Colt M16A2 vs. Colt AR-15 Delta HBAR
John Larrigan
like to add a few more questions to your list.
Dose anybody have any comments about the Tasco scope that comes with the Delta
Hbar? Is it annother Tasco model with the addition of a rubber armour? If
so, which model, and can you get the scope with cross hairs other than duplex?
Dose the scope mount on the Delta Hbar allow for quick removal and replacement
scope without resighting?
Finnally, I think the difference between the Match Delta Hbar and the regular
Delta Hbar is that the Match model is set up for a scope only and does not
have sights and a carrying handle.
John L.
William Ferring | ferring@ms.uky.edu
Wow, lots o questions. I'll answer some of them.
First, the Delta is a true AR-15. It uses ONLY AR-15 parts inside and not M-16
parts (the BATF ruled in 1986 that an AR-15 with ANY M-16 parts can be seized
for inspection). The Delta is an A2 AR-15, therefore it has only the 1 in 7
twist configuration and has the A2 type muzzle compensator. The Delta also has
the double-screw type reciever pin.
As for obtaining a Class III in California, I have read that it will be next
to impossible unless you are a law enforcement agent.
I think the laws concernin "assault rifles" in California have effectively
banned the AR-15 in that state. I believe the deadline for registering them
in California was 12/31/90.
I would think you would have a hard time finding a new Delta Hbar for under
$1000 period!
Good luck. (I'm glad I live in Kentucky:)
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Emmanuel Baechler
# Dose anybody have any comments about the Tasco scope that comes with
# the Delta Hbar? Is it annother Tasco model with the addition of a
# rubber armour? If so, which model, and can you get the scope with
# cross hairs other than duplex?
Tasco scopes are cheap japanese products. They are acceptable for
leisure shooting at 50, or (at most) at 100 meters, in which case
you don't need a Delta Elite. In addition of low quality, these
scopes don't have a parallax correction which is required if you
want to use your rifle accurately over 100 meters (think of target
shooting, for example).
Scopes with parallax correction are less common and much more
expensive, but if you really want to use your rifle seriously
(for example, for target shooting over 100 meters) you need one.
Leupold has some good ones, and a lot of European compagnies too.
John Larrigan
## Dose anybody have any comments about the Tasco scope that comes with
## the Delta Hbar? Is it annother Tasco model with the addition of a
## rubber armour? If so, which model, and can you get the scope with
## cross hairs other than duplex?
# Tasco scopes are cheap japanese products. They are acceptable for
#leisure shooting at 50, or (at most) at 100 meters, in which case
#you don't need a Delta Elite. In addition of low quality, these
#scopes don't have a parallax correction which is required if you
#want to use your rifle accurately over 100 meters (think of target
#shooting, for example).
# Scopes with parallax correction are less common and much more
#expensive, but if you really want to use your rifle seriously
#(for example, for target shooting over 100 meters) you need one.
#Leupold has some good ones, and a lot of European compagnies too.
So what are my options when concidering purachasing a Delta hbar?
Can I get the rifle without the scope or buy another model with the
same degree of accuracy as the Delta without the scope? Would breaking
up the factory setup devalue the rifle in the eyes of collectors in distant
future?
finally, are there any other sporter rifles on the market that compare
with the Colt sporter in terms of accuracy and price. I've looked at the
Ruger mini 14 and 30 but I find the stock is to short for me to shoot
comfortably, and I would like somthing with a longer barrel. I am not
at all familiar with any of the European rifles. It seems hard to find
someone nearby that carries anything by the European manugactures.
John L.
Charles Grosjean
## Dose anybody have any comments about the Tasco scope that comes with
## the Delta Hbar? Is it annother Tasco model with the addition of a
## rubber armour? If so, which model, and can you get the scope with
## cross hairs other than duplex?
# Tasco scopes are cheap japanese products. They are acceptable for
#leisure shooting at 50, or (at most) at 100 meters, in which case
#you don't need a Delta Elite. In addition of low quality, these
#scopes don't have a parallax correction which is required if you
#want to use your rifle accurately over 100 meters (think of target
#shooting, for example).
# Scopes with parallax correction are less common and much more
#expensive, but if you really want to use your rifle seriously
#(for example, for target shooting over 100 meters) you need one.
#Leupold has some good ones, and a lot of European compagnies too.
Strange, Tasco makes a whole line of "target" scopes with parallax adjustable
objectives, 1/8 minute elevation/windage adjustments etc etc. True Tasco makes
a lot of low cost crappy stuff, but some of it is quite decent.
