Don't use Ed's Red
Michael L. Kuchera
commercial bore cleaners will out perform Ed's Red, and yet they're a
lot safer. Automatic Transmission Fluid is not to be used in firearms.
Extensive testing was preformed by the RCMP (in Canada), and they found
many faults with tranny fluid on the firing pin. Mineral Spirits have
been used for years as a degreaser on firearms yet it will leave a
residue and is not recommended as well. Some mineral spirits are not
refined enough and will leave gum behind. Bad news. Acetone, in my
eyes, is a little strong to be used on guns. You must keep acetone away
from all finishes. As kerosene evaporates it will leave a gum behind as
well. All these ingrediants are not as highly refined as required for a
cleaning solvent for a firearm. As a general rule, use products that
are tested and proven for use by reputable companies that have been
around in the firearms' industry for years., and make products
specifically designed for use in firearms. You have to much invested to
be making home brew that might cause problems. Also, remember that when
you mix chemicals you never know what the end brew will be. Cost should
never be a factor when choosing a bore solvent. Mixing chemicals is not
safe unless you know what you're doing.
Michael L. Kuchera
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can learn about rec.guns at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
grantcunningham
#
# I've undisputeable reasons why Ed's Red should not be used. Yes
# commercial bore cleaners will out perform Ed's Red, and yet they're a
# lot safer.
Supply your controlled research results.
# Automatic Transmission Fluid is not to be used in firearms.
Who says? You?
# Extensive testing was preformed by the RCMP (in Canada), and they found
# many faults with tranny fluid on the firing pin.
Supply your source.
# Mineral Spirits have
# been used for years as a degreaser on firearms yet it will leave a
# residue and is not recommended as well.
By whom? You? A manufacturer of commercial cleaners whose business is
hurt by a much cheaper alternative?
# Some mineral spirits are not refined enough and will leave gum behind.
Supply your research.
# You must keep acetone away from all finishes.
"All finishes"? Please supply research detailing what the small
percentage of acetone in ER does to bluing, nickel plating (both electro
and electroless), parkerizing, hard chrome, and proprietary finishes
such as Glock's Tenifer.
# All these ingrediants are not as highly refined as required for a
# cleaning solvent for a firearm.
Supply your sources.
# As a general rule, use products that
# are tested and proven for use by reputable companies that have been
# around in the firearms' industry for years.
ER predates most of the "wonder lube/wonder cleaner" manufacturers by
several years; the original formula from which it was derived predates
ALL of them by several DECADES.
# and make products
# specifically designed for use in firearms. You have to much invested to
# be making home brew that might cause problems. Also, remember that when
# you mix chemicals you never know what the end brew will be. Cost should
# never be a factor when choosing a bore solvent. Mixing chemicals is not
# safe unless you know what you're doing.
Ed's Red, as Mr. Harris himself will tell you, is simply an updated
version of a bore cleaner that was published in a US Ordnance manual
back around the turn of the century. In his update, he states that he
enlisted the aid of a chemist to make sure that there was no danger to
health from the preparation.
Thousands upon thousands of people have been using ER over the last 15
years or so since he first published the formula; I've heard of no one
(including me) who has had any problem with finish degradation, the
mythical "harmful residues" of which you speak, or any other deleterious effects.
Until you can provide the proofs requested above, I (and many other
happy ER users) would really like it if you would refrain from posting
your idle shill-like speculations.
--
-=[ grant ]=-
--
REPLY-TO: gra...@bigfoot.com
=
"Where there are no men, strive to be a man" -- Hillel
=
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher an animal, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet,
balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take
orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a
new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects." -- Robert A. Heinlein
=
SLauer6165
WOW - I've been using it for over 5 yrs and love it. I have never had a problem
and find it superior to many of the "commercial" mixtures. It does not remove
copper fouling but I have other products for that.
I suggest you read more about Ed's red before making these broad,
unsubstantiated statements.
