taurus raging bull in 454 casull has some problems
roy olofson
casull revolver.
I ran the ballistics program on all the ammo loads for sale at corbon
for the 454 casull and found very little difference in trajectory over
the 175 yards when zeroed in at 150 yards for all the loads. There was
only one or one and onehalf inches difference at the height of the
ballistical path at 75 yards or so. However, there was a huge
difference in knockdown power promised for each type of load. The
prices varied only by $10 per box between the worst load offered and
the best. For average loads the price was the same as their most
powerful. So I opted for their premium load, the 454 casull 360 grain
penetrator designed to punch through the shoulder bone of grizzly or
African dangerous game and still hit the vitals. The other loads may
shatter on the bone of dangerous game making the gun less effective.
Anyways, I fired the 360 grain penetrator through both my raging bull
and freedom arms revolvers at the firing range. The freedom arms
behaved fine. Although for one moment I had trouble cocking the hammer
as though it had jammed. I checked it later upon field stripping for
cleaning and found it to be unscratched.The cylinder has to be
unscrewed since it's single action.
However, the raging bull also jammed at the range. I did manage to
solve the problem by openning revolver as if to reload and closing it
again in a different chamber. However, when I cleaned it later at home
in better lighting conditions for it had gotten dark at the range
guess what I found. The top of the breech end of the bore where it
mates with the cylinder was scatched noticeably. There was a HUGE
strip of copper jacket material lodged on top of the outside of the
breech against the guns frame on top of the barell right in front of
the cylinders.
The man at Corbon told me that both revolvers should have no problem
with the load when I bought it. The freedom arms seems to handle it
ok. The taurus sucks however.
I don't mean to knock taurus for nothing. The accident just happened,
that's all. It is serious because over time this type of malfunction
can create an obstruction causing the gun to explode in your hands.
Itisn't so simple a matter to just say go to different ammo. This load
was the only one by any company I found besides the 320 grain
penetrator by corbon that was constructed to punch down and through
even the largest of game on the face of the earth.
To get similar results as this load it would have been necessary to
scrap the gun and get a different caliber that has good powerful ammo
made in the average load size for the gun to guarrantee no problems. I
haven't done the research so I'm not sure which but something like
maybe: 444 marlin, 45 70 govt, 440 corbon, 50 action express revolvers
or single shot contenders or lone eagles in 308 win 30 06 or whatever
rifle load suits the game .
I'm truly dissapointed in the raging bull. I know they only tested and
approved it for lesser loads in 454. But, there is no other way in
this gun unfriendly country to get the facts except to buy one and try
it for yourself.
Truly dissapointing....... At least I have the freedom arms revolver.
It's not double action. However, who cares the darn raging bull is so
hard to cock double action that I couldn't hit a barn side without
pulling the hammer back first and then aiming.
An older gentleman at the range said he thought the raging bull was
the better gun because the rubber grips felt slightly better to him
upon recoil. I wish he could have seen the bullets jacket stripped and
jammed up the breech. It would have made his hair stand up and changed
his opinion damned fast.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn about rec.guns at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
Bill Smith
olofson) wrote:
> ...
When you consulted Taurus about the problem, what did they say? It
sounds to me as if you have a cylinder/barrel misalignment. If so it
should be covered under warranty. With any quality assurance program,
a few bad parts will always slip through, that's what warranties are
for. Taurus has a lifetime warranty (last time I checked), whether you
bought the gun new or not. Give them a chance to make it right. If
they don't correct the problem, then you have a legitimate gripe.
