Berry's 148gr HBWC (Copper Plated Bullets) in a .357 mag case

[Josh A. Grossman]

Back in July or August I bought a bunch of 148gr HBWC=92s to use in a
2700 match.
Using small amounts of Bullseye powder, I could never get them to
shoot accurately.
I abandoned their use for that match, but they are still sitting on my
reloading bench.
I would like to load them up in .357 cases and just use them for
practice or plinking in my
S&W 686.

Does anyone out there in Rec.Guns land have an accurate load using
Berry's Plated 148gr HBWC, a .357 case, Remington or
Winchester standard small primer, and Bullseye, Unique, Winchester WSF
or Winchester 296, powder?

Many thanks in advance,
JAG

[MODERATOR: Josh, what was the load you tried that didn't work
out for you?]

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[Gerald "Brick" Brickwood]

I don't get it. A charge of 2.8 grains of Bullseye for a 148 gr. HBWC is
darn near as classic a load as you'll find for the Center-fire Conventional
Pistol competitor. Plated bullets should be very close to the same loads as
cast. What were you using as a powder charge?

Hollow base wadcutters need to be on the light side. Too much obturation of
the skirt can cause leading of your bore. Solid base or Double Ended
wadcutters can be pushed up to "normal" lead bullet velocities.

[Josh A. Grossman]

I got up to 4.4gr of Bullseye over a Remington Standard Small Pistol
Primer...

I found this Web page... http://stevespages.com/page8.htm
and I am going to try some Unique loads...

Thanks,
JAG

[Gunner Asch]

On Fri, 2 Dec 2011 22:32:48 +0000 (UTC), "Gerald \"Brick\" Brickwood"
<bri...@frontiernet.net> wrote:

#
#
#I don't get it. A charge of 2.8 grains of Bullseye for a 148 gr. HBWC is
#darn near as classic a load as you'll find for the Center-fire Conventional
#Pistol competitor. Plated bullets should be very close to the same loads as
#cast. What were you using as a powder charge?
#
#Hollow base wadcutters need to be on the light side. Too much obturation of
#the skirt can cause leading of your bore. Solid base or Double Ended
#wadcutters can be pushed up to "normal" lead bullet velocities.

and when you turn the HP bullets around and use em in the Headboard
pistol..you are limited to about 700fps else they do wierd and strange
things..including according to some reports..ring the barrel.

I keep mine to about 650 FPS and testing on live game such as coyotes
has shown them to be particularily effective with expansion to about the
size of a nickle at the smallest and penetration to about 10" in solid
tissue.

Pretty nice self defense round at ranges up to about 20 yrds.

[Gerald "Brick" Brickwood]

I think you are pushing them too hard!

2.8 to 3.1 grains of Bullseye should be just fine for 148 gr. Hollow Base
Wadcutter bullets. I thought you were developing loads for Bullseye
competition? I don't even find Unique listed as a choice in my references
for target loads with HBWC bullets. If you want full power loads use a
different bullet! I would suggest a 158 gr. lead semi-wadcutter hollow
point pushed at .357 magnum velocities would be very good for serious social
carry and up to medium game close range hunting or varmints.

[sta...@prolynx.com]

On Dec 2, 3:32=A0pm, "Josh A. Grossman" <jagrossm...@gmail.com> wrote:
# I got up to 4.4gr of Bullseye over a Remington Standard Small Pistol
# Primer...
#
# I found this Web page...http://stevespages.com/page8.htm
# and I am going to try some Unique loads...
#
# Thanks,
# JAG
#

As the other posters have said, too heavy a load will do odd things,
like blow the skirts out (or off). Accuracy will definitely suck
then. Stick to less than 3 gr. of Bullseye and that won't happen.
296 is no good for these. Use a fast-burning powder and light loads,
keep the speed down to 750 or so. .38 Special loads can be dumped
into .357 cases with no ill effects, velocity might be slightly
reduced. That's been sort of implied in the loading manuals but not
outright stated, the Magnum loads have no lighter ones included in the
recipes. Think air rifle pellets for these loads and you won't be far
off.

