Empire Arms WARNING... Stay away from James Hay!!!
Dennis J. Kroh
Well, it had to happen sometime... my VERY FIRST unhappy customer (and a
very vocal and threatening one too)! {8^(}
However, this attack on myself and Empire Arms are totally unjustified.
I indeed sold him a Swede M-38 rifle with a 6.49/0 bore, 100% bluing,
slightly damaged stock and that is what he received.
He sent me a Postal money-order via express-mail on a Thursday, which
arrived Friday after 1:00 PM, which is when we checked our box. Since
the P.O. is not open on Saturday, I didn't receive his payment until
Monday morning, at which time I got the post-office to REFUND his
Express-mail fees (it was promised to arrive by Noon on Friday and did
not). That was awfully nice of me. :-)
Mr. Hay wants it sent 2nd day air and includes the amount I had
calculated after guessing what the weight would be. After packing the
well-wrapped rifle and accessories the package actually weighed quite a
bit more, but I absorbed the difference in shipping costs. Also very
nice of me. :-)
Mr. Hay receives rifle and calls a few days later and claims that he
doesn't like the wood (his actual words were "that's the worst wood I
have ever seen"). I offer him a REFUND, but what he really wants is for
me to send him another, better rifle and then he will send me back the
worst of the two (all at my expense, of course).
Again, I offer him a REFUND on the rifle's return, and am reluctant to
sell him another due to his attitude.
#(he claims to have personally selected the very best from SAMCO's warehouse).
This is absolutely true, however it doesn't stop there. It takes an
entire day or more to drive the 280 miles to SAMCO and back. I then
personally clean and inspect every rifle for headspace and
functionality, take it to the range and sight it in, and clean them once
more (something that virtually no other dealer does). My higher pricing
is therefore justified IMHO.
# The following letter to Empire Arms (and his reply) became necessary after
# two phone conversations in which Mr. Kroh denied ever making the claims that
# convinced me to buy from him.
Were those claims in writing? Did Mr. Hay record that conversation?
Anyone who has ever spoken to me on the telephone or communicated via
e-mail knows I do not misrepresent things (what would be the point)?
Life is too damned short! I believe Mr. Hays' memory may be playing
tricks on him.
#My demand for all out of pocket costs stem from the fact
# that Mr. Kroh lied to me (check his ad or I can e-mail you a copy of his web
# page) and I should not lose money due to his lies.
I deny having lied to Mr. Hay. I have offered him a REFUND of the cost
of the rifle, less shipping (which is customary and legal). I am not
responsible for the Express mail letter he sent (which he should have
been reimbursed for anyway by the post-office) or the 2nd day air fee he
decided to pay (some of which I absorbed due to my faulty calculation on
exactly what it would cost), or whatever his FFL charged him.
Basically, he wants me to EAT $55 because we have a difference of
opinion... I do not believe I am obligated to pay this.
#
# Perhaps some of you have had okay experiences with this guy but this person
# lied to and cheated me and I feel that anyone deals with him may be treated
# the same way.
Lied and cheated??? That sounds like slander, Mr. Hay. Again, I am
offering you a REFUND!!!
#
# By the way, if any of you have this problem with any mail-order outfit, the
# post office has a form (form 8165) that will initiate an investigation for
# mail fraud as long as ANY part of the transaction was conducted through the
# mail. I sent my postal money order via U.S.P. Express mail and thus have
# this recourse (and shall use it).
What fraud? He ordered a rifle from me, he actually got the rifle in
the briefest amount of time possible, he doesn't like it and I offer a
REFUND! How does that in any way translate to fraud? Am I missing
something here???
# If anyone else has had a like experience with this guy, please e-mail me the
# particulars to be included with my complaints that I will be filing.
Well, that certainly isn't going to happen {8^)}, as I have had (until
now) nothing but satisfied customers (with many testimonials to prove
it). This is my first dissatisfied customer in many hundreds of
transactions... I believe Mr. Hay is entirely out of line.
<snip>
# #You told me you had some M38's of even better quality (than what you
# advertised) for $25 more ($275) that >were close to unissued condition.
I never said anything about unissued condition. All M-38 rifles were
issued and utilized for over 50 years by the Swedish Home Guard and were
subject to periodic inspections and (if needed) arsenal refurbishment.
If this rifle was refurbished... I didn't do it and didn't notice it.