Bill Smith
Keith Whaley
roy olofson wrote:
#
# I recently bougt a taurus raging bull and a premier freedom arms 454
# casull revolver.
#
# I ran the ballistics program on all the ammo loads for sale at corbon
# for the 454 casull and found very little difference in trajectory over
# the 175 yards when zeroed in at 150 yards for all the loads. There was
# only one or one and one half inches difference at the height of the
# ballistical path at 75 yards or so. However, there was a huge
# difference in knockdown power promised for each type of load. The
# prices varied only by $10 per box between the worst load offered and
# the best. For average loads the price was the same as their most
# powerful. So I opted for their premium load, the 454 casull 360 grain
# penetrator designed to punch through the shoulder bone of grizzly or
# African dangerous game and still hit the vitals. The other loads may
# shatter on the bone of dangerous game making the gun less effective.
Whose loads were these? Who made them? Corbon?
# Anyways, I fired the 360 grain penetrator through both my raging bull
# and freedom arms revolvers at the firing range. The freedom arms
# behaved fine. Although for one moment I had trouble cocking the hammer
# as though it had jammed. I checked it later upon field stripping for
# cleaning and found it to be unscratched.The cylinder has to be
# unscrewed since it's single action.
That's probably the cylinder pin, not the cylinder! <smile>
# However, the raging bull also jammed at the range. I did manage to
# solve the problem by openning revolver as if to reload and closing it
# again in a different chamber. However, when I cleaned it later at home
# in better lighting conditions for it had gotten dark at the range
# guess what I found. The top of the breech end of the bore where it
# mates with the cylinder was scatched noticeably.
You mean the rear face of the barrel?
# There was a HUGE
# strip of copper jacket material lodged on top of the outside of the
# breech against the guns frame on top of the barell right in front of
# the cylinders.
This comes from the bullet's too-thin jacket material stripping
off. What happens is, as sthe bullet leaves the cylinder mouth,
the base of the bullet expands. That expanded portion of the
bullet slams into the forcing cone, and for a brief instant, the
jacket comes to a stop and the rest of the bullet continues,
stripping the jacket and jacket base off and leaving it in the vicinity!
That's what you were finding jammed here and there ~ jacket base material.
You will not find that with Freedom Arms bullets, because they
are made a lot thicker at the base than most other bullets are.
They found this problem many years ago, and made it thicker. For
exactly that very reason! End of problem. For Freedom Arms, anyhow!
I just looked at Freedom Arms web site, and I don't think they
sell loaded cartridges NOR bullets anymore!
Now, that's a shame! They made excellent bullets, and their 300
grainers would NOT strip at any speed.
Fortunately I still have some left!
Realize that at their factory loading, developing 1625 fps, the
muzzle energy of that bullet is 1750 ft. lbs!
What does Corbon say their 360 gr. penetrator develops?
Or, the 320 gr. Penetrator, for that matter. Interesting to compare...
# The man at Corbon told me that both revolvers should have no problem
# with the load when I bought it. The freedom arms seems to handle it
# ok. The taurus sucks however.
What he meant was, no problem with the pressure that load
develops. Probably true. He may not even know that their bullet's
bases are too thin. Oh well...
# I don't mean to knock taurus for nothing. The accident just happened,
# that's all. It is serious because over time this type of malfunction
# can create an obstruction causing the gun to explode in your hands.
#
# Itisn't so simple a matter to just say go to different ammo. This load
# was the only one by any company I found besides the 320 grain
# penetrator by corbon that was constructed to punch down and through
# even the largest of game on the face of the earth.
So they say.
Hardly good if their bullet bases are too thin for the pressure
developed in their cartridges, and the jacket rips off!
The first thing you have to do is get the bullet out of the barrel!
# To get similar results as this load it would have been necessary to
# scrap the gun and get a different caliber that has good powerful ammo
# made in the average load size for the gun to guarrantee no problems. I
# haven't done the research so I'm not sure which but something like
# maybe: 444 marlin, 45 70 govt, 440 corbon, 50 action express revolvers
# or single shot contenders or lone eagles in 308 win 30 06 or whatever
# rifle load suits the game .
#
# I'm truly dissapointed in the raging bull. I know they only tested and
# approved it for lesser loads in 454. But, there is no other way in
# this gun unfriendly country to get the facts except to buy one and try
# it for yourself.
#
# Truly dissapointing....... At least I have the freedom arms revolver.
# It's not double action. However, who cares the darn raging bull is so
# hard to cock double action that I couldn't hit a barn side without
# pulling the hammer back first and then aiming.
That's because the bullet material is holding the cylinder from
turning freely, isn't it? Or do you see another problem?
