S+W Model 41 ammo question
Brian Coleman
I've just purchased a Smith and Wesson Model 41 .22 LR target pistol with a 7"
barrel. I've put around 600 rounds through it so far and found it to be very
accurate. However, it tends to jam far too frequently. I've tried 4 different
kinds of ammo with the following results (appox. per 50 rounds):
CCI Mini-Mags Standard Vel.: 3 jams 0 misfires
Winchester Super-X High Vel.: 2 jams 1 misfires
Remmington .22 Target Std Vel.: 1 jams 1 misfires
Winchester Super-X T22 Std Vel: 1 jams 0 misfires
All of the jams are the same - after firing, the spent case is extracted, but
not ejected before the next bullet starts to load. The spent case gets caught
between the roof of the slide and the top of the next shell being loaded. I'm
calling it a misfire when the firing pin hits the shell, but the shell doesn't
fire.
I've tried to call Smith and Wesson on this, but they are currently closed for
vacation.
In the mean time, can anyone out there suggest something for me to try?
a different kind of ammo? some smith-work?
I'm hoping this problem is easily resolved, other than the jamming, the pistol
is
a joy to shoot.
advTHANKSance,
Brian
Doug White
Keywords:
In article <5s0o1t$j...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, br...@crosslink.net (Brian Coleman) wrote:
#I've just purchased a Smith and Wesson Model 41 .22 LR target pistol with a 7"
#barrel. I've put around 600 rounds through it so far and found it to be very
#accurate. However, it tends to jam far too frequently. I've tried 4 different
#kinds of ammo with the following results (appox. per 50 rounds):
#
#CCI Mini-Mags Standard Vel.: 3 jams 0 misfires
#Winchester Super-X High Vel.: 2 jams 1 misfires
#Remmington .22 Target Std Vel.: 1 jams 1 misfires
#Winchester Super-X T22 Std Vel: 1 jams 0 misfires
#
#All of the jams are the same - after firing, the spent case is extracted, but
#not ejected before the next bullet starts to load. The spent case gets caught
#between the roof of the slide and the top of the next shell being loaded. I'm
#calling it a misfire when the firing pin hits the shell, but the shell doesn't
#fire.
#
#I've tried to call Smith and Wesson on this, but they are currently closed for
#vacation.
#
#In the mean time, can anyone out there suggest something for me to try?
#a different kind of ammo? some smith-work?
#
#I'm hoping this problem is easily resolved, other than the jamming, the pistol
#is
#a joy to shoot.
The Model 41 was originally developed for Remington Standard (Target)
velocity ammo, which tended to have a bit more punch than some of the
other target ammo. Unfortunately, that was 40 years ago, and the current
Remington ammo I have tried was so bad I will never buy any again.
I bought a Model 41 about 17 years ago, and it would NEVER function
reliably on anything but high velocity ammo. I polished and lubed
everything in sight, and it still wouldn't work right. I finally sold it
and got a High Standard, which will eat anything. Since then, I've heard
that you can get lighter recoil springs for the 41, which might help.
Another problem that will agravate this situation is 'limp wristing'. We
use Model 41's at MIT for pistol classes, and mostly use high velocity
ammo. This is partly because it tends to work the action more reliably,
and partly because it's usually cheaper. Even with the high velocity
stuff, if new students shoot with a relaxed wrist and elbow, it will soak
up enough of the recoil that the action will jam exactly as you describe.
Try locking your wrist and elbow, and see if that helps.
Good luck.
Doug White
JKilpat971
I have a M41 and found Federals ammo to work well in my gun. I have had
one jam usually 1 per brick and no misfires out of 4000 rounds. leading
isn't a problem either.
great choice on your gun
happy shooting
JUAN VASQUEZ
I bough my Model 41 one year ago and had the same exact problem through
the first 1000 rounds. After which I decided to put high velocity ammo
on it. 1000 rounds later I went back to the CCI Green Tag standard
velocity. Ever since then I haven't had a problem.
