45-70 Bolt Actions

72 views
Skip to first unread message

peterw...@hotmail.com

unread,
Oct 6, 2007, 8:29:46 PM10/6/07
to
Looking in the Google archives, I found that several people have
expressed an interest in obtaining a bolt action rifle in 45-70
caliber, most commonly done by converting a Siamese Mauser or P-14
Enfield. Many have suggested instead getting a 458 Winchester magnum
and loading it down, or using the 458 X 2" wildcat.

Now the 450 Marlin is available, and any bolt action with a H&H magnum
bolt face can ve easily adopted to it. It is also available as a
factory chambering from Steyr. Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
older cartridge in a bolt action?

Thank you,
Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------

trippin-2-8-trak

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 8:07:09 AM10/7/07
to
Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
# ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
# older cartridge in a bolt action?


rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for decades now

that cartridge has staying power

Clark Magnuson

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 8:07:12 AM10/7/07
to
I built a 45/70 on a 91/30 action with a Shilen Chrome Moly bull barrel.
It is single shot and kicks like a mule.
I ground a tool to cut the bolt face.
I cut the extractor relief cut in the breech face of the barrel with
incremental rotations of the barrel in the mill vise.

Natman

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 8:07:21 AM10/7/07
to
On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 00:29:46 +0000 (UTC), peterw...@hotmail.com
wrote:

#Looking in the Google archives, I found that several people have
#expressed an interest in obtaining a bolt action rifle in 45-70
#caliber, most commonly done by converting a Siamese Mauser or P-14
#Enfield. Many have suggested instead getting a 458 Winchester magnum
#and loading it down, or using the 458 X 2" wildcat.
#
#Now the 450 Marlin is available, and any bolt action with a H&H magnum
#bolt face can ve easily adopted to it. It is also available as a
#factory chambering from Steyr. Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
#ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
#older cartridge in a bolt action?

No. Actions that can feed a rimmed round are rare and/or obsolete. As
you point out, the 450 Marlin feeds much better from a bolt action.
The 450 Marlin is factory loaded *much* hotter that factory 45-70
loads, although it is possible to match it with 45-70 handloads.

sta...@prolynx.com

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 8:07:32 AM10/7/07
to
On Oct 6, 6:29 pm, peterweze...@hotmail.com wrote:
# Looking in the Google archives, I found that several people have
# expressed an interest in obtaining a bolt action rifle in 45-70
# caliber, most commonly done by converting a Siamese Mauser or P-14
# Enfield. Many have suggested instead getting a 458 Winchester magnum
# and loading it down, or using the 458 X 2" wildcat.
#
# Now the 450 Marlin is available, and any bolt action with a H&H magnum
# bolt face can ve easily adopted to it. It is also available as a
# factory chambering from Steyr. Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
# ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
# older cartridge in a bolt action?
#
# Thank you,
# Peter Wezeman
# anti-social Darwinist
#
I see no reason to use it in a bolt action at all, but different guns
for different tastes. From the decades-old gun rag articles, the main
interest was in getting a cheap rifle out of the effort that could be
hotted up to near .458 Mag ballistics using cheap brass. Siamese
Mausers were cheap surplus at the time and there were still a few semi-
inletted stock makers where wood could be had cheaply. Times change,
you can get a Marlin in either .450 Marlin or .45-70 for a lot cheaper
than you can find and hack up a surplus rifle, since they're no longer
surplus any more but collector's items. Only reason to use a .45-70
in such a gun is that 1) you already have one from the past, and/or 2)
you're a handloader and brass is more available. The .450 Marlin was
made up for the non-handloader using a lever gun, not much difference
between the factory loads and hot .45-70 handloads. For a custom bolt
gun, I can think of a lot more desirable cartridges for the bucks than
either of those two. If you're going to go for a magnum bolt face
anyway, go with the .458 Magnum or its derivatives. For a off-the-
shelf big-bore repeater, I'd plunk down the bucks for the 1895 in .
45-70 and a set of dies. It'll handle any game on this continent and a
lot in Afrca, too.

Stan

Thomas Reynolds

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 8:07:42 AM10/7/07
to

<peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fe999q$7u1$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...

# Looking in the Google archives, I found that several people have
# expressed an interest in obtaining a bolt action rifle in 45-70
# caliber, most commonly done by converting a Siamese Mauser or P-14
# Enfield. Many have suggested instead getting a 458 Winchester magnum
# and loading it down, or using the 458 X 2" wildcat.
#
# Now the 450 Marlin is available, and any bolt action with a H&H magnum
# bolt face can ve easily adopted to it. It is also available as a
# factory chambering from Steyr. Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
# ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
# older cartridge in a bolt action?
#
# Thank you,
# Peter Wezeman
# anti-social Darwinist

(Are you against Social Darwinism, or are you a Darwinist who doesn't play
well with others?)
The ballistics for the factory loads are very different. There is really no
way to discuss the comparable ballistics of hand loads given how many
variations folks come up with. Your question might really be why would
anyone buy any 45-70 since the .450 Marlin is available, but that would
start a long line of questions concerning the 30-06 given the .308 or the
300 Winmag, etc.