Nick Hull
L. Kuchera) wrote:
# I've undisputeable reasons why Ed's Red should not be used. Yes
# commercial bore cleaners will out perform Ed's Red, and yet they're a
# lot safer. Automatic Transmission Fluid is not to be used in firearms.
# Extensive testing was preformed by the RCMP (in Canada), and they found
# many faults with tranny fluid on the firing pin. Mineral Spirits have
# been used for years as a degreaser on firearms yet it will leave a
# residue and is not recommended as well. Some mineral spirits are not
# refined enough and will leave gum behind. Bad news. Acetone, in my
# eyes, is a little strong to be used on guns. You must keep acetone away
# from all finishes. As kerosene evaporates it will leave a gum behind as
# well. All these ingrediants are not as highly refined as required for a
# cleaning solvent for a firearm. As a general rule, use products that
# are tested and proven for use by reputable companies that have been
# around in the firearms' industry for years., and make products
# specifically designed for use in firearms. You have to much invested to
# be making home brew that might cause problems. Also, remember that when
# you mix chemicals you never know what the end brew will be. Cost should
# never be a factor when choosing a bore solvent. Mixing chemicals is not
# safe unless you know what you're doing.
#
# Michael L. Kuchera
#
Ed's Red has been tested & approved by many expert shooters.
--
Committees of Correspondence Web page:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
- free men own guns, slaves don't
Alex Clayton
testing was preformed by the RCMP (in Canada), and they found many
faults with tranny fluid on the firing pin.
Michael L. Kuchera
-----------------------------------------------
Hmmmm?
Well the Canadian space program being all it is i'm sure they know
their guns. I better go dump out the Ed's red in my shop.
#Get a shot off fast. This upsets him long enough
#to let you make your second shot perfect.
#Lazarus Long
Midnight Writer
>
> I've undisputeable reasons why Ed's Red should not be used.
Oh, good - I've been seriously considering making up a batch when my
supply of Hoppe's #9 runs out - hearing these reasons now would be a
great help.
MLK > Yes commercial bore cleaners will out perform Ed's Red, and yet
> they're a lot safer.
I've heard this disputed, repeatedly - by folks who have actually tried
Ed's Red.
MLK > Automatic Transmission Fluid is not to be used in firearms.
That's pretty solid-sounding, but I'd certainly appreciate a good reason
why not. It has been widely used for metalwork outside of
transmissions, with good reports.
MLK > Extensive testing was preformed by the RCMP (in Canada), and they
> found many faults with tranny fluid on the firing pin.
If you have a cite for this test report, that would be a pretty
conclusive bit of evidence. Where can I see this for myself?
MLK > Mineral Spirits have been used for years as a degreaser on
> firearms yet it will leave a residue and is not recommended as
> well.
If it is widely not recommended, who has been using it?
MLK > Some mineral spirits are not refined enough and will leave gum
> behind. Bad news.
This would seem, to me, to point toward the need for care in selecting a
mineral spirit, rather than avoiding all mineral spirits because some
aren't refined enough.
MLK > Acetone, in my eyes, is a little strong to be used on guns.
I've heard this said about spray automotive brake cleaner, too. But
Gun Scrubber is pretty much the same thing, and sold for the purpose of
cleaning guns.
MLK > You must keep acetone away from all finishes.
Again, this can be said for Gun Scrubber.
MLK > As kerosene evaporates it will leave a gum behind as well.
Hoppe's (which is largely kerosene) will leave a residue behind as well
- unless it's wiped off, which is standard gun-cleaning procedure in
this house.
MLK > [...] As a general rule, use products that are tested and proven
> for use by reputable companies that have been around in the
> firearms' industry for years., and make products specifically
> designed for use in firearms.
I have very little experience in mixing chemicals for mechanical work -
most of my experience in chemical combinations is in the field of
housepainting, as part of my misspent youth.
I know of one well-advertised, long-lived product in that field that
simply will not perform well, no matter what you do. It's bought by
thousands of folks for pretty serious money (based upon its well-known
reputation), but I have yet to meet a professional who will chose it.
In automotive work, you can go buy some fairly expensive parts cleaners
at the shop. Most pro shops use kerosene, or a kerosene/gasoline
mixture, which works better for much less cost.
Several name-brand cleaners are in the same category - I can mix up a
safe and effective 409 substitute for about 10 cents per bottle. In
side-by-side tests with a roomie who insisted on paying for 409, my mix
was shown to be more effective.
