My New Remington 700 STINKS. What Do I do?
Peter Hauer
My brand new Remington 700 (ADL .308) gets five inch groups
(five shots at 100 yards) with factory ammo. With carefully made
hand loads it gets 4.5 inches at best.
I called Remington and was referred to the man incharge of
customer service. I left two messages on his voice mail, but have
not heard from him.
Is this type of poor performance something I should tolerate?
Can I justifiably insist on a refund or free repair?
Or is this rifle typical of the ADL model, i.e. are they
crappy compared to the BDL? The gun store told me they both
had the same bolt and receiver. So I figured they should be
comparable. Am I wrong? Please advise. I am pissed and
thinking I should have bought a Savage. Pete
Mr.and Mrs. Proske
Pete, your rifle is defintly a lemon. My 700's group 3/8" at 100
with factory ammo. Take it to a competent smith and have him determine
the cause. Remington is a big company, so it may take a while to get a
response.
--
"I am compleatly out of ammo - that has never happened before"..-burt-
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John Kepler
I realize you're fairly "het up" over this, and I can't say as I blame
you, but I think there are a couple of very simple things you can do to
fix this problem yourself. Don't let Remington off the hook, but you
want this rifle to shoot sometime in this millenia don't you? <BG>
First, check the tightness on the action screws (there are two of them,
with the heads on the bottom of the rifle). A torque wrench is best for
this, but for now, make sure they are just tight and as EVENLY torqued as
you can (25-30 ft.lbs.). Many times, to keep the screw torque from
getting funny while the rifle is waiting for you and your money, the
manufacturer will leave those critical screws loose......the retailer is
supposed to tighten them---sometimes that job is either neglected or
messed up. Other times, they get tightened at the factory, and go
"funny" while waiting for you and the cash. Either way, check the torque
on the screws. Loose or unevenly torqued action screws will put you and
the rifle all over the paper.
John
A. Everett Logan
Peter Hauer (pha...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: My brand new Remington 700 (ADL .308) gets five inch groups
: (five shots at 100 yards) with factory ammo. With carefully made
: hand loads it gets 4.5 inches at best.
: thinking I should have bought a Savage. Pete
Pete,
You're definitely not wrong; your 700 should be grouping better than
that. But, I don't know if Remington has any kind of guarantee the way
some manufacturers and gunsmiths do (such as Fulton Armory). But, IMHO,
you still should have bought a Savage. ;)
-Everett
Stephen Swartz
In article <4unncl$l...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, pha...@ix.netcom.com (Peter Hauer) says:
#
# My brand new Remington 700 (ADL .308) gets five inch groups
#(five shots at 100 yards) with factory ammo. With carefully made
#hand loads it gets 4.5 inches at best.
Holy Guacamole, BatMan!!!!! Assuming you have quality optics, are firing
from a sandbag, have a 1 moa or better hold on the target, etc. etc.
this performance, well, not to put too fine a point on it- SUCKS!!!
# I called Remington and was referred to the man incharge of
#customer service. I left two messages on his voice mail, but have
#not heard from him.
# Is this type of poor performance something I should tolerate?
#Can I justifiably insist on a refund or free repair?
Make sure you have good glass and good scope mounts on the rifle. Let
a couple of the best shooters you know fire the rifle. If everyone gets
the same 5 moa out of the rifle, take it to a competent gunsmith for
careful examination.
Something is drastically wrong with that rifle.
I've seen pistols get better than 5" groups at 100 yards.
# Or is this rifle typical of the ADL model, i.e. are they
#crappy compared to the BDL? The gun store told me they both
#had the same bolt and receiver. So I figured they should be
#comparable. Am I wrong? Please advise. I am pissed and
Functionally, (in terms of accuracy and action) there should be very
little difference.
#thinking I should have bought a Savage. Pete
With the refund you get back after turning in the Remington, you can buy
a Savage *and* a Leupold *and* have money left over to buy several boxes
of ammo . . . (well, maybe not at ADL prices).
***********************************************************************
* =8^) - Si vis pacem, parabellum *
* Steve - "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence. It *
* Swartz is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and *
* a fearsome master." *
* NRA Life - A well regulated militia, being necessary to the *
* AFA Life security of a free State, the right of the people *
* to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. *
***********************************************************************
David Basiji
A couple of things:
If you have optics mounted, try taking them off and shooting with
iron sights. That eliminates the variables of a tweaked scope reticle
and/or loose mounts.
Also check the mating of the stock to the receiver and be sure that
the mounting screws are tight with even tension.
Finally, the forestock on factory guns is generally in contact with
the barrel and uneven pressure on the stock from shot to shot can
really screw with the accuracy. Be careful where you rest it on the
bag and have several different folks shoot groups to make sure it's
not your particular technique.
If all this fails, I'd start the process with Remington.
-db
--
David A. Basiji bas...@u.washington.edu
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~basiji (206) 616-1549
UW Bioengineering/Molecular Biotechnology
"I don't speak for the University of Washington."