Guns...@accurate.net

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 8:07:44 AM10/7/07
to
IK own both a .45-70 (in a Marlin) and a .458x2" American (on a P-17).
The two are nearly idential ballistically, except the .458 can be
loaded hotter in the bolt action. The .450 Marlin is essentially a
domesticated version of the .458x2, with the belt thickened a bit so
you can't accidntally chamber and fire it in your 7mm Rem Mag.

My bore is not quite smooth enough to shoot well with cast bullets,
but with the proper jacketed loads, it'll do better than
minute-of-angle. It's not a gun for plinking or for the faint of
heart, but I like it.

Short answer to your question is, there's no practical reason to put a
..45-70 on a bolt action. But how many us acquire firearms for purely
practical reasons?

TS

On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 00:29:46 +0000 (UTC), peterw...@hotmail.com
wrote:

> ...

Bluehawk99

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 8:07:48 AM10/7/07
to
Peter I opted for the .458 Win Mag in a Czech VZ24 Mauser action and
can tell you it is much more comfortable shooting with it's stock than
shooting high pressure .45-70 rounds from the lever action Marlin
stocks with bullet weight and velocites being equal (300 grain lead
alloy bullet...2100fps).
I also have the option to go to full power magnum loads if the need
arises.
I never truly understood the reason Marlin developed the .450 as their
1895 .45-70 can handle loads far above the original 28,000 PSI loads
established for the older rolling blocks, Sharps and Trapdoors unless
it was because many folks don't hand load.

George

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 8:07:49 AM10/7/07
to
# ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
# older cartridge in a bolt action?
#

The .450 is a lot more likely to go away than the .45/70; I wouldn't expect
it to happen though.
George in Las Vegas

Ron Bloom

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 8:07:57 AM10/7/07
to

<peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fe999q$7u1$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...

The Remington-Lee


> ...

oldpink

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 8:30:24 PM10/7/07
to
trippin-2-8-trak wrote:
# Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
# # ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
# # older cartridge in a bolt action?
#
#
# rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for decades now
#
# that cartridge has staying power

Cowboy action shooting and some hunters in the deep woods who don't like
their deer to run far when hit are the main reasons for its longevity.
It's also originally a military cartrige, as are the .45 ACP, .45 Colt,
..30-06, .308, 9mm, and .223.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.

sta...@prolynx.com

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 8:31:16 PM10/7/07
to
On Oct 7, 6:07 am, Bluehawk99 <Bluehaw...@aol.com> wrote:
# Peter I opted for the .458 Win Mag in a Czech VZ24 Mauser action and
# can tell you it is much more comfortable shooting with it's stock than
# shooting high pressure .45-70 rounds from the lever action Marlin
# stocks with bullet weight and velocites being equal (300 grain lead
# alloy bullet...2100fps).
# I also have the option to go to full power magnum loads if the need
# arises.
# I never truly understood the reason Marlin developed the .450 as their
# 1895 .45-70 can handle loads far above the original 28,000 PSI loads
# established for the older rolling blocks, Sharps and Trapdoors unless
# it was because many folks don't hand load.
#
As I said above, the .450 was developed for the weekend hunter with NO
interest in handloading. There ARE guys out there, lots of them and
probably ones that don't read this list, that actually leave their
brass at the range and in the field. Buy a box of "bullets" and make
it last for 5 seasons. It's new and also a novelty, a belted "magnum"
in a lever gun, so there's two items to get the hordes interested in
buying a new gun. Off-the-shelf factory loads for the .45-70 aren't
really thrilling, ballistics-wise. Haven't seen sales figures for the
gun or ammo, though and I'll bet the die sales chart shows it
somewhere around the bottom, around 5.5 Velo Dog.

Stan

Natman

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 8:31:31 PM10/7/07
to
On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:07:09 +0000 (UTC), "trippin-2-8-trak"
<hs...@epix.net> wrote:

#Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
## ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
## older cartridge in a bolt action?
#
#
#rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for decades now
#
#that cartridge has staying power
#
#
Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
assured.

Natman

unread,
Oct 7, 2007, 8:31:35 PM10/7/07
to
On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:07:48 +0000 (UTC), Bluehawk99
<Blueh...@aol.com> wrote:

#Peter I opted for the .458 Win Mag in a Czech VZ24 Mauser action and
#can tell you it is much more comfortable shooting with it's stock than
#shooting high pressure .45-70 rounds from the lever action Marlin
#stocks with bullet weight and velocites being equal (300 grain lead
#alloy bullet...2100fps).
#I also have the option to go to full power magnum loads if the need
#arises.
#I never truly understood the reason Marlin developed the .450 as their
#1895 .45-70 can handle loads far above the original 28,000 PSI loads
#established for the older rolling blocks, Sharps and Trapdoors unless
#it was because many folks don't hand load.

Exactly. It was for folks who don't handload. The 450 Marlin gives
warm handloaded 45-70 ballistics without the worry that the ammo will
be fired in some weak blackpowder rifle.