"Reputable companies", marketing to a specific (and somewhat limited)
market are not to be universally trusted.
MLK > You have to much invested to be making home brew that might cause
> problems.
We seem to have come from "undisputeable reasons" to "might cause
problems" - which is not very convincing to me.
MLK > Also, remember that when you mix chemicals you never know what the
> end brew will be.
On the contrary - if I mix up a batch of Ed's Red, I know that the end
brew will be - a batch of Ed's Red, a guncleaning solvent widely
recommended by users here, and developed by a professional gunmaker.
MLK > Cost should never be a factor when choosing a bore solvent.
Yeah, but I'm a cheap so-and-so. If a bore cleaner is very expensive,
I'll be prone to using less of it, and perhaps not do as good of a job
as I would if I were paying $10 per gallon for my solvent. Not an ideal
choice for me to make, but it's not an ideal world.
MLK > Mixing chemicals is not safe unless you know what you're doing.
This is quite true. But I have a lot of reference to draw upon if I
wish to make a batch of Ed's Red. It may or may not be a great gun
cleaner - my jury is still out on that. But if I mix up a batch
according to the fairly clear directions I've gotten, I *will* know what
I'm doing.
If I were to have a sudden urge to mix, say, household ammonia and
household bleach, I'd also know what I was doing - at least well enough
to seriously reconsider the urge, and approach the project with extreme
caution.
If you can point me toward that RCMP study, that'd be helpful - as I
said, my jury is still out, and I'm a fairly cautious sort where the
care of my firearms is concerned. But I've heard from a lot of people,
some of them much better versed in chemestry than I, who claim that Ed's
Red is Good Stuff, and have yet to hear a convincing argument for why I
should not trust thier recommendation. The RCMP study may, indeed, be
such a convincing argument - but this is the first I've heard of it.
-=<MIDNIGHT WRITER>=-
--
"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am
persecuted whenever I am contradicted." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
emd...@hockey.net Mpls./St. Paul, MN, USA
dgust...@dnco.org
enough quality ingredients for a good home brew gun cleaner, but I am not
going to be the one posting "Eds Red ruined my new rifle!". I dont buy
cheap firearms, and I am surely not going to try to save a few bucks by
brewing my own cleaner/solvents!
--Dan
Michael L. Kuchera <mlku...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8qfu24$a8f$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
graham...@my-deja.com
# commercial bore cleaners will out perform Ed's Red, and yet they're a
# lot safer. Automatic Transmission Fluid is not to be used in
firearms.
# Extensive testing was preformed by the RCMP (in Canada), and they
found
#<snip>
# Michael L. Kuchera
Gee, are you selling "G96 Complete Gun Treatment" too????
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
JFletcher
Canadian Police.
First of all nothing about being a policeman especially a Canadian one makes
you a firearms expert. So how about some source material please? Nothing
Canadian though...its like asking the French how to win a war or show
sustained bravery.
James
"Michael L. Kuchera" <mlku...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8qfu24$a8f$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
sharps_...@my-deja.com
dispute. I can only inform those who will listen that Eds Red is a
very effective solvent. It doesn't have copper dissolving attributes,
but it works quite well.
Good luck,
Sharps Shooter.
fl...@alaska.net
# I've undisputeable reasons why Ed's Red should not be used. Yes
# commercial bore cleaners will out perform Ed's Red, and yet they're a
# lot safer. Automatic Transmission Fluid is not to be used in firearms.
# Extensive testing was preformed by the RCMP (in Canada), ... Mixing
# chemicals is not safe unless you know what you're doing....
I can agree with at least part of the above post. I do not use Ed's
Red so I cannot comment on its effectiveness, but the comments above
about mixing chemicals are valid. In this and similar threads alone
we have read where shooters want to "modify" the Ed's formula,
sometimes apparently in a random manner. To do so may not only
compromise the positive qualities of Ed's, but could even cause
firearm damage. I use commercial bore cleaners, but if I mixed my own
I'd follow directions.
An example of haphazard mixing was the "problem" discovered when
shooters cleaned the powder residue in their rifles with 'Shooter's
Choice' and used 'Sweets 7.62' for the copper. The results of mixing
these two products in the bore are believed by many to have resulted
in the metal cracking and corrosion noted in their stainless bores.
