FAST or SLOW burning powder for .44 mag in a lever action rifle (Expert Advice Needed).
Will
Which type of powder is best used for a .44 mag when using a 20 inch
barrel like that found on a Puma 92 lever gun? And just importantly
why? This will make for a stimulating conversation!
Thanks a million!
Will
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Charles Winters
about .44 mag loads. I have a similar rifle, a Marlin M1894. The twist
rate in these rifles is relatively slow, approx 1 in 40 inches. This means
short 240 grainers do best, accuracy-wise.
My rifle delivers mediocre accuracy with light CAS loads, 240 gr cast over
6.0 gr WST. It really begins to shine with heavier loads, in my case 240 gr
gas check or jacketed over 15.0 gr of Bluedot with mag primers. This
delivers approx 1500 fps from my 18.5 inch barrel and prints approx 1"
groups at 50 yds.
I consider 296 and H110 to be best for heavier 300 grain bullets and too
slow for best combustion with the 240 grainers. WST is a fast powder,
Bluedot is medium to slow and 296 is about the slowest powder normally used
in pistol cartridges. The length of the barrel seems not to matter that
much in this regard. Hope that helps. - CW
FBC3
296 powder in a 16" rifle barrel.
Hoosierhoser
about it and think that powder choice above and beyond the normal
recommendations for the cartridge is debateable. It isn't. Use the types of
powder that are recommended in the available powder reloading guides. If you
want lower velocity loads, the faster powders can be used, as well as lighter
charges of some of the slower powders. If you want higher velocity loads, you
will have to use the slower burning powders. I experimented once with AA2200
powder, which is a relatively fast rifle powder, and the 44 mag cartridge for a
single shot pistol with a 14" barrel. With light or heavy loads and light or
heavy bullets, the results were always the same, VERY incomplete powder burn
and reduced velocities compared to similar loadings using the proper powders
for the 44 mag. A heavy crimp will not help either, because I experimented
with that too. The people at Freedom Arms used to work up heavy loads for the
454 Casull in the early days, using different proportions of various powders in
different burning ranges, but that seems a little extreme to me. But then you
may think differently and have the time to fool with it.
The longer barrel of a rifle doesn't significantly change the performance of a
relatively low pressure, straight-walled cartridge like 44 magnum. I don't
consider a 10% increase in velocity worth worrying about, but maybe you think
differently. The same money spent on a real rifle will net real rifle
performance, but that is another matter altogether. I'm not an expert, but I
have some practical experience with the 44 mag cartridge, like about 25,000
rounds downrange.
If you haven't bought the rifle yet, I can maybe save you some money. No
matter what the gun rag editors spout, having a rifle and pistol utilizing the
same cartridge sounds great on paper, but loses out in real life. It is rare
that the pistol and rifle will be optimized with the same load, let alone
bullet type and weight, so you will have to carry different ammo for each gun
anyways. I've been down that road. That is especially true for the reloaders
who like to push the margin and will load 'heavier' rounds for the rifle to get
the most out of it, full knowing those loads are well over the practical limits
for their handguns. Alternatively, you will carry one handload which is a
compromise for both guns.
As I said earlier, you can spend the same money on a real rifle chambered for a
real rifle cartridge and get real rifle performance. Even out of a rifle
barrel, the 44 magnum is still just a pistol cartridge that is outperformed by
the relatively low power 30/30 round. Good Luck.
AlanB
# Experts,
#
# Which type of powder is best used for a .44 mag when using a 20 inch
# barrel like that found on a Puma 92 lever gun? And just importantly
# why? This will make for a stimulating conversation!
#
# Thanks a million!
#
# Will
# For maximum pain in a 44 use one of 5 or so powders.
Winchester 296
H 110 or "Little Gun" from Hodgdon and H4227
These will put you in the lower range of the 45-70 power range as you can
get a 300 Grain bullet up to 1400 + FPS.
A lot of recoil for a light rifle I know I've done this.
A
Will
Where I'm coming from is I want a light and handy brush gun. Plus, I
want the ammo cheap. Better yet I want it all to be given to me at no
charge with sugar sprinkled on top (hehe).
Back to earth...what I need is a...
1.) "<= 6" pound gun capable of downing whitetail @ 100yds.
2.) cheap, plentiful ammo
3.) lost cost rifle
4.) fun to shoot
Will
Frank Johnson
I must respectfully say "THPPPPP!" to your post. I don't take it as a
flame,nor am I offended as a .44 fan, but my experience with the .44
pistol/rifle combo has been exactly the opposite.