# #The metal was supposed to be near 100% and the stock would have (at most) a
# few dings from being >palletized during shipment.
Bumps and bruises is more like how I described the stock. The metal was
indeed near 100% bluing.
#All numbers were supposed to match.
I do have rifles with all-matching numbers, but most available M-38's
have had minor parts replaced (likely for good reason). I concentrate on
the bolt (and all parts in the bolt) matching the receiver. I do not
remember stating that this particular rifle was all-matching.
#You stated that you hand pick all your >Swedes at the importer's
# warehouse and get the best available and that there would be no disappointments.
That is all true, and there have not been any until now. {8^(}
# #
# #I was invoiced for:
# #
# #Husqvarna M-38 100% metal, 6.49/0 bore, excellent wood.
# #
# #What I received was not as promised. A list follows.
# #
# #1. Metal was touched up in multiple places and doesn't come close to
# matching the original finish.
Possibly done at Swedish arsenals... certainly not by me (I don't even
own any bluing equipment).
# #2. The only matching numbers were on the bolt and receiver. Butt plate,
# stock and other pieces are not proper.
In order to see the stock number the metal must be taken off... which I
usually do not do... so I had no way of knowing if the wood matched or
not. Usually it does not matter. If the Swedes did it, then it was
proper.
# #3. The mis-numbered butt plate has been ground, does not fit the stock
# #and the attaching screw will not hold onto the stripped out screw hole in
# the butt stock.
I know nothing of this. Why would I (or you for that matter) try to
remove the butt-plate?
# #3. The front sight is bent forward.
I'm pretty certain that it wasn't bent when it left here! Maybe somebody
(on your end or whilst in transit) dropped it?
# #4. Rifle will not feed reliably and will never feed the last two rounds.
Well, I personally test-fired this rifle and it worked just fine then.
# #5. The screws that hold the stock to the receiver were so tight that I had
# to take the rifle to a smith to have them >removed.
Again, I didn't remove the wood, but Mr. Hay did tell me that he was
having a problem turning these screws with his "Craftsman" screwdrivers.
You didn't "bugger-up" those screws by using an improper screwdriver,
did you Mr. Hay?
# #6. The stock is cracked
I ALWAYS look for cracks in stocks, and would not buy a rifle with any
(unless it was a real rarity). Again, maybe someone dropped it?
#has major wood damage (impossible to restore)
I said there would be bumps and bruises. I know nothing of major
wood-damage.
# and the handguard is not even the same type of wood as the stock.
Huskies were all made of beech-wood, so I can't see how this could be...
a different shade of wood, maybe... but different type?
# #7. When dry firing, the front of the bolt moves more than 1/4" to the right.
Is that with or without a fired case in the chamber? Many types of
rifles do this with an empty chamber.
# #8. The new sling (purchased seperately) is missing the quick release clip and therefore incomplete.
It was packed loose in the box. I mounted the new sling to the rifle
without it as it is very "clanky" and can detach without warning (been
there, done that). However, I did indeed enclose it.
# #
# #In short, I have seen many $129.95 Swedes in better condition than this
# specimen.
Aren't YOU lucky! I, on the other hand, have seen Swedes with ZERO
bluing (I even owned one for many years).
# #
# #A. I request that you either send the rifle that I was promised (as well as
# the sling clip) or;
# #B. Send me the sling clip and;
# #C. Issue a refund for $330 (cost of rifle, shipping and FFL fees) and;
# #D. Issue a UPS call tag for this rifle.
All unreasonable demands IMHO.
# #
# #Unless a satisfactory resolution has been reached by 04-29-97 I will be
# forced to persue whatever legal >remedies available through the Federal
# Trade Commission (wire fraud, etc.), Florida and Washington Attorney
# #Generals and any other agency that may have regulatory juristiction in a
# matter such as this.
This is a small-claims matter that will go nowhere, as I immediately
offered you a REFUND! Get real!
# #
# #As a last resort, the next time I travel to Florida (as I told you, I grew
# up 50 miles from your location)
Does anyone besides me see an implied personal threat here?
#I will bring all >my evidence and initiate a
# legal action to recover all losses.
Sorry, but you have no case IMHO. Anyone disagree?