# An older gentleman at the range said he thought the raging bull was
# the better gun because the rubber grips felt slightly better to him
# upon recoil.
Oh boy, another self-trained expert...
# I wish he could have seen the bullets jacket stripped and
# jammed up the breech. It would have made his hair stand up and changed
# his opinion damned fast.
Keith Whaley - pistolsmith
WHALEY's Gunsmithing
Los Angeles, CA
hamrdog
you say you went with the most powerful 454 loads you could find, you say
even the Freedom Arms revolver may have jammed for a bit, you say you may
need to look for some other revolver caliber that is loaded in "normal"
ranges to take down any animal on the planet, and then you complain that
there was a single incident of bullet jacket separation (using the highest
454 loading you could find) and you use all this as basis to say the taurus
is crap????? it sounds like you are using Cor-Bon ammo that pushes the 454
round to its maximum limits and this ammo will probably show the problems
you found in any revolver, if you fire it enough.
i've fired normal full-power 454 rounds from the Raging Bull, and i found it
to be quite a handgun (not the same as a Freedom Arms costing at least twice
as much, but still a darn good revolver).
andy b.
"roy olofson" <olof...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a7pr09$690$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
Peter McMullen
Keith Whaley wrote:
<snippage>
#
# So they say.
# Hardly good if their bullet bases are too thin for the pressure
# developed in their cartridges, and the jacket rips off!
# The first thing you have to do is get the bullet out of the barrel!
#
<more snippage>
#
# # An older gentleman at the range said he thought the raging bull was
# # the better gun because the rubber grips felt slightly better to him
# # upon recoil.
#
# Oh boy, another self-trained expert...
#
# # I wish he could have seen the bullets jacket stripped and
# # jammed up the breech. It would have made his hair stand up and changed
# # his opinion damned fast.
#
# Keith Whaley - pistolsmith
# WHALEY's Gunsmithing
# Los Angeles, CA
#
Just for reference, I've shot maybe 60 of the 360 grain Corbons in mine
without encountering this problem. The 360 grain Corbon may be a tad more than
the recommended loads anyway. If I recall, it seemed to me the combination of
the grain and velocity recommended by Taurus called for no more than a 330
grain or so.What I *have* seen is that the cases tend to snug up in the
cylinder chambers more than a nominal load, but they still eject without
forcing.
But boy, do it go boom!
:o)
Avatar
:
: I'm truly dissapointed in the raging bull. I know they only tested and
: approved it for lesser loads in 454. But, there is no other way in
: this gun unfriendly country to get the facts except to buy one and try
: it for yourself.
You could have read a manual on Taurus's website which states that the
recommended hi-end for .454 casull in their pistols is 300gr. What you
are firing exceeds that and the manual also would tell you that doing so
is your right, but could invalidate your warranty if a problem occurs.
: An older gentleman at the range said he thought the raging bull was
: the better gun because the rubber grips felt slightly better to him
: upon recoil. I wish he could have seen the bullets jacket stripped and
: jammed up the breech. It would have made his hair stand up and changed
: his opinion damned fast.
The taurus grips are far superior in comfort feel to me than the standard
grips on the freedom arms revolvers.
Either way you might want to contact taurus about service on the raging
bull, because this does not sound like standard function. You seem to be
just accepting that this will happen and not interested in making any
effort to resolve the problem. If you send it back and they can't fix it
and replace it and you get the same problem, then sure you can bad mouth
it all you want. You could just have a problem in your raging bull,
though. I've not heard of any other cases like yours about them. Could
just be a fluke.