One thing I can say is that CCI is very innacurate in this gun. I am now
using winchester standard vel. Excellent. This gun is a target high
precision gun (hence the $600 price tag) and should only be shot with
standard vel.
Any way, excellent choice of gun, and I wouldn't change it for anything.
Regards,
Juan
Joe Chew
Mine essentially never *jams*, but certain brands of ammo give me so
many click-no-bangs that the range officer is always looking at me when
he asks if anybody has alibis.
Remington's so-called "target" ammo is the only stuff I'd call utterly
reliable in this gun. Unfortunately, as others have noted, it doesn't
exactly give you the groups of the gods. It also gives enough more
muzzle flip to be annoying (by precision mousegunning standards) in
rapid fire.
CCI Green Tag is accurate but doesn't go off reliably (CCI has a
reputation for "hard" priming all up and down their product line).
Federal Gold Medal Match does alright, but at $12 a box of 50 it ought
to whistle Dixie on the way out. Some really low-powered ammo like Eley
Subsonic won't cycle the action.
I've settled on Fiocchi Standard Pistol, which a local store carries, as
a good combination of reliability, accuracy, and wallet friendliness. I
also keep a box of Remington in my gun bag so's to salvage the match in
case gun crud or something makes the problem noticeably worse.
I love the feel and the accuracy of the M41, but sometimes wax nostalgic
for my omnivorous old Model 422. Someone who isn't competing seriously
should take a long hard look at their new 22A , reviewed very kindly in
_American Rifleman_ a few months ago and much cheaper than the
now-discontinued M41.
Have fun and shoot safely,
--Joe
http://www.earthlink.net/~jtchew
KenWicks
#Someone who isn't competing seriously
#should take a long hard look at their new 22A , reviewed very kindly in
#_American Rifleman_ a few months ago and much cheaper than the
#now-discontinued M41.
I don't believe this to be true. The article in the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN may
have been misleading in this regard. It had made mention that the new
M-22A was a very good, accurate, and cheaper alternative to the much more
pricier M-41. It was feared that this fact was going to cause S&W to
discontinue the M-41 due to lack of interest. As of this posting I do not
believe this to have happened. If anyone knows different please advise.
Thanks, Ken
Ray C.
Joe Chew wrote:
#
I'd like to comment on my experiences so that others can get a feel
for the variable nature of target pistols. ALso, this mail points
out how two people's experiences can be widely varied. This
illustrates how new target shooters are cautioned not to take too
much credence to the occasional posts with subject lines like:
"My High Standard Sucks because it won't feed Brand X ammo" or
"Model 41's Stink because I had three feed failures in a row"
[Joe, I've never communicated with your before... Just so you know,
in no way am I being critical of you or the examples you cite. Ray]
# Mine essentially never *jams*, but certain brands of ammo give me so
# many click-no-bangs that the range officer is always looking at me when
# he asks if anybody has alibis.
I'll second this. In 4 or 5 years, I can count on one hand the number
of "jams" my 41 has had. I don't believe the gun has ever failed to
feed. The few "jams" are therefore extraction/ejection failures.
#
# Remington's so-called "target" ammo is the only stuff I'd call utterly
# reliable in this gun. Unfortunately, as others have noted, it doesn't
# exactly give you the groups of the gods. It also gives enough more
# muzzle flip to be annoying (by precision mousegunning standards) in
# rapid fire.
Here, and in the next paragraph is where our experiences differ. I
find Remington's "target" ammo to misfire at an unusually high rate.
When it does fire, it produces good accuracy. By the way, muzzle
flip and recoil can be dittled-with by changing the recoil spring.
Champion's Choice (and other places I'm sure) sells spring tune-up
kits for about 10 bucks.
When I shoot standard velocity ammo, I use a 6 or 6 1/2 lb spring.
For high velocity ammo the 7 lb spring is used.
#
# CCI Green Tag is accurate but doesn't go off reliably (CCI has a
# reputation for "hard" priming all up and down their product line).
I have no problems with Green tag but, for 8 bucks a box, it should be
able to whistle Dixie almost as good as Eley. I've had very good luck
with CCI Std velocity; actually, I find it to be more accurate than
Green Tag.