I've not used plated wadcutters, the bulk LHBWC Remington ones you can
get from Midway work well and are about as cheap as you can get in a
pistol bullet. I use them in the Smith 52. Work well in all my .38s
and .357s. A good short-range game load, too.

Stan

[Ralph Mowery]

"Josh A. Grossman" <jagro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jbbjmh$mgu$1...@news.albasani.net...
#
# I got up to 4.4gr of Bullseye over a Remington Standard Small Pistol
# Primer...
#
# I found this Web page... http://stevespages.com/page8.htm
# and I am going to try some Unique loads...
#
#

As others have said, the hbwc is made for 25 yard and under paper targets.
They are not very accurate at much over 25 yards. Very light loads of fast
powder should be used. Around 2.7 to 3 Gr of Bullseys or some other fast
burning powder. Just enough to blow the hollow base out to the rifling is
all that is needed. Go much lighter and they will not form to the rifling
and may get stuck in the barrel.
I do not shoot competition, but did a quick search for that 2700 match.
Seems that some of the targets are at 50 yards, too far for the hbwc.

Years ago some turned them around and made them into a big hollow point.
Now there are much beter bullets for shooting people and animals.

[Gunner Asch]

On Sat, 3 Dec 2011 22:01:03 +0000 (UTC), "Gerald \"Brick\" Brickwood"
<bri...@frontiernet.net> wrote:

#
#
#I think you are pushing them too hard!
#
#2.8 to 3.1 grains of Bullseye should be just fine for 148 gr. Hollow Base
#Wadcutter bullets. I thought you were developing loads for Bullseye
#competition? I don't even find Unique listed as a choice in my references
#for target loads with HBWC bullets. If you want full power loads use a
#different bullet! I would suggest a 158 gr. lead semi-wadcutter hollow
#point pushed at .357 magnum velocities would be very good for serious social
#carry and up to medium game close range hunting or varmints.

Most..not all..but MOST of the old bullseye shooters I shot with over
the years, used 2.7gr of Bullseye for their popgun loads

Gunner

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011 01:23:33 +0000 (UTC), "Ralph Mowery"
<rmower...@earthlink.net> wrote:

#
#Years ago some turned them around and made them into a big hollow point.
#Now there are much beter bullets for shooting people and animals.

Yes there are..but few of the better loads work at low velocity, which
in some cases may be a requirement..building construction, shooters
frailty and so forth.

There is a place still for the backwards HB..but it is fairly specific.

Gunner

[Bob Holtzman]

On 2011-12-04, Ralph Mowery <rmower...@earthlink.net> wrote:

........snip........

# I do not shoot competition, but did a quick search for that 2700 match.
# Seems that some of the targets are at 50 yards, too far for the hbwc.

Not sure where you get that. Years ago, before people started migrating
to the .45 for both the Center Fire *and* .45 portions of the 2700
match, the 148 hbwc was used at 25 *and* 50 yd Center Fire matches. From
what I hear, some people still do.


--
Bob Holtzman

[Gerald "Brick" Brickwood]

Yup! That is listed as the starting load for .38 Special HBWC to be used in
semi-auto target pistols
(Such as the S&W Model 52 or the Colt National Match .38 Special) in my
older references.

[Josh A. Grossman]

I worked my way up to 4.4 gr from 3.0 gr - never got good results at
25 yards, so I never tried them at 50.
I can try them again with 2.7 gr of bullseye...
I may even give up on the whole .357 mag case, and just load them in .
38 spcl cases and just shoot them out of my S&W 442 at 20 ft...

JAG

[MODERATOR: Umm, to be clear, I don't know that you'd want to
presume that a recipe tailored for .38 special cases would
automatically be appropriate or safe for the .357 case. This
may be true on slightly warmer loads with some powders, but
I'd specifically *not* try 2.7gr of Bullseye in the .357 mag
case, at least until I saw some report of it testing okay.
That pinch of powder is slight even for a .38, so it would
make for an even emptier case in the cavernous .357 load. It
thus has its own safety issues in terms of detonation.]

[Gerald "Brick" Brickwood]

I hate to say but you're confusing the devil out me.