First, adding the Marlin 1894 .44 lever action as a hunting complement
to my Ruger SBH has been nothing but positive. I've found 3 different
loads that both guns shoot well, one of those being a .44 special
target load. Currently, I am using the plain jane standard 240 soft
point over 24.0gr H110 for both guns, and both guns have dropped game
in their tracks without a single step at ranges of 5yds to 70yds. I
also have a hardcast load that is incredibly accurate in both my
pistol and my rifle, and I've taken a deer with it using my pistol.
Second, the rifle does add significant improved performance,
definitely more than 10%. Out of my particular guns, I gain over
200fps with my 20" Marlin over my 7.5" SBH (closer to 20%). Anyone
carrying a 4" or 5" revolver along with a 20" rifle would get a
velocity improvement of more like 300fps, and that equates to about
35-40% more velocity and an additional 800-900ft-lbs energy. I've
used bullet weights of 180, 240, 265, 270, and 300 on game in the
.44mag, and the added velocity from the rifle does provide close range
pistol performance (expansion AND complete penetration) at longer
ranges (50+yds).
Third, for the comparatively close range that is used for .44mag
hunting, fully optimized loads are not required. Who cares about
tweaking a load to reduce a 2.5" rifle group down to 1.5" at 100yds,
when my iron-sighted pistol shoots the same load to 3" at 50yds?
Regardless of accuracy optimization, anything in North America is
gonna drop pretty quick with a Speer 270 Gold Dot, 300 UniCor, or
hardcast load at those ranges.
#From a practical standpoint, the .44 mag rifle allows a hunter to
accurately hit and reliably drop game at double the range offered by a
pistol. I suppose if someone wanted to scope their .44 pistol they
wouldn't need the rifle, since accuracy would be greatly improved at
50-100yds....but for the cost of rings, mounts, and a 2x Leupold, you
can buy the Marlin.
I suppose it comes down to personal preference, but I always take my
pistol AND rifle when I go hunting. I hunt for as long as practical
with the pistol, and if I'm seeing game beyond my reliable range, I
cheat and use my rifle. I don't load any differently for the rifle
than I do for the pistol, and I enjoy taking game or target shooting
with both. Having a rifle in the same caliber as a pistol is much
fun, very practical, and I highly recommend it.
FBC3
#by
#the relatively low power 30/30
When these two rounds are compared, it always reminds me of a day shooting many
years ago on a friend's farm. He had a 30-30, I carried my Ruger .44 carbine,
both using jacketed factory softpoints. We came across a rusting, long
abandoned huge cast iron kettle, nearly an inch thick near the base. Being
young and foolish, we fired at the base of the kettle from just a few feet
away. The 30-30 made an impressive dimple that bulged the thick metal. Then
the .44 punched a hole through one side, an even larger hole in the opposite
side, and buried itself in the ground. Although downrange ballistics suffer,
big bullets can really perform at close range.
Frank Johnson
Will,
Email me direct, and I will give you the contact info for the guy that
I bought my Marlin 1894 .44 mag (20") from. Brand new in the box for
$299.
Jim Richardson
Will <stuart...@synovusmortgage.com> wrote:
# Hoosier,
#
# Where I'm coming from is I want a light and handy brush gun. Plus, I
# want the ammo cheap. Better yet I want it all to be given to me at no
# charge with sugar sprinkled on top (hehe).
#
# Back to earth...what I need is a...
# 1.) "<= 6" pound gun capable of downing whitetail @ 100yds.
# 2.) cheap, plentiful ammo
# 3.) lost cost rifle
#
# Will
#
Synthetic stocked Handi-rifle in either 30-30, 44Mag or 357Mag. The last
may be marginal on deer at 100 yds, your call, the other two are no
problem. Rifle is about $180, sturdy, single shot, accurate, fun to
shoot, although outside your weight limit, at 7lbs. however, any caliber
that is good on whitetail at 100yds, in a 6lb rifle, is going to have a
rather bit higer recoil than many like for long shooting sessions. 30-30
out of a 7lb rifle, has about 11lbs of recoil impulse, 13 out of a 6lb.
(rough calc, verious loads will vary) Compare that to M2 ball out of an
03, of around 11.
Alternatively, there's the SKS, ammo is cheap, if you are careful on
what you buy, you can get an accurate one (well, accurate enough for
this job) The 7.62x39 is a little lighter in power than the 30-30, and
the gas operation will limit the recoil even more. Again, the rifle is
a bit over your weight limit, but it's close, and can be had for well
under $180. Hunting ammo is a little harder to find, but it's out there,
and of course, you can handload. Stock sights tend to be a bit,
primitive, but there are a whole host of aftermarket suppliers for
them. Worth a look, and you won't get ammo cheaper than wolf 7.62x39 in
any caliber you'd care to hunt whitetail with. (plinking ammo that is, I
wouldn't advocate using it for hunting.)