Avatar
John Cowart
#
# Anyways, I fired the 360 grain penetrator through both my raging bull
# and freedom arms revolvers at the firing range. The freedom arms
# behaved fine...
# However, the raging bull also jammed at the range.
# The freedom arms seems to handle it
# ok. The taurus sucks however.
Wrong - take a look at the owner's manual. The Taurus is only rated for
up to a 300gr. bullet at 1625fps. See
http://www.taurususa.com/manuals/revolver.pdf on page 9
Even the 300gr. Cor-Bon load exceeds that rating by a small amount.
John Cowart
cl
news:a7rb46$nol$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Whose loads were these? Who made them? Corbon?
360 grain penetrators are Corbon
# # There was a HUGE
# # strip of copper jacket material lodged on top of the outside of the
# # breech against the guns frame on top of the barell right in front of
# # the cylinders.
#
# This comes from the bullet's too-thin jacket material stripping
# off. What happens is, as sthe bullet leaves the cylinder mouth,
# the base of the bullet expands. That expanded portion of the
# bullet slams into the forcing cone, and for a brief instant, the
# jacket comes to a stop and the rest of the bullet continues,
# stripping the jacket and jacket base off and leaving it in the vicinity!
# That's what you were finding jammed here and there ~ jacket base material.
Sound more like a timing problem to me. You realize the they are bonded
hard,not virgin lead cores right?
They should have an issue with core separation-otherwise the FA would have
the same problem also.
# You will not find that with Freedom Arms bullets, because they
# are made a lot thicker at the base than most other bullets are.
# They found this problem many years ago, and made it thicker. For
# exactly that very reason! End of problem. For Freedom Arms, anyhow!
# I just looked at Freedom Arms web site, and I don't think they
# sell loaded cartridges NOR bullets anymore!
Winchester is now loading that bullets IIRC
# Now, that's a shame! They made excellent bullets, and their 300
# grainers would NOT strip at any speed.
# Fortunately I still have some left!
This isn't a problem anymore, even hornady produces "Magnum" XTPs just for
loading in the 454.
Your more likely to put cracks in your forcing cone than strip a jacket
now'days
# Realize that at their factory loading, developing 1625 fps, the
# muzzle energy of that bullet is 1750 ft. lbs!
# What does Corbon say their 360 gr. penetrator develops?
# Or, the 320 gr. Penetrator, for that matter. Interesting to compare...
1500fps,1600fps respectively
#
# # The man at Corbon told me that both revolvers should have no problem
# # with the load when I bought it. The freedom arms seems to handle it
# # ok. The taurus sucks however.
#
# What he meant was, no problem with the pressure that load
# develops. Probably true. He may not even know that their bullet's
# bases are too thin. Oh well.
Do you know anything about Corbons history? :) Lets just say, I don't think
they have any problems.
...
#
# # I don't mean to knock taurus for nothing. The accident just happened,
# # that's all. It is serious because over time this type of malfunction
# # can create an obstruction causing the gun to explode in your hands.
# #
# # Itisn't so simple a matter to just say go to different ammo. This load
# # was the only one by any company I found besides the 320 grain
# # penetrator by corbon that was constructed to punch down and through
# # even the largest of game on the face of the earth.
#
# So they say.
# Hardly good if their bullet bases are too thin for the pressure
# developed in their cartridges, and the jacket rips off!
# The first thing you have to do is get the bullet out of the barrel!
Have you ever seen a crosssection of these bullets, very thick jacket.