WFluit
Your 700 ADL reminds me of the Winchester M70 Sporter Varmint .223 I had.
It shot 8" groups at 100 yds new out of the box. I had the barrel channel
relieved and groups got down to 3" and no better. Still bad for a .223. I
was told later (after I got rid of it) that I should have sent it back to
the factory. You definitely got a bad one. My 700 ADL .308 shoots 2"
groups with factory ammo. I read and heard complaints about Remington's
customer service (sucks). I've always had good luck with Remington guns
but never had to deal with repairs or customer service.
My advice.....don't buy a Savage..........buy a Ruger 77 if you decide to
turn in the 700 ADL.
das...@enter.net
My brother recently bought a $1000 40XBKS that has a very serious
problem. The scope can not be mounted straight over the bore; either the
mount screw holes were drilled off center or the barrel is crooked. When
a scope is mounted on this rifle, the sunshade is so far off the center of
the bore that any idiot can see that something is wrong. Various
gunsmiths have confirmed this for us. But the Remington Custom Shop
insists the rifle is within spec. If they will not fix a $1000 40XB, why
should they bother with your rifle? They think we are all too stupid to
know a good rifle from a bad one.
If you do send the gun back, do not include any scope mounts. My brother
sent along his very expensive mounts, and not surprisingly, the gun came
back without them. "Joe" at the Custom Shop said that they must have been
"misplaced." Yeah, I bet somebody did "misplace" them somewhere. We're
still waiting for the refund.
Remington is a joke, and I'll never buy anything from them again. The
Custom Shop is very, very good at making excuses. I suspect they have
lots of practice.
Russell Taylor
In <4urbjc$4...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> wfl...@aol.com (WFluit) writes:
# My 700 ADL .308 shoots 2" groups with factory ammo.
<snip>
#My advice.....don't buy a Savage...
Well, another slam from another loyal Remington owner. I've got three
Savages, couldn't care less if I "EVER" bought a Remington rifle, and
every one of them has shot better than the two-inches you report!
"TWO" inches at 100 yards?! What a joke! Every ONE of my Savages,
even the ones with the "soft plastic stocks" (even before the new
pillar bedding jobs came out), has shot at 1/2" at 100 yards OR LESS
with factory ammunition! Then again, maybe some people are happy with
Remingtons that shoots two-inch groups with factory fodder. Gee, I'll
bet with handloads, you're probably happy with one-inch groups, too,
right?
The bottom line is, EVERY gun manufacturer turns out a bad rifle on
occasion, but Savages are just as accurate, at about 1/3 the cost, as
Remingtons and Winchesters, and the money I've saved has gone into
optics for my rifles. I believe the majority of Remingtons shoot quite
nicely... but so do Savages, too. I've recommended Remingtons to the
guys who wanted them AND could afford them, but to the guys without the
money, I've recommended Savages... and I still do.
For the bad-shooting Remington ADL... send it back, after you've gotten
the name of the person you talked to on the phone. Get a signature on
the receipt for whoever accepts your package. Get a "time" when your
rifle should be returned to you, and hold them to it.
Unless you're just a lousy shot, you ought to get groups of one inch or
better at 100 yards, out of the box, from your Remington, if you're
using Federal match ammo.
Better Shooting,
Russell E. Taylor
Mark Thomen
In <4uq0cs$s...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, John Kepler <bigjo...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
#(Snipped)
#First, check the tightness on the action screws (there are two of them,
#with the heads on the bottom of the rifle). A torque wrench is best for
#this, but for now, make sure they are just tight and as EVENLY torqued as
#you can (25-30 ft.lbs.).
25-30 FT LBS?!?!?!?!?! How about 65 INCH lbs!!!
Mark
JimDodd
ASk REmington where there their address is in your state for legal
service. Then go to small claims court for damages. This assumes that they
won't give you a refund. In california, small claims court can go up to
$5,000. One of our few benefits for living here. Remington is deathly
afraid of courts and lawyers...jim dodd
Amen
In article <4unncl$l...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, pha...@ix.netcom.com (Peter Hauer) says:
#
# My brand new Remington 700 (ADL .308) gets five inch groups
#(five shots at 100 yards) with factory ammo. With carefully made
#hand loads it gets 4.5 inches at best.
#customer service. I left two messages on his voice mail, but have
#not heard from him.
# Is this type of poor performance something I should tolerate?
#Can I justifiably insist on a refund or free repair?
#crappy compared to the BDL? The gun store told me they both
#had the same bolt and receiver. So I figured they should be
#comparable. Am I wrong? Please advise. I am pissed and
Pete,
I got the same kind of response from Remington's customer service...silence.
The ADL is just as good as the BDL. The difference is only in the cosmetic (highly polished blue, walnut stock, fancy checkering...etc..).
I would recommend you to do the followings:
1) Make sure your scope mount is tight. Redfield mount is the best. Weaver is not as sturdy.
