Artist project: Penetration from a Pellet gun?
Joshua
pellet gun?
I have an old automobile hood that I want to try shooting patterns into,
will a hand held pellet gun punch holes in the auto sheetmetal or just make
dents? I'm planning on trying this from ~20 feet.
What I'm trying to do is create patterns a' la the smiley face in the movie
"Lethal Weapon".
I'm the "tech support" on this project for a friend of mine who's an artist
wanting to "create" in a unique way. Artists... go figure. I wanted him
to use .22 rimfire, but he wants to do this in his basement or backyard.
Also: (Same project) Will low powered air loads (if there IS such a thing)
make dents or tiny holes, rather than breakage) in glass? I know there are
different kinds of glass, so I can't address that. He just wants to show
impact on the glass via a dent or small hole but not shatter the glass.
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Samuel W. Heywood
# What sort of penetration can typically be expected from a "handgun" format
# pellet gun?
# I have an old automobile hood that I want to try shooting patterns into,
# will a hand held pellet gun punch holes in the auto sheetmetal or just make
# dents? I'm planning on trying this from ~20 feet.
It will just make dents. If you fire a pellet pistol at a heavy
piece of sheet metal such as an automobile hood some of the pellets
are likely to bounce back and injure you. Don't try this unless you
are wearing some very heavy duty eye protection shield or goggles.
A long time ago I once saw an amazing demonstration performed by
an "artist" and a trick shooter who was representing one of the major
ammunition manufacturers. He used a .22 rimfire semi-automatic rifle
to make some very nice artistic patterns and designs by shooting holes
in some sheets of copper. He fired from a sitting position at a range
of about 25 feet and he placed every shot perfectly. One of his
designs required about 150 shots.
# What I'm trying to do is create patterns a' la the smiley face in the movie
# "Lethal Weapon".
# I'm the "tech support" on this project for a friend of mine who's an artist
# wanting to "create" in a unique way. Artists... go figure. I wanted him
# to use .22 rimfire, but he wants to do this in his basement or backyard.
He should use some very thin sheets of copper, brass or aluminum if he
wants to punch some nice clean holes.
# Also: (Same project) Will low powered air loads (if there IS such a thing)
# make dents or tiny holes, rather than breakage) in glass? I know there are
# different kinds of glass, so I can't address that. He just wants to show
# impact on the glass via a dent or small hole but not shatter the glass.
Don't know. You will have to experiment and find out for yourself. Take
great care to wear some very good eye protection and make sure that any
spectators stand back from a safe distance.
Sam Heywood
-- Message handled by Pine, Version 4.33
JTWard01
paint and leave a small dent.
BBs shot at auto glass typically leave a tiny hole surrounded by a small area
of damaged glass.
John Ward
Brandon, Florida
USA
Andrew Lewis
Doubt if an air rifle/pistol will work. Maybe a high power .22 cal
air rifle but deff. not the 4.5 mill. You're more likely to make
small holes in your face from the ricochets. Why don't you just
use a metal punch?
> ...
The glass may chip off in small "dinner plates" depending on its
tempering. Why not try a drill with a tungsten carbide tip and wiggle
it around?
Sigh, this sounds more like rec.power-tools.
ps, don't forget yer saftey glasses.
Joshua wrote:
> ...
Ragnar Danneksjold
# What sort of penetration can typically be expected from a "handgun"
# format pellet gun?
# I have an old automobile hood that I want to try shooting patterns into,
# will a hand held pellet gun punch holes in the auto sheetmetal or just
# make dents? I'm planning on trying this from ~20 feet.
It'll make little dents, then ricochette back at you.
# What I'm trying to do is create patterns a' la the smiley face in the
# movie "Lethal Weapon".
# I'm the "tech support" on this project for a friend of mine who's an
# artist wanting to "create" in a unique way. Artists... go figure. I
# wanted him to use .22 rimfire, but he wants to do this in his basement or
# backyard.
#
# Also: (Same project) Will low powered air loads (if there IS such a
# thing) make dents or tiny holes, rather than breakage) in glass? I know
# there are different kinds of glass, so I can't address that. He just
# wants to show impact on the glass via a dent or small hole but not
# shatter the glass.
Depends on the glass...
