[RIFLE][Q] 7.62 Nato/7.62x39 interchangeable?
tgr...@dashi.dell.com
Okay, I know it sounds like a stupid question (at least
to me). However:
A friend who served in the Air Force as an MP swears that
his instructors taught them that the Russian "service rifle"
allowed use of the 7.62mm NATO round interchangeably with
the Russian 7.62 round.
Now, I am only aware of the 7.62x39 (SKS, AK-47, etc), and
the 7.62x54(R)? as being relatively modern Soviet bloc .30 cal
rounds in common use. It seems unlikely in the extreme that
an SKS or AK-47 chambered for 7.62x39 could be easily adapted
to 7.62 NATO in anticipation of using capture ammunition. I guess
it's possible to adapt a 7.62x54 chamber, but again seems
unlikely to me.
Of course, I'm not a military student, and so could easily
be way off here, does anyone on this group have the answer:
is this real or is it the fevered imaginings of a easily impressed
youth?
Tom Grover - tgr...@dashi.us.dell.com
==
I don't speak for Dell.
Wolf
In <4q501b$l...@xring.cs.umd.edu> tgr...@dashi.dell.com writes:
#Okay, I know it sounds like a stupid question (at least
#to me). However:
#A friend who served in the Air Force as an MP swears that
#his instructors taught them that the Russian "service rifle"
#allowed use of the 7.62mm NATO round interchangeably with
#the Russian 7.62 round.
#Now, I am only aware of the 7.62x39 (SKS, AK-47, etc), and
#the 7.62x54(R)? as being relatively modern Soviet bloc .30 cal
#rounds in common use. It seems unlikely in the extreme that
#an SKS or AK-47 chambered for 7.62x39 could be easily adapted
#to 7.62 NATO in anticipation of using capture ammunition. I guess
#it's possible to adapt a 7.62x54 chamber, but again seems
#unlikely to me.
#Of course, I'm not a military student, and so could easily
#be way off here, does anyone on this group have the answer:
#is this real or is it the fevered imaginings of a easily impressed
#youth?
Urban (jungle) legend from hell. No way in hell you want to try to
convince an SKS or AK to feed 7.62 NATO, and 7.62x39 uses a larger bullet
diameter than 7.62 NATO (.311 compared to NATO at .308). One POSSIBLE
source for this is I vaguely recall hearing rumor that a .51 cal machinegun
could have the headspace changed to accept .50BMG, but don't recall the source
and haven't had a .51 to play with and see :-).
Basically, this is a legend that has been promulgated since 'nam, and doesn't
show any signs of dying anytime soon (it has evolved, now there are claims that
the AK-74 will take 5.56 NATO, even though the -74 takes 5.45 caliber ammo, if
I recall correctly, and I doubt even the Soviets would have designed THAT much
slop into barrel tolerances).
James
#Tom Grover - tgr...@dashi.us.dell.com
#==
#I don't speak for Dell.
Dan Brown
tgr...@dashi.dell.com wrote:
# is this real or is it the fevered imaginings of a easily impressed
# youth?
My guess is the latter.
::: pulls out an SKS, a round of 7.62 NATO ammo, and tries it :::
Nope, it doesn't fit. Not even close; the body is too large.
(-:
Could it be adapted? Well, you _could_ always take a
chambering reamer to it, but I wouldn't want to be standing within 100
yards of it when you pulled the trigger.
As to the 7.62x54R, without some kind of adapter, it probably
wouldn't fire at all. I'm not sure of the case dimensions, but if the
NATO round would fit in the chamber, it would probably go in too far
for a firing pin strike.
--
Dan Brown, KE6MKS, da...@a.crl.com
Finger bro...@holmes.uchastings.edu for public key & Geek Code
E-Mail published at my discretion.