# Keith Whaley - pistolsmith
# WHALEY's Gunsmithing
# Los Angeles, CA
-CAL
TSH
# casull revolver.
#
# for the 454 casull and found very little difference in trajectory over
# the 175 yards when zeroed in at 150 yards for all the loads. There was
# only one or one and onehalf inches difference at the height of the
# ballistical path at 75 yards or so. However, there was a huge
# difference in knockdown power promised for each type of load. The
# prices varied only by $10 per box between the worst load offered and
# the best. For average loads the price was the same as their most
# powerful. So I opted for their premium load, the 454 casull 360 grain
# penetrator designed to punch through the shoulder bone of grizzly or
# African dangerous game and still hit the vitals. The other loads may
# shatter on the bone of dangerous game making the gun less effective.
#
# Anyways, I fired the 360 grain penetrator through both my raging bull
# and freedom arms revolvers at the firing range. The freedom arms
# behaved fine. Although for one moment I had trouble cocking the hammer
# as though it had jammed. I checked it later upon field stripping for
# cleaning and found it to be unscratched.The cylinder has to be
# unscrewed since it's single action.
#
# However, the raging bull also jammed at the range. I did manage to
# solve the problem by openning revolver as if to reload and closing it
# again in a different chamber. However, when I cleaned it later at home
# in better lighting conditions for it had gotten dark at the range
# guess what I found. The top of the breech end of the bore where it
# mates with the cylinder was scatched noticeably. There was a HUGE
# strip of copper jacket material lodged on top of the outside of the
# breech against the guns frame on top of the barell right in front of
# the cylinders.
#
# The man at Corbon told me that both revolvers should have no problem
# with the load when I bought it. The freedom arms seems to handle it
# ok. The taurus sucks however.
#
# I don't mean to knock taurus for nothing. The accident just happened,
# that's all. It is serious because over time this type of malfunction
# can create an obstruction causing the gun to explode in your hands.
#
# Itisn't so simple a matter to just say go to different ammo. This load
# was the only one by any company I found besides the 320 grain
# penetrator by corbon that was constructed to punch down and through
# even the largest of game on the face of the earth.
#
# To get similar results as this load it would have been necessary to
# scrap the gun and get a different caliber that has good powerful ammo
# made in the average load size for the gun to guarrantee no problems. I
# haven't done the research so I'm not sure which but something like
# maybe: 444 marlin, 45 70 govt, 440 corbon, 50 action express revolvers
# or single shot contenders or lone eagles in 308 win 30 06 or whatever
# rifle load suits the game .
#
# I'm truly dissapointed in the raging bull. I know they only tested and
# approved it for lesser loads in 454. But, there is no other way in
# this gun unfriendly country to get the facts except to buy one and try
# it for yourself.
#
# It's not double action. However, who cares the darn raging bull is so
# hard to cock double action that I couldn't hit a barn side without
# pulling the hammer back first and then aiming.
#
# An older gentleman at the range said he thought the raging bull was
# the better gun because the rubber grips felt slightly better to him
# upon recoil. I wish he could have seen the bullets jacket stripped and
# jammed up the breech. It would have made his hair stand up and changed
# his opinion damned fast.
owner's manual said this is the "hottest" engine that would come in that
model and that was all it could handle, so I says to meself, I think I'll
just plop me a good old fashioned Huey Jet Helicopter engine in there.
Well I also had an old Freightliner 18ton truck and I did the same. Well
watta' ya' know, the dang piece of crap Mustang didn't handle the engine
load, but the Freightliner did great. The Mustang is a pieice of crap."
Sounds like the same logic doesn't it. And they wonder why McDonalds puts a
"caution hot liquid" on the lid of the coffee. It's for DOPES like this
guy!!!
hank...@gmail.com
My Son and I were target shooting today, he has a Taurus Raging Bull 454 8"
Barrel I think he was using 260 grain shells. When he got to 4th shell the
5th shell fired right after it He did not pull the trigger it just fired by
itself it was like pop pop real quick. We looked the gun over and did not
notice any damage so he fired about 10 more rounds with no problem. Has anyone
ever had this happen with the 454 Taurus Raging Bull?
Thank You...
Gunner Asch
#Hello...
