50AE bullets

[real_gri...@yahoo.co.uk]

Hi All

I have for a few years been experimenting with a range of swaged bullets for
my 50AE Rifle (Greener Mk2 Conversion) so far :-
325gr FMJ (FN, RN, FB & HB)
325gr Lead (FN & RN) with Phosphor Bronze Scraper

All shoot well but my supplier has retired and sold the dies, does anyone
know of any other small outfit that does this sort of work in the UK,


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[clarkm...@gmail.com]

I have developed a 50 caliber round using 56-50 Spencer center fire brass cut down to .45" long.

I compress a soft lead ball into the shape of a bullet between two dies in two presses that are screwed together.

I do this for a number of reasons, one is that I do not want any gas escaping around the lead ball. The bullet must seal the lands when chambered.

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/ClarkM/Twopressestoseatandsquisha50calballintobulletshapewithramandhomemadedie8-6-2012.jpg

[real_gri...@yahoo.co.uk]

23 April 2013 at 2:08, clarkm...@gmail.com wrote:
Re: 50AE bullets (at least in part)

Thanks for your input

I'm a little confused, the 56-50scf is already shorter than .45 long (Colt) @
1.159 vs 1.285, if you mean cut case to 0.45, you don't have much room for
powder once you seat your bullet ?

# I have developed a 50 caliber round using 56-50 Spencer center fire brass
#cut down to .45" long.

Your rig (obviously) works with soft lead, but to swage a FMJ requires more
pressure (and at least three stages), even the RNLSB (Lead with
PhosphorBronze Scarper) takes a lot of umph to swage (but only two stages)
and a large swaging press

This all started when JSP rounds were banned here, so I had all my old
Samson/IMI 300gr bullets reverse swaged to RN-JHB (the case became the point)
worked fairly well (with a slight line around the neck that had been the base
edge)

[Gunner Asch]

You have a pretty complete shop there. Shaper and everything

https://picasaweb.google.com/104042282269066802602

Heres my little hobby shop

https://picasaweb.google.com/104042282269066802602/ShopDec282012

[Gunner Asch]

On Tue, 23 Apr 2013 02:08:18 +0000 (UTC), "clarkm...@gmail.com"
<clarkm...@gmail.com> wrote:

# I have developed a 50 caliber round using 56-50 Spencer center fire brass cut down to .45" long.
#
#I compress a soft lead ball into the shape of a bullet between two dies in two presses that are screwed together.
#
#I do this for a number of reasons, one is that I do not want any gas escaping around the lead ball. The bullet must seal the lands when chambered.
#

Oh..have you considered using miniballs? Might give you better
sectional density than a ball

[SaPeIsMa]

<real_gri...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:kl34ps$a24$1...@news.albasani.net...
# Hi All
#
# I have for a few years been experimenting with a range of swaged bullets
# for
# my 50AE Rifle (Greener Mk2 Conversion) so far :-
# 325gr FMJ (FN, RN, FB & HB)
# 325gr Lead (FN & RN) with Phosphor Bronze Scraper
#
# All shoot well but my supplier has retired and sold the dies, does anyone
# know of any other small outfit that does this sort of work in the UK,
#

Why not just do it yourself
<http://www.midwayusa.com/product/475901/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-50-320-real-50-caliber-517-diameter-320-grain-real>

[real_gri...@yahoo.co.uk]

24 April 2013 at 18:07, SaPeIsMa wrote:
Re: 50AE bullets (at least in part)

#<real_gri...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
#news:kl34ps$a24$1...@news.albasani.net...

## I have for a few years been experimenting with a range of swaged bullets
## for
## my 50AE Rifle (Greener Mk2 Conversion) so far :-
## 325gr FMJ (FN, RN, FB & HB)
## 325gr Lead (FN & RN) with Phosphor Bronze Scraper
##
## All shoot well but my supplier has retired and sold the dies, does anyone
## know of any other small outfit that does this sort of work in the UK,
##
#
#Why not just do it yourself
#<http://www.midwayusa.com/product/475901/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-50-320-rea
#l-50-caliber-517-diameter-320-grain-real>

Mainly because the REAL will not seat in the 50AE case, I had wondered about
trying with a 380gr Minnie as I use them both (plus a 495 LB) in my 50 CVA,
but the Greener is a 50AE cartridge rifle, and has shot well with the
mentioned selection of 325gr (+300gr IMI) FMJ bullets, MV=1860 & 1920 fps

The Lead (with scraper) bullets work well enough but are harder to reload
than the jacketed, need the case flared and, a powder charge change (the
FMJ's have a slight hollow base the lead a button) and need care not to apply
a crimp (head space!!)