2) Make sure the two receiver screws which tighten the receiver to the wood stock is tight.
3) Clean your bore thoroughly with Hoppe No.9 or similar bore cleaner.
4) Check the rifling in your bore for any roughness or discontinuity.
5) Slide a dollar bill in between the barrel and the stock, starting from the fore end and go all the way to the receiver. If it does not go, that means the wood stock touch the barrel at some points. That is detrimental to accuracy. If that is the case, you need a glass bedding job. It usually costs about $55 if done by a professional gunsmith. You can do it yourself for $10. But it does take time and patience.
6) If all the step above still does not improve accuracy, then the possibility is the bolt head not true (factory defect) and the case does not sit squarely and symetrically along the center bore line. In this case you need to send it back to Remington and demand a replacement. Good luck with this avenue though. I don't think they would do it for you unless you are a writer for one of the major gun magazines.
7) If (6) does not work, take your rifle to the show and sell it. Boycot Remington, buy a Ruger instead. Ruger has the Mauser-type extractor system, a safety which is easy to manipulate, it also comes with integral scope mount (only find that on expensive European rifles) and a set of rings. Ruger is a family run business and seems to be more sensitive to customers' feedback.
Good luck Pete.
Robert L. De raud
tho...@ibm.net (Mark Thomen) writes:
#In <4uq0cs$s...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, John Kepler <bigjo...@worldnet.att.net>
#writes:
##(Snipped)
##First, check the tightness on the action screws (there are two of them,
##with the heads on the bottom of the rifle). A torque wrench is best for
##this, but for now, make sure they are just tight and as EVENLY torqued as
##you can (25-30 ft.lbs.).
#25-30 FT LBS?!?!?!?!?! How about 65 INCH lbs!!!
Gawd, whatta WIMP!! Obviously never owned a Harley...the correct procedure, as
every red-blooded mechanic will tell you, is to "torque 'er 'til she strips,
then back off a quarter-turn". :-)
Lee
howard
# Unless you're just a lousy shot, you ought to get groups of one inch or
# better at 100 yards, out of the box, from your Remington, if you're
# using Federal match ammo.
#
# Better Shooting,
#
# Russell E. Taylor
Yes , I've seen some good shooting Savages, but there's no reason why
your 700 shouldn't do as good or better. But as it has been said, there are
many more people claiming to shoot 1" moa than there are guns actually
capable of doing it.
IMOP, it is difficult to get a hunter weight barrel,gun, & scope combo
under 10 pounds and consistently get moa or better consistently. (assuming
we are talking 30-06 class of ctgs. or greater). I get sub-moa in my
.300 win mag, but my gun weighs 13 pounds, has a 14x scope, heavy straight
taper barrel, etc. All things equal, accuracy is a function of weight.
But to think your going to get 5 consecutive shots into moa five times
(like the NRA tests guns) with a hunter weight gun (6-8 lbs.) maybe
overly optimistic.
Now, assuming Remington didn't bore out your barrel with a hole saw, I'm
sure your 700 can be brought into tolerances by a little tuning.
Use a quality scope (min 4x), rock solid mounts & rings, free float barrel,
good muzzle crown,good trigger pull & no backlash, and action bolts nice and
tight, bed recoil lug/first 2" of barrel with accraglas.
Also shoot from a solid benchrest and sandbags/rabbit ears. Don't use any of
those silly multi-function shooting rests/gun cleaning contraptions.(Like
RCBS-Outers use to make).
If you still have problems, you might want to slug the bore and mike it,
and make sure your groove dimension is in tolerance. If its tight, you may
benefit from lapping.
BTW, I only shoot 98 Mausers. Everything invented after 1898 for bolt actions
is only a improvement in the mind of the inventor.
good luck
Don Helmich
snip...@ix.netcom.com (Russell Taylor) wrote:
#In <4urbjc$4...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> wfl...@aol.com (WFluit) writes:
## My 700 ADL .308 shoots 2" groups with factory ammo.
#<snip>
##My advice.....don't buy a Savage...
#Well, another slam from another loyal Remington owner. I've got three
#Savages, couldn't care less if I "EVER" bought a Remington rifle, and
#every one of them has shot better than the two-inches you report!
#"TWO" inches at 100 yards?! What a joke! Every ONE of my Savages,
#even the ones with the "soft plastic stocks" (even before the new
#pillar bedding jobs came out), has shot at 1/2" at 100 yards OR LESS
#with factory ammunition! Then again, maybe some people are happy with
#Remingtons that shoots two-inch groups with factory fodder. Gee, I'll
#bet with handloads, you're probably happy with one-inch groups, too,
#right?
#The bottom line is, EVERY gun manufacturer turns out a bad rifle on
#occasion, but Savages are just as accurate, at about 1/3 the cost, as
#Remingtons and Winchesters, and the money I've saved has gone into
#optics for my rifles. I believe the majority of Remingtons shoot quite
#nicely... but so do Savages, too. I've recommended Remingtons to the
#guys who wanted them AND could afford them, but to the guys without the
#money, I've recommended Savages... and I still do.