#
#My Son and I were target shooting today, he has a Taurus Raging Bull 454 8"
#Barrel I think he was using 260 grain shells. When he got to 4th shell the
#5th shell fired right after it He did not pull the trigger it just fired by
#itself it was like pop pop real quick. We looked the gun over and did not
#notice any damage so he fired about 10 more rounds with no problem. Has anyone
#ever had this happen with the 454 Taurus Raging Bull?
#
#Thank You...
I suspect he double stroked the trigger. If it fired while #4 was
still in front of the barrel...#5 should have damaged the side of the
revolver.
If it fired #5 in line with the barrel....he double stroked the
trigger.
Its not a semi automatic..so it wont revolve the cylinder by
itself..he had to have done it..
That can be an issue with potent cartridges...shock to the nerves in
the wrist..and it can cause a spasm...including the trigger finger.
Martin Eastburn
Did the trigger (internal) bounce ? Can it move if the finger trigger
depressed ? I'm thinking of the hammer double striking on a bounce.
Just a thought and it should not work this way if it does seems to me.
Going into auto mode of some sort...
New guns have new internal designs that might bring interesting results.
Martin
Steve W.
# Hello...
#
# My Son and I were target shooting today, he has a Taurus Raging Bull 454 8"
# Barrel I think he was using 260 grain shells. When he got to 4th shell the
# 5th shell fired right after it He did not pull the trigger it just fired by
# itself it was like pop pop real quick. We looked the gun over and did not
# notice any damage so he fired about 10 more rounds with no problem. Has anyone
# ever had this happen with the 454 Taurus Raging Bull?
#
# Thank You...
#
Well being a revolver about the only way that can happen is if you pull
the trigger twice. Not an uncommon thing with a stout recoiling pistol.
You pull the trigger, the gun recoils in your hand and as it returns to
position you reflexively tighten your grip. Trigger finger pulls and you
get the second shot.
--
Steve W.
hank...@gmail.com
# hank...@gmail.com wrote:
# # Hello...
# #
# # 5th shell fired right after it He did not pull the trigger it just fired by
# # itself it was like pop pop real quick. We looked the gun over and did not
# # notice any damage so he fired about 10 more rounds with no problem. Has anyone
# # ever had this happen with the 454 Taurus Raging Bull?
# # Thank You...
#
# You pull the trigger, the gun recoils in your hand and as it returns to
# position you reflexively tighten your grip. Trigger finger pulls and you
# get the second shot.
#
# --
# Steve W.
OK thank you for the answers makes sense that he just jerked with the recoil.
Shot it again a few days ago this time no problems.
-Hank
Gunner Asch
#On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 5:07:45 PM UTC-4, Steve wrote:
## hank...@gmail.com wrote:
## # Hello...
## #
## # My Son and I were target shooting today, he has a Taurus Raging Bull 454 8"
## # Barrel I think he was using 260 grain shells. When he got to 4th shell the
## # 5th shell fired right after it He did not pull the trigger it just fired by
## # itself it was like pop pop real quick. We looked the gun over and did not
## # notice any damage so he fired about 10 more rounds with no problem. Has anyone
## # ever had this happen with the 454 Taurus Raging Bull?
## #
## # Thank You...
## #
##
## Well being a revolver about the only way that can happen is if you pull
## the trigger twice. Not an uncommon thing with a stout recoiling pistol.
## You pull the trigger, the gun recoils in your hand and as it returns to
## position you reflexively tighten your grip. Trigger finger pulls and you
## get the second shot.
##
## --
## Steve W.
#
#
#OK thank you for the answers makes sense that he just jerked with the recoil.
#Shot it again a few days ago this time no problems.
#
#-Hank
Shrug..it happens, particularly to newbies to heavy recoiling
handguns. As his skills and muscle control improve..it wont happen
again. Getting off multiple shots in rapid fire ..aimed..takes much
work
Gunner