do with it?
csmdave

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[Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley]

On Oct 13, 4:10=A0am, csmdave <d.herb...@gmail.com> wrote:
# I have a can of this obsolscent powder but no loading data. I would
# like to use it for my 9mm and .380. Does anyone have loads for this
# powder?

Yes, both calibers at
http://www.tiropratico.com/ricarica/manuali/Norma%20Pistol%20Data%20Reloadi=
ng.pdf

# If nobody has any loads, what should I do with it?

Disperse it across your lawn.

[Truebrit]

#"csmdave" <d.he...@gmail.com> wrote in message
#news:j76del$ups$1...@news.albasani.net...
#I have a can of this obsolscent powder but no loading data. I would
# like to use it for my 9mm and .380. Does anyone have loads for this
# powder?
# If nobody has any loads, what should I do with it?
# csmdave
#
#

A quick search found these two loads for .45 ACP.

http://www.reloadersnest.com/query_pw_handgun.asp?CaliberID=17&Powder=Norma%20R1

--
Cheers!
Alex.C

[Truebrit]

#"csmdave" <d.he...@gmail.com> wrote in message
#news:j76del$ups$1...@news.albasani.net...
#I have a can of this obsolscent powder but no loading data. I would
# like to use it for my 9mm and .380. Does anyone have loads for this
# powder?
# If nobody has any loads, what should I do with it?
# csmdave
#
#

A more careful search found this far more comprehensive listing which
should give you all you need to know.

http://www.tiropratico.com/ricarica/manuali/Norma%20Pistol%20Data%20Reloading.pdf

--
Cheers!
Alex.C

[Robert Lewis]

None of my books show any data for it either. Looking online, all I can
find is that it is the fastest burning powder in several burn-rate charts.
Maybe someone will come up with some useful data for you. Failing that, it
does make good fertilizer for plants.

Robert

[sta...@prolynx.com]

On Oct 13, 4:10=A0am, csmdave <d.herb...@gmail.com> wrote:

# I have a can of this obsolscent powder but no loading data. I would
# like to use it for my 9mm and .380. Does anyone have loads for this
# powder?
# If nobody has any loads, what should I do with it?
# csmdave
#
I may have some loads in Pet Loads, Propellant Profiles or one of the
antique load manuals buried in the pile. It's long been discontinued
and the various charts show it as the fastest burning powder
commercially available. May not be suitable for much besides .38 Spl.
wadgun loads and the like. I've never seen any Norma powders locally
except the really slow super-magnum stuff so no factory data pamphlets
picked up.

As to how to dispose of it, you can use it like fertilizer, lots of
good nitrogen in the stuff. Same as can be done with deteriorating
powder, dump it on the lawn and/or flowers. Only as a last resort
if you can't find loads, though.

Stan

[clarkm...@gmail.com]

Fertilizer is $1/pound for 28% Nitrogen at Home Depot.
Gun powder is ~ 12 % Nitrogen.
Gun powder is then worth ~ $0.50/ pound as fertilizer.

I am paying $20 ~ $30 / pound for canister gunpowder at the gun store.

I see unknown or bulk gun powders go for $8 ~ $10 / pound.

Looking at R1 in Quickload, any Bullseye load would be so close to an R1 lo=
ad that it would be very hard to tell the difference... ~ 5%

I have tried really hard to blow up several brands of 380 and 9mm.

Some 380s can only take a 150% Bullseye load, while others with better case=
support can take a 300% load every time.
Still other 380s are in between.

In both 9mm and 380 work up loads, recoil becomes extremely obnoxious befor=
e case bulges are primer piercing occurs... usually. The cases fly a long w=
ays and the slide hits the frame so hard that the hand hurts for a long tim=
e.. usually.. But the Kel-tec P3AT has case support compromised by the fee=
d ramp to .287" from the breech face, while the case web is less than .160"=
thick. This means that the P3AT will case bulge before it even reaches the=
9mm power levels, let alone the 357 mag level that better 380s can meet an=
d exceed.

[SaPeIsMa]

So where can one see all this data about the guns you have pushed to their
limits ?

[clarkm...@gmail.com]

My overload is revealed in dribs and drabs on gun forums over the last 11 y=
ears.
I have overloaded; 19 Badger, .223, .243, 25acp, 25/35, 257 Roberts AI, 260=
Rem, 7mmRemMag, 32acp, 32sw, 32S&WLong, 32-20, 7.62x25mm, 30-30, 7.62x39mm=
7.62x54R, 8x57mm, .380, 9x19mm, 9x23mm, 357 Sig, 38 sp, 357 mag, 38sw, 40s=
w, 10mm, 10.4mm, 45acp, 45Colt, .410, and 45/70.=20
I did the bulk of 9mm testing in 2000 and the bulk of the 380 testing in 20=
10.