[Gunner Asch]

#Mainly because the REAL will not seat in the 50AE case, I had wondered about
#trying with a 380gr Minnie as I use them both (plus a 495 LB) in my 50 CVA,
#but the Greener is a 50AE cartridge rifle, and has shot well with the
#mentioned selection of 325gr (+300gr IMI) FMJ bullets, MV=1860 & 1920 fps

Whats the diameters of both?

[real_gri...@yahoo.co.uk]

27 April 2013 at 10:08, Gunner Asch wrote:
Re: 50AE bullets (at least in part)

##Mainly because the REAL will not seat in the 50AE case, I had wondered about
##trying with a 380gr Minnie as I use them both (plus a 495 LB) in my 50 CVA,
##but the Greener is a 50AE cartridge rifle, and has shot well with the
##mentioned selection of 325gr (+300gr IMI) FMJ bullets, MV=1860 & 1920 fps
#
#Whats the diameters of both?

Minnie (sized and lubed), FMJ's & Swaged Lead are 0.500 the REAL is larger
(at the ridges) but not sure the exact size as I shot or remelted them all
(IMO & CVA they don't shoot that well compared to the Minnie), so don't have
one to Mic at moment, they are really not suited to cartridges?

[Gunner Asch]

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:55:13 +0000 (UTC), real_gri...@yahoo.co.uk
wrote:

#27 April 2013 at 10:08, Gunner Asch wrote:
#Re: 50AE bullets (at least in part)
#
###Mainly because the REAL will not seat in the 50AE case, I had wondered about
###trying with a 380gr Minnie as I use them both (plus a 495 LB) in my 50 CVA,
###but the Greener is a 50AE cartridge rifle, and has shot well with the
###mentioned selection of 325gr (+300gr IMI) FMJ bullets, MV=1860 & 1920 fps
##
##Whats the diameters of both?
#
#Minnie (sized and lubed), FMJ's & Swaged Lead are 0.500 the REAL is larger
#(at the ridges) but not sure the exact size as I shot or remelted them all
#(IMO & CVA they don't shoot that well compared to the Minnie), so don't have
#one to Mic at moment, they are really not suited to cartridges?

Are you familiar with the term "swaging"?

Its quite simple to bore or ream a hole in a bit of metal and push
that bullet into a tube that squeezes it down to whatever size you
require.

Any jackleg machinist or home shop hobby guy can make a simple swage
to do this.

If your bullet is .458..and you need it to be .450...its a very very
easy thing to do. Ive made swages to bring .458 slugs down to .440,
with little damage to the slug. The grease grooves get a bit
shallower is all

Lead is very "ductile" and it mooshs quite nicely and very easily.

Gunner

[real_gri...@yahoo.co.uk]

28 April 2013 at 23:43, Gunner Arsch wrote:
Re: 50AE bullets (at least in part)

#On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 10:55:13 +0000 (UTC), real_gri...@yahoo.co.uk
#wrote:

###Whats the diameters of both?
##
##Minnie (sized and lubed), FMJ's & Swaged Lead are 0.500 the REAL is larger
##(at the ridges) but not sure the exact size as I shot or remelted them all
##(IMO & CVA they don't shoot that well compared to the Minnie), so don't have
##one to Mic at moment, they are really not suited to cartridges?

#Are you familiar with the term "swaging"?