Ordinary_Guy
On Jun 17, 1996 21:16:27 in article <[RIFLE][Q] 7.62 Nato/7.62x39
interchangeable?>, 'tgr...@dashi.dell.com' wrote:
#is this real or is it the fevered imaginings of a easily impressed
#youth?
Tom,
The latter. Get an example of each cartridge, hold them side by side, and
see for yourself.
Regards,
Walt
PS I seem to remember that around the time of the adoption of the 7.62x51mm
by the Army, critics claimed
"that the Russian "service rifle" allowed use of the 7.62mm NATO round
interchangeably with the Russian 7.62 round" but not vice versa.
Perhaps this is the source of your disinformation.
Arne Carlsten
tgr...@dashi.dell.com wrote:
: Okay, I know it sounds like a stupid question (at least
: to me). However:
: A friend who served in the Air Force as an MP swears that
: his instructors taught them that the Russian "service rifle"
: allowed use of the 7.62mm NATO round interchangeably with
: the Russian 7.62 round.
I heard the same things in the Army.
I knew better than the lift my hand up and say "Drill sergeant, that's
not right..." though.
: Now, I am only aware of the 7.62x39 (SKS, AK-47, etc), and
: the 7.62x54(R)? as being relatively modern Soviet bloc .30 cal
: rounds in common use. It seems unlikely in the extreme that
: an SKS or AK-47 chambered for 7.62x39 could be easily adapted
: to 7.62 NATO in anticipation of using capture ammunition. I guess
: it's possible to adapt a 7.62x54 chamber, but again seems
: unlikely to me.
: Of course, I'm not a military student, and so could easily
: be way off here, does anyone on this group have the answer:
: is this real or is it the fevered imaginings of a easily impressed
: youth?
Just the spreading of a military "urban legend." 7.62mm NATO (7.62mmx51)
(as used, for example in the M60 GPMG, M14, G3 and FAL rifles, etc) is _not_
interchangeable with 7.62mm M43/Soviet (7.62mmx39) (as used in the
AK-series of rifles, RPK LMGs or such), _nor_ are either interchangeable
with the 7.62mm M91/Russian (7.62mmx54R) as used in the M1891 Moisin-
Nagant series of rifles, the SVD sniper rifle or the PK-series of
machineguns, among others). And then there's the 7.62mmx25 pistol
cartridge, the 7.62mmx63 (aka the .30-06), the 7.62mmx33 (.30
carbine)...
It's not just the fault of low-level non-ordnance people like drill
sergeants though; I've found errors in official publications used as the
ordering authority for ammunition for weapons training. A big part of
the problem is that most training manuals and such are written by folks
who _aren't_ subject matter experts. So when they see "7.62mm" they
think, "Oh, yeah, like for the M60" and leave it at that. Then when we
get down to the range to familiarize with a Kalishnikov, we end up
sitting there staring at a couple crates of linked 7.62mm NATO ball.
Won't work, not even with a _big_ hammer.
--
Arne Gustav Carlsten
Flagstaff, Arizona
Chomh da/na le muc...
Bill Tomberlin
tgr...@dashi.dell.com wrote:
#
#Okay, I know it sounds like a stupid question (at least
#to me). However:
#
#A friend who served in the Air Force as an MP swears that
#his instructors taught them that the Russian "service rifle"
#allowed use of the 7.62mm NATO round interchangeably with
#the Russian 7.62 round.
#
#Now, I am only aware of the 7.62x39 (SKS, AK-47, etc), and
#the 7.62x54(R)? as being relatively modern Soviet bloc .30 cal
#rounds in common use. It seems unlikely in the extreme that
#an SKS or AK-47 chambered for 7.62x39 could be easily adapted
#to 7.62 NATO in anticipation of using capture ammunition. I guess
#it's possible to adapt a 7.62x54 chamber, but again seems
#unlikely to me.
#
#Of course, I'm not a military student, and so could easily
#be way off here, does anyone on this group have the answer:
#is this real or is it the fevered imaginings of a easily impressed
#youth?