#For the bad-shooting Remington ADL... send it back, after you've gotten
#the name of the person you talked to on the phone. Get a signature on
#the receipt for whoever accepts your package. Get a "time" when your
#rifle should be returned to you, and hold them to it.
#Unless you're just a lousy shot, you ought to get groups of one inch or
#better at 100 yards, out of the box, from your Remington, if you're
#using Federal match ammo.
#Better Shooting,
#Russell E. Taylor
Gee-
I have a Rem 700 Varmint, 308 with Target barrel, Leupold 3x9 scope,
and at 100 yards it keeps with my friend's M14 Super Match and my M14
Standard. I also have 7mm mag Rem 700, but with fittted target bareel
and it does well too at 1000 yards. So maybe you did get a bad gun.
Don H.
J Phelps
Your first step should be to pull the action out of the
stock and make sure that there is not anything interfering
with how the action seats. Often there are wood chips or
casting flash (synthetic stocks) that make action seating
unreliable. When reinstalling the action, the front screw
should be very tight, the rear screw firm but not as tight.
The second step is to take a good look at the scope base.
If it is not sitting evenly on the receiver, it can cause
accuracy problems. Lappping the rings is also a good idea.
I bought a ring lapping tool from Sinclairs last year and
found that every scoped firearm I check owned misaligned
rings. Some were amazingly far off and were bending the
scopes. Also, test a different scope. A friend had a Ruger
M77 that would not group well. When he finally agreed that
it could be a scope (Tasco) problem and switched scopes, the
problem when completely away. This happens a lot with
inexpensive scopes.
Checking the barrel crown is a good idea. It is easy for a
rifle to pick up a ding from handling.
Also, try Federal match ammo if it is available for your
rifle. They, among others, use handloader quality bullets
and this can make a huge difference.
These are the easy steps I could think of.
Good luck.
John Grossbohlin
###First, check the tightness on the action screws (there are two of them,
###with the heads on the bottom of the rifle). A torque wrench is best for
###this, but for now, make sure they are just tight and as EVENLY torqued as
###you can (25-30 ft.lbs.).
##25-30 FT LBS?!?!?!?!?! How about 65 INCH lbs!!!
#Gawd, whatta WIMP!! Obviously never owned a Harley...the correct procedure, as
#every red-blooded mechanic will tell you, is to "torque 'er 'til she strips,
#then back off a quarter-turn". :-)
Reminds me of a friend of mine who used to strip the oil drain plugs
in his cars at every oil change... he used to buy 2-3 plugs at each
visit to the parts store! He also managed to butcher more than a few
gun screws, blew a hole in the hood of a car while attempting to
unload a Gov Model and another through his house while 'dry firing'
a Smith 29... Just doesn't have a mechanical knack but it hasn't
stopped him from trying!
BTW, my Remington 700 BDL .30-06 shoots 1/4-1/2" groups with anything
I put in it--anything around an inch is my fault, not the gun's! Even
with the aperture rear sight I had on it for a while the gun would
stay under an inch at 100 yards from the bench... It is a first year
production left handed model with a very low serial number in the
sequence from what I've been able to find out about the gun.
John
Jonathan M. Spencer
In article <4vbdgj$f...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, John Grossbohlin
<gros...@mhv.net> writes
#BTW, my Remington 700 BDL .30-06 shoots 1/4-1/2" groups with anything
#I put in it--anything around an inch is my fault, not the gun's! Even
#with the aperture rear sight I had on it for a while the gun would
#stay under an inch at 100 yards from the bench...
Am I the only one who has a hard time swallowing this? An inch, at a
hundred yards, with iron sights? A quarter inch, with every type of
ammo?
What sort of instrument are you using to measure your groups, John,
because I know of a h-u-g-e market for just that sort of device?
<big wink>
--Jonathan
============================================================
Jonathan Spencer -- forensic scientist
Mountjoy Research Centre, Durham, England, DH1 3UR
tel: +44 191 386 6107 fax: +44 191 383 086
============================================================
Lance LaFrinier
In article <4vdvgf$m...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, "Jonathan M. Spencer" <j...@salvage.demon.co.uk> says:
#
#In article <4vbdgj$f...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, John Grossbohlin
#<gros...@mhv.net> writes
#
##BTW, my Remington 700 BDL .30-06 shoots 1/4-1/2" groups with anything
##I put in it--anything around an inch is my fault, not the gun's! Even
##with the aperture rear sight I had on it for a while the gun would
##stay under an inch at 100 yards from the bench...
#
#Am I the only one who has a hard time swallowing this? An inch, at a
#hundred yards, with iron sights? A quarter inch, with every type of
#ammo?
#
#What sort of instrument are you using to measure your groups, John,
#because I know of a h-u-g-e market for just that sort of device?