# #
# #You may e-mail me or call with your decission. I will not call you again as
# I already have $30 in phone bills to you >and don't wish to waste any more
# money.
Gee, you mean to say that in two or three phone calls I talked to you
for $30 worth at 25 cents a minute? Maybe I ought to bill you for two
hours of my time!
# #
# #James P. Hay
# #
# ****************************************************************************
MY REPLY to the above:
# **************
# #Mr. Hay,
# #
# #The sling-clip was indeed shipped but was packed loose in the box. It is
# #probably still there unless your FFL threw the box away.
I told him this immediately... he said the box was left at his FFL's
store and he wasn't sure it was there anymore. He never looked for it
AFAIK.
# I don't have another to send you.
That's right, I don't, that was my LAST new sling (and it had a
sling-clip and it was sent to you).
# #
# #I will indeed gladly issue a refund for the rifle. I will NOT refund
# #shipping nor FFL fees (this is standard practice).
# #
# #As two weeks and more have passed I am no longer legally obligated to
# #even give a full refund for the rifle, but I will.
# #
# #I won't even charge you some bogus "restocking-fee" that you would be hit
# #with by just about any other dealer.
# #
# #It was your decision to have the rifle sent to you 2nd day air... why
# #should I have to pay for that anyway?
# #
# #As I told you before, I am sorry that we had a difference of opinion on
# #condition... this rifle was in Swedish Home-Guard service for over fifty
# #years and was NOT represented as being new and in perfect condition.
# #Whatever "touch-ups" you claim were done to the metal were not done by
# #me... the rifle is essentially as I bought it except for I cleaned all of
# the grease out of it, checked it for head-space, took it to the range
# #and test-fired and sighted it in, and cleaned it once again to remove
# powder residue.
# #
# #As I also told you, this is the very first problem that I have ever had
# #with any of the many hundreds of firearms I have sold.
# #
# #Threatening me with "wire-fraud" charges and other legal charges is
# #hardly in your best interest. I never sold you a rifle... I sold it to
# #your FFL who transferred it to you. Your attitude towards me and your
# threats border on harassment.
# #
# #Since you have given me a deadline (above) and want to be hard-core about
# #this, then here is my (totally legal) ultimatum... either I receive the
# rifle (or evidence that it has been shipped such as a UPS tracking number)
# #by Monday, May 5th, or this transaction is completed and my refund offer
# #is (legally) withdrawn.
# #
# #I will send a Money Order for $275 after receipt and inspection of this
# #rifle to ensure that it is in the same condition as shipped. That is the
# #bottom-line.
# #
# #Again, I am sorry you are not happy. After talking to you on the phone
# several times I doubt that you will ever be. I did not intend to rip you off
# or decieve you in any way, and am offering a refund for the full $275
# #price of the rifle. I will not pay shipping charges (and legally I am
# #not obligated to) and if your FFL wishes to refund to you the amount he
# #charged that is between you and him.
# #
# #This is my final offer... take it or leave it, you have five days to
# #decide (which is four more than you gave me).
# #
# #Dennis Kroh, Empire Arms
# #
# #
As a final note, I see that Mr. Hay has now posted a WTB for a M-38
Swedish replacement stock, so I guess he wants to keep this horrible,
unacceptable, jam-a-matic defective rifle after all.
This transaction was a real ball-buster from the start, and my colleague
immediately advised me not to sell him anything at all, as he sounded on
the telephone like he would not be satisfied no matter what. Well, I
didn't listen, I picked out what I thought was the best-looking Swede I
had (out of over twenty M-38s) and was positive that he (like ALL of our
customers to date) would be happy with it. I was wrong.
James Hay is a royal pain-in-the-ass to deal with, and I in turn
recommend that "seller-beware" when it comes to him.
So, to end this (regrettably) long reply, I ask you, fellow rec.gunners,
do you think I am so much at fault here and:
1. I should pay him (lose) $55 more than I received for the rifle, or
2. am I justified in only offering him a refund of the $275 I actually
received for the rifle in the first place, or
3. should I offer to pay for the return shipping as well, or
4. should I be an even better sport and cut him a check for a cool
million for all the "pain and suffering" he has endured by my "lying to
him and cheating him" so badly, and get out of the gun-business
altogether? ;-)
Peers, I await your decision.
Sincerly,
Dennis Kroh, kr...@empirearms.com
[MODERATOR: The remainder goes offline, folks, thanks.]