In 380:
The locked breech P3AT will only do 1100 fps with 90 gr Gold Dot, while a 1=
903 Browning blowback will do 1187 fps with 158 gr XTP.

In 9mm:
The 124 gr 10 gr Power pistol will chrono 1336 fps from P11 with 3.1" barre=
l.
The 158 gr 11 gr Power Pistol recoil will hurt the hand for hours.

[David R. Birch]

Not being critical, just curious:

How many guns were destroyed in this process, as in damaged beyond repair?

What percentage of the guns used were destroyed?

David

[clarkm...@gmail.com]

In 380, I bulged a 1934 Beretta chamber by a few thousands with triple load=
of Bullseye.

In 9mm, I blew the extractor out of a Kel-Tec P11 with 67% extra AA#5.


~ 5% just damaged in 19 Badger, 7mmRemMag, 308, 32acp, 32sw, 32S&WLong, =
7.62x25mm, 7.62x39mm, 380, 9mm, 38 sp, 38 S&W, 10.4mm, .410, and 12 =
ga.


~ 2% Destroyed: CZ52s, 38 specials, and 32 S&W longs. =20

It is all analogous to what his now called HAST [highly accelerated stress =
testing] that I was doing on my own electronic power designs in the 1980s. =
I blew up my prototypes, improved the failed part, and tried to go even hig=
her next time before the next explosion. From what I learned from the failu=
res, I was able to leap frog the competition.
Doing it with guns, I have been able to map out some myths in the gun cultu=
re.

[Gunner Asch]

On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 09:39:11 +0000 (UTC), "clarkm...@gmail.com"
<clarkm...@gmail.com> wrote:

#My overload is revealed in dribs and drabs on gun forums over the last 11 y=
#ears.
#I have overloaded; 19 Badger, .223, .243, 25acp, 25/35, 257 Roberts AI, 260=
# Rem, 7mmRemMag, 32acp, 32sw, 32S&WLong, 32-20, 7.62x25mm, 30-30, 7.62x39mm=
# 7.62x54R, 8x57mm, .380, 9x19mm, 9x23mm, 357 Sig, 38 sp, 357 mag, 38sw, 40s=
#w, 10mm, 10.4mm, 45acp, 45Colt, .410, and 45/70.=20
#I did the bulk of 9mm testing in 2000 and the bulk of the 380 testing in 20=
#10.
#
#In 380:
#The locked breech P3AT will only do 1100 fps with 90 gr Gold Dot, while a 1=
#903 Browning blowback will do 1187 fps with 158 gr XTP.
#
#In 9mm:
#The 124 gr 10 gr Power pistol will chrono 1336 fps from P11 with 3.1" barre=
#l.
#The 158 gr 11 gr Power Pistol recoil will hurt the hand for hours.

Id love to see your data on the 7.62x54R and the 4570

I really wish you would publish your data. Ive been fascinated by your
testing for years!

Gunner

[clarkm...@gmail.com]

Gunner,
Here is 45/70 hot:

Here is my test data:
45/70 work up with; 405 gr cast with lube bands, CCI 200 primers, Win
brass, old Unique [dirty] powder, chamber well lubricated between
firings with CLP for max bolt thrust.

Quickload calculation of pressure and velocity with 405 gr, Unique

shot 0) 15 gr, 24,700 psi, 1271 fps, no shot fired, listed for Quickload reference point only
shot 1) 18 gr, 33,217psi, 1403 fps, primer looks fine.
shot 2) 20 gr, 39,435 psi, 1485 fps, primer is fine
shot 3) 22 gr, 46,133 psi, 1563 fps, primer looks flat.
shot 4) 24 gr, 53,334 psi, 1637 fps, primer is flat.
shot 5) 26 gr, 61,067 psi, 1709 fps, primer is top hat and flowing,
action popped open and case ejected on firing
shot 6) 28 gr, 69,366 psi, 1778 fps, primer is top hat and flowing, case
head expansion .001", action popped open and case ejected on firing
shot 7) 30 gr, 78275 psi, 1846 fsp, case head expansion .0015" action
popped open and case ejected on firing, some leading in the muzzle.
shot 8) 32 gr, 87,841 psi, 1911 fps, case head expansion .0025", case head separating where case head is flowing into the extractor, action popped open, some leading in the muzzle, and case ejected on firing, primer is spreading out .010"

There was no change in headspace, but I had to stop the work up because of case head separation where the case head flowed into the extractor.

