9x21 loads vs 9mm Luger - how much more powder?
zig
Is there a 'general rule' for increasing 9x21 loads? I am using AP50 an
Australian powder and cannot find any reloading data for using this powder
with this caliber. However the table lists 3.4grains of AP50 with 9mm,
how much powder should I then estimate for the 9x21?
Thanks
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Harry Andreas
# Hi
#
# Is there a 'general rule' for increasing 9x21 loads? I am using AP50 an
# Australian powder and cannot find any reloading data for using this powder
# with this caliber. However the table lists 3.4grains of AP50 with 9mm,
# how much powder should I then estimate for the 9x21?
Use exactly the same load for the 9X21 as the 9X19
The 9X21 was developed for those countries, like Italy, where use of
military calibers is not allowed for civilians.
They wanted to use existing 9mm guns without making a huge investment, so
what they did was add another 2mm [about 0.078 inch] to the cartridge
case, but they kept the same overall cartridge length.
So in fact, the bullet in the 9x21 is seated far into the case, but it has
the same overall loaded length as the 9x19, so the volume remaining for
powder is the same as the 9x19.
The chamber in the gun is bored 2mm further in, so standard 9x19
ammunition won't function in a 9x21 chambered gun, and all you need to do
to convert the gun is change the barrel. Even the magazines work the same
because they kept the same overall cartridge length.
--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur
bill horne
# The chamber in the gun is bored 2mm further in, so standard 9x19
# ammunition won't function in a 9x21 chambered gun, and all you need to do
# to convert the gun is change the barrel. Even the magazines work the same
# because they kept the same overall cartridge length.
#
# --
# Harry Andreas
# Engineering raconteur
That's odd. I can fire .380 ACP ammo, which is about 17 mm case length,
in my 9mm. I can't see how making the chamber 2 mm longer would keep it
from working with 9x19.
--
bill
Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
Harry Andreas
# Harry Andreas wrote:
#
# # The chamber in the gun is bored 2mm further in, so standard 9x19
# # ammunition won't function in a 9x21 chambered gun, and all you need to do
# # to convert the gun is change the barrel. Even the magazines work the same
# # because they kept the same overall cartridge length.
# #
# # --
# # Harry Andreas
# # Engineering raconteur
#
# That's odd. I can fire .380 ACP ammo, which is about 17 mm case length,
# in my 9mm. I can't see how making the chamber 2 mm longer would keep it
# from working with 9x19.
What you're doing is fairly dangerous and can lead to case failure while
shooting.
The 9mm and 9mmK both headspace on the cartridge case.
The 9mmK cartridge case will slide forward until it contacts the spacing
ring in the chamber, then the firing pin will extend itself the extra 2mm
to hit the primer.
When the cartridge fires the case is then slammed back into the
breechface, riding up and over the extractor.
Having the cartridge slam around in the chamber is not safe and could
cause a ruptured case head.
Further, not all guns have a firing pin with enough travel to reach the primer.
Keith Whaley, you need to chime in on this one.
bill horne
#
# #
# # # ammunition won't function in a 9x21 chambered gun, and all you need to do
# # # to convert the gun is change the barrel. Even the magazines work the same
# # # because they kept the same overall cartridge length.
# # #
# # # --
# # # Harry Andreas
# # # Engineering raconteur
# #
# # That's odd. I can fire .380 ACP ammo, which is about 17 mm case length,
# # from working with 9x19.
#
# What you're doing is fairly dangerous and can lead to case failure while
# shooting.
# The 9mm and 9mmK both headspace on the cartridge case.
# The 9mmK cartridge case will slide forward until it contacts the spacing
# ring in the chamber, then the firing pin will extend itself the extra 2mm
# to hit the primer.
# When the cartridge fires the case is then slammed back into the
# breechface, riding up and over the extractor.
# Having the cartridge slam around in the chamber is not safe and could
# cause a ruptured case head.
# Further, not all guns have a firing pin with enough travel to reach the primer.
#
# Keith Whaley, you need to chime in on this one.
#
# --
# Harry Andreas
# Engineering raconteur
That's a good theory, and I agree that it's designed to headspace off
the case mouth, but in fact, a .380 in my M39 headspaces off the
extractor. If a .380 is dropped in the chamber, and the slide closed, it
will not fire. The firing pin won't reach it. If you put 'em in the mag,
and cycle the gun, it will fire, cycle the slide, and fire again - as
long as you have bullets, and keep pulling the trigger. And yes, don't
try this home. The cases do bulge significantly, and they could burst.