Derek V.
shooters of the early 1900s used to draw pictures with .22s. Ad
Topperwein and others had stock designs they'd punch out to the
delight of a crowd, advertising the guns and ammo they used to
demonstrate with. I don't know of any CO2, spring or pump-up airgun
with enough velocity to get a good, clean puncture of automobile sheet
metal.
I believe you'll find that higher velocity than can be reached with a
.22 LR will be required to work with plate glass, safety glass, heat
treated glass, you name it. If it doesn't have to be glass itself,
results may probably be accomplished with Plexiglas and a
rifle/handgun with the new Hornady .17, that'll give the velocity to
punch through and keep shattering to a minimum.
You may be at risk from rebounding pellets/bullets doing this.
An alternative, just for visual effect, might be to get some of the
decals which give the bullet hole appearance, and arrange them
artistically.
Derek V.
Peter & Sandi Groenewold
news:b18c2v$gub$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# What sort of penetration can typically be expected from a "handgun" format
# pellet gun?
# I have an old automobile hood that I want to try shooting patterns into,
# will a hand held pellet gun punch holes in the auto sheetmetal or just
make
# dents? I'm planning on trying this from ~20 feet.
#
I've never shot my car (accidentally OR on purpose!) with a pellet gun, but
I don't think a pellet pistol will penetrate the sheet metal. Rather, your
friend will probably have a face-full of welts from ricocheting pellets.
Most mass-produced pellet pistols give you velocities of around 400 FPS.
That's not terribly impressive. I have a makeshift air pistol range in my
basement, and I just use a flimsy sheet metal pellet trap. It has plenty of
shallow dents, but no bullet holes in it. I would personally use a .22 LR
(or maybe even .22 CB's) for this project.
However, if noise is a big problem, you might be able to use a round such as
Aquila's "Super Colibri" .22 caliber ammo. The conical 20 grain bullet is
propelled by the primer (no gunpowder) and it delivers a surprising thump at
close ranges. When fired from a rifle, it's report is no louder than that of
a typical air rifle. Do a Google search to find a dealer; I get mine from
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com . The Colibri may also cause a face-full of
welts, so I'm sure you will both proceed with caution.
Good luck,
PG
Rrafael J. Azanza
My opinion is no, you will not penetrate a car hood with a pellet
gun.
You will get a dent.
Yes, you should be able to put a hole in a window. If it's an
ordinary window, no problem. If it's a car's front windshield, you
will chip it, probably not go through it.
Pellet guns are really weak: something like 12 joules at the
muzzle. Use a rimfire.
John Cowart
#
# I'm planning on trying this from ~20 feet.
Not having seen either your airgun or your targets, I can't estimate if
you will get holes or dents. You will *really* need good eye protection
for this, as airguns, especially the lower velocity handguns, are quite
prone to ricochets. It would probably actually be safer to use a rimfire
and settle for holes.
BTW, this type of "art" was very popular at shooting exhibitions prior
to WWII. There are 2 tricks to it - the shooting is usually done from
*very* close (5 or 10 feet), and you can use the width of the front
sight as a visual "spacer" to place all of your shots almost exactly the
same distance apart from each other.
John Cowart
TimR
Handgun style repeating airguns are typical in the 350 to 400 feet per
second velocity range and will typically penetrate an aluminum
beverage can but not a soup can. Higher power airguns exist but are
typically not repeating, not handguns, and not cheap. I can't imagine
one that will penetrate an auto hood though there may be one, I'm not
an airgun expert. Nor a doctor. I did play one once, but not on TV,
it was on a golf course. Sorry, old joke.
I don't shoot at glass, sorry but that's kind of dumb. I have seen
marks on glass where it would appear that a projectile struck on one
side, did not penetrate, and caused a cone shaped piece of glass to
spall off on the opposite side, but I've never been there when it
happened so don't know how exactly (what power and type projectile) it
is done.
John Oliver
# What sort of penetration can typically be expected from a "handgun" format
# pellet gun?
# I have an old automobile hood that I want to try shooting patterns into,
# will a hand held pellet gun punch holes in the auto sheetmetal or just make
# dents? I'm planning on trying this from ~20 feet.
A pellet gun won't penetrate a hood (at least, a "real" hood!) You'd
probably want a .22 for that. It's possible that a .22 rimfire won't
penetrate a real hood, either... if I wanted to punch holes in an old
American car, I'd use an 8mm or 7.62X54R, since rifles and ammo are
cheap.