If your purpose is a mid-range wadcutter load for NRA Conventional Pistol
competition, the 148 grain Hollow Base Wadcutter bullet is a viable choice.
It is one widely used by bullseye shooters and has a history of use going
back many years. These loads are loaded to be mild: 1) to prevent
deformation of the bullet by "over-expansion" causing un-due leading of the
gun and poor accuracy and 2) to allow easy recoil recovery for the sustained
fire (timed and rapid fire) stages of the match.

Typically this is a .38 Special load, but it should work very well in a
revolver chambered for .357 Magnum. Loaded in either .38 Special or .357
Magnum cases. A Model 686 revolver should have no problem handling the
load. There are some (as Magnum alludes) who are concerned about
"flash-over" or odd pressure responses when a primer flash fires "over" a
light powder charge rather than "into" it. If that is a concern, Dacron
pillow stuffing or Kapok (available at craft or sewing notion stores) can be
used as a filler in the cases to hold the powder against the primer. There
is also a commercial product named "Pufflon" for the same purpose. See:
http://www.pufflon.com/

Even though I'm not a world beater, I've used HBWC bullets in .38 Special
revolver for both NRA Conventional Pistol and Police Pistol Combat matches
at 50 yards and 25 yards. With good results.

But, if your purpose is to develop a general plinking or light game load for
..357 magnum. Choose another bullet! The 148 gr. double ended wadcutter
(dewc) can be pushed along at 1000 fps or slightly more without causing too
much leading. The broad meplat on this bullet does a fair amount of damage
on thin-skinned game and adds a bit of "smack" for use against things like
bowling pins and steel plates. Refer to standard reloading manuals for
recommended loads.

[Bob Holtzman]

On 2011-12-05, Gerald "Brick" Brickwood <bri...@frontiernet.net> wrote:

........snip.......
#
# But, if your purpose is to develop a general plinking or light game load for
# ..357 magnum. Choose another bullet! The 148 gr. double ended wadcutter
# (dewc) can be pushed along at 1000 fps or slightly more without causing too
# much leading.

One caution. If you're going to push anywhere near that velocity, stay away
from the commercial swaged wadcutters. They will lead like crazy. I
speak from personal experience. They are great around 700 fps. Also, the
commercial cast wadcutters are usually to hard and don't obdurate well.
I used to have to cast my own to get the right hardness.

Once I pushed a Hornady HBWC to 800-900 and after 10 rounds I literally
couldn't see the rifling. Tried everything I could think of to clean it
to no avail. Finally had to resort to mercury. Did a great job but I
wouldn't want to use it often.

--
Bob Holtzman

[Josh A. Grossman]

I think my point got lost somewhere...
I was going to use these bullets for a 2700, but didn't.
Now I just want them for plinking...

I have decided to abandon the use of .357 cases and just load them up
in .38 spcl cases with 2.7 gr of bullseye.

They were a poor choice of bullet for the purpose I had in mind - I
probably should have never purchased them.

Live and learn...

JAG

[haraoi_conal]

On Dec 5, 6:25=A0pm, Bob Holtzman <hol...@cox.net> wrote:

#
# Once I pushed a Hornady HBWC to 800-900 and after 10 rounds I literally
# couldn't see the rifling. Tried everything I could think of to clean it

# to no avail. Finally had to resort to mercury. Did a great job but I
# wouldn't want to use it often.
#
# --
# Bob Holtzman

Dad bought one of these eons ago:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=3D21587/Product/LEWIS-LEAD-REMOVER

It will pull chunks of lead out of a revolver barrel that you would
swear was clean as a whistle.

It uses a wire screen patch over a rubber plug for a tight fit. One
pull through a clean barrel and you will be amazed at what comes out.

[Bob Holtzman]

# Dad bought one of these eons ago:

# http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=3D21587/Product/LEWIS-LEAD-REMOVER
#
# It will pull chunks of lead out of a revolver barrel that you would
# swear was clean as a whistle.
#
# It uses a wire screen patch over a rubber plug for a tight fit. One
# pull through a clean barrel and you will be amazed at what comes out.

Had that in .38 and .45 sizes. They worked great...except in this
instance. It couldn't get enough lead out to uncover the rifling. Still

had to resort to mercury.

--
Bob Holtzman