##
I've heared this one so many times it's unbelievable. I think some
good natured instructors told this to people and did't quite have all
their ducks in a row. Then one day an ex-82nd Airborne Trooper told me
this but it was a little bit different.
He said that his instructors told him that the Vietnamese could use the
bullet from captured M60 machine ammo (7.62 NATO) in their guns but it
would blow our guns if we tried to use their bullets in ours. I think
what they were referring to was the fact that the 7.62x39 cartridge uses
a .311" diameter bullet and the 7.62 NATO uses a .308" diameter bullet.
If the enemy captured M60 ammo, they could pull the bullets and reload
them into 7.62x39 ammo without a concern for pressure. On the other
hand, to run a .311 bullet through a .308 bore could be a concern(Please,
no-Ruger does it!s. I know they do, but with 7.62x39 only).
I have loaded FMJ 147gr .308 diameter bullets in 7.62x39 and shot
through an SKS, gotten just as good accuracy as some of the FMJ ball
surplus stuff if not better. In fact, I got the data from a NRA
publication several years old. I wouldn't even think of pulling a .311
bullet and shoving in a .308 Win or .30-06 Springfield case although
there is probably someone out there that has.
By the way, that same .308 147gr fmj bullet shoots great in a No4MkII
303 British Enfield of mine also. It also has a .311/.312 bore.
Perhaps there's some other way or method that this interchangability
could be done. If there is, I'm not familar with it.
Hope that helps, Bill T
Tivers
#Now, I am only aware of the 7.62x39 (SKS, AK-47, etc), and
#the 7.62x54(R)? as being relatively modern Soviet bloc .30 cal
#rounds in common use. It seems unlikely in the extreme that
#an SKS or AK-47 chambered for 7.62x39 could be easily adapted
#to 7.62 NATO in anticipation of using capture ammunition. I guess
#it's possible to adapt a 7.62x54 chamber, but again seems
#unlikely to me.
#Tom Grover - tgr...@dashi.us.dell.com
==
Well, I'll take a chance on displaying my own ignorance. I belive the 7.62
X 54 is interchangeable with the 7.62 Nato and the .308.
Ducking,
ti
Tom Ivers, President
Equine Racing Systems, Inc.
Stephanie Steele
tgr...@dashi.dell.com wrote:
#
# Okay, I know it sounds like a stupid question (at least
# to me). However:
#
# his instructors taught them that the Russian "service rifle"
# allowed use of the 7.62mm NATO round interchangeably with
# the Russian 7.62 round.
#
# the 7.62x54(R)? as being relatively modern Soviet bloc .30 cal
# rounds in common use. It seems unlikely in the extreme that
# an SKS or AK-47 chambered for 7.62x39 could be easily adapted
# to 7.62 NATO in anticipation of using capture ammunition. I guess
# it's possible to adapt a 7.62x54 chamber, but again seems
# unlikely to me.
#
# be way off here, does anyone on this group have the answer:
# is this real or is it the fevered imaginings of a easily impressed# I don't speak for Dell.
Don't feel like the only one hearing this huey. My boss insists that his
instructor told him the same thing and he was in the Navy. It is obvious
to anyone who has examined the two rounds that you can't fit the longer
NATO round into the short 7.62x39 chamber. The bullet diameter would not
be a problem even though the 7.62x39 uses a .311 bullet and the NATO a
.308 as the NATO bullet would just rattle in the bore. The answer to
this bit of information is you just can't fit a square peg in a round
hole or a 7.62x51 in a 7.62x39 hole!
--
Stephanie Steele
e-mail address kc7...@primenet.com
packet address kc7...@kb7cfd.id.pnw.usa.noam
------------------------------------------------
Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is
probably why so few engage in it.