#
#<big wink>
#
#--Jonathan
I don't believe it, as I too own a 700 BDL/LH in /06...and I generally
am able to shoot 1 1/4"...and on a good day a hair under 1" with my
handloads. I consider these groups very reasonable...btw, these loads
are all hunting ammo, Hornady Interloc 165 gr or Nosler 180 gr Partitions.
Lance
TMartin311
I had some bolt binding and trigger problems with my Mod. 700 ADL - .243
shortly after I glass bedded it. I found that the problem was that I had
over-tightened one of the two allen head screws that hold the trigger
guard on (and attach the receiver to the stock). Backing off the screw a
half-turn made everything O.K.
Tom M
Tom Mosca
Hi Folks,
## BTW, my Remington 700 BDL .30-06 shoots 1/4-1/2" groups with anything
## I put in it--anything around an inch is my fault, not the gun's! Even
## with the aperture rear sight I had on it for a while the gun would
## stay under an inch at 100 yards from the bench...
# Am I the only one who has a hard time swallowing this? An inch, at a
# hundred yards, with iron sights? A quarter inch, with every type of
Those 1/4-1/2" groups must be one shot groups! In fact, most of
them are probably right around .308" groups. :-)
I must point out however, that a really good shooter can do almost
as well with iron sights as with a scope. David Tubbs has remarked that
he would rather shoot iron sights when testing ammo. Mind you, that is
not the same as open sights, as fine front and rear aperture target
sights are much more precise than hunting sights. One inch 100 yard
groups with target aperture sights is possible. I agree that the claim
above (##) is not to be believed by a reasonable person though.
Take care, Tom
Todd Doolittle
Tom Mosca wrote:
<SNIP>
#
# Those 1/4-1/2" groups must be one shot groups! In fact, most of
# them are probably right around .308" groups. :-)
This is a misconception. If you fired 5 rounds from a .308 and they all
went into the exact same hole the group size would not be .308" is would
be 0"
Group size is typically measured as extreme spread from center to center
of the two holes which are farthest appart.
Todd
Jonathan M. Spencer
In message <1996082223...@intellinet.com>, Dan Schneider
<da...@tenet.edu> writes
#On this note, what is a reasonable 100 yd group size to expect
#from an off-the-shelf mass produced rifle like the Savage, Remington,
#Browning, and Winchester bolt-actions? Tell the truth, folks.
I think the fundamental problem is that most folks measure their groups
using the Mark I Eye Caliper, and it badly needs recalibrating. It's a
bit like the joke:
question: "why are women always crashing cars into the garage door?"
answer "It's because their husbands insist that this distance
#.................< is *easily* 9 inches, and the wife there is plenty
of space"
Only for rifle groupings, it works in reverse:
this >.................................< is only an inch.
Both of my Winchester M70s have been bedded and free floated, so they
aren't exactly as off-the-shelf. The 243 heavy barrel M70V shoots to
1/4 in a very good day (5 shots, 100 yards), 3/4 most of the time, and
over an inch on windy days. It has a 20x scope. My 30-06 seems to
shoot around 1 3/4 inches most of the time, worse at other times, and
occasionally under an inch. It has a 10x scope. My brother's identical
30-06, with a 9x scope, seems to shoot it a bit better than mine.
(Darn, I should have had *that* one. :) His Ruger M77 in 243 (9x scope)
shoots to about 1.5 inches most of the time for 5 shot groups. All of
these rifles produce sub-MOA **three** shot groups, it's that last fifth
shot that widens the group every time, I swear! <wink>
My Brno .222LR and Sako .22LR are both off-the-shelf. At 50 yards, 10
rounds, the Brno shoots to under an inch, and the Sako to 3/8 - 1/2
inch. Both rifles firing Eley Target Rifle or Extra Hollow Ppoint (both
subsonic).
My Valmet combination gun (243/12 gauge, open iron sights) shoots to 2
inches at 50 yards and 4-5 inches at 100 yards -- on a good day, and
considerably worse on a bad day.
I had a Savage 24 in 22WMR/20 gauge and it shot to about an inch at 50
yards, and 3 inches at 100 yards - with a 4x scope.
I've yet to really evaluate my Sako 223. Actually, it isn't mine, it's
my wife's but you know what I mean. :-)
Edward W. Gardner
Maybe he's throwing out all the "flyers". Anything over a half inch is a
"flyer" right? ;-)
Ed
tgr...@flyer.us.dell.com
In article <4vkeii$5...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Todd Doolittle <tdo...@cris.com> wrote:
Todd,
I think we can be pretty sure that Tom M. was kidding, and knows how to
correctly measure group size.
The first hint was that his comment was actually somewhat humorous. One of the
basics in humor is taking something deliberately out of context or "getting it
wrong" in a surprising manner (see the Abbott & Costello routine "Who's on
first"). In fact, he set up his little jest and then delivered his own punch
line.
The second hint was when he put the little smiley :-) at the end of the line.
