? Reloading 7.62x25 and 9mm
zxcvbob
handgun. It should get here in a few days, then I'm planning on buying
an FM Hi-Power 9mm, and a CZ-52 (7.62x25). Eventually I also want to
get a .45 revolver, but that can hopefully wait a while. One doesn't
need to buy too many toys at once. :-)
While I'm twiddling my thumbs waiting for the permit, I've been
reseaching loading presses and dies.
Is a "Lee Anniversary Kit" a good way to start reloading pistol ammo, or
is there another single-stage press that would be better for a starter?
Does anyone make a good die set (preferably carbide) for the 7.62x25,
or do you have to use a .30 mauser die and just hope for the best? I've
read that the Lee 7.52x25 dies will not work for forming the brass.
Will everybody's press take everybody else's dies? I've seen some
oddball presses on eBay...
I'll start with reloading the 9mm, even tho 9mm cartridges are cheap and
plentiful, just for the practice before I start trying to do bottleneck
7.62's.
Do heavy .38 special lead bullets (especially the 158 grain "FBI"
SWCHP's) work OK in a 9mm, or are they too long, forcing you to press
too far into the case and generating overly high pressures?
That's enough questions for now (probably too many in one message.)
Thanks, and best regards,
Bob
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Clark Magnuson
bullets in 380, 9mm, 9x23mm, 38sp, and 357 mag.
I no longer shoot them in 38 S&W because of bullet friction pulling on
the latch top.
To safely shoot a large diameter high shouldered bullet in a 380 or
9mm. The OAL [over all length] of the cartridge must be:
1) short enough to feed from the magazine, usually 1.169" for 9mm
2) I take the barrel out of the pistol and drop the cartridge in the
chamber. The OAL must be short enough for the bullet to fit in the
throat, checked by verifying the bullet will drop into the chamber all
the way, and come back out easily with finger nails pulling.
The 7.62x25mm [or 30 Mauser] cartridge is a bottle neck, and so a
carbide die would be prohibitively expensive [they don't make them].
That means you will need to lubricate the case to resize it.
The 7.62x25mm loads now in the Sierra, Hornady, Accurate Arms, Lee, and
Lyman load books are all low pressure [25 to 35kspi], even if the notes
say, "high pressure for the CZ52 only". Those notes in the load books
are erroneous, as the CZ52 is weaker than the Tokarev and probably
weaker than the 1896 Mauser Broom handle. Surplus Tokarev ammo and S&B
modern ammo, on the other hand, is high pressure [42 kcup ~ 46kpsi].
These will not automatically blow up a CZ52, but the margin of safety
is probably not up to the 1.3X to 1.4X SAAMI proof load procedure, due
to the weak spot in the bottom of the chamber.
I personally shoot 10gr Power Pistol, S&B brass, 110gr, 1.136" in a
7.62x25mm Tokarev, which WOULD automatically blow up a CZ52.
--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.
zxcvbob
# I shoot 158 gr. .357" XTP and 158 gr. .358" LSWC [lead semi wad cutter]
# bullets in 380, 9mm, 9x23mm, 38sp, and 357 mag.
# I no longer shoot them in 38 S&W because of bullet friction pulling on
# the latch top.
# To safely shoot a large diameter high shouldered bullet in a 380 or
# 9mm. The OAL [over all length] of the cartridge must be:
# 1) short enough to feed from the magazine, usually 1.169" for 9mm
# 2) I take the barrel out of the pistol and drop the cartridge in the
# chamber. The OAL must be short enough for the bullet to fit in the
# throat, checked by verifying the bullet will drop into the chamber all
# the way, and come back out easily with finger nails pulling.
#
# The 7.62x25mm [or 30 Mauser] cartridge is a bottle neck, and so a
# carbide die would be prohibitively expensive [they don't make them].
# That means you will need to lubricate the case to resize it.
#
# The 7.62x25mm loads now in the Sierra, Hornady, Accurate Arms, Lee, and
# Lyman load books are all low pressure [25 to 35kspi], even if the notes
# say, "high pressure for the CZ52 only". Those notes in the load books
# are erroneous, as the CZ52 is weaker than the Tokarev and probably
# weaker than the 1896 Mauser Broom handle. Surplus Tokarev ammo and S&B
# modern ammo, on the other hand, is high pressure [42 kcup ~ 46kpsi].
# These will not automatically blow up a CZ52, but the margin of safety
# is probably not up to the 1.3X to 1.4X SAAMI proof load procedure, due
# to the weak spot in the bottom of the chamber.
# I personally shoot 10gr Power Pistol, S&B brass, 110gr, 1.136" in a
# 7.62x25mm Tokarev, which WOULD automatically blow up a CZ52.
#
Thanks for the warning. I'll just shoot S&B factory loads in the CZ52
until I get some practice reloading 9mm and/or 45LC, then I'll try to
keep the 7.62x25 pressure below 45 kpsi.
I'm not sure I totally believe that a CZ52 has a weaker chamber than a
.30 mauser, but I don't want to find out the hard way.