-Henry Ford
John Kepler
I heard the same thing from Viet Nam vet that I know well. I can find NO
reasonable explanation that would allow either a 7.62 X 54R or a 7.62 X
39 to shoot in a rifle chambered in .308! Reversing the operation doesn't
work either, a .308 will not chamber in a 7.62 X 54R rifle! I have,
reluctantly, concluded that the story is one of those that sound a lot
better 20 years after the fact. There might be something I'm
missing...but the rounds just don't fit!
John
Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci
In article <4q501b$l...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, <tgr...@dashi.dell.com> wrote:
#
#Okay, I know it sounds like a stupid question (at least
#to me). However:
#
#A friend who served in the Air Force as an MP swears that
#his instructors taught them that the Russian "service rifle"
#allowed use of the 7.62mm NATO round interchangeably with
#the Russian 7.62 round.
#
#the 7.62x54(R)? as being relatively modern Soviet bloc .30 cal
#rounds in common use. It seems unlikely in the extreme that
#an SKS or AK-47 chambered for 7.62x39 could be easily adapted
#to 7.62 NATO in anticipation of using capture ammunition. I guess
#it's possible to adapt a 7.62x54 chamber, but again seems
#unlikely to me.
#
The 7.62x39 case is a lot smaller, less powereful than the NATO 7.62x51,
and rechambering the barrel and building new, bigger magazines would be a
considerable chore and of doubious worth as a modification.
(there are AKs in 7.62 NATO, but they are purpose built for such) So the
idea that such a conversion would be simple is just poop.
However, the Russian 7.62x54r and the NATO 7.62x51 are fairly close, and
one could shoot NATO in something like a Mosin Nagant, but it would not
reliably extract due to the rimless case and the Russain cartridge
couldn't chamber in a NATO weapon due to the rim. (before speculating on
some nefarious design lock-out, remember that the Russian cartridge was
developed in 1891)
There have been all kinds of really silly ideas about ammo compatability
(shooting .223 through a 7.62 AK! and other sillinesses) and they are all
ususally some silly bit of half-truth misinterpeted or otherwise mangled
in the retelling, then becoming a "fact" untill someone actually tries it.
The Airgun Letter
bev...@netcom.com (Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci) wrote:##Okay, I know it sounds like a stupid question (at least
##to me). However:
##
##A friend who served in the Air Force as an MP swears that
##his instructors taught them that the Russian "service rifle"
##allowed use of the 7.62mm NATO round interchangeably with
##the Russian 7.62 round.
##
##Now, I am only aware of the 7.62x39 (SKS, AK-47, etc), and
##the 7.62x54(R)? as being relatively modern Soviet bloc .30 cal
##rounds in common use. It seems unlikely in the extreme that
##an SKS or AK-47 chambered for 7.62x39 could be easily adapted
##to 7.62 NATO in anticipation of using capture ammunition. I guess
##it's possible to adapt a 7.62x54 chamber, but again seems
##unlikely to me.
##
This myth was being widely taught when I took basic training with the
Army in 1968. I don't where it started, but it seemed to be a comfort to
believe that there was ammunition interchangeability with your principal
enemy. One variation of the myth was that they could fire their 7.62x39
in our M14, but we could not fire our 7.62 NATO in their AK/SKS.
All you have to do is hold the two cartridges in your hand to see the
impossibility. The 7.62x39 is a much smaller case in all critical dimensions.
The bullet usually mikes .311, which would cause higher pressure in an M14,
if you could get the cartridge to go off. That would be difficult, however,
because the Chi-Com cartridge would rattle around in the chamber.
Elmer Keith described a method of firing a sub-caliber munition in a larger
caliber chamber in his "Sixguns" book. If I didn't think a whole bunch of
people would rush out and try it, I would repeat it here. It IS possible,
according to Keith's jury-rigged method, to increase the exterior dimensions
of a cartridge to the point that it can be made to fire in an oversized
chamber, but only someone with a suicide wish would do so on a military
weapon.