Not a great thing, especially on a $600+ benchrest-type barrel.
Jay T
Marc Hildebrant
Marc
Jerry Morris
# commercial bore cleaners will out perform Ed's Red, and yet they're a
# lot safer. Automatic Transmission Fluid is not to be used in firearms.
# many faults with tranny fluid on the firing pin. Mineral Spirits have
# been used for years as a degreaser on firearms yet it will leave a
# residue and is not recommended as well. Some mineral spirits are not
# refined enough and will leave gum behind. Bad news. Acetone, in my
# eyes, is a little strong to be used on guns. You must keep acetone away
# from all finishes. As kerosene evaporates it will leave a gum behind as
# well. All these ingrediants are not as highly refined as required for a
# cleaning solvent for a firearm. As a general rule, use products that
# are tested and proven for use by reputable companies that have been
# around in the firearms' industry for years., and make products
# specifically designed for use in firearms. You have to much invested to
# be making home brew that might cause problems. Also, remember that when
# you mix chemicals you never know what the end brew will be. Cost should
# never be a factor when choosing a bore solvent. Mixing chemicals is not
#
# Michael L. Kuchera
Gee, THANKS Mike! I've been using Ed's Red for over ten years. All this
time I've thought I was using the same mix. All those gallons of mixing must
have mutated me into something super-human. I am now infected with the
dread "Ed's Red Factor".
"Ed's Red Factor" is a side effect of its making and use. It causes you to
look at little things, in the different light. You know, little things like
when you say reputable companies make good products and earlier said those
same companies can't make the component products of Ed's Red in any reliable
and stable quality. And guess what, a lot of those components are used in
many commercial bore cleaners. I suppose Sperm Whale Oil, other than being
a Whale product has nefarious effects upon guns. Guess what ATF replaced?
I kind of expected my .45 to be blowing "bubblegum" from your dire warning,
but, ALAS, it is a clean as can be. Still perks right along with nary a
bobble. Still looking as good as new, except fer them nasty light scratches
in strategic spots. THAT must have been the Ed's Red!
Bottomline Mike, I gotta say, YOU are full of bullshit! You're a chemist
with a product, aren't you?
Jerry Morris
Full Name
Do you have brown eyes by any chance?
On 22 Sep 2000 11:32:20 -0400, mlku...@webtv.net (Michael L.
Kuchera) wrote:
> ...
Kevin D Horn
Kerosene, is the original poster saying that all these people are
cleaning their gns wrong? :)
Seriously, are there any members of the Royal Mounted Canadian Police
out there that can tell us if the history of the tests, reasons for the
tests, the tests themselves, and the results of the test are
posted/availible online? If so, whats the URL? This should get to the
bottom of the matter.
Kevin David Horn
David Lee Brashier
explosion if there is an ignition source present.
David Lee Brashier
Abernathey Family
your 1911's. Use it to soak those yeuucky blow back semi-auto 22lr
pistols that are a nightmare to strip and clean. Use chemical gloves
(~$5)when scrubbing).
Store the ER in a 2 gal chemical bucket, about $3 at any paint store.
Enjoy your ER and smile at those who pay $200/gal for "Complete Gun
Treatments".
Thank you
Don Abernathey
fl...@alaska.net
# Ed's Red has been tested & approved by many expert shooters....
# I've been using Ed's Red for over ten years....
.....none of which proves that Ed's Red is safe, or unsafe, to use.
Many fatal diseases can take decades to develop; some people smoke for
60 years without problems, others die young of lung cancer.
Statements like the above two posts have no more validity than the
original poster's claims. Health issues are more important here than
the effectiveness of the cleaner.
I am not saying that Ed's Red is unhealthy to use - I don't know. But
I would still be careful about its use, just as I am with other strong
solvents ( Hoppes, Outers, Shooters Choice, Sweets, etc. ) by using
chemical gloves and a well ventelated area. [ I wouldn't be surprised
if it would damage many wood finishes either. ] Use Ed's if you like,
and bask in the glow of all the precious money you have saved. But
don't come whining to the NG if ever diagnosed with an attributable
disease......we are each responsible for our own choices and risk
management.