Thomas Reynolds

unread,
Oct 8, 2007, 8:04:33 AM10/8/07
to

"Natman" <nat_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:febtp3$9qs$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:07:09 +0000 (UTC), "trippin-2-8-trak"
# <hs...@epix.net> wrote:
#
# #Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
# ## ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
# ## older cartridge in a bolt action?
# #
# #

# #rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for decades
# now
# #

# #that cartridge has staying power
# #
# #

# Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
# actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
# assured.
You can use *bullets* in bolt actions which would be dangerous in a tube fed
lever action like the Marlin 45-70 which is a possible use for the bolt
action.

Anthony W

unread,
Oct 8, 2007, 8:04:39 AM10/8/07
to
Natman wrote:

# Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt

# actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
# assured.

I seem to remember some pattern 14 Enfields being rebarreled to .45-70.
If a bolt action rifle can feed .303 Brit, why can't a one feed .45-70?

Tony

jadel

unread,
Oct 8, 2007, 7:30:14 PM10/8/07
to
On Oct 7, 8:31 pm, sta...@prolynx.com wrote:
# Oct 7, 6:07 am, Bluehawk99 <Bluehaw...@aol.com> wrote:
# There ARE guys out there, lots of them and
# probably ones that don't read this list, that actually leave their
# brass at the range ...

I was at the range the other day and found half a dozen brand new,
nickel-plated .300 Win mag. cases. Somebody there had money to burn.
I took them home, and I don't even own a .300 Win Mag.

Given that metal theft has become a serious problem in WV, I'm
surprised the thieves aren't scrounging the local gun range.

J. Del Col

oldpink

unread,
Oct 8, 2007, 7:31:19 PM10/8/07
to
Thomas Reynolds wrote:
# "Natman" <nat_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# news:febtp3$9qs$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:07:09 +0000 (UTC), "trippin-2-8-trak"

# # <hs...@epix.net> wrote:
# #
# # #Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
# # ## ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
# # ## older cartridge in a bolt action?
# # #
# # #

# # #rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for decades
# # now

# # #
# # #that cartridge has staying power
# # #
# # #

# # Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
# # actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
# # assured.
# You can use *bullets* in bolt actions which would be dangerous in a tube fed
# lever action like the Marlin 45-70 which is a possible use for the bolt
# action.

You are talking about spitzers.
Hornady has recently come out with the LeveRevolution bullet, which uses
what they describe as an elastomer tipped spitzer that allows pointed
bullets without the danger of a chain fire in the magazine tube.


--
And what exactly is a joke?
.

Herb Leong

unread,
Oct 9, 2007, 7:20:00 AM10/9/07
to
In article <feeek7$c41$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
oldpink <misass...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#Hornady has recently come out with the LeveRevolution bullet, which uses
# what they describe as an elastomer tipped spitzer that allows pointed
#bullets without the danger of a chain fire in the magazine tube.

My wife would be a lot happier if Hornady started selling them as
components instead of only in loaded rounds.

/herb

Thomas Reynolds

unread,
Oct 9, 2007, 7:20:02 AM10/9/07
to

"oldpink" <misass...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:feeek7$c41$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Thomas Reynolds wrote:
# # "Natman" <nat_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# # news:febtp3$9qs$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # # On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:07:09 +0000 (UTC), "trippin-2-8-trak"

# # # <hs...@epix.net> wrote:
# # #
# # # #Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
# # # ## ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use
# the
# # # ## older cartridge in a bolt action?

# # # #
# # # #
# # # #rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for
# decades
# # # now
# # # #
# # # #that cartridge has staying power

# # # #
# # # #
# # # Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
# # # actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
# # # assured.
# # You can use *bullets* in bolt actions which would be dangerous in a tube
# fed
# # lever action like the Marlin 45-70 which is a possible use for the bolt
# # action.
#
# You are talking about spitzers.
# Hornady has recently come out with the LeveRevolution bullet, which uses
# what they describe as an elastomer tipped spitzer that allows pointed
# bullets without the danger of a chain fire in the magazine tube.
Spitzers are a good example, but some others are risky too.

Natman

unread,
Oct 9, 2007, 7:20:06 AM10/9/07
to
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:04:33 +0000 (UTC), "Thomas Reynolds"
<tom.re...@verizon.net> wrote:

#
#"Natman" <nat_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
#news:febtp3$9qs$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
## On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:07:09 +0000 (UTC), "trippin-2-8-trak"
## <hs...@epix.net> wrote:
##
## #Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
## ## ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
## ## older cartridge in a bolt action?
## #
## #
## #rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for decades
## now
## #
## #that cartridge has staying power
## #
## #
## Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
## actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
## assured.
#You can use *bullets* in bolt actions which would be dangerous in a tube fed
#lever action like the Marlin 45-70 which is a possible use for the bolt
#action.
That's quite true. Those bullets would still be better off loaded into
a 450 Marlin than a 45-70 because of the feeding difficulties
presented when trying to use a rimmed cartridge in a bolt action.