So, don't be so serious ;-) (that one is a "wink" - turn your head sideways
and you'll see. They're called emoticons and most people use it to show when
they're jesting, not to be taken seriously, etc)
My apologies if I'm telling you what you already know.
Tom Grover - tgr...@flyer.us.dell.com
--
I don't speak for Dell.
Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen FOU.TD/DELAB
In article <4vdvgf$m...@xring.cs.umd.edu> "Jonathan M. Spencer" <j...@salvage.demon.co.uk> writes:
<stuff deleted>
Am I the only one who has a hard time swallowing this? An inch, at a
hundred yards, with iron sights? A quarter inch, with every type of
ammo?
He did say an aperture sight, which given a standard round target
makes quite a difference. If the rifle and ammo is good enough, a good
shooter should have no problems shooting one inch groups at 100 yards
with an aperture sight.
A quarter inch with any type of ammo sounds more unbelievable, as it
would mean all shots in one hole....
What sort of instrument are you using to measure your groups, John,
because I know of a h-u-g-e market for just that sort of device?
<big wink>
Jonathan M. Spencer
Thanks for your comments. I'm copying this reply to rec.guns too.
In message <1996082510...@edeber.nta.no>, Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
FOU <?@?.Kristensen> writes
#Have you tried it [Valmet 412 in 243/12ga] with a scope?
No I haven't, for the reason that the scope mount is too expensive --
L180 =~ Finnish Marks 1350, don't know what that is in Norwegian
crowns{?). And also I use the combination gun for fox and roe as well
as rabbit/pheasant etc, and the iron sights are probably good enough if
I limit my shots to 50 yards. I feel that a scope will prevent it being
a good small game gun on flying birds. I got a quote for the mount from
a shop in Helsinki - 500 Finnish marks. Is that a good price?
#I have not yet seen a Valmet which
#would shoot worse groups at 100 meters than 2 inches with decent
#ammunition,
Is that with iron sights? Maybe in the hands of another shooter it
would do better, with a scope I'm sure it would do better. I am limited
to 80 - 85 grain bullets because the twist rate is 1:12" or thereabouts:
95 grain bullets tumble. I've been using Hornady 80 gr bullets although
Speer 85gr seemed to do well too. I haven't tried 90gr bullets in it.
The 80gr Hornady's achieve 3200fps from the 24" barrel.
#Or maybe the quality has gone downhill lately,
I've had the gun for four years, and got it second hand. The rifle
barrel is pristine. I think it's more to do with my eyes and my
shooting than the gun. :-)
# I've yet to really evaluate my Sako 223. Actually, it isn't mine, it's
# my wife's but you know what I mean. :-)
I got to fire it yesterday evening, under less than ideal conditions:
heavy rain, some wind (not much), last thing at night, scope lens wet,
my glasses wet. I fired five groups of three at 50 yards (55 good
paces). It shot groups of .33", .44", .45", .47", .36". (There's
25.4mm / inch.) I know that's only at 50 yards, but under the
conditions that's pretty good for an out-the-box rifle and first
handload. The load (should anyone care) was a Sierra 55gr SMP, Lapua
case (BR prep'ed), Rem 7.5 BR primer, and 25.0gr of N133. Those foxes
and crows are in deep do-do now! :-)
Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen FOU.TD/DELAB
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 12:35:33 +0100
Cc: gun-c...@cs.umd.edu
From: "Jonathan M. Spencer" <j...@salvage.demon.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Turnpike Version 1.12 <1+bpab3GuLUvJBBcy4gRBjKWnS>
Thanks for your comments. I'm copying this reply to rec.guns too.
In message <1996082510...@edeber.nta.no>, Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
FOU <?@?.Kristensen> writes
>Have you tried it [Valmet 412 in 243/12ga] with a scope?
No I haven't, for the reason that the scope mount is too expensive --
L180 =~ Finnish Marks 1350, don't know what that is in Norwegian
crowns{?). And also I use the combination gun for fox and roe as well
as rabbit/pheasant etc, and the iron sights are probably good enough if
I limit my shots to 50 yards. I feel that a scope will prevent it being
a good small game gun on flying birds. I got a quote for the mount from
a shop in Helsinki - 500 Finnish marks. Is that a good price?
Yes, I think 500 Finnish marks is a good price. I don't know if my own
scope mount is original or not, but it is made by Sako, is easily
detachable, has an adjustable base (for vindage), and is repeatable
enough that I can carry it in my backpack and mount it if I need to
use it. I agree that it is not good to have a scope if you are going
to use it for birds. I don't know the cost as I got it as a present
from an old friend, but the price you quote (L180 ~= NKr 1800) is
about right for the original mount here in Norway.
I hunt mostly with the iron sights myself, although I have
experimented with an Aimpoint dot sight as well. It is better than the
iron sights when it gets dark, but not as good as my old scope. Its
not so easy to hit birds with the Aimpoint either, but it's possible.