Jay T
Pjtg0707
Brashier) wrote:
#Kerosene and Acetone may not mix, and they may cause a fire or an
#explosion if there is an ignition source present.
Kerosene or acetone by itself may explode or ignite if there is an
ignition source present. Come to think of it, so are gasoline and gun
powders, not to mention Hopps 9.....
Jeffrey C. Dege
#Kerosene and Acetone may not mix, and they may cause a fire or an
#explosion if there is an ignition source present.
Either kerosene or acetone separately may cause a fire or an explosion
if there is an ignition source present. As will gasoline or any other
flammable liquid.
What makes mixing them an issue?
--
Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty
when the government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom
are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded
rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious
encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.
- Justice Louis Brandeis
John A. Stovall
#You stated a lot of things as fact without sighting a source other than The
#Canadian Police.
#First of all nothing about being a policeman especially a Canadian one makes
#you a firearms expert. So how about some source material please? Nothing
#Canadian though...its like asking the French how to win a war or show
#sustained bravery.
As a collector of French small arms and serious student of the
Parachutists and the Legion, I must disagree with your statement "show
sustained bravery". If the Parachutists and Legionnaires at Dien Bien
Phu did not show sustained bravery for those 56 days, I don't know
what bravery is. The same can be said of the Legion at Camerone, in
19th century which is celebrated by Legionnaires all over the world on
April 30th as being the penultimate example of sustained bravery and
dedication.
See:
http://users.deltanet.com/users/llambert/public_html/legion7.html
http://users.deltanet.com/users/llambert/public_html/legion12.html
Putnam City North High School
Shooter's Choice MC 7 and Sweet's 7.62. Haven't heard any recent
reports for a llloooooooooooooooonnngg
time. I think the problem was a pitting in the bore. Anywho, I think
that is why Venco introduced their Shooter's Choice Copper Remover in
1991.
Andrew T Still
TimeRanger
Brashier) wrote:
#Kerosene and Acetone may not mix, and they may cause a fire or an
#explosion if there is an ignition source present.
#
#David Lee Brashier
1) Ed's Red has been "mixing" for many years 2) No shit??
arn_werks
Dr, Shin may demand that I turn in my degrees but here goes
anyway. Kerosene and mineral spirits are not single compounds
like methyl ether, toluene, propane and such as that sort of
chemical that you can by at $100 per gram at 99.999 % purity. (
literally for some test purposes ). Rather kerosene and mineral
spirits are a mix of different petroleum products that are
called kerosene or mineral spirits. You all know that gasoline
formulation for you car changes with the season.
I used to clean greasy parts with mineral spirits. I've had
some batches that would be clean in a week or so while with some
batches, you could see mineral spirits for up to a year after
cleaning. There seems to me to be a different smell to some
batches of kerosene when I heat my living room with it. I
suspect that those differences may be reflected in some of the
mixed reviews of Ed's Red.
The best degreaser that I know of is boiling gasoline. Don't
use it just because it's the best. Rather don't use it because
it will blow you up.
Regards and I will not again get involved in what is a religious
argument about Ed's Red.
Take care of your weapon and it will take care of you,
Regards,
Red Bell
George Tyrebyter
#
# eyes, is a little strong
You're not supposed to put it in your eyes.
--
George Tyrebyter
atstill
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/1221/gun_cln.htm
If anyone must try this lead cleaning witch's brew, please try it on a nail,
and keep your guns far, far, far, far away from this stuff. :) Steve H --
http://www.bigfoot.com/~S_C_Horn
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Seiden
results. I investigated E'd Red only after seeing the discussions on this
newsgroup, and the postings that followed my personal test results seems to
support it. And then there are the replies to your post...
Ron Gaber Ed.S.
Abernathey Family <fam...@aracnet.com> wrote:
> ...
Break-Free CLP, which cost much more than G-96 Complete Gun Treatment, only
cost a mear $76.5O a gallon, so G 96 Complete Gun Treatment cannot cost
$2OO.OO a gallon. Get a calculator and do the math. Sheesh! -- Ron Gaber
Ed.S.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------