Another option, although up in price, is the Lever action rifles from
Marlin and Winchester, same calibers as listed above for the Handi
rifle, same caveats re: recoil. I really like my Marlin 1894 in 44Mag,
and my wife likes her 357 version. Neither one is particularly cheap to
feed however, at least if you are buying factory ammo. Although hers
handles 38spcl loads and recoils about like a rimfire :) Expect to pay
just under $300 for one of these. I'd get the 357 for cheaper plinking,
and make damn sure of my shot in hunting, but then, you should do that
no matter what the cartridge. 357 out of a rifle, with a good stout
load, and a JSP or FP round, is plenty for whitetail IMHO, but then, to
be honest, I haven't hunted more than a few with that load, and I've
never taken a shot >~50yds on whitetail with them. But then, I tend to
like to get in close no matter what the load. Why I remember a trip
back in 91...
I suppose you could also go for a Handi rifle in 308, surplus 308 is
cheap, and it's certainly an excellent caliber for hunting medium size
game and up. but the recoil in a 6lb rifle is going to be rather,
attention grabbing.
--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
A bad day, is when aliens attack, the dog bites you, and your boss tells
you that the new client wants to make a few changes before delivery.
Linux, super computers, office computers, or home computers, it works.
marty405
my local pusher got me into a marlin 45colt lever gun(with same
caliber ruger s/a for cowboy action shooting) but I had the same
ideas and found to be true what Charles and Alan said, rate of twist
and bullet weight determine the pwder to use. It is amazing that you
can get 45-70 performance from these guns provided they are modern day
guns that will handle the pressures. I have messed around and found a
couple loads that will perform well in both the rifle and the pistol
for plate shooting and plinking.
Marty
Jim Richardson
Frank Johnson <mjoh...@ieainc.com> wrote:
# # 3.) lost cost rifle
#
# Will,
#
# Email me direct, and I will give you the contact info for the guy that
# I bought my Marlin 1894 .44 mag (20") from. Brand new in the box for
# $299.
#
Or just go to Big 5 where that's the normal price, you can wait for a
sale, they go for $280 or so then. Come to think of it, that's about
what I paid for mine used, 15+ years ago.. <sigh>
--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
A bad day, is when aliens attack, the dog bites you, and your boss tells
you that the new client wants to make a few changes before delivery.
Linux, super computers, office computers, or home computers, it works.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Oberlander
# Hoosier,
#
# Where I'm coming from is I want a light and handy brush gun. Plus, I
# want the ammo cheap. Better yet I want it all to be given to me at no
# charge with sugar sprinkled on top (hehe).
#
# Back to earth...what I need is a...
# 1.) "<= 6" pound gun capable of downing whitetail @ 100yds.
# 2.) cheap, plentiful ammo
Get a nice 30-30 lever action. It's all you'll need - plus
more powerful as well as no more expensive than .44 mag.
You can get it "improved" if you want a bit more power,
much like how the K-Hornet is compared to a normal Hornet
and still use factory ammo if need be. As for the gun,
$600 is way more than one goes for. If you want the
best of both worlds AND the ability to handload to 50K
PSI, get a NEF single-shot or an old Savage bolt-action
30-30. I'd recommend the Savage, though, as it is
inexpensive and still has a 5 round magazine, as well as
uses a normal scope mount/rings.
I wrote to NEF and they said their 30-30 single-shot rifle
was tested to 60K PSI maximum, like all of their rifles, so
one can only imagine what velocities you could get out of
a 30-30 case.
Will
Know what really sucks? Is when I try to justify buying any gun when
the shotgun I already own matches the criteria I have mentioned above.
Maverick 88 with 18" barrel (it was a 28" ribbed that I cut down for
portability sake).
It shoots slugs with amazing accuracy and is rather light after having
removed material from the buttstock. I mounted a "Scout" scope to the
rib (2.75 power) and shoots a four inch group at 100yds. I know that
isn't rifle accuracy, but I only paid $150 out the door. Scope got
for $80. Slugs can be had for $0.50 each too. While the cheapest .44
ammo I've found local is $0.80 each and the .30-30 ammo is around the
same. The slugs are pretty amazing at stopping deer, but so are
.30-30's.
Wish someone around here carried CCI/Blazer .44 mag. That stuff goes
for around $0.32 a round. That would push me over the edge in buying
the Puma 92 in .44. Those rifles are sooooo beautiful!
Will
Pankoski
limits the choices alot. I would have said a typical WWII surplus bolt
rifle but all of them are heavy unless you modify them (sporterize). Lee
Enfields go for $150 +/- and the ammo is all over the place, but you have to
spend a couple of hours removing all that excess wood to make the gun weigh
about 7-8 lbs. Ditto for Mausers.
The SKS is pretty cheap as is the ammo. NEF single shot Handi-Rifle????
Good Luck.
"Will" <stuart...@synovusmortgage.com> wrote in message
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