>I have not yet seen a Valmet which
>would shoot worse groups at 100 meters than 2 inches with decent
>ammunition,
Is that with iron sights? Maybe in the hands of another shooter it
would do better, with a scope I'm sure it would do better. I am limited
to 80 - 85 grain bullets because the twist rate is 1:12" or thereabouts:
95 grain bullets tumble. I've been using Hornady 80 gr bullets although
Speer 85gr seemed to do well too. I haven't tried 90gr bullets in it.
The 80gr Hornady's achieve 3200fps from the 24" barrel.
No, that is with a scope. I have no problems with my own Valmet to
shoot 2" groups with the iron sights, but that is on the range, in
good light, and I don't count on it when hunting. When shooting at a
stationary deer, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot at ranges up to about
100 meters if the light is good, though.
>Or maybe the quality has gone downhill lately,
I've had the gun for four years, and got it second hand. The rifle
barrel is pristine. I think it's more to do with my eyes and my
shooting than the gun. :-)
Have you noticed any tendency of the point of impact to change as the
barrel heats up? If you have an old Valmet, the rifle barrel may not
be free to expand lenghtwise as the barrel heats up, and as a result,
warps instead.
Poor drawing:
_^_
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Shotgun barrel | |
-------------------------------------------------------------------
|. |
-------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Beneath the front sight, a bushing holds the rifle barrel to the shot
barrel. There is a dovetal slot used to adjust the position of the
rifle barrel, and directly beneath it, there is either just a hole, or
a hole with a pin in it going through the bushing. Not the little screw in
front, but perpendicular to the barrels. This pin (if it is there on
your gun) is what stops the rifle barrel from expanding freely, and it
should be removed if it's there.
> I've yet to really evaluate my Sako 223. Actually, it isn't mine, it's
> my wife's but you know what I mean. :-)
I got to fire it yesterday evening, under less than ideal conditions:
heavy rain, some wind (not much), last thing at night, scope lens wet,
my glasses wet. I fired five groups of three at 50 yards (55 good
paces). It shot groups of .33", .44", .45", .47", .36". (There's
25.4mm / inch.) I know that's only at 50 yards, but under the
conditions that's pretty good for an out-the-box rifle and first
handload. The load (should anyone care) was a Sierra 55gr SMP, Lapua
case (BR prep'ed), Rem 7.5 BR primer, and 25.0gr of N133. Those foxes
and crows are in deep do-do now! :-)
Yes, that sounds very impressive. Keep in mind that at 50 yards the effect
of wind is MUCH less noticeable than at 100 yards, though.
As an example, if you shoot a bullet with a BC of 0.4 at 1000 m/s, in
a crosswind of 4.5 m/s, theoretically you will be 5 mm off at 50m, but
20 mm off at 100 m.
--Jonathan
============================================================
Jonathan Spencer -- forensic scientist
Mountjoy Research Centre, Durham, England, DH1 3UR
tel: +44 191 386 6107 fax: +44 191 383 086
============================================================
Ole-Hj. Kristensen
Michael Conners
TMartin311 <tmart...@aol.com> wrote in article
<4vi4l1$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>...
# I had some bolt binding and trigger problems with my Mod. 700 ADL - .243
# shortly after I glass bedded it. I found that the problem was that I had
# over-tightened one of the two allen head screws that hold the trigger
# guard on (and attach the receiver to the stock). Backing off the screw a
# half-turn made everything O.K.
#
# Tom M
#
#
I've heard some of the same things recently about the 700's - the quality
is not coming
out of the factory.
Example: at a local gun show this weekend I talked to a fellow that would
build me a rifle
(.308, Parker Hale barrel, Mauser action, 5 round mag) with optics for
under $1k. Picking
up a similar 700 or model 70 would be $650 or $700 just for the gun.
my .02...
Don Staples
If ya'll are paying that much for a M-700 or M-70 ya'll need to come to Texas
to buy, we need the additional money! $450 to $500 more likely. Rugers a
little less if you dont want the African calibers.
In article <4vteoi$5...@xring.cs.umd.edu> "Michael Conners"
<mcon...@pcdev113.nsg.stercomm.com> writes:>From: "Michael Conners"
<mcon...@pcdev113.nsg.stercomm.com>>Subject: Re: My New Remington 700 STINKS.
What Do I do?>Date: 26 Aug 1996 20:16:18 -0400
#TMartin311 <tmart...@aol.com> wrote in article
#<4vi4l1$8...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>...
## I had some bolt binding and trigger problems with my Mod. 700 ADL - .243
## shortly after I glass bedded it. I found that the problem was that I had
## over-tightened one of the two allen head screws that hold the trigger
## guard on (and attach the receiver to the stock). Backing off the screw a
## half-turn made everything O.K.
##
## Tom M
##
##
#I've heard some of the same things recently about the 700's - the quality
#is not coming
#out of the factory.
#Example: at a local gun show this weekend I talked to a fellow that would
#build me a rifle
#(.308, Parker Hale barrel, Mauser action, 5 round mag) with optics for
#under $1k. Picking
#up a similar 700 or model 70 would be $650 or $700 just for the gun.