# Federal Gold Medal Match does alright, but at $12 a box of 50 it ought
# to whistle Dixie on the way out. Some really low-powered ammo like Eley
# Subsonic won't cycle the action.
Not only does Eley Subsonic not cycle the action, the head case
puffs-out.
It's kinda funny lookin' all puffed-out like that! The Eley Black Box
and
Tenex shoot very well in the gun but, these two ammos taught Subsonic
_how_
to whistle Dixie.
#
# I've settled on Fiocchi Standard Pistol, which a local store carries, as
# a good combination of reliability, accuracy, and wallet friendliness.
None of the Fiocchi ammos produce consistent groups for me. Here we
have
a classic case where two guns of the same model behave differently with
the same ammo. [Gee Joe -wonder what's wrong with your gun... (just
kiddin')].
There are two possible explanations for this:
A) Me and Joe are (obviously) two different people. We hold the gun
differently and therefore accuracy is effected.
B) Some minor difference in the guns (probably the barrel chamber or
rifling)
accounts for discrepancy. [I shoot a 7 3/8" bbl these days. Joe,
what's yours?]
A few parting words...
Joe, try the Federal Classic Target stuff. At ~ $2.00 / 50 it's a great
buy. When I can get it, I buy alot of it. It's some of my favorite
stuff
(when I have any to shoot).
...
This past winter season, I shot Master in the USRA bullseye league. I
did it with Federal high-velocity -the kind Wal-Mart sells in cardboard
boxes of 550 for $15.00. I didn't do this intentionally... I "stupidly"
forgot to stock-up my shooting bag and, when I got to the first match
all I had was my son's Wal-Mart stuff on hand. You know that feeling
you get when you pat your backside and realize your wallet is missing?
-That's kinda how it felt while rifling through my shooting supplies.
Needless to say, the ammo did it's job and I might add, it never
misfired
throught out the whole 10 match season. Do I plan to continue using
this stuff??? -Maybee!
# I
# also keep a box of Remington in my gun bag so's to salvage the match in
# case gun crud or something makes the problem noticeably worse.
#
# I love the feel and the accuracy of the M41, but sometimes wax nostalgic
# for my omnivorous old Model 422. Someone who isn't competing seriously
# should take a long hard look at their new 22A , reviewed very kindly in
# _American Rifleman_ a few months ago and much cheaper than the
# now-discontinued M41.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WHAT? DISCONTINUED? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDIN ME! -SAY IT AIN'T SO!
Why in the world would they discontinue that gun? I'm shocked!
-Downright so.
Oh well (trying desperately to regain my composure).
Regards and good shooting.
Ray C.
#
# Have fun and shoot safely,
# --Joe
# http://www.earthlink.net/~jtchew
BJamesjr
#made mention that the new
#M-22A was a very good, accurate, and cheaper alternative to the much
more
#pricier M-41. It was feared that this fact was going to cause S&W to
#discontinue the M-41 due to lack of interest.
Their latest catalog contains both the M-22 and the M-41.
KenWicks
##Someone who isn't competing seriously
##should take a long hard look at their new 22A , reviewed very kindly in
##_American Rifleman_ a few months ago and much cheaper than the
##now-discontinued M41.
After reading the original posting and answering it, I decided to dig
through my collection of gun magizines. I had recalled a recent article
comparing various .22 autoloading handguns. Tests were done to determine
the accuracy of these pistols using different types of ammo. The results
were published in the article. Lo and behold, I came across the August
1997 issue of SHOOTING TIMES. Starting on page 36 they do a comparison of
seven popular guns that are frequently mentioned on these chat boards.
The Smith & Wesson portion of the article begins on page 41 and this is
from where I paraphrase for my earlier message to this posting. I would
suggest that anyone interested in this topic get ahold of the magazine on
read the article. It is very informative.
