Has anyone ever fired a Sten with black powder reloads?
Jack Linthicum
in the 19th century with the controlling factor being the ammunition.
Black powder can cause fouling but the operation of the Sten is so
simple that the prospect of feed being stopped by fouling is not high.
Quote from one gun user in the W-I group:
"Most of the residue will be either in the barrel, and get pushed out
by the
next shot, or around the breech and bolt head.
There's very little to clog up here. It's an open bolt weapon and
the
firing pin is just a bump of the bolt face.
You'd need sufficient fouling to stop the cartridges feeding, and
that's a
hell of a lot.
You can shoot a Colt Single Action Army all day and still feed rounds
through the loading gate without problems from black powder fouling,
and a
Sten has a considerably more robust feed mechanism than that.
You're probably looking at a residue accretion on the bolt face that
is
deeper than the firing pin is long to actually stop the gun working,
and so
it'll have to be of measurable thickness, and possibly avoidable by
making
the pin a bit longer. "
Anyone done the Sten with black powder?
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"Jack Linthicum" <jackli...@earthlink.net>
wrote in message
news:fq7dv2$rie$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
#
# Anyone done the Sten with black powder?
#
Not a Sten, but I have seen video somewhere of a
Thompson firing a drum full of
blackpowder 45 ACP loads. Actually, it was more
like saw it fire the first ten
rounds or so, and heard the rest. Kind of a big
cloud of powder smoke!
George
I doubt anybody ever has. You probably can't get enough powder in the case
to provide enough energy to operate the mechanism.
George in Las Vegas
nick hull
Jack Linthicum <jackli...@earthlink.net> wrote:
# Question from a What-if group on the ability to duplicate a Sten gun
# in the 19th century with the controlling factor being the ammunition.
The problem isn't fouling, you just cannot put enough black powder into
a 9mm case to operate ANY self loading firearm.
Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
.
haraoi...@yahoo.com
wrote:
# Question from a What-if group on the ability to duplicate a Sten gun
# in the 19th century with the controlling factor being the ammunition.
# Black powder can cause fouling but the operation of the Sten is so
# simple that the prospect of feed being stopped by fouling is not high.
# Quote from one gun user in the W-I group:
#
# "Most of the residue will be either in the barrel, and get pushed out
# by the
# next shot, or around the breech and bolt head.
#
OK. I'll bite. There will be corrosive fouling in ever nook and cranny
of the receiver, bolt and firing mechanism. Complete dissaembly, and
cleaning with water will be needed to remove the carbon/sulfur laden
compounds. Primers of the day used fulminate of mercury. I beleive the
residues of this were also corrosive?
If you are trying to deterimine if the South could have won the
American Civil War by some how manufacturing Sten guns, then my answer
would be, "No." They couldn't manufacture enough Colt and Remington
pattern muzzle loading revolvers. You could argue that the Sten is
easier to manufacture. Ok, now what? You still need enough brass and
an industrial base to supply these guns with ammunition. It is just
beyond my suspended disbelief that the South could somehow invent an
industrial base with just a set of Sten plans. The book does make an
entertaining read though.
BillM
"nick hull" <nh...@isp.com> wrote in message
# The problem isn't fouling, you just cannot put
# enough black powder into
# a 9mm case to operate ANY self loading
# firearm.
Pretty bold statement.
I would be willing to wager that I can get a
Glock 17 to reliably operate on
black powder loads.
Bill
jadel
# in the 19th century with the controlling factor being the ammunition.
# Black powder can cause fouling but the operation of the Sten is so
# simple that the prospect of feed being stopped by fouling is not high.
Many Stens weren't all that reliable with the proper ammo. BP would
just make things worse.
As others have pointed out, a BP 9mm parabellum round would most
likely not produce enough "oomph" to work the action reliably.
It is true that the Sten resembled "an ill-fitted assortment of
plumbing parts," so manufacture wouldn't be the problem.
J. Del Col
jadel
feed caused by the magazine's design and position.. Any BP fouling
at all would just make things worse.
Also consider that making centerfire cartridges would be a challenge
to any era that had never seen them or understood their chemistry,
etc.
Most "what if" scenarios fail to take into account the complexity of
modern technology compared to the state of knowledge at whatever time
period the scenario is set. Sure, one guy with a tommygun would wreak
havoc at Thermopylae, but when the ammo ran out, he'd die from a spear
or sword thrust like everyone else. Resupply is tough when nobody's
even dreamt of the technology you're using and won't for about two
thousand years.