I got my permit today. Gonna go shopping Monday (wish I had time this
afternoon :-)
Best regards,
Bob
Listed...@attbi.com
#
#Is a "Lee Anniversary Kit" a good way to start reloading pistol ammo, or
#is there another single-stage press that would be better for a starter?
# Does anyone make a good die set (preferably carbide) for the 7.62x25,
#or do you have to use a .30 mauser die and just hope for the best? I've
#read that the Lee 7.52x25 dies will not work for forming the brass.
#
#
#I'll start with reloading the 9mm, even tho 9mm cartridges are cheap and
#plentiful, just for the practice before I start trying to do bottleneck
#7.62's.
#
#Do heavy .38 special lead bullets (especially the 158 grain "FBI"
#SWCHP's) work OK in a 9mm, or are they too long, forcing you to press
#too far into the case and generating overly high pressures?
#
Ok. You're kinda scaring me here. I'll start least and work my way
up...
Lee Anniversary Kit is a wonderfully cost effective way to begin.
Best bang for the $$. If you plan on doing alot of reforming of brass
or such, I would switch to a RCBS Rockchucker or Lee Classic Cast
press for the extra leverage, strength and stability.
Lee and RCBS presently both make die sets in 7.62x25. You generally
won't find carbide dies for bottleneck cartridges...some type of
manufacturing difficulty I believe.
You can buy 7.62x25 brass from Starline suppliers or optionally buy a
bulk load of reloadable surplus ammo and collecting the casings.
..38Spl 158g generally won't work in 9mm casings. 9mm uses a smaller
and lighter bullet. If you squeeze one in there, the best you can
hope for is feeding malfunctions...the worst would be keeping your
hand after the oversized and overpressured round blows the gun up.
Now technically it would be possible if you sized the bullets and were
careful about your charges, but it really is something that should be
left to more experienced reloaders...if even they saw the need to
experiment like this.
No need to do this anyhow, since 9mm LRN's are plentiful and generally
cheaper than .38Spl LSWC. For a few $$ more, using plated 9mm bullets
works well too, nevermind the wide assortment of jacketed bullets in a
multitude of weights and designs.
Your biggest issue is going to be finding a cheap supply of Tokarev
bullets unless you cast yourself or know someone who does.
And yes, most modern dies and presses are universal in thread sizing.
There are a few older models that aren't and some specialized ones for
larger cartridges.
zxcvbob
# On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 23:20:22 +0000 (UTC), zxcvbob
# #
# #Is a "Lee Anniversary Kit" a good way to start reloading pistol ammo, or
# #is there another single-stage press that would be better for a starter?
# # Does anyone make a good die set (preferably carbide) for the 7.62x25,
# #or do you have to use a .30 mauser die and just hope for the best? I've
# #read that the Lee 7.52x25 dies will not work for forming the brass.
# #
# #
# #I'll start with reloading the 9mm, even tho 9mm cartridges are cheap and
# #plentiful, just for the practice before I start trying to do bottleneck
# #7.62's.
# #
# #Do heavy .38 special lead bullets (especially the 158 grain "FBI"
# #SWCHP's) work OK in a 9mm, or are they too long, forcing you to press
# #too far into the case and generating overly high pressures?
# #
#
#
# Ok. You're kinda scaring me here. I'll start least and work my way
# up...
#
# Lee Anniversary Kit is a wonderfully cost effective way to begin.
# Best bang for the $$. If you plan on doing alot of reforming of brass
# or such, I would switch to a RCBS Rockchucker or Lee Classic Cast
# press for the extra leverage, strength and stability.
#
# Lee and RCBS presently both make die sets in 7.62x25. You generally
# won't find carbide dies for bottleneck cartridges...some type of
# manufacturing difficulty I believe.
#
# You can buy 7.62x25 brass from Starline suppliers or optionally buy a
# bulk load of reloadable surplus ammo and collecting the casings.
#
# ..38Spl 158g generally won't work in 9mm casings. 9mm uses a smaller
# and lighter bullet. If you squeeze one in there, the best you can
# hope for is feeding malfunctions...the worst would be keeping your
# hand after the oversized and overpressured round blows the gun up.
# Now technically it would be possible if you sized the bullets and were
# careful about your charges, but it really is something that should be
# left to more experienced reloaders...if even they saw the need to
# experiment like this.
#
# No need to do this anyhow, since 9mm LRN's are plentiful and generally
# cheaper than .38Spl LSWC. For a few $$ more, using plated 9mm bullets
# works well too, nevermind the wide assortment of jacketed bullets in a
# multitude of weights and designs.
#
# Your biggest issue is going to be finding a cheap supply of Tokarev
# bullets unless you cast yourself or know someone who does.
#
# And yes, most modern dies and presses are universal in thread sizing.
# There are a few older models that aren't and some specialized ones for
# larger cartridges.
#
# Th...@worldnet.att.net
#
I'm just letting my imagination run too far ahead while waiting for my
handgun permit. (It just came this morning.) Whenever I start a new
hobby, I try to absorb all the knowledge there is on the topic first.
Then it takes me a year or two to digest it.