--
John Oliver, CCNA http://www.john-oliver.net/
Linux/UNIX/network consulting http://www.john-oliver.net/resume/
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**** Colocation, T1s, web/email/ftp hosting ****
Gunbunny
pellet-handguns on automobile exteriors, I'm pretty sure that you'd
just dent the bejesus out of the metal rather than punch a clean hole.
Perhaps some of the ballistics pros in here will have other, more
informed opinions.
What kind of pellet-pistol are you planning to use? Is it
pneumatic, CO2 powered or spring-air? I would guess that your average
pellet-firing handgun would launch a lead pellet at around 450-500
feet per second (more or less depending on the method of propulsion).
I'm not sure that one of those tiny pellets (weight in grains,
anyone?) going at that speed will cleanly puncture automobile steel.
Your suggestion that your friend use a .22 rimfire instead, while
impractical for him, seems most likely to produce the desired results.
As to whether or not a pellet-pistol will make nice, clean holes in
automobile glass (it is automobile glass, right?), modern auto glass
is laminated to reduce shattering. Also, if he's firing at the
windshield or rear window of a car, the angle of the glass might just
deflect the pellet without any real damage done. I think a .22 would
be better here as well, but a pellet-gun might cause enough damage
(probably without even penetrating completely) to get your artist
friend's point across.
Your friend is not alone in wanting to integrate firearms into
artwork. At the risk of sounding a bit touched (and maybe getting
flamed), I too have had thoughts about using firearms (safely of
course) to create artwork.
It'd be interesting to see how the art world reacts to the
introduction of small arms into the artistic process, I think. I read
an article about a fellow who used a .22 rifle to make profiles of
Uncle Sam in sheet metal (something lighter than steel...tin I think).
If your friend wants to get decent results with a pellet gun, I'd
imagine that shooting those little pellets at a lighter material than
sheet steel would yield better results. I'm still not sure about the
glass.
Let us know how it turns out.
Gunbunny
"Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the
pursuit of justice is no virtue."
--Barry M. Goldwater
" Joshua" <Jos...@Jericho.com> wrote in message news:<b18c2v$gub$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>...
> ...
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Stan Schaefer
# pellet gun?
# I have an old automobile hood that I want to try shooting patterns into,
# will a hand held pellet gun punch holes in the auto sheetmetal or just make
# dents? I'm planning on trying this from ~20 feet.
#
# "Lethal Weapon".
# wanting to "create" in a unique way. Artists... go figure. I wanted him
# to use .22 rimfire, but he wants to do this in his basement or backyard.
#
# Also: (Same project) Will low powered air loads (if there IS such a thing)
# make dents or tiny holes, rather than breakage) in glass? I know there are
# different kinds of glass, so I can't address that. He just wants to show
# impact on the glass via a dent or small hole but not shatter the glass.
#
#
An air pistol won't have enough punch to get through auto sheetmetal.
Something like a pop can, maybe. The most powerful, commonly
available ones run between 400-500 fps in .177. You'd have to move up
to something like a high-end precharged air rifle and you'd have to
have a good trap in back of it, they approach firearm energies. Might
as well use a .22, they'd be cheaper.
Oddly enough, one of the gun rags this month had an article that
mentioned trying to do the "smiley face" bit with a pistol. The
conclusion was that you'd have to have extraordinary skill plus a
one-hole match pistol to even get close. More Hollyweird-ness.
The classic bullet art is the Indian head, traced with a .22 rifle.
The old exhibition shooters used to do that one a lot. Why should
your buddy limit himself to just a smiley face? If he's a real
artist, he ought to go for a reclining nude...
Having replaced more sign windows than I wanted to, I can state that a
BB will usually punch a hole in glass without cracking it. Leaves a
crater on the back. Double strength window glass in the sign, well
supported on all 4 edges. Never caught the little bastard that did
it, so don't know what the BB gun was.
Stan
Paul W. Ross
penetrate a steel tin can at maximum power, and easily go through a
aluminum soda can. I doubt if you will get much of a dent in a steel
automobile hood.
The REAL problem is the danger of ricochette from the pellet or worse
yet, from a .22 LR rimfire. This is NOT a good idea, even with eye
protection! I shoot in a bullseye pistol league, and we have serious
problems at 50' with "splatter" from the backstops, even though they
are angled heavy steel plates.