Natman

unread,
Oct 9, 2007, 7:20:08 AM10/9/07
to
On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:04:39 +0000 (UTC), Anthony W
<techn...@yahoo.com> wrote:

#Natman wrote:
#
## Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
## actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
## assured.
#
#I seem to remember some pattern 14 Enfields being rebarreled to .45-70.
# If a bolt action rifle can feed .303 Brit, why can't a one feed .45-70?
#
It is certainly *possible* to get a bolt action to feed rimmed
cartridges, witness the Lee Enfield, Siamese Mauser, etc. It's just a
lot *easier* to find one that will feed a cartridge like the 450
Marlin.

JEB

unread,
Oct 9, 2007, 7:20:24 AM10/9/07
to

"Anthony W" <techn...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fed6cn$r8s$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Natman wrote:
#
# # Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
# # actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
# # assured.
#
# I seem to remember some pattern 14 Enfields being rebarreled to .45-70.
# If a bolt action rifle can feed .303 Brit, why can't a one feed .45-70?

The P-14 Enfield can be converted to fire the 45-70. I have a friend in
Auburn, AL who converted one several years ago to 45-70.

John in Reno

oldpink

unread,
Oct 9, 2007, 8:25:41 PM10/9/07
to
Herb Leong wrote:
# In article <feeek7$c41$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
# oldpink <misass...@yahoo.com> wrote:
# #Hornady has recently come out with the LeveRevolution bullet, which uses
# # what they describe as an elastomer tipped spitzer that allows pointed
# #bullets without the danger of a chain fire in the magazine tube.
#
# My wife would be a lot happier if Hornady started selling them as
# components instead of only in loaded rounds.

Yeah, I noticed that they hadn't made them available as bullets only yet.
Maybe they are getting pressure from Marlin to keep them in factory ammo
to encourage sales of .450 Marlin.
If those bullets were available to handloaders, the more knowledgeable
handloaders would load up the .45-70 to meet the MV of the .450, making
the newer cartridge unnecessary.


--
And what exactly is a joke?
.

oldpink

unread,
Oct 9, 2007, 8:25:44 PM10/9/07
to
Thomas Reynolds wrote:
# "oldpink" <misass...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# news:feeek7$c41$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # Thomas Reynolds wrote:
# # # "Natman" <nat_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# # # news:febtp3$9qs$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # # # On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:07:09 +0000 (UTC), "trippin-2-8-trak"

# # # # <hs...@epix.net> wrote:
# # # #
# # # # #Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
# # # # ## ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use
# # the
# # # # ## older cartridge in a bolt action?

# # # # #
# # # # #
# # # # #rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for
# # decades
# # # # now

# # # # #
# # # # #that cartridge has staying power

# # # # #
# # # # #
# # # # Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
# # # # actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
# # # # assured.
# # # You can use *bullets* in bolt actions which would be dangerous in a tube
# # fed
# # # lever action like the Marlin 45-70 which is a possible use for the bolt
# # # action.
# #

# # You are talking about spitzers.
# # Hornady has recently come out with the LeveRevolution bullet, which uses
# # what they describe as an elastomer tipped spitzer that allows pointed
# # bullets without the danger of a chain fire in the magazine tube.
# Spitzers are a good example, but some others are risky too.

Just curious here, but what others are there?
Are you talking about FMJ round noses?


--
And what exactly is a joke?
.

oldpink

unread,
Oct 9, 2007, 8:25:47 PM10/9/07
to
Natman wrote:
# On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:04:33 +0000 (UTC), "Thomas Reynolds"
# <tom.re...@verizon.net> wrote:
#
# #

# #"Natman" <nat_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# #news:febtp3$9qs$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# ## On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:07:09 +0000 (UTC), "trippin-2-8-trak"
# ## <hs...@epix.net> wrote:
# ##
# ## #Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
# ## ## ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
# ## ## older cartridge in a bolt action?

# ## #
# ## #
# ## #rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for decades
# ## now
# ## #

# ## #that cartridge has staying power
# ## #
# ## #
# ## Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
# ## actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
# ## assured.
# #You can use *bullets* in bolt actions which would be dangerous in a tube fed
# #lever action like the Marlin 45-70 which is a possible use for the bolt
# #action.
# That's quite true. Those bullets would still be better off loaded into
# a 450 Marlin than a 45-70 because of the feeding difficulties
# presented when trying to use a rimmed cartridge in a bolt action.

Actually, you mean MOST bolt actions.
The Mosin-Nagant uses the rimmed 7.62x54R.


--
And what exactly is a joke?
.

oldpink

unread,
Oct 9, 2007, 8:25:50 PM10/9/07
to
jadel wrote:
# On Oct 7, 8:31 pm, sta...@prolynx.com wrote:
# # Oct 7, 6:07 am, Bluehawk99 <Bluehaw...@aol.com> wrote:
# # There ARE guys out there, lots of them and
# # probably ones that don't read this list, that actually leave their
# # brass at the range ...
#
# I was at the range the other day and found half a dozen brand new,
# nickel-plated .300 Win mag. cases. Somebody there had money to burn.
# I took them home, and I don't even own a .300 Win Mag.
#
# Given that metal theft has become a serious problem in WV, I'm
# surprised the thieves aren't scrounging the local gun range.