The armored scope that comes with the Delta (Elite? the 10mm pistol?) H-Bar
runs around $150 list, so you would probably be better off spending $200 to
$300 for a Leupold or Redfield
As far as the Delta/Non Delta question, you might want to look at one of the
lower receiver, lobotomized (no handle, just a scope mount) upper receiver
combos. Source for these are:
Smith & Alexander
Box 835790 Dept. AH
Richardson, TX 75083
(214)231-6084 [Upper Receiver Only for about $150]
Tank's
P.O. Box 474
Fremont, NE 68025
(402)727-1317 [All kinds of neat stuff, including AR-15's]
Insight Systems, Inc.
P.O. Box 3065 (6293 Highway 78)
Pueblo, CO 81005
Sniper barrel/upper receiver assemblies
The last two sell things that are a bit more pricey than your run of the mill
Sporter H-Bar.
Staff- Steve _ Bradley
#baec...@liasun6.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler) writes:
#
#So what are my options when concidering purachasing a Delta hbar?
#Can I get the rifle without the scope or buy another model with the
#same degree of accuracy as the Delta without the scope? Would breaking
#
#finally, are there any other sporter rifles on the market that compare
#with the Colt sporter in terms of accuracy and price. I've looked at the
#Ruger mini 14 and 30 but I find the stock is to short for me to shoot
#at all familiar with any of the European rifles. It seems hard to find
#someone nearby that carries anything by the European manugactures.
#
#John L.
Get an M1 Garand or an M1A. Get one that has been set up for real long
distance shooting. I'm not sure I would even want any .223 for anything
over 200yards for really accurate shooting but I am sure somebody will
differ with me. :-)
Steve
--
======================================================================
Steve Bradley Engineer
513-229-3171 sbra...@udecc.engr.udayton.edu
Univ. of Dayton, Engineering Computing Center-KL211, Dayton OH 45469
Emmanuel Baechler
# Scopes with parallax correction are less common and much more
#expensive, but if you really want to use your rifle seriously
#(for example, for target shooting over 100 meters) you need one.
#Leupold has some good ones, and a lot of European compagnies too.
#So what are my options when concidering purachasing a Delta hbar?
#Can I get the rifle without the scope or buy another model with the
#same degree of accuracy as the Delta without the scope? Would breaking
#up the factory setup devalue the rifle in the eyes of collectors in distant
#future?
The best would be to get a Delta Hbar without scope, but I don't know if
a such thing exist. Normally, a sope is mounted on a rifle through rings.
A good gunsmith should dismount the the original scope and replace it for
a moderate price. Of course, in order to keep the "collector's value of
your rifle, you should keep the original scope, so that you are able to
remount it if needed.
#finally, are there any other sporter rifles on the market that compare
#with the Colt sporter in terms of accuracy and price. I've looked at the
#Ruger mini 14 and 30 but I find the stock is to short for me to shoot
#comfortably, and I would like somthing with a longer barrel. I am not
#at all familiar with any of the European rifles. It seems hard to find
#someone nearby that carries anything by the European manugactures.
My Swiss Army Rifle is a very good target rifle. I put a Leupold VARI-XIII
with parallax correction and an varying magnification of 6.5-20. It works
very well. There are other good European semiautos: the Hecker&Kock MSG-90
and the PSG-1. The Dragunov is pretty good too. These rifles are however
much more expensive than a Delta Hbar.
Gary Coffman
#
# Scopes with parallax correction are less common and much more
#expensive, but if you really want to use your rifle seriously
#(for example, for target shooting over 100 meters) you need one.
#Leupold has some good ones, and a lot of European compagnies too.
I beg to differ. Parallax correction is valuable mostly for short
range shooting, under 100 meters. For long range shooting it is
of little consequence. If you look at a scope with parallax correction
adjustments, you'll note that the majority of the adjustment range
is under 50 meters and 98% of it is under 100 meters. Beyond that
you just shoot.
If you think about it, parallax refers to the difference in sight line
from the scope tube centerline to the bore centerline. As the range
increases this distance becomes a smaller percentage so less adjustment
is needed. Unless you need to shoot at extremely close ranges and at
100 meters or greater without resighting, scopes with parallax adjustments
are a waste of money. For serious target shooting, if you *touch* the
parallax adjustment, you must sight in again anyway so save your money
for better optics.
Gary
Chris Luchini
##finally, are there any other sporter rifles on the market that compare
##with the Colt sporter in terms of accuracy and price. I've looked at the
##Ruger mini 14 and 30 but I find the stock is to short for me to shoot
##comfortably, and I would like somthing with a longer barrel. I am not
##at all familiar with any of the European rifles. It seems hard to find
##someone nearby that carries anything by the European manugactures.
#
# My Swiss Army Rifle is a very good target rifle. I put a Leupold VARI-XIII
#with parallax correction and an varying magnification of 6.5-20. It works
#very well. There are other good European semiautos: the Hecker&Kock MSG-90
#and the PSG-1. The Dragunov is pretty good too. These rifles are however
#much more expensive than a Delta Hbar.