Reference loads:

1) "Loads for the 45/70" from the H.P.White laboratory via "American
Rifleman" 1950~1968 via "NRA Handloader's Guide" 1969 says:
405 gr Rem S.P., 17.5 gr Unique, 1286 fps, 25,240 pounds pressure, for 1886 Win

2) "Lyman's 47th" 1992 says:
400 gr cast, 16.5 gr Unique, 1286 fps, 27,000 cup, for 1886 Win

3) "Lyman's 47th" 1992 says:
385 cast gr cast, 17.5 gr Unique, 1411 fps, 38,500 cup, for Ruger #1

======================================================
Here is 45/70 wimpy with some free machining steel filling the 45/70 brass case, except for a 0.1" pipeline from the primer pocket to the bullet. The steel spacer is held in place with Loc-tite:

.458" 145 gr Collar button bullet Lyman mould #457130 from Western
Bullet co MT

The powder was set on top of the capacity reducer in the case.
The bullet was set on top of the powder.
The cartridge was gently lifted into the chamber while staying vertical
so the bullet would not fall off.
The action was closed and that forced the bullet into the lands.

0.6 gr Bullseye .....287 fps........ quiet
0.7 gr Bullseye .....384 fps........ quiet
0.8 gr Bullseye .....354 fps........ quiet
0.9 gr Bullseye .....388 fps........ hollow sound but quiet enough
1.0 gr Bullseye .....441 fps........ sounds like a loud pellet gun, but
no blam
1.1 gr Bullseye .....418 fps........ sounds like a loud pellet gun, but
no blam
1.2 gr Bullseye .....536 fps........ sounds like a very loud pellet gun,
but no blam

1.0 gr Bullseye ..... shot with open sights at target at 27 yards, 2"
low and 1/2" to the right.


I could hear the bullet hit the brush and dirt.
If the same shots were fired into a piece of plywood, this would be an
extremely loud gun for the situation.

[Gunner Asch]

Fascinating! Thanks much!. Ive both an 1895 Marlin and a P17 Enfield
that I rebarreled to 45-70 and have loaded the Enfield to nearly 1700
FPS using a 500 gr gas checked spitzer (cant remember the Lyman
number)..which is putting a serious strain on the brass. I had it bored
with a minimum chamber and the barrel is 30" long..looks like a goose
gun..<G>. But it shoots pretty well. 5 rounds into a nickle at 100
meters. But it IS hard on brass at those pressures. Ive always wanted to
order up some BASIC brass and see what that would do at the high ends.

What action were your high pressure loads fired from?

Gunner

[clarkm...@gmail.com]

That was a Handi Rifle 45/70.

It was in Sept 1999 that I got some help here on rec.guns to calculate the strength of that rifle.
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/rec.guns/BlTMnBlXF44

Some did not believe, so I validated with that overload testing.

[peterw...@hotmail.com]

On Oct 31, 1:06=A0pm, Gunner Asch <gunnera...@gmail.com> wrote:
# Fascinating! =A0Thanks much!. =A0Ive both an 1895 Marlin and a P17 Enfiel=
d
# that I rebarreled to 45-70 and have loaded the Enfield to nearly 1700
# FPS using a 500 gr gas checked spitzer (cant remember the Lyman
# number)..which is putting a serious strain on the brass. I had it bored
# with a minimum chamber and the barrel is 30" long..looks like a goose
# gun..<G>. But it shoots pretty well. 5 rounds into a nickle at 100
# meters. But it IS hard on brass at those pressures. Ive always wanted to
# order up some BASIC brass and see what that would do at the high ends.
#
I have noticed that on the P14 Enfield, same basic design as the P17
but
chambered for the rimmed 303 British cartridge, the extractor claw has
been
milled down to about two-thirds of the width it is on the P17. Did you
find it
necessary to do this on your P17 conversion?

Thank you,

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

[Gunner Asch]

Ayup. In fact, before doing this..buy at least 1 extra
extractor..because unless you have done this a few times...taking too
much off happens quickly.
Take your time and use a Dremel tool or a good! file. They are hard!!!!

[peterw...@hotmail.com]

On Nov 5, 2:28=A0pm, Gunner Asch <gunnera...@gmail.com> wrote:
# Ayup. In fact, before doing this..buy at least 1 extra
# extractor..because unless you have done this a few times...taking too
# much off happens quickly.
# Take your time and use a Dremel tool or a good! file. They are hard!!!!
#
Getting a bit off topic, but what is the functionality of the narrower
extractor hook on a P17 adapted for rimmed cartridges? I note that
this feature is used on both the Pattern 14 Enfield and the Siamese
Mauser, so I figure it must be related to the fact that both are
Mauser type actions modified for rimmed cartridges, but I don=92t see
why.

Thank you,

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist