Some Marines still carry proven 1911s
Tracy
Hawke wrote:
> ...
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kbellis3
personnel when it comes to handguns. While SOC and Special Operations units
may have better training when it come to using handguns, most soldier
Marines, Army, AF, Navy have little or no training when it comes to proper
handgun techniques and skills.
I can not tell you how pathetic it is to have some Army Reservist tell you
that carrying a 1911 cocked and locked in an IWB holster is dangerous. It is
even worse when his buddy who is current Regular Army agrees with him. (I
can only hope that they are in state side units that never deploys overseas,
or at least until someone actually trains them how to use handguns.)
Kyle
"Hawke" <desm...@c-zone.net> wrote in message
news:aj06tu$9qh$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
"those
Charles Winters
With my standard service load, 230 grainer at about 825 fps and a 25 yd
zero, the hold over at 100 is about 8". A lot less than some would
think. With care and a steady hold, it would be no problem hitting the
A zone most of the time. - CW
David Rackley
From: "David Wisniewski" <davi...@erols.com>
# How's that? Have you ever tried to shoot at a target 100 yards away
# with a handgun? It's not that difficult. The biggest problems is
# getting the elevation right (and making sure that the handgun is
# accurate enough). My .40 S&W 1911 can hit a 6" steel plate at 100 yards
# all day, any day. I handed it to a friend of mine who shoots very
# little and within 5 rounds, he too was hitting that plate. This gave
# him enormous confidence when shooting at close targets (which previously
# his groups were not that great).
No way! 100 yards, as in 300 feet, the length of a football field, on a 6"
target? Or to put it in better perspective, that's a grouping of 0.6" at 10
yards "all day, any day."
What's a .40 S&W 1911?
westonotto
kinda tough to say about any round short of a .50 cal
"RCM" <rhett...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:ais331$3j6$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
SLauer6165
#officers, all armed to the teeth confronting one apparently unarmed man and
#they are so terrified that they can't shoot straight. Doesn't it make you
#wonder about the caliber of the people we are giving guns to and putting out
#on the street?
Not as much as some of these posts make me wonder about people on this news
group.
fullotto
David Wisniewski
# target? Or to put it in better perspective, that's a grouping of 0.6" at 10
# yards "all day, any day."
Yup. As I said, it's pretty accurate. Doug Koenig's 38 Super Bianchi
gun built by EGW shoots 5/8" groups at 50 yards.
# What's a .40 S&W 1911?
It's a Strayer-Voigt frame, Caspian slide, Nowlin .40 S&W bushing
barrel, AFTEC extractor, BoMar sight, Ed Brown Safties, EGW internals
1911 built by EGW.
--
David Wisniewski USPSA/IPSC A-28835
davi...@erols.com http://www.geocities.com/davidwiz_2000
USPSA MidAtlantic Section http://www.uspsa-ma.org
"While we're gone, if any talking animals tell you to buy some tacos
or beer, for God's sake do what they say."
-- Casey McCall, "Sports Night"
Michael P. Brininstool
#
# If the army switched back to .45 autos, in no time at all, instead of
# hearing that these guns (9mm) don't stop the enemy, we'll be hearing, "those
# .45s are too heavy, they don't hold enough rounds, and they kick too hard
# for most people to control". You can't win.
They complain about the 1911, and don't complain about the SOCOM????
I prefer the G3 to the M4, I am willing to take the weight for better
knockdown.
--
Michael P. Brininstool mik...@hoplite.org
"Gee, I don't care if *nobody* else ever carries concealed. I carry for
*my* protection, not everyone else's. I don't care what the BG's think or
don't think, as long as I have the option of defending *myself* or *my loved
ones* with the most effective means possible, a firearm. Any other effects
are gravy and secondary to the main point, as far as I'm concerned." - Jack
Brooks , Re; Why Concealed? (in a rec.guns reply to some lame assed message
from Adam Kippes)
Bill
1953 and he's in training at Camp Roberts in CA. He's on KP duty
(again) peeling potatoes when the DI cames in and barks at them to
report to the pistol range. They get shown how to field strip the 45
auto and load it. They then "qualify" by shooting a magazine then it's
back to peeling potatoes. Elapsed time about 1-1 1/2 hour. When he got
to Korea there was a 50 cal BMG in the middle of his company where
they were dug in but nobody knew how to use it. They did practice dry
firing at oncoming tanks (with the Garand) to disable them by breaking
the tread links. Talk about a small, moving target!
What he was trained very well in was polishing boots, KP, pressing
clothes, marching in formation...real important combat stuff.
# The problem continues to be a lack of quality training for military
# personnel when it comes to handguns. While SOC and Special Operations units
# may have better training when it come to using handguns, most soldier
# Marines, Army, AF, Navy have little or no training when it comes to proper
# handgun techniques and skills.
Tom Line
day at 75 yards. At 25 yards my target looks like a riot gun hit it. Don't
debate this without trying it. 1st, the military 1911A1 has a skinnier
front sight than a "modern" wonder gun. 2nd, some kind of optical illusion
make take place at black bullseyes.
: No way! 100 yards, as in 300 feet, the length of a football field, on a 6"
: target? Or to put it in better perspective, that's a grouping of 0.6" at 10
: yards "all day, any day."
:
: What's a .40 S&W 1911?
:
:
:
:
:
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: Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com
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--
Tom Line
tl...@iglou.com
Frank Silbermann
#
# This training problem isn't new. A story from my dad:
...
# What he was trained very well in was polishing boots, KP, pressing
# clothes, marching in formation...real important combat stuff.
Military training is to train the soldier to obey orders,
even at the cost of his life. In combat, disobedience can spread,
causing disorder that gives the enemy the opportunity for a massacre.
So inculcating obedience is the overwhelming priority.
Combat skills are secondary. A soldier can learn those on the job.
True, better training might mean fewer soliders needed to accomplish
an objective, and fewer deaths. But to military planners, this is
an economic issue.
Many soldiers nevertheless tend to feel sentimental about their lives,
so they would do well to seek out opportunities to train themselves in
combat skills.
David Dyer-Bennet
# # What's the likelihood of a 100 yard shot with a 10mm Glock? A person
# # would have serious problems with shot placement that far out.
#
# How's that? Have you ever tried to shoot at a target 100 yards away
# with a handgun? It's not that difficult. The biggest problems is
# getting the elevation right (and making sure that the handgun is
# accurate enough).
Must be nice. I've never tried to shoot a handgun at a target more
than 50 or maybe 75 feet away (indoor ranges), but my experience at
that distance is such that I figure I'd be *really bad* at 6 times the
distance. This is with a Colt 1911, a Ruger Security 6, and a Glock
17 at various times.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net / New TMDA anti-spam in test
John Dyer-Bennet 1915-2002 Memorial Site http://john.dyer-bennet.net
Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/
New Dragaera mailing lists, see http://dragaera.info
Tom Line
45's from the armory to get a good one that wasn't sloppy loose wore out.
Problem is procurement and distribution, not the boys bitching, and not
the weapon being wore out. Management issue, blamed on equipment and the
boys. F#$%^&* Army.
: They complain about the 1911, and don't complain about the SOCOM????
: I prefer the G3 to the M4, I am willing to take the weight for better
: knockdown.
:
: --
: Michael P. Brininstool mik...@hoplite.org
: "Gee, I don't care if *nobody* else ever carries concealed. I carry for
: *my* protection, not everyone else's. I don't care what the BG's think or
: don't think, as long as I have the option of defending *myself* or *my loved
: ones* with the most effective means possible, a firearm. Any other effects
: are gravy and secondary to the main point, as far as I'm concerned." - Jack
: Brooks , Re; Why Concealed? (in a rec.guns reply to some lame assed message
: from Adam Kippes)
:
: -----------------------------------------------------------
: Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.com
: -----------------------------------------------------------
--
Tom Line
tl...@iglou.com
Roger A. Krupski
# here--I think both calibers have their respective merits.
It's not just the caliber... it's the weapon itself. I'll take
a Colt 1911 over an M9 any day...
Roger
--
#################################################
# Roger A. Krupski <kru...@acsu.buffalo.edu> #
# State University of New York at Buffalo #
# 408 Furnas Hall, North (Amherst) Campus #
# Amherst, New York 14260-4200, U.S.A. [H] #
#################################################
Jeff Edwards
# This training problem isn't new. A story from my dad: it's Jan/Feb
# 1953 and he's in training at Camp Roberts in CA. He's on KP duty
# (again) peeling potatoes when the DI cames in and barks at them to
# report to the pistol range. They get shown how to field strip the 45
# auto and load it. They then "qualify" by shooting a magazine then it's
# back to peeling potatoes. Elapsed time about 1-1 1/2 hour. When he got
# to Korea there was a 50 cal BMG in the middle of his company where
# they were dug in but nobody knew how to use it. They did practice dry
# firing at oncoming tanks (with the Garand) to disable them by breaking
# the tread links. Talk about a small, moving target!
# What he was trained very well in was polishing boots, KP, pressing
# clothes, marching in formation...real important combat stuff.
Sounds like my 1969 experience at Camp Pendleton's Field Med School,
where the Marines spent three weeks trying to take a bunch of us Navy
physicians and dentists ("semi-civilian SOB's") and turn us into lean
mean fighting machines in three weeks, before departing for FMF duty
in RVN. We got about an hour or two of 1911 lecture and demo, and
then off to the range for "famfire". We each put two mags of .45ACP
downrange at 25 yd targets that must have already had 50 - 100 holes
in them. Who knows how we did? Except for one Doc who bitterly
complained about the worn out bore in his .45. Claimed he could see
every one of his shots kicking up dirt halfway to the target! 8-)
Jeff Edwards
Jeff Edwards
# Here is an interesting Stars and Stripes article about Marines who still
# carry 1911s.
One wonders if the Marines have dragged their feet at giving up the
time honored .45 (as they are known to do with arms that have served
them long and well), or if this is just another example of the well
known Marine penchant for frugality in their equipment and supply
budget.
Whichever it is, I applaud them for it. I have nothing against
Berettas, but the track record of 9mm ball vs. .45 ball is long and
well known.
TenMikeMike
provided by the Navy. When I was a Marine ('77-'81) almost all the equipment
we had was a hand-me-down or bought MANY years before! Our jeeps and
deuce-and-a-halfs were purchased from REO in the 1950's!!!!! At that time
the Marines hadn't had a new pistol since WW II!!! Hell, I was using radar
gear that was a throwback to the '60's!! Computers?? We had computers that
used magnetic drum memory ( a technology that dates back to the '60's as
well!!). I guess the only reason we had M-16's was that MacNamara forced the
entire military establishment to buy the same weapons at the same time!! We
had a Hawk missile battalion attached to our command that used a weapon
system that the army had all but abandoned years before! The Marines had
upgraded them to iHawk configuration just to make them effective!!!
Any perceived frugality on the part of my Marine Corps is an enforced one
caused by bare-bones budgeting and politically-correct cutbacks!!!
Markymark
had was well used,especially the 1911's.........Hated
them................Mark
TenMikeMike <ck...@attbi.com> wrote in message
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> ...
is
> ...
equipment
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We
> ...
Jeff Edwards
# provided by the Navy. When I was a Marine ('77-'81) almost all the equipment
# we had was a hand-me-down or bought MANY years before! Our jeeps and
# deuce-and-a-halfs were purchased from REO in the 1950's!!!!! At that time
# the Marines hadn't had a new pistol since WW II!!! Hell, I was using radar
# gear that was a throwback to the '60's!! Computers?? We had computers that
# used magnetic drum memory ( a technology that dates back to the '60's as
# well!!). I guess the only reason we had M-16's was that MacNamara forced the
# entire military establishment to buy the same weapons at the same time!! We
# had a Hawk missile battalion attached to our command that used a weapon
# system that the army had all but abandoned years before! The Marines had
# upgraded them to iHawk configuration just to make them effective!!!
#
# Any perceived frugality on the part of my Marine Corps is an enforced one
# caused by bare-bones budgeting and politically-correct cutbacks!!!
Hmmmm.. Maybe. OTOH, I recall chow hall table conversation with the
11th Marine (artillery) regimental CO in An Hoa, RVN, 1969. His last
assignment, he said, had been in Marine Supply in the Pentagon. 90%
of the budget went for ordnance, according to him. Also, he claimed,
there were those in the Marine Corps top brass who felt duty bound to
return a budget "surplus" to the government each year. I can't attest
that these are true facts; only that it's what the man said.
#From first hand expeience though, I can verify that in the 5th Marine
supply system, you could get utilities in small short and large long
about any time, but the snuffies in the field had to bribe the base
laundry personnel to hijack normal size utilities to replace those
worn out in the bush.
Most of the regiment's jeeps were sidelined during the monsoon because
the mud ate up brake linings and tire inner tubes (remember those?)
that could not be readily replaced. Our leading petty officer scoured
division supply in DaNang before he came up with a fan belt for our
jeep. There was not a jeep front differential to be found. My buddy
used contacts at the AF Evac Hospital in DanNang to have one choppered
down. Special delivery from a drinking buddy based on a patched thru
field phone call. ("Are you sure you only need one...??")
Everyone in the rear had rain suits and so did an awfully lot of the
local indigenous population. There never seemed to be enough to get
to the waterlogged grunts stuck out in the field, though. My hat's
off to those guys. God bless 'em.
The medical / dental compounds's rebuilt generators failed on a
regular basis. They came and went. All were 1948 - 52 vintage. But
there were occasional fantastic buys ont stereo gear at the PX,
Imperial Vodka was 60 cents a quart, Chivas and Jack Daniels Black
Label were $3.60, and beeer was 10 cents a can - 15 cents for premium.
Things weren't all bad! Unless you were E4 or below, in which case
the liquor tab was torn off your ration card...
My son-in-law served with Marine Ammo supply in Desert Storm. Says
there was never shortage of ordnance. But his chemical / bacterial
warfare suit had big holes in it as did most of those in his unit.
Word had it they ere Army castoffs. Who knows? His first job out of
the service, though, was at an Army supply depot cutting up surplus
ABC warfare suits. Every one he destroyed, he said, were better than
those in service in his unit overseas.
Some things apparently never change. I'm writing this NOT as a knock
on the USMC, but to let folks know what the brave and dedicated men
and women in the Corps live with while doing all the marvellous things
they do for our country.
Jeff Edwards