But mine didn't.
--
bill
Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harry Andreas
# Harry Andreas wrote:
# #
# # In article <8prj18$jmi$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, bill horne
<red...@rye.net> wrote:
# #
# # # Harry Andreas wrote:
# # #
# # # # The chamber in the gun is bored 2mm further in, so standard 9x19
# # # # ammunition won't function in a 9x21 chambered gun, and all you
need to do
# # # # to convert the gun is change the barrel. Even the magazines work
the same
# # # # because they kept the same overall cartridge length.
# # # #
# # # # --
# # # # Harry Andreas
# # # # Engineering raconteur
# # #
# # # That's odd. I can fire .380 ACP ammo, which is about 17 mm case length,
# # # in my 9mm. I can't see how making the chamber 2 mm longer would keep it
# # # from working with 9x19.
# #
# # What you're doing is fairly dangerous and can lead to case failure while
# # shooting.
# # The 9mm and 9mmK both headspace on the cartridge case.
# # The 9mmK cartridge case will slide forward until it contacts the spacing
# # ring in the chamber, then the firing pin will extend itself the extra 2mm
# # to hit the primer.
# # When the cartridge fires the case is then slammed back into the
# # breechface, riding up and over the extractor.
# # Having the cartridge slam around in the chamber is not safe and could
# # cause a ruptured case head.
# # Further, not all guns have a firing pin with enough travel to reach
the primer.
# #
# # Keith Whaley, you need to chime in on this one.
# #
# # --
# # Harry Andreas
# # Engineering raconteur
#
# That's a good theory, and I agree that it's designed to headspace off
# the case mouth, but in fact, a .380 in my M39 headspaces off the
# extractor. If a .380 is dropped in the chamber, and the slide closed, it
# will not fire. The firing pin won't reach it. If you put 'em in the mag,
# and cycle the gun, it will fire, cycle the slide, and fire again - as
# long as you have bullets, and keep pulling the trigger. And yes, don't
# try this home. The cases do bulge significantly, and they could burst.
# But mine didn't.
You're right, in some guns the extractor will hold the cartridge in place.
Glocks will do that and some people have mentioned firing .40 shorty in a
10mm gun, but as we agreed, the practice is dangerous.
bill horne
#
# You're right, in some guns the extractor will hold the cartridge in place.
# Glocks will do that and some people have mentioned firing .40 shorty in a
# 10mm gun, but as we agreed, the practice is dangerous.
#
# --
# Harry Andreas
So we're back to where this started. If I've got a gun with a 21 mm
chamber, and If I happened to be Italian, what's to keep me from firing
9x19's in it, and why would it be dangerous? My point is, unless I'm
missing something, what's to keep an Italian from using 9x19 if he can
get it, and what was the purpose of what appears to be both a stupid law
and a stupid solution.
--
bill
Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
arn_werks
I would worry more about reliability tan about
safety.
There are a lot of nice theories out there that
don't quite work, but they are close enough for
us to use them in meaning ways.
Regards,
Red Bell
bill horne wrote:
> ...
Douglas Trabue
# So we're back to where this started. If I've got a gun with a 21 mm
# chamber, and If I happened to be Italian, what's to keep me from firing
# 9x19's in it, and why would it be dangerous? My point is, unless I'm
# missing something, what's to keep an Italian from using 9x19 if he can
# get it, and what was the purpose of what appears to be both a stupid law
# and a stupid solution.
#
# bill
I don't know but I imagine the law in the European countries that ban
civilian ownership of military caliber firearms has more to do with
keeping all those military surplus firearms out of their hands than it
has to do with the ammo or the ammo's power level. If they can't own
Papa's W.W.II 45 or Luger then they have to go out and buy through
proper channels a registered 9X21.
Just a guess.
Doug T