#
Could you tell us more about the MSG-90? I've never heard of it...
| Chris Luchini/1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505 |
| c...@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (best) |Cl...@fnald.bitnet (second chance) |
It's not a relationship, it's a friendship gone strange. -tc
*** I do not speak for the Illini Shooting Sports Club! ***
Thorick Chow
#leisure shooting at 50, or (at most) at 100 meters, in which case
I beg your pardon !! My Tasco Wider-View scope is a cheap TAIWAINESE
product !!
And as far as 'cheap' Japanese products goes.. Look at their
cars, motorcycles etc..
I think we're lucky that they don't have a big small arms industry,
else I'll bet that they'd run a lot of companies out of business
with better, cheaper guns..... (?)
-thorick
Emmanuel Baechler
|> In article <39...@mimsy.umd.edu> baec...@liasun6.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler) writes:
|> #
|> #expensive, but if you really want to use your rifle seriously
|> #(for example, for target shooting over 100 meters) you need one.
|> #Leupold has some good ones, and a lot of European compagnies too.
|>
|> I beg to differ. Parallax correction is valuable mostly for short
|> range shooting, under 100 meters. For long range shooting it is
|> of little consequence. If you look at a scope with parallax correction
|> adjustments, you'll note that the majority of the adjustment range
|> is under 50 meters and 98% of it is under 100 meters. Beyond that
|> you just shoot.
I disagree. For example my Leuplod scope has graduations for 100, 200 300
and 400 yards. If I remmber well, Parallax aberration is a non-paralellism
between two geometric plans (I don't remmber wich ones) and the problem
increases with the distance.
--
Emmanuel Baechler.
Laboratoire d'Intelligence Artificielle
Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne
MA-Ecublens
CH-1015 Lausanne Switzerland
Tel.: ++41-21-693-2732
e-mail: baec...@liasun6.epfl.ch
Standard Disclaimer
Stefan
..
#with parallax correction and an varying magnification of 6.5-20. It works
#very well. There are other good European semiautos: the Hecker&Kock MSG-90
#and the PSG-1. The Dragunov is pretty good too. These rifles are however
#much more expensive than a Delta Hbar.
What kind of rifle is you Swiss Army Rifle?
____________________________
May all your scores be 'X's!
_____________________________
Emmanuel Baechler
|> In article <39...@mimsy.umd.edu>, baec...@liasun6.epfl.ch (Emmanuel Baechler) writes:
|>
|> Could you tell us more about the MSG-90? I've never heard of it...
|>
|>
The HK MSG-90 and PSG-1 are snipers deveopped on the basis of the mechanism
of the HK G3. Both are semi-auto only. The MSG-90 is the "militarized" version
with a shorter barrel (60 centimeters), a bipod and a relatively classical
stock. Finally it is also relatively light (around 6 kilos). The MSG-1 was
intended for competion: it is much heavier (more than 9 kg) has a longer barrel
(70 centimeters), doesn't have a bipod, its scope is fixed and different from
the one of the MSG-90. It's stock is also much more sophisticated and can be
adjusted to the anatomic characteristics of its user. Even the pistol grip is
anatomic. In hoter words, it's the same mechanism with different "user
interface" for different purposes.
Christopher Morton
# distance shooting. I'm not sure I would even want any .223 for anything
# over 200yards for really accurate shooting but I am sure somebody will
# differ with me. :-)
I wouldn't necessarily choose an AR15 as my FIRST choice, but I have friends
who can hit the bull at 600yd.s. They'd have trouble in a high wind, but I've
seen people have trouble with M1As in a high wind too. Just not as much
trouble.
--
---------------------------------
"Well whose opinions did you THINK these were...?"
Christopher Morton
{uunet|backbone}!ncoast.org!cmort cm...@ncoast.org
Joe McConnell
as a rifle, a unix-based workstation, a gas stove, and a 1973 Volvo
station wagon.
Christopher Morton
# cars, motorcycles etc..
#
# I think we're lucky that they don't have a big small arms industry,
# else I'll bet that they'd run a lot of companies out of business
# with better, cheaper guns..... (?)
Looked at a Howa bolt gun lately? Their .308 varmint gun is very tempting.
Geoff Kotzar
#A swiss army rifle has a bulky red plastic stock and unfolds to function
#as a rifle, a unix-based workstation, a gas stove, and a 1973 Volvo
#station wagon.
#
I have to have one of these, where can I get one? Is the rifle full automatic
and is the Wagon automatic as well? I would prefer automatic/manual if that
model is available, but would settle for semi-auto if the Wagon is manual with
overdrive.
gmk
Joe McConnell
Sorry, BATF won't permit them to be imported unless the UNIX workstation
configuration only accepts 20 megabyte hard drives.