A better/safer way would be to fake the pock marks with a heavy hammer
and a steel ball bearing. Give it a good whack with a soft backing,
and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. You will also have
your eyes...
Marty
break.
Marty
Anthony
drill bits for glass. All you're going to do with an pellet gun is make a
mess of the glass and dent the sheet metal.
Tony
" Joshua" <Jos...@Jericho.com> wrote in message
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Jim Gaynor
Car body -probably dents. one of the high powered CO2 guns or "pump up"
reservoir type rifles or pistols might produce penetration. Cars aren't what
they used to be.
Glass is harder to predict. i accidently shot a window in my parents house
(ricochet BB) - it made a nice round hole on the outside - larger spalled
area on the inside. I suspect multiple hits would increase the chance of
shattering the pane. Tempered glass is very strong - shots will either have
little effect or shatter the pane completely.
" Joshua" <Jos...@Jericho.com> wrote in message
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Politically Incorrect
good eye protection.
Pollitically Incorrect
Ironho...@mynra.com
Steve M.
won't tell you how I know this. :) Little dents but that's it. He's be
better off finding a shooter friend to assist him with his project. And why
not use 9mm or .45? Bigger holes, easier to see.
Steve
" Joshua" <Jos...@Jericho.com> wrote in message
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Plink
#What sort of penetration can typically be expected from a "handgun" format
#pellet gun?
#I have an old automobile hood that I want to try shooting patterns into,
#will a hand held pellet gun punch holes in the auto sheetmetal or just make
#dents? I'm planning on trying this from ~20 feet.
Pellets, due to being soft lead and hollow, tend to flatten on impact.
Unless you have some serious velocity, don't expect them to penetrate
much metal. BB's will penetrate well, but create a serious ricochet
hazard.
#Also: (Same project) Will low powered air loads (if there IS such a thing)
#make dents or tiny holes, rather than breakage) in glass? I know there are
#different kinds of glass, so I can't address that. He just wants to show
#impact on the glass via a dent or small hole but not shatter the glass.
A lot depends on the glass, but I'd expect shattering. As a kid, I
shot just about anything and everything with a pellet gun and I never
had glass hole or dent. It always shattered. Perhaps windshield safety
glass wouldn't shatter, but that's just a guess.
Mike
Jerry Hollombe
news:b18c2v$gub$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
# What sort of penetration can typically be expected from a "handgun"
# format pellet gun?
# I have an old automobile hood that I want to try shooting patterns
# into, will a hand held pellet gun punch holes in the auto sheetmetal
# or just make dents? I'm planning on trying this from ~20 feet.
Small dents, or maybe just scratches in the paint. If you want to punch
holes, you'll need a high-end air rifle (1200 fps seems like it ought to
work, but I don't guarantee it) or an actual firearm.
# Also: (Same project) Will low powered air loads (if there IS such a
# thing) make dents or tiny holes, rather than breakage) in glass? ...
Depends on the glass and the load. I recently had to make one of my
neighbors' kids pay for replacing some windows after he shot holes in them
with a BB rifle from across the street (unintentionally, I'm pretty sure).
At that range, most of the BBs bounced off, but all created divots
centered around small holes.
Note that automotive window glass is something entirely else. Side and
rear windows are usually tempered glass, which will shatter into small
pieces if hit with a BB. Windshields are triple layer laminates -- the
BBs will leave surface dents and divots, but probably won't penetrate
(watch out for ricochets).
--
Jerry Hollombe, Webmaster
http://thegarret.info/
David Rackley
" Joshua" <Jos...@Jericho.com>
# ...
# I have an old automobile hood that I want to try shooting patterns into,
# will a hand held pellet gun punch holes in the auto sheetmetal or just
make
# dents? I'm planning on trying this from ~20 feet.
Pellet pistols vary in power. Anything from dents to bouncing off. From 20
ft, I wouldn't expect much. Wear eye protection. Often they will bounce
straight back.
# What I'm trying to do is create patterns a' la the smiley face in the
movie
# "Lethal Weapon".
Good luck. I can't do a good smiley face with a pistol shooting at a target
even 6 ft away
# I'm the "tech support" on this project for a friend of mine who's an
artist
# wanting to "create" in a unique way. Artists... go figure. I wanted
him
# to use .22 rimfire, but he wants to do this in his basement or backyard.
FYI, most cities have laws prohibiting the discharge of pellet guns within
city limits.