Yes I am, if you read my last, "Minnie (sized and lubed)" I do have a .50
sizing die (c/w head & base punch)

BUT

There is a difference between sizing down a cast bullet (Whilst keeping the
head/base profile in tact) and making an FMJ With :-

6 Dia Set (2 Size, 2 Head, 2 Base)
Copper Jacket (Trimmed & Weighed)
Lead Rod (Cut to Weight)
Base Disk / Gas Check (Weighed)

1) Form Jacket to head profile

2) Form Lead to just fit in jacket (at this stage its a slightly long / thin,
but perfectly shaped bullet)

3) Put that in the preformed Jacket from (1)

4) Add the Base Disk / Gas Check

5) Final Press

6) Weigh/Measure

Of Cause making up the Lead with PB Scraper takes less (Press) steps :-

4 Dia Set (inc Std Flat Punch)
Punch/Cutter for Scraper
Phospher Bronze Sheet
Lead Rod (Cut to Weight)

1) Punch PB Scraper from Sheet and Weigh

2) Form Lead to Head Profile (flat base)

3) Add Scraper

4) Final Form with Scraper Base Punch (has slight dimple to allow lead to
"flow" thru hole in Scraper and fix it to bullet)

5) Weigh/Measure

#From experience the steps cannot be reduced for consistent results, step (4)
can be skipped for the FMJ if they are for softer loads, but that means
adjusting the Lead weight to keep bullet weight constant...

#Its quite simple to bore or ream a hole in a bit of metal and push
#that bullet into a tube that squeezes it down to whatever size you
#require.

#Any jackleg machinist or home shop hobby guy can make a simple swage
#to do this.

#If your bullet is .458..and you need it to be .450...its a very very
#easy thing to do. Ive made swages to bring .458 slugs down to .440,
#with little damage to the slug. The grease grooves get a bit
#shallower is all

R.E.A.L bullets don't exactly have lube canular (grooves) they have ridges
with large valleys between

#Lead is very "ductile" and it mooshs quite nicely and very easily.

[Gunner Asch]

##Are you familiar with the term "swaging"?
#
#Yes I am, if you read my last, "Minnie (sized and lubed)" I do have a .50
#sizing die (c/w head & base punch)

You dont use a bullet sizer in your luber to swage with. You will bust
the die and jam up your lubricator. Or am I missing something?

##If your bullet is .458..and you need it to be .450...its a very very
##easy thing to do. Ive made swages to bring .458 slugs down to .440,
##with little damage to the slug. The grease grooves get a bit
##shallower is all
#
#R.E.A.L bullets don't exactly have lube canular (grooves) they have ridges
#with large valleys between

Yes and? How much reduction in size are you needing to do? A few
thousands..jacketed bullets will swage almost as easily as cast slugs
will. Thats what a rifle barrel does..right?

Ive converted 323/8mm jacketed bullets to .315 with no issues
whatsoever. Just pushed em through the die. A bit of STP wiped on the
jacket didnt hurt. Didnt even have to pull the handle hard. Late war
8mm Mauser slugs.

No..you arent going to push them through with a popsicle stick or
wooden dowel. A press is required.

As for the lube grooves...REAL bullets do have them. They are just
really big and wide. Lets assume for a moment that they are say....
..07 deep. 70 thousands. Thats 35 thousands per side. If you reduce
the diameter a total of say... .015 15 thousands..thats only 7 and a
half thousands per side. The human hair is about 5 thousands of an
inch. I dont have a REAL bullet at hand..but they are closer to 100
thousands tall IRRC ..and sizing them down isnt going to make much
difference in the slightest. If you have a moment and a REAL bullet,
take your calipers and measure diameter at top of ridge and bottom of
ridge and let me know what the diameters of each are.

If you have the old Phil Sharpe book on handloading..he covers bullet
conversions quite nicely in my version. And in fact..he was both
reducing bullet diameter..and INCREASING bullet diameter. Which Ive
also done. Taken .308 slugs and "bumping" them up to 318 (for an early
98). Ya simply push down on the point..and they get fatter <Grin>

A bigger press or a small hydraulic jack works really nice for that.
<G>

Oh..and I dont mean reloading press when I say 'bigger press"

http://www.dumont.com/bushings-shims-arbor-presses/arbor-presses/

Oh..more on the subject from other shooters

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?274283-Resizing-FMJ-bullets

Or..as one of the posters pointed out in the link above...have your
bullets cut out of brass or bronze in a CNC shop on a screw machine.
These days...lots of shops are clinging to life by their
fingernails...and would crank out bullets for you for very very little
money in a run.