Tom Gaylord
The Airgun Letter
http://www.airgunletter.com
DAFNV
One story I heard was that the 7.62x39mm could be loaded in the M-14(308),
in an emergency, if it was "charged from the magazine", but it was only
good for one round, and then you had to rely on your own ingenuity to get
the brass unstuck.
The other story was from one of the Drill Sgt's @ Ft. Leonard Wood, a
complete nincompoop! He mixed up the story so bad that he had GI's
shooting 7.62x39mm in their M-16's. Like it or not, who can argue with
a(misinformed) Drill Sgt? Beat your face Private!
Tivers
I'm surprised nobody jumped on my first, erroneous, post. Now I'll try for
a double:
I think it is the 7.62 X 51 that is interchangeable with 7.62 Nato and
.308.
Not even bothering to duck this time.
Dan Brown
tiv...@aol.com (Tivers) wrote:
# I think it is the 7.62 X 51 that is interchangeable with 7.62 Nato and
# .308.
The 7.62 x 51 _is_ 7.62 NATO, and may or may not be identical
to .308 Win (authorites seem to differ on this point).
tgr...@flyer.us.dell.com
In article <4qbebh$4...@clarknet.clark.net>,
The Airgun Letter <st...@airgunletter.com> wrote:
:bev...@netcom.com (Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci) wrote:
:#In article <4q501b$l...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, <tgr...@dashi.dell.com> wrote:
:##
:##Okay, I know it sounds like a stupid question (at least
:##to me). However:
:##
:##A friend who served in the Air Force as an MP swears that
:##his instructors taught them that the Russian "service rifle"
:##allowed use of the 7.62mm NATO round interchangeably with
:##the Russian 7.62 round.
..snip...
:##
:
:
:This myth was being widely taught when I took basic training with the
:Army in 1968. I don't where it started, but it seemed to be a comfort to
:believe that there was ammunition interchangeability with your principal
:enemy. One variation of the myth was that they could fire their 7.62x39
:in our M14, but we could not fire our 7.62 NATO in their AK/SKS.
..snip...
:
:Tom Gaylord
:The Airgun Letter
:http://www.airgunletter.com
To all,
Thanks for the replies. Several of you have noted that the same story
has been told, in different variations, by military instructors in various
locations.
That's kind of what I expected, apparently the "urban myth" syndrome isn't
limited to the civilian public.
Possible confusing matters is the possibility of some AK's deliberately
chambered for the 7.62Nato round (which sounds like a special-purpose
weapon, not general issue, if it was in fact issued to the Sov' military).
In any case, good responses, thanks again.
Tom Grover - tgr...@flyer.us.dell.com
==
Doug Owen
: A friend who served in the Air Force as an MP swears that
: his instructors taught them that the Russian "service rifle"
: allowed use of the 7.62mm NATO round interchangeably with
: the Russian 7.62 round.
Not even close. The NATO round (for practical purposes .308 Win) is far
too long to chamber. Lucky, it works at pressures too high for the AK
and it's ilk (say 50,000psi not 40,000).
: Now, I am only aware of the 7.62x39 (SKS, AK-47, etc), and
: the 7.62x54(R)? as being relatively modern Soviet bloc .30 cal
: rounds in common use. It seems unlikely in the extreme that
: an SKS or AK-47 chambered for 7.62x39 could be easily adapted
: to 7.62 NATO in anticipation of using capture ammunition. I guess
: it's possible to adapt a 7.62x54 chamber, but again seems
: unlikely to me.
The (R) means rimmed. Again, not a safe match.
: Of course, I'm not a military student, and so could easily
: be way off here, does anyone on this group have the answer:
: is this real or is it the fevered imaginings of a easily impressed
: youth?
I understand that some of the Com Block larger arms (mortars, MGs and so
on) can shoot "enemy ammo" in a pinch. Heck some guys (unwisely) shoot
.380 auto ammo in the MAK. . .. .
Doug Owen
b
Well, I'm certainly glad we cleared this up.