# Also: (Same project) Will low powered air loads (if there IS such a
thing)
# make dents or tiny holes, rather than breakage) in glass?
Mostly they make a small hole on the striking face and punch out a small
circular cone of glass on the opposite face. Kind of reminds you of what
your windshield looks like when it struck by a rock.
The most interesting art of this kind I saw was some copper sheets that had
blasting cord or plastic explosive laid on it, then detonated. The blast
pattern warped the metal sheet underneath and made some iteresting patterns.
Dave
Joshua
The answers I got are about what I expected. I have my share of experience
with handguns and rifles, but the last air powered arm I shot was my Red
Ryder BB gun and that was more years ago than I care to recall. So I
didn't have any direct experience with the capabilities of pellets/BBs.
I've convinced my buddy to go another route. Rather than accept my
donation of the auto hood, he's going to have some sheetmetal cut to shapes
he specifies. Then I'm going to donate my "armory" and "skills" to punch
..22, 9mm, and .45ACP sized holes in a pattern of his design. He actually
likes the idea of mixing differing hole sizes for effect. We'll see if my
shooting is up to what he wants to do....
To me it's self-evident that I'll be using eye/ear protection as I do any
time I go to the range.
Thanks again for the insight.
" Joshua" <Jos...@Jericho.com> wrote in message
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Joseph Oberlander
# On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Joshua wrote:
#
# # pellet gun?
# # I have an old automobile hood that I want to try shooting patterns into,
# # will a hand held pellet gun punch holes in the auto sheetmetal or just make
# # dents? I'm planning on trying this from ~20 feet.
#
# It will just make dents. If you fire a pellet pistol at a heavy
# piece of sheet metal such as an automobile hood some of the pellets
# are likely to bounce back and injure you. Don't try this unless you
# are wearing some very heavy duty eye protection shield or goggles.
There is one pellet that I know of that may work - Promotheus. These have
a full plastic skirt and a hard alloy head. They are lighter and faster
than any other pellet that you can buy. *they also contain no lead*
If he plans to do this in his basement, then he should get a silent
pellet trap and these pellets as he can fire off thousands of rounds
and have zero lead exposure to deal with.
I once shot one out of a RWS 38(34 with a 40 series stock) and it punched
right through a 2*4 - built for pure penetration. Of course, these are
too light to use in a spring piston rifle more than a couple of times
without damaging it.
They are safe, though, in pre-charged, CO2, and pneumatic air rifles.
I'd personally recommend a pre-charged rifle as they are the most accurate
and most powerful that you can buy. He wants to be shooting these pellets
at the highest velocities that he can to make clean holes. They also allow
for near zero fatigue (only the bolt to cock), well over a hundred shots
from a large canister, plus many are repeaters.
http://www.straightshooters.com - you can look at reviews here. I personally
recommend the BSA Super 10 with heavier Prometheus pellets.
The Air-Arms S410 series is even better, though, as it has an integrated
silencer built into the barrel. It's legal as it is part of the barrel, much
like porting is(think of it as hundreds of tiny vent/port holes). It is very
quiet for the power, has a 10-shot rotary magazine, and is single-hole accurate.
The S-410E is the higher-power version, which he should look at. It will
be the best thing to a real .22 that he can buy for his artwork - just
safer, quieter, and more accurate.
http://www.straightshooters.com/fx/fxhandpump.html
This is a typical hand-pump, though most people just spend the $3-$5 for
a refil at the local scuba shop.
Joseph Lovell
Joshua wrote:
> ...
Just remember that the hole from the .22 will look about like a 9mm, the
9mm will look like a .45 and the .45 will look like a round from a Brown
Bess.
Take your time, use a rest.
Pbob45lc
most that have a vel of 1000 fps will do it unless its a real old car 50 60
that used real steal then it won't same gun should handle glass except auto
glass wear some eye protection if you plan to carry this through
Michael Chen
yards dent a heavy gauged steel body of a chevy truck. The Pre Charged airgun
puts out a 21 grain round nosed pellet at 810 fps from the muzzle. I suspect
at 30 yards it is down to maybe 740 fps. The dents were about 1/8 to 1/4 inch
in depth. No bernelling of the metal sufficient to cause fatigue, cracking and
penetration. Perhaps at maybe a foot or two from the muzzle you may get a
crack in the metal.
Jerry Hollombe wrote:
> ...