Gunner

[Bob Holtzman]

# Oh..more on the subject from other shooters

#
# http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?274283-Resizing-FMJ-bullets

I suggest reading this url. Note the part that says, in part:

Jacketed bullets are made by bumping them up to the desired diameter.
Reducing them will result in loose jackets and lopsided bullets which
will be bad for accuracy.

This is because, when swaged down, the jackets will exhibit spring back
while the lead core doesn't. This is the reason benchrest bullets are
always made by bumping up and not squeezing down.

Can't attest to the lopsided bullets part but the rest is spot on.

--
Bob Holtzman

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 21:52:27 +0000 (UTC), Bob Holtzman
<hol...@cox.net> wrote:

## Oh..more on the subject from other shooters
##
## http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?274283-Resizing-FMJ-bullets
#
#I suggest reading this url. Note the part that says, in part:
#
#Jacketed bullets are made by bumping them up to the desired diameter.
#Reducing them will result in loose jackets and lopsided bullets which
#will be bad for accuracy.
#
#This is because, when swaged down, the jackets will exhibit spring back
#while the lead core doesn't. This is the reason benchrest bullets are
#always made by bumping up and not squeezing down.
#
#Can't attest to the lopsided bullets part but the rest is spot on.

It largely depends on how the shrinking was done. I generally do it
with softpoints..and with a well fitting nose punch..the nose is
pushed back into the jacket a bit..and fills the hole. Other methods
using FMJs..one pushes the open base (military rounds) deeper into the
bullet jacket and it doesnt allow the jacket to spring very far if at
all.

Shrug

Will they be sub moa capable bullets? Probably not. In a handgun or
rifle not capable of sub moa accuracy? Nothing to worry about, move
along, move along.


Gunner

[real_gri...@yahoo.co.uk]

29 April 2013 at 21:52, Bob Holtzman wrote:
Re: 50AE bullets (at least in part)

## Oh..more on the subject from other shooters

## http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?274283-Resizing-FMJ-bullets

#I suggest reading this url. Note the part that says, in part:

I think we have moved away from my original query (a long way) I wanted to
find a small UK company or sole trader that could "MAKE FROM SCRATCH" FMJ
bullets to spec (Press / Swage) the reason for small is that way we can work
together to get the best results as the bullet develoment for this rifle is
still in the early stages, but shows promise

I did mention that I had had a box of IMI JHP 50AE bullets "reverse" (soft
point became hollow base) swaged, as I had about 100 left over when law
changed in UK to ban them (1997 amendment) but that is not my ongoing
intention, one because they don't shoot as well & less because I doubt they
can be got over here anymore (legally)

Why we got side tracked with using muzzle loading bullets (R.E.A.L) I'm not
sure, AFAIK they are NOT suitible for my purpose i.e. using in a cartridge,
and one that will (does) have a MV of 1860-1920 fps (with the 325 and 300gr
FMJ bullets I mentioned)

[real_gri...@yahoo.co.uk]

29 April 2013 at 13:54, Gunner Asch wrote:
Re: 50AE bullets (at least in part)

###Are you familiar with the term "swaging"?

##Yes I am, if you read my last, "Minnie (sized and lubed)" I do have a .50
##sizing die (c/w head & base punch)

#You dont use a bullet sizer in your luber to swage with. You will bust
#the die and jam up your lubricator. Or am I missing something?

I lube the Minnie with a mix of BeesWax/ Tallow (did try bacon fat just for
that plains hunter smell once) then pass it thru the sizer, usually at the
range in batches of 10 or so, but that is for my muzzle loader (CVA)
NOT the 50AE

#If you have a moment and a REAL bullet, take your calipers and measure
#diameter at top of ridge and bottom of ridge and let me know what the
#diameters of each are.

The only one I have is in the mould, I always leave the last bullet(s) in to
keep the air out