My belief regarding those metal thieves is that the vast majority of
them are meth heads.


--
And what exactly is a joke?
.

Natman

unread,
Oct 10, 2007, 7:14:43 AM10/10/07
to
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 00:25:47 +0000 (UTC), oldpink
<misass...@yahoo.com> wrote:

#Natman wrote:
## On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:04:33 +0000 (UTC), "Thomas Reynolds"
## <tom.re...@verizon.net> wrote:
##
## #
## #"Natman" <nat_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
## #news:febtp3$9qs$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
## ## On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:07:09 +0000 (UTC), "trippin-2-8-trak"


## ## <hs...@epix.net> wrote:
## ##

## ## #Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
## ## ## ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
## ## ## older cartridge in a bolt action?
## ## #
## ## #
## ## #rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for decades
## ## now
## ## #
## ## #that cartridge has staying power
## ## #
## ## #
## ## Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
## ## actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
## ## assured.
## #You can use *bullets* in bolt actions which would be dangerous in a tube fed
## #lever action like the Marlin 45-70 which is a possible use for the bolt
## #action.
## That's quite true. Those bullets would still be better off loaded into
## a 450 Marlin than a 45-70 because of the feeding difficulties
## presented when trying to use a rimmed cartridge in a bolt action.
#
#Actually, you mean MOST bolt actions.
#The Mosin-Nagant uses the rimmed 7.62x54R.


Yes, quite so. It is certainly *possible* to get a bolt action to feed
rimmed cartridges, witness the Lee Enfield, Siamese Mauser and, as
you point out, the Moisin-Nagant.

It's just a lot *easier* to find one that will feed a cartridge like
the 450 Marlin.

trippin-2-8-trak

unread,
Oct 10, 2007, 7:14:41 AM10/10/07
to
yes, it would put a big hole in a deer...but to quote a guy I know who once
hunted deer with a 444 Marlin, he said "it puts a big f-g hole in them, and
ruins too much meat" and he stopped using it

the 45-70 was also popular with fisherman, for shooting sharks and such that
were caught accidentally in nets or on long lines

ps- if you're quoting military cartridges, why leave out the 30-40 Krag, 6mm
Lee Navy, 45 Colt, and 56-50 Spencer from your list...among others...


# Cowboy action shooting and some hunters in the deep woods who don't like
# their deer to run far when hit are the main reasons for its longevity.
# It's also originally a military cartrige, as are the .45 ACP, .45 Colt,
# ..30-06, .308, 9mm, and .223.

Thomas Reynolds

unread,
Oct 10, 2007, 7:14:45 AM10/10/07
to

"oldpink" <misass...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:feh668$hk5$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Thomas Reynolds wrote:
# # "oldpink" <misass...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# # news:feeek7$c41$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # # Thomas Reynolds wrote:
# # # # "Natman" <nat_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# # # # news:febtp3$9qs$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # # # # On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:07:09 +0000 (UTC), "trippin-2-8-trak"

# # # # # <hs...@epix.net> wrote:
# # # # #
# # # # # #Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
# # # # # ## ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to
# use
# # # the
# # # # # ## older cartridge in a bolt action?

# # # # # #
# # # # # #
# # # # # #rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for
# # # decades
# # # # # now

# # # # # #
# # # # # #that cartridge has staying power

# # # # # #
# # # # # #
# # # # # Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for
# *bolt
# # # # # actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
# # # # # assured.
# # # # You can use *bullets* in bolt actions which would be dangerous in a
# tube
# # # fed
# # # # lever action like the Marlin 45-70 which is a possible use for the
# bolt
# # # # action.
# # #
# # # You are talking about spitzers.
# # # Hornady has recently come out with the LeveRevolution bullet, which
# uses
# # # what they describe as an elastomer tipped spitzer that allows pointed
# # # bullets without the danger of a chain fire in the magazine tube.
# # Spitzers are a good example, but some others are risky too.
#
# Just curious here, but what others are there?
# Are you talking about FMJ round noses?
Boat tails (or any other shape which can fire the round in front of it in a
tube during recoil).

cmeek...@gmail.com

unread,
Oct 10, 2007, 7:15:26 AM10/10/07
to
On Oct 6, 6:29 pm, peterweze...@hotmail.com wrote:
> ...

I have see a SMLE done in 45-70

oldpink

unread,
Oct 10, 2007, 9:02:20 AM10/10/07
to
trippin-2-8-trak wrote:
# yes, it would put a big hole in a deer...but to quote a guy I know who once
# hunted deer with a 444 Marlin, he said "it puts a big f-g hole in them, and
# ruins too much meat" and he stopped using it
#
# the 45-70 was also popular with fisherman, for shooting sharks and such that
# were caught accidentally in nets or on long lines
#
# ps- if you're quoting military cartridges, why leave out the 30-40 Krag, 6mm
# Lee Navy, 45 Colt, and 56-50 Spencer from your list...among others...