Chuck & Jo Falls
On 10 Aug 1997 18:59:02 -0400, "Ray C." <rk...@prodigy.net> wrote:
## I love the feel and the accuracy of the M41, but sometimes wax nostalgic
## for my omnivorous old Model 422. Someone who isn't competing seriously
## should take a long hard look at their new 22A , reviewed very kindly in
## _American Rifleman_ a few months ago and much cheaper than the
## now-discontinued M41.
# ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#
#WHAT? DISCONTINUED? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDIN ME! -SAY IT AIN'T SO!
#
#Why in the world would they discontinue that gun? I'm shocked!
#-Downright so.
#
I heard the same thing from my local shop when looking to buy one of
the new Smith .22's. He said that the new style would be replacing
*all* of the .22's in the S&W lineup. I asked if he meant all
*except* the .41. He didn't know what a Model 41 was, but his
distributor told him *all* and he was sure it was so. He was positive
that it did, in fact, include the .41.
I had a bad feeling when I left (hey, they stopped making the 52
didn't they?), but my local dealer is a moron, so...
I called S&W as soon as I got home,... They assured me that they were
NOT stopping production of the .41. The new series of .22's would be
replacing the 2206/422 .22's, but the .41 was still in production.
Chuck
AMU Pistol Marksmanship Guide at
http://www.eagnet.com/edipage/user/jcandjfls/usamupmg.htm
Joe Chew
# Why in the world would they discontinue that gun? I'm shocked!
Guess they didn't. My bad.
I got my quote-unquote information from a couple of gun dealers who'd
told me, a year or two back, "I can't get it anymore and I think
they've stopped making it," combined with Conventional Wisdom, whereas
www.smith-wesson.com shows it right this very minute...
I wouldn't be surprised, though, if some people at the company will be
taking a hard look at the acceptance, performance, and improvability of
the new "Sport Series." It looks like quite a nice pistol that costs
somewhere between a third and a half as much to make as the M41, having
been designed to take advantage of the sophisticated manufacturing
technology in which S&W has invested heavily in recent years.
I should add that the very few new M41's and barrel sets in Bay Area
display cases seem to have been there awhile, whereas people are
snapping up the nicer Mark II's and Buckmarks, some High Standard
clones, and (if you prefer "international" orthopedics) the entry-level
Benelli MP95 -- all of which are noticeably to quite substantially
cheaper. The M41 is a lovely gun with a scary price tag and you have to
like it a lot to pay that premium. A friend of mine who started in
bullseye by borrowing my M41 just bought a 22S for precisely that
reason, and I look forward to trying it out.
# I'd like to comment on my experiences so that others can get a feel
# for the variable nature of target pistols.
Yaboy. Fortunately, the process of finding out how best to feed and
operate an unfamiliar target pistol is fun in its own right!
With mixed joy and chagrin,
--Joe
BJamesjr
#The M41 is a lovely gun with a scary price tag
I love it! Worth every penny!
Alan Calder
Joe Chew wrote:
#
# # Why in the world would they discontinue that gun? I'm shocked!
#
# Guess they didn't. My bad.
#
# I got my quote-unquote information from a couple of gun dealers who'd
# told me, a year or two back, "I can't get it anymore and I think
# they've stopped making it," combined with Conventional Wisdom, whereas
# www.smith-wesson.com shows it right this very minute...
#
# I wouldn't be surprised, though, if some people at the company will be
# taking a hard look at the acceptance, performance, and improvability of
# the new "Sport Series." It looks like quite a nice pistol that costs
# somewhere between a third and a half as much to make as the M41, having
# been designed to take advantage of the sophisticated manufacturing
# technology in which S&W has invested heavily in recent years.
#
# I should add that the very few new M41's and barrel sets in Bay Area
# display cases seem to have been there awhile, whereas people are
# snapping up the nicer Mark II's and Buckmarks, some High Standard
# clones, and (if you prefer "international" orthopedics) the entry-level
# Benelli MP95 -- all of which are noticeably to quite substantially
# cheaper. The M41 is a lovely gun with a scary price tag and you have to
# like it a lot to pay that premium. A friend of mine who started in
# bullseye by borrowing my M41 just bought a 22S for precisely that
# reason, and I look forward to trying it out.
#
# # I'd like to comment on my experiences so that others can get a feel
# # for the variable nature of target pistols.
#
# Yaboy. Fortunately, the process of finding out how best to feed and
# operate an unfamiliar target pistol is fun in its own right!
#
# With mixed joy and chagrin,
# --Joe
I'll add my 0.02- I purchased a M-41 last year, and the gun shop
owner said he might have trouble getting one because he was under
the impression that the m-41 was no longer manufactured by
the normal means at S&W. Instead, m-41's are manufactured by
a custom or special parts division. Upon investigating getting
one for me, the shop owner said that apparently this was no longer
the case, and that they are manufacturing them just like any
other S&W. So perhaps they did change something for a while,
but certainly they did not discontinue production of m-41's.
Or perhaps he was misinformed and nothing has changed.
I should add that I love shooting my 41, and while it is
perhaps the most expensive firearm I have ever purchased,
I am sure it is the best firearm purchase I have ever
made because I enjoy it so much and shoot it much more
frequently that my other firearms. I have not tried the
new "sport series" yet, but I would be surprised if
those could be as much of a joy to shoot as my 41.
Alan
Ken Doty
br...@crosslink.net (Brian Coleman) wrote:
#I've just purchased a Smith and Wesson Model 41 .22 LR target pistol with a 7"
#barrel. I've put around 600 rounds through it so far and found it to be very
#accurate. However, it tends to jam far too frequently. I've tried 4 different
#kinds of ammo with the following results (appox. per 50 rounds):
#CCI Mini-Mags Standard Vel.: 3 jams 0 misfires
#Winchester Super-X High Vel.: 2 jams 1 misfires
#Remmington .22 Target Std Vel.: 1 jams 1 misfires
#Winchester Super-X T22 Std Vel: 1 jams 0 misfires
#All of the jams are the same - after firing, the spent case is extracted, but
#not ejected before the next bullet starts to load. The spent case gets caught
#between the roof of the slide and the top of the next shell being loaded. I'm
#calling it a misfire when the firing pin hits the shell, but the shell doesn't
#fire.
#I've tried to call Smith and Wesson on this, but they are currently closed for
#vacation.
#In the mean time, can anyone out there suggest something for me to try?
#a different kind of ammo? some smith-work?
#I'm hoping this problem is easily resolved, other than the jamming, the pistol
#is
#a joy to shoot.
#advTHANKSance,
# Brian
You too?!
OK, you've got the same problem I've been working through. I started
experiencing the same problems at about 8,000 rounds. You have to
release the magazine, then pry out the empty round and discard the
shaved round deformed by entering the chamber.
Like you, I've experimented with different standard velocity ammo.
It will experience the same jam as you described with Rem, WinT22, PMC
and Fed 711. It works fine with Rem high velocity hollow points.
I called S&W at the factory and was told to try using CCI std velocity
("in the blue box") which is what they use at the factory. If that
didn't work, they suggested returning it. Unfortunately that limits
me to one ammo which may not be the most accurate in the firearm.
Sure enough, it liked that CCI; (hotter?).
I then went after lubricants. I switched from Breakfree and
experimented with Rem Oil and Browning oil. It likes Browning oil
better but still jams once 5 in 70 rounds with Win T22 and 2 in 420
rounds of Rem target ammo.
Mine will jam if it is in a Ransom Rest so its not a limp wrist
problem.
Suggestions:
Examine your extractor. Go to the range and manually cycle rounds
through. I noticed mine won't always extract. However, even if it
won't extract, firing the round will result in extraction.
Call S&W at 1 800 826 5481, you can talk with someone beyond 5pm EST.
When I called a second time, I told him the extractor appeared to be
worn which he didn't find objectionable.(?!) He said since it is a
blowback design it would eject a round which the extractor would't
extract. He sending two recoil springs and suggested CCI std velocity.
Good luck,