The only credible "what if" scenarios involve contemporary
technologies that one side or the other failed to understand or
exploit.
J. Del Col
WaltBJ
Obviously the recoil spring and the bolt would have to be 'tuned' to
work with the lower recoil forces. Thus the answer is yes, of course.
So would an old M3 grease gun modified the same way. A blow-back
mechanism doesn't care where the recoil comes from as long as the
force matches the requirements for operation..
What would the effect be like on the target end? Enough to injure or
kill, that's for sure. More than an old 41 rimfire, less than a 36
Colt Navy pistol. (More BP in the 36).
Yes, it would take boiling water to clean it, but so what?
FWIW there was a test where an electric motor driven gatling fired
something like 3000 rpm with BP cartridges - ISTR it was discussed in
one of the Ezell books on military firearms. Sorry - I don't have the
book nor remember its title.
BTW I have been on the firing line when about 50 men cut loose with BP
revolvers in rapid fire - smoke city!
Good point on the CSA's lack of manufacturing capability. The other
case - the North - both Sten and M3 were capable of being made on a
combination automatic screw machines and stamp presses. Thus the M3
cost about 8 bucks. And looked it, but it shot well. BT, DT
Walt BJ
dj_nme
# On Feb 28, 5:52 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi...@earthlink.net>
# wrote:
# # Question from a What-if group on the ability to duplicate a Sten gun
# # in the 19th century with the controlling factor being the ammunition.
# # Black powder can cause fouling but the operation of the Sten is so
# # simple that the prospect of feed being stopped by fouling is not high.
# # Quote from one gun user in the W-I group:
# #
# # "Most of the residue will be either in the barrel, and get pushed out
# # next shot, or around the breech and bolt head.
# #
#
# cleaning with water will be needed to remove the carbon/sulfur laden
# compounds. Primers of the day used fulminate of mercury. I beleive the
# residues of this were also corrosive?
I suppose that this would be a problem at the end of the day when
field-stripping and cleaning the weapon, but would this fouling actually
stop a Sten Gun styled SMG from functioning?
# If you are trying to deterimine if the South could have won the
# American Civil War by some how manufacturing Sten guns, then my answer
# would be, "No." They couldn't manufacture enough Colt and Remington
# pattern muzzle loading revolvers. You could argue that the Sten is
# easier to manufacture. Ok, now what? You still need enough brass and
# an industrial base to supply these guns with ammunition. <snip>
That seems to be the major flaw in the "what if" genre: that modern
weapon X is cheaper/easier to produce the actual weapon itself than
other weapons of the day, but it's shot down by the highly
industrialised back-end required to supply it with ammunition or that
complex cybernetic controls (Google up "Maschinen Kriege" for an
example) weren't possible with the then "state of the art".
nick hull
"BillM" <bill...@verizon.net> wrote:
# "nick hull" <nh...@isp.com> wrote in message
#
#
# # The problem isn't fouling, you just cannot put
# # enough black powder into
# # a 9mm case to operate ANY self loading
# # firearm.
#
#
# Pretty bold statement.
#
# I would be willing to wager that I can get a
# Glock 17 to reliably operate on
# black powder loads.
I invite you to try and report back to us.
Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
.
nick hull
jadel <delc...@ab.edu> wrote:
# The only credible "what if" scenarios involve contemporary
# technologies that one side or the other failed to understand or
# exploit.
Such as a suppressor was probably possible with 1776 era flintlocks,
especially the breachloaders. Would have required a BIG can and fouled
quickly but would have been useful in offing sentries or for hit & run
sniping.
Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
.
nick hull
WaltBJ <walt...@mindspring.com> wrote:
# The question was - could a Sten operate with BP in the cartridges.
# Obviously the recoil spring and the bolt would have to be 'tuned' to
# work with the lower recoil forces. Thus the answer is yes, of course.
Under those circumstances, if you tuned the Sten to operate on .380
ammo, it might operate on BP 9mm. A .45acp M3 might be easier since it
is a low pressure load not high pressure like 9mm.
Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
.