Yeah, I know I left out the Krag, Lee, and Spencer, but look again on
the Colt.
;-)
btw...random trivia for you...the .220 Swift is the 6mm Lee Navy necked
down to .224.

# # Cowboy action shooting and some hunters in the deep woods who don't like
# # their deer to run far when hit are the main reasons for its longevity.
# # It's also originally a military cartrige, as are the .45 ACP, .45 Colt,
^^^^^^
See?
# # ..30-06, .308, 9mm, and .223.


--
And what exactly is a joke?
.

oldpink

unread,
Oct 10, 2007, 9:02:24 AM10/10/07
to
Thomas Reynolds wrote:
[...]

# # # # You are talking about spitzers.
# # # # Hornady has recently come out with the LeveRevolution bullet, which
# # uses
# # # # what they describe as an elastomer tipped spitzer that allows pointed
# # # # bullets without the danger of a chain fire in the magazine tube.
# # # Spitzers are a good example, but some others are risky too.

# #
# # Just curious here, but what others are there?
# # Are you talking about FMJ round noses?
# Boat tails (or any other shape which can fire the round in front of it in a
# tube during recoil).

Uh, no.
Boattails are no more likely than any other bullet to cause a chain fire.
Boattail refers to the beveled trailing edge on the bullet that is
always covered by the cartridge neck.
I can only assume that you meant "spitzer," that is pointed bullets, but
I already used that term, as you can see here.


--
And what exactly is a joke?
.

oldpink

unread,
Oct 10, 2007, 9:02:28 AM10/10/07
to
Natman wrote:
[...]

# #Actually, you mean MOST bolt actions.
# #The Mosin-Nagant uses the rimmed 7.62x54R.
#
#
# Yes, quite so. It is certainly *possible* to get a bolt action to feed
# rimmed cartridges, witness the Lee Enfield, Siamese Mauser and, as
# you point out, the Moisin-Nagant.
#
# It's just a lot *easier* to find one that will feed a cartridge like
# the 450 Marlin.

No argument there.
I think those who have their heart set on the most powerful action for
the .45-70 need look no further than the Ruger No. 3 and No. 1, both of
which have at one time or another been available in that caliber.
The No. 1 is also particularly handsome.


--
And what exactly is a joke?
.

Thomas Reynolds

unread,
Oct 10, 2007, 2:01:28 PM10/10/07
to

Never saw a boat tail wad cutter, but I have seen spitzers which were not
boat tails... Jeeze, end of thread for me.

Chris Morton

unread,
Oct 10, 2007, 2:01:40 PM10/10/07
to
In article <feiih4$7c2$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, oldpink says...

#No argument there.
#I think those who have their heart set on the most powerful action for
#the .45-70 need look no further than the Ruger No. 3 and No. 1, both of
#which have at one time or another been available in that caliber.
#The No. 1 is also particularly handsome.

There's also H&R: http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/buffalo.aspx

Their guns have a sort of simple charm.


--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with
210lb. rapists.

oldpink

unread,
Oct 10, 2007, 10:28:24 PM10/10/07
to
Chris Morton wrote:
# In article <feiih4$7c2$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, oldpink says...
#
# #No argument there.
# #I think those who have their heart set on the most powerful action for
# #the .45-70 need look no further than the Ruger No. 3 and No. 1, both of
# #which have at one time or another been available in that caliber.
# #The No. 1 is also particularly handsome.
#
# There's also H&R: http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/buffalo.aspx
#
# Their guns have a sort of simple charm.

Plua, they don't cost an arm and a leg.
Good point.


--
And what exactly is a joke?
.

oldpink

unread,
Oct 10, 2007, 10:28:25 PM10/10/07
to
Thomas Reynolds wrote:
# Never saw a boat tail wad cutter, but I have seen spitzers which were not
# boat tails... Jeeze, end of thread for me.

I wasn't trying to be condescending, as it looked as if you made a typo.
I don't know if they exist, but I see no reason that they couldn't make
round noses boattailed, to partially overcome their less aerodynamic shape.
My point was that boattails have nothing at all to do with suitability
for use in tubular magazines, as the nose is what causes the chain fire,
not the base.


--
And what exactly is a joke?
.

Doug T

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 6:12:06 AM10/11/07
to
oldpink wrote:
# Thomas Reynolds wrote:
# # Never saw a boat tail wad cutter, but I have seen spitzers which were not
# # boat tails... Jeeze, end of thread for me.
#
# I wasn't trying to be condescending, as it looked as if you made a typo.
# I don't know if they exist, but I see no reason that they couldn't make
# round noses boattailed, to partially overcome their less aerodynamic shape.
# My point was that boattails have nothing at all to do with suitability
# for use in tubular magazines, as the nose is what causes the chain fire,
# not the base.

Nosler 170 gr. 30 cal. Flat nose boattail
Nosler 150 gr. 30 cal. Flat nose boattail
Nosler 120 gr. 7mm Flat nose boattail
Nosler 45 gr. 22 cal. round nose boattail
Hornady 147 gr. 9mm RN and HP boattail
Lyman 147 gr. 9mm Flat nose boattail

Bullets I could find around my house.