#my .02...
Steven Speer
Jonathan M. Spencer (j...@salvage.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: (Darn, I should have had *that* one. :) His Ruger M77 in 243 (9x scope)
: shoots to about 1.5 inches most of the time for 5 shot groups. All of
: these rifles produce sub-MOA **three** shot groups, it's that last fifth
: shot that widens the group every time, I swear! <wink>
Hey, you could be on to something here Jonathan. This could well explain
the reliance on 3-shot groupings often reported on Usenet - they shot 5
rounds and tossed out the two "flyers". :-)
-Steve
Hal
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960822...@VS.vims.edu>, t...@vims.edu
says...
#
#Hi Folks,
#
### BTW, my Remington 700 BDL .30-06 shoots 1/4-1/2" groups with anything
### I put in it--anything around an inch is my fault, not the gun's! Even
### with the aperture rear sight I had on it for a while the gun would
### stay under an inch at 100 yards from the bench...
#
## Am I the only one who has a hard time swallowing this? An inch, at a
## hundred yards, with iron sights? A quarter inch, with every type of
#lot of stuff deleted...
Yep, those one hole groups are something. I found a web page with a photo of a
dime that someone (Scott Sutherland of Kingsport, TN) shot at 100 yards with a
Remington 700BDL-V in .22-250 with 38g of H-380 (or Varget, who can remember
these days) and a Nosler 40g Ballistic Tip. We used the photo as part of an ad
for Wideners Reloading & Shooting Supplies page. I've tried to get a group
located on a dime at 100 yards and it's tough! Try it sometime and see if you
can do it. Anybody that gets 5 shots on a dime with the rim intact, I'd like to
see it!
Hal Dougherty / ha...@usit.net
Hal
OK, now I've shown my dumb side... I posted a note about a photograph of a
bullet hole in a dime and I didn't put up the URL... The page can be found
at:
http://www.ilinkgn.net/commercl/wideners
That's not the address, but when you use it, the webserver will switch you to
the site. I'd like to see a better photo, so if you've got a better one, e-mail
it to:
ha...@usit.net
Thanks!
Jonathan M. Spencer
In article <502ltv$g...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Hal <ha...@usit.net> writes
#In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960822...@VS.vims.edu>, t...@vims.edu
#says...
##
#### BTW, my Remington 700 BDL .30-06 shoots 1/4-1/2" groups with anything
#### I put in it--anything around an inch is my fault, not the gun's! Even
#### with the aperture rear sight I had on it for a while the gun would
#### stay under an inch at 100 yards from the bench...
##
### Am I the only one who has a hard time swallowing this? An inch, at a
### hundred yards, with iron sights? A quarter inch, with every type of
##lot of stuff deleted...
#
# Yep, those one hole groups are something. I found a web page with a photo of a
#dime that someone (Scott Sutherland of Kingsport, TN) shot at 100 yards with a
#Remington 700BDL-V in .22-250 with 38g of H-380 (or Varget, who can remember
#these days) and a Nosler 40g Ballistic Tip.
Achieving a small group *once* -- and then with a handload, not random
factory ammo -- is not the same as "shoots 1/4-1/2" groups with anything
I put in it", is it?
The first handload I shot out my 243 was under .25", but I don't claim
that it is a .25" rifle. It *is*, however, a regular 3/4" rifle.
--Jonathan
============================================================
Jonathan Spencer -- forensic scientist
Mountjoy Research Centre, Durham, England, DH1 3UR
tel: +44 191 386 6107 fax: +44 191 383 0686
============================================================
FredMiller
On 28 Aug 1996 19:49:19 -0400, ha...@usit.net (Hal) wrote:
#In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960822...@VS.vims.edu>, t...@vims.edu
#says...
##
##Hi Folks,
##
#### BTW, my Remington 700 BDL .30-06 shoots 1/4-1/2" groups with anything
#### I put in it--anything around an inch is my fault, not the gun's! Even
#### with the aperture rear sight I had on it for a while the gun would
#### stay under an inch at 100 yards from the bench...
##
### Am I the only one who has a hard time swallowing this? An inch, at a
### hundred yards, with iron sights? A quarter inch, with every type of
##lot of stuff deleted...
#
# Yep, those one hole groups are something. I found a web page with a photo of a
#dime that someone (Scott Sutherland of Kingsport, TN) shot at 100 yards with a
#Remington 700BDL-V in .22-250 with 38g of H-380 (or Varget, who can remember
#these days) and a Nosler 40g Ballistic Tip. We used the photo as part of an ad
#for Wideners Reloading & Shooting Supplies page. I've tried to get a group
#located on a dime at 100 yards and it's tough! Try it sometime and see if you
#can do it. Anybody that gets 5 shots on a dime with the rim intact, I'd like to
#see it!
I used to shoot out all but the rim of a quarter at 30 yards, and that
was tough enough!
Fred