BillM
# In article
# <fqbhec$9iq$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
# "BillM" <bill...@verizon.net> wrote:
#
# # "nick hull" <nh...@isp.com> wrote in message
# #
# #
# # # The problem isn't fouling, you just cannot
# # # enough black powder into
# # # a 9mm case to operate ANY self loading
# # # firearm.
# #
# #
# # Pretty bold statement.
# #
# # I would be willing to wager that I can get a
# # black powder loads.
#
# I invite you to try and report back to us.
I'll give it a try Nick. Probably won't be
really soon, running a 60+ hr
work week for at least a couple of months.
I've got a 2nd Generation G17 set up for USPSA
Production division
that's really smooth. Probably drop the recoil
spring down to an 11 lb.
ISMI, compressed load of FFFFg Goex, WSPM
primer, and a 147 gr
molycoat bullet. If it works I'll post it with
pix on the Brian Enos
forums and put a link here. Heck----if I can
get the Glock to run on BP,
I'll try running a magazine full (32 rds)
through my 9mm AR.
Bill
dj_nme
# In article <fqbhf4$9j8$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
# jadel <delc...@ab.edu> wrote:
#
# # The only credible "what if" scenarios involve contemporary
# # technologies that one side or the other failed to understand or
# # exploit.
#
# Such as a suppressor was probably possible with 1776 era flintlocks,
# especially the breachloaders. Would have required a BIG can and fouled
# quickly but would have been useful in offing sentries or for hit & run
# sniping.
Wouldn't the ignition of the priming powder in the pan be loud enough to
make silencing the muzzle blast rather a moot point?
Doug T
# forums and put a link here. Heck----if I can
# get the Glock to run on BP,
# I'll try running a magazine full (32 rds)
# through my 9mm AR.
#
# Bill
#
Just remember the AR is a gas operated firearm and all that fouling will
be going into the long skinny gas tube.
Doug T
sta...@prolynx.com
wrote:
# Question from a What-if group on the ability to duplicate a Sten gun
# in the 19th century with the controlling factor being the ammunition.
# Black powder can cause fouling but the operation of the Sten is so
# simple that the prospect of feed being stopped by fouling is not high.
# Quote from one gun user in the W-I group:
#
# "Most of the residue will be either in the barrel, and get pushed out
# by the
# next shot, or around the breech and bolt head.
#
# There's very little to clog up here. It's an open bolt weapon and
# the
# firing pin is just a bump of the bolt face.
#
# You'd need sufficient fouling to stop the cartridges feeding, and
# that's a
# hell of a lot.
#
# You can shoot a Colt Single Action Army all day and still feed rounds
# through the loading gate without problems from black powder fouling,
# and a
# Sten has a considerably more robust feed mechanism than that.
#
# You're probably looking at a residue accretion on the bolt face that
# is
# deeper than the firing pin is long to actually stop the gun working,
# and so
# it'll have to be of measurable thickness, and possibly avoidable by
# making
# the pin a bit longer. "
#
# Anyone done the Sten with black powder?
#
Nope, not personally. But what you'd have is an anemic rimless .38
S&W. Check the case dimensions and tell me I'm wrong...
Much would depend on what decade we're talking about here. Solid
drawn brass cases weren't reliably made to close tolerances until the
mid-to-late 1870s in the US, much later in the rest of the world.
Before that, cartridge cases were thin shells of copper because that's
what could be deep drawn. Sticky extraction was the least of the
problems.
There's a whole lot of industrial base behind that simple Sten gun,
too. You'd need good steel(open hearth furnaces), good metallurgical
and chemical analysis facilities in the steel and brass
mills(cartridge brass is a precision-made material), and a lot of
machinery that may or may not have been invented yet, depending on the
decade in the 1800s. Better tool steels for both cutting tools and
drawing dies, for sure. From the 1880s on, it was probably possible to
make such an item, although electric arc welding was in its infancy.
Smokeless powder was around then, too. Custer probably couldn't have
had them, the Boers probably could have.
Stan
George
# Just remember the AR is a gas operated firearm and all that fouling will
#
The 9mm should be recoil operated.
George in LAs Vegas
BillM
"George" <gk...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:fqm3s6$272$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
# # Just remember the AR is a gas operated
# firearm and all that fouling will
# # be going into the long skinny gas tube.
# #
# The 9mm should be recoil operated.
Correct. 16" American Spirit Arms upper,
straight blowback operation. It will get
mucked up from shooting BP, but should still be
easier to clean than a BP revolver.
Bill