But I will have to start reloading the 9mm sooner than I expected --
I've been told that all the stores around here only sell 9mm in FMJ, and
the shooting range does not allow FMJ. I can buy a case of LRN ammo
with reloadable brass at Cabela's when I go to buy my powder, primers, etc.
I'll probably start with plated lead 124 grain RN or FP .356 bullets
from Berrys Manufacturing. And I can buy those at Cabela's.
If I order direct from berrysmfg.com, there is a better selection of
.356 and .358 plated bullets, and several different .30 and .31 plated
bullets that might work in the Tokarev once I slug my barrel and see
which is the best size for my gun.
I have a friend who reloads who can loan me a set of 9mm dies and walk
me through the first batch. He already has a few thousand rounds of
9mm, and he's starting to load .45 Colt cuz that's his newest gun.
Thanks for your help,
Bob
Listed...@attbi.com
#
#But I will have to start reloading the 9mm sooner than I expected --
#I've been told that all the stores around here only sell 9mm in FMJ, and
#the shooting range does not allow FMJ. I can buy a case of LRN ammo
#with reloadable brass at Cabela's when I go to buy my powder, primers, etc.
#
#I'll probably start with plated lead 124 grain RN or FP .356 bullets
#from Berrys Manufacturing. And I can buy those at Cabela's.
#
Double check on what the range allows. Most indoor ranges now require
FMJ or plated to reduce the amount of airborne particulate lead.
The only No-FMJ ranges I've heard of use spinners and other reactive
targets that they wish to limit the damage to.
www.midwayusa.com is another good source for components including
Rainier plated bullets. Check around your local smaller shops for
component prices too. A smaller shop closer to me actually has the
best prices on primers, powders, and locally cast lead bullets than I
can get at Cabela's or Gander Mountain. The sporatic gun shows still
have better prices though.
When getting a new caliber, I usually put aside an extra $100 over the
cost of the weapon. This usually buys me a starter set of dies,
powder, primers, bullets, and cases. Enough to load 500+ handgun or
150+ rifle cartridges depending how much brass I have/buy/recycle.
Welcome to the hobby.
tylernt
not too much longer before that.
The Lee stuff is great for beginners. I have the cheapest 'C' style
press and the Lee dies, which work ok for 7.62x25. So far I've loaded
only JSP and FMJ bullets without cannelures, and I've made some rounds
into accordions trying to put a good crimp on them -- setback on a
high-pressure round like the 7.62x25 is not something I want to try.
I have had some trouble with bullets being seated slightly crooked (I
can only see it if I roll the round on a flat surface). This may be
human error though.
I started reloading for my revolver. Revolvers are nice because they
aren't as picky about variations in OAL/COL (OverAll Length/Cartridge
Overall Length) as autoloaders. Make sure to get a dial caliper (I got
the $20 Frankford Arsenal one from MidwayUSA, it's on sale now for
$17). You must make sure autoloader cartidges meet OAL specs so they
feed properly. You also need a caliper to test for setback: check the
OAL of a round and then chamber it in your gun by putting it in the
magazine and letting the slide slam closed under spring power. Pop out
your round and measure OAL again; OAL should still be within specs
(and even better, unchanged!).
Revolvers are also nice because you never lose a single fired case. I
shoot outside in the weeds, and I'm lucky if I find half of my 7.62x25
cases after they are flung 20-30 feet from my Tokarev. :(
I've found buying 7.62x25 brass is not economical if you can find S&B
ammo. New brass + bullet + powder + primer costs more than loaded S&B
ammo does. However, it is cheaper to save your S&B brass and reload it
than to keep buying factory. I've loaded 7.62x25 exclusively with
fired S&B brass with good results. The case walls are thick (which is
good) but the cheap little Lee press can still do a full-length resize
without much effort.
So far I've only used Unique powder in my 7.62x25 loads. 6 grains
behind an 85gr bullet is a real soft shooter that still ejects
reliably. The bulky Unique is good because a double-charge is real
obvious (filled almost to the mouth), but bad because you can't fit
enough powder in the case to get the velocity that the 7.62x25 is
capable of (and the muzzle blast/flash... wow!). I will have to try
some of Clark's Power Pistol loads (working my way up gently, of
course) as soon as I can find some more S&B ammo so I can get more
brass.
Enjoy your CZ-52... just remember that using the decocker CAN cause
your gun to fire!!
Clark Magnuson
Starline sells 7.62x25mm Tokarev brass for 13 cents/shot delivered.
The best S&B Tokarev ammo price I have found is at the gunshow for 15
cents/shot.
Someone who lived near the factory posted that S&B Tokarev ammo is
loaded with AA#2 powder.
I typically pull the bullets and load 110 gr. bullets with Power Pistol.
Both types of brass weight the same, but in an incremental load work up
S&B will go more than 1 gr. more powder before the primer falls out.
But that is with a Tokarev, as a CZ52 will split the chamber before
either pressure level can be reached.
The way I keep from loosing brass [which I need to inspect before
proceeding in an incremental load work up] at an indoor range, is I
wrap a towel around the pistol and my right hand. After the shot, I
unwrap the towel, and the fired case falls out.
--
A society that teaches evolution as fact will breed a generation of atheists that will destroy the society. It is Darwinian.