Doug T

Mikko Nahkola

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 6:12:09 AM10/11/07
to
oldpink kirjoitti:
# Thomas Reynolds wrote:
# # Never saw a boat tail wad cutter, but I have seen spitzers which were not
# # boat tails... Jeeze, end of thread for me.
#
# I wasn't trying to be condescending, as it looked as if you made a typo.
# I don't know if they exist, but I see no reason that they couldn't make
# round noses boattailed, to partially overcome their less aerodynamic shape.

Oh, they _are_ making those. Just turn that spitzer around.

This used to be done somewhat with surplus military ball in various
WWI/WWII-era military calibers - just pull the bullet and put it back in
backwards, to make expanding ammo for hunting.

That practice has mostly ended after purpose-made expanding bullets
became widely available and sufficiently affordable. There are some
niche specialties where it still happens, though - mostly with subsonic
loads.

And the .45-70 is somewhat popular as a subsonic hunting cartridge, so
this is still on topic too! (Hard to get sufficient energy for the legal
requirements with anything smaller, at subsonic velocities.)

jadel

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 7:58:06 PM10/11/07
to

Either that or oxycodone addicts. Several Darwin Awards are
available for the thieves who tried to steal live high voltage wires.
I think two or three have managed to eliminate themselves that way
this year.

J. Del Col

Offbreed

unread,
Oct 11, 2007, 7:58:08 PM10/11/07
to
Thanks for the reminder. The anti hunters have been able to indoctrinate
the local kids into not hunting much any more and ammo variety is
dropping off. (I'm on an island and federal laws govern what is shipped
here commercially.) Bullets suited for sub sonic work is getting hard to
find.

trippin-2-8-trak

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 7:46:22 AM10/12/07
to
#
# Yeah, I know I left out the Krag, Lee, and Spencer, but look again on
# the Colt.
# ;-)
# btw...random trivia for you...the .220 Swift is the 6mm Lee Navy necked
# down to .224.


methinks you need to brush up on your cartridge literature ??- I don't know
what you're inferring with the Colt remark, it was the standard Army sidearm
cartridge for 4 years during the 1800's, and in the Phillipines in 1902-
furthermore, I was well aware of the 220 Swift/6MM Lee relationship- that's
why I mentioned it in the first place, remember ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45_Colt

The .45 Colt cartridge (known commonly as the .45 Long Colt) was developed
by the US Army at Frankford Arsenal in 1872 as an improvement of the British
.476 Eley to replace the standard issue Smith and Wesson .44 round in the
famous Colt Single Action Army, often known as the Peacemaker single action
revolver. The US Army adopted the cartridge in 1873 and it remained in use
until 1877 when the army went to the M1877 ball revolver load. The new round
was shorter than the original in case length and used a reduced powder
charge of approximately 30 grains (2 g) of black powder vs the 40 grains (3
g) in the original. All Colt army revolvers were still chambered to fit the
longer .45 cartridge case. In 1892 it was replaced by the .38 Long Colt. The
US Army briefly reintroduced the .45 Colt in 1902 for use in the
Philippines, but it was made obsolete by new automatic pistols firing .45
ACP.

Bluehawk99

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 10:29:36 AM10/12/07
to
"And the .45-70 is somewhat popular as a subsonic hunting
cartridge,...etc."

Subsonic??
A 300 grain bullet @ 1,800fps x .6818 = 1,227 MPH...thats well over
Mach1 and well on it's way to Mach2.
I wouldn't consider that subsonic...would you??
If you load it well under that to make it subsonic you might as well
hunt with a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt.
Just my opinion :o)

oldpink

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 10:29:43 AM10/12/07
to
trippin-2-8-trak wrote:
# #

# # Yeah, I know I left out the Krag, Lee, and Spencer, but look again on
# # the Colt.
# # ;-)
# # btw...random trivia for you...the .220 Swift is the 6mm Lee Navy necked
# # down to .224.
#
#
# methinks you need to brush up on your cartridge literature ??- I don't know
# what you're inferring with the Colt remark, it was the standard Army sidearm
# cartridge for 4 years during the 1800's, and in the Phillipines in 1902-
# furthermore, I was well aware of the 220 Swift/6MM Lee relationship- that's
# why I mentioned it in the first place, remember ?

*sigh*
You didn't read the rest of my post, did you?
Here is my one key sentence again, just so you know.

---Begin Text---


It's also originally a military cartrige, as are the .45 ACP, .45 Colt,

...30-06, .308, 9mm, and .223.
---End Text---

See what I mean now?
;-)
[historical reference to .45 Colt]

oldpink

unread,
Oct 12, 2007, 10:29:45 AM10/12/07
to
jadel wrote:
# Either that or oxycodone addicts. Several Darwin Awards are
# available for the thieves who tried to steal live high voltage wires.
# I think two or three have managed to eliminate themselves that way
# this year.

And all for the better.
It would be nice to have the entire OC addict contigent all join hands,
then attempt to steal a high tension wire.

oldpink

unread,
Oct 13, 2007, 5:57:08 AM10/13/07
to
Bluehawk99 wrote:
# "And the .45-70 is somewhat popular as a subsonic hunting
# cartridge,...etc."
#
# Subsonic??
# A 300 grain bullet @ 1,800fps x .6818 = 1,227 MPH...thats well over
# Mach1 and well on it's way to Mach2.
# I wouldn't consider that subsonic...would you??
# If you load it well under that to make it subsonic you might as well
# hunt with a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt.
# Just my opinion :o)

Quite true.
Also, if you move up to handloads deemed safe in the Marlin 1895, you
are above 2,000fps.
Use the loads for the Ruger No. 3 or No. 1, and you are faster still,
right on the heels of the .458 Winchester Magnum.


--
And what exactly is a joke?
.

trippin-2-8-trak

unread,
Oct 13, 2007, 2:40:48 PM10/13/07
to
# It's also originally a military cartrige, as are the .45 ACP, .45 Colt,
# ...30-06, .308, 9mm, and .223.


well I see we were in agreement from the start, on the 45 Colt

I think it's one helluva cartridge- esp. considering how old it is

trippin-2-8-trak

unread,
Oct 13, 2007, 2:40:52 PM10/13/07
to
# Quite true.
# Also, if you move up to handloads deemed safe in the Marlin 1895, you
# are above 2,000fps.
# Use the loads for the Ruger No. 3 or No. 1, and you are faster still,
# right on the heels of the .458 Winchester Magnum.


you bring up good points- and IMHO for brush/woods hunting, plinking, target
shooting, 2000 fps with a large caliber bullet, is adequate

knockdown power for deer-sized game (i.e. the 45 Colt repro lever guns), big
time stopping power for personal/home defense (i.e. the 45 Colt pistol), and
the authority of putting a big hole in the target paper

from experience, I got some sort of strange satisfaction, being able to see
the 12 gauge slug holes in the paper target at 50 yards, without having to
walk up and see where it hit- saves some leg time (grin)

oldpink

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 9:39:53 AM10/14/07
to
trippin-2-8-trak wrote:
# # It's also originally a military cartrige, as are the .45 ACP, .45 Colt,
# # ...30-06, .308, 9mm, and .223.
#
#
# well I see we were in agreement from the start, on the 45 Colt
#
# I think it's one helluva cartridge- esp. considering how old it is

Absolutely
I have a 7-1/2" barreled Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt, and it is just
terrific.
I can stick to factory load equivalent loads with Unique powder for
casual shooting, then use the option of taking advantage of the
Blackhawk's strength and step it up to near .44 Mangum levels with
generous doses of W296.
I installed a set of Pachmayr Presentation grips on it to make it more
handfilling, though.
The factory walnut stocks are better suited for averaged sized shooters.
Those Pachmayr grips are neoprene, thus helping absorb the recoil of the
powerhouse loads.
A great gun and a great cartridge.


--
And what exactly is a joke?
.

oldpink

unread,
Oct 14, 2007, 9:39:55 AM10/14/07
to
trippin-2-8-trak wrote:
# # Quite true.
# # Also, if you move up to handloads deemed safe in the Marlin 1895, you
# # are above 2,000fps.
# # Use the loads for the Ruger No. 3 or No. 1, and you are faster still,
# # right on the heels of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
#
#
# you bring up good points- and IMHO for brush/woods hunting, plinking, target
# shooting, 2000 fps with a large caliber bullet, is adequate
#
# knockdown power for deer-sized game (i.e. the 45 Colt repro lever guns), big
# time stopping power for personal/home defense (i.e. the 45 Colt pistol), and
# the authority of putting a big hole in the target paper
#
# from experience, I got some sort of strange satisfaction, being able to see
# the 12 gauge slug holes in the paper target at 50 yards, without having to
# walk up and see where it hit- saves some leg time (grin)

You ought to check out the Shoot-n-C targets.
Those make it a snap to even guesstimate group size with a decent scope
at 100 yards, and to do the same at 25.
Once you start using them, you don't want to go back to ordinary
targets, though.


--
And what exactly is a joke?
.

Mikko Nahkola

unread,
Oct 15, 2007, 10:27:38 PM10/15/07
to
Bluehawk99 kirjoitti:

# "And the .45-70 is somewhat popular as a subsonic hunting
# cartridge,...etc."
#
# Subsonic??
# A 300 grain bullet @ 1,800fps x .6818 = 1,227 MPH...thats well over
# Mach1 and well on it's way to Mach2.
# I wouldn't consider that subsonic...would you??
# If you load it well under that to make it subsonic you might as well
# hunt with a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt.

How fast can a Ruger Blackhawk push a 600 grain bullet? Oh, and hunting
with a handgun isn't allowed in this country anyway, and the .45-70 is
easier to find a rifle for. And doesn't lose the option of using
full-speed loads as well.

No, I don't do that stuff myself. I just report what I see. (Don't have
any .45 myself, either.)

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages