ArmaLite Shows THIS Weekend (7-8 April)
ArmaLite On-Line
Tulsa, OK
Bealeton, VA
Knob Creek, KY
Tucker, GA
For more information, go to: http:/www.armalite.com
Remember, AR Stands for ArmaLite!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can learn about rec.guns at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
* *
* "Shoot the best, forget the rest. Help our cause stop new gun laws." *
* Marylanders for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership raffles a *
* FULTON ARMORY TACTICAL AR-15 CARBINE. Order your tickets today! *
* Details at http://www.direct-action.org *
Bob S
currently selling them.
--
Some days it is just not worth gnawing through the restraints
"ArmaLite On-Line" <in...@armalite.com> wrote in message
news:9aeg5a$i5k$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
Clint McKee
Bob S <szcze...@techheadnet.com> wrote
# Remember, the armaLite that invented the Ar is not the same ArmaLite that
is
# currently selling them.
WOWEE! An informed consumer! #%^)
Indeed, they have nothing in common, other than a name.
For lot's more incredible AR15 info/stuff, take a weekend at our acclaimed
web site at the url below.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the very kind interest!
Clint
http://www.fulton-armory.com
http://www.fultonarmory.com
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of
servitude better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your
chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye
were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams, speech at the
Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.
Clint McKee
ArmaLite On-Line wrote: (stuff snipped)
# Remember, AR Stands for ArmaLite!
And what *that* has to do with the current commercial company who simply
purchaesd the name, other than the purchased name, I cannot imagine.
BTW, FAR stands for Fulton AR15 :)
For lot's more AR15 info/stuff/rifles take a weekend at our acclaimed web
site at the url below.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the very kind interest!
Clint
http://www.fulton-armory.com
http://www.fultonarmory.com
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of
servitude better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your
chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye
were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams, speech at the
Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ArmaLite, Inc
company in the US Market. Besides producing an entire line of AR10 rifles
built from the ground up with highest parts to include upper, lower, charging
handle, front sight and buffer tube forgings and other high quality parts,
we're producing a gound-up designed AR50, AR30 and are re-introducing the
AR180 redesigned with a polymer receiver engineered to accept AR15 mags and
trigger groups while still maintaining mating capabilities with previously
built AR-180s. AND WE'VE GOT MANY MORE PROJECTS ON THE DRAWING BOARD!!!
Our shop, unlike others who simply assemble rifles from parts bought from
others, consists of machinists, engineers and double-distinguished shooters.
What other manufacturer can boast of that? Additionally, our rifles enjoy a
reputation of accuracy second to none, many with accuracy guaranteeds. In
fact, the Y2K service rifle competition at Camp Perry was won by a shooter
armed with a stock ArmaLite National Match.
So, in short, ArmaLite continues to live up to it's "History of Innovation"
and despite other's attempts to belittle, everytime you look at an AR,
remember:
AR Stands for ArmaLite!
-dph
Clint McKee wrote:
# # Remember, AR Stands for ArmaLite!
#
# And what *that* has to do with the current commercial company who simply
# purchaesd the name, other than the purchased name, I cannot imagine.
ArmaLite, Inc
Clint McKee wrote:
# Indeed, they have nothing in common, other than a name.
AND, a full line of AR-10s, many models shooting 1/2 moa out of the box. And
the AR7. And the AR180 redesigned to accept AR15 mags and triggers. AND the
most innovative design and engineering staff in today's firearms market. AND a
heritage of innovation.
Other than that Clint, you're right. Nothing in common!
To see our full line of innovative products, visit us at
http://www.armalite.com
normali...@hotmail.com
Armalite if you guys would sell your lowers. But, I shoudn't speak for
Clint, he does OK for himself.
I agree that your innovations are great for the shooting community, but
you have to earn respect, the name alone won't do it, especially when
most people think Colt when the think AR. But keep working on it.
Someday you'll have to move out of Geneseo Illinois to get more respect.
A lot of people have painful memories involving shipping crappy rifles
back to that town, not necessarily AR's either.
"ArmaLite, Inc" wrote:
#
# Clint McKee wrote:
#
# # Indeed, they have nothing in common, other than a name.
#
# AND, a full line of AR-10s, many models shooting 1/2 moa out of the box. And
# the AR7. And the AR180 redesigned to accept AR15 mags and triggers. AND the
# most innovative design and engineering staff in today's firearms market. AND a
# heritage of innovation.
Clint McKee
Next time, whoever you are, you might want to add a real name :)
ArmaLite, Inc wrote in message
# Actually, Clint, alot. ArmaLite, Inc is currently the most innovative
# company in the US Market.
Oh dear. Now you are the most innovative company in the entire US market?
# Our shop, unlike others who simply assemble rifles from parts bought from
# others, consists of machinists, engineers and double-distinguished
shooters.
# What other manufacturer can boast of that?
Oh dear. Is their now something dirty with custom shops who don't have big
marketing budgets to buy ads and shooters? And, yes, there are other
manufacturers that have what you state. But what that has to do with the
very best, I cannot imagine. It's a big & vibrant America.
#Additionally, our rifles enjoy a
# reputation of accuracy second to none, many with accuracy guaranteeds. In
Since you are directing this at me, *every* _one_ of Fulton Armory rifles
not only has an accuracy guaratee, but they also have a 30 DAY money back
gaurantee. Do YOU offer this?
And I would argue that your rifles enjoy a reputation second to none. There
are others who make them better.
# fact, the Y2K service rifle competition at Camp Perry was won by a shooter
# armed with a stock ArmaLite National Match.
I asked for details about this the last time it was posted. Could not get
any details. Perhaps you will now help?
# So, in short, ArmaLite continues to live up to it's "History of
Innovation"
# and despite other's attempts to belittle, everytime you look at an AR,
# remember:
#
# AR Stands for ArmaLite!
I did NOT belittle anyone. It is you that now seems to intentionally want to
do the belittleing. And AR stands for Automatic Rifle.
I'd suggest you ensure your boss, Mark Westrom sees this post.
# -dph
For all kinds of terrific info, help, and other great stuff, take a weekend
at our acclaimed web site at the url below. And please forgive us for being
such "small potatoes".
Clint
http://www.fulton-armory.com
http://www.fultonarmory.com
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of
servitude better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your
chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye
were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams, speech at the
Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dean Speir
tells Clint McKee:
# # ...they have nothing in common, other than a name.
# AND, a full line of AR-10s, many models shooting 1/2
# moa out of the box. And the AR7. And the AR180
# redesigned to accept AR15 mags and triggers. AND
# the most innovative design and engineering staff in
# today's firearms market. AND a heritage of innovation.
Whooooa, Nellie!
Puffery is fine, but don't let your hyperbole extend to
outright misrepresentation... you're not the original
ArmaLite, division of Fairchild Engine and Airplane
Corporation ('cause you wouldn't be manufacturing
firearms if you were!) even though you're hawking that
video suggesting that you are.
You're Eagle Arms, and although you've followed in the
steps of your neighbors, Fratelli Reese, and picked up an
abandoned and once honored name, you've yet to make the
bones you're claiming in the AR business. (What is it
about the water in that part of Illinois that allows
ArmaLite and Springfield Armory/Springfield Inc., to
think that, by assuming the guise of someone else's
intellectual property, that they can claim a legacy or
heritage that they've never earned?
# ArmaLite, Inc is currently the most innovative
# company in the US Market.
As the British are wont to say in court, not proven!
Right now, it's all "borrowed interest."
# AND WE'VE GOT MANY MORE PROJECTS ON THE DRAWING
BOARD!!!
So does Olympic Arms... they've had things on the drawing
boards for years, decades even. Most of them are still
there. Deal with what you've done or what you're doing,
not what you're gonna do. Aside from a Camp Perry feather
in your corporate cap, what -have- you actually done?!?
<Merciful snippage of more dubious hyperbole>
# Our shop, unlike others who simply assemble rifles
# from parts bought from others, consists of machinists,
# engineers and double-distinguished shooters. What
# other manufacturer can boast of that?
Okay, you've hit the ground running, but aside from that,
what have you actually done?
Talk to people who live and breathe the Colt's/Stoner
pattern rifles and carbines, and Eagle-ArmaLite is
scarcely a blip on the screen after Bushmaster and even
the declining Colt's.
Talk to instructors who see on a regular basis what
rifles and carbines actually get through a week of
Gunsite or Thunder Ranch, and Eagle/ArmaLite is getting
there, but it's not at the top o'the list.
# So, in short, ArmaLite continues to live up to
# it's "History of Innovation" and despite other's
# attempts to belittle...
Whaaaaaaaa?!? Few even talk about Eagle-ArmaLite, let
alone bothers "to belittle" the company.
# ...everytime you look at an AR, remember:
# AR Stands for ArmaLite!
Not in my dictionary of firearms acronyms. Mebbe someday,
but you've got a ways to go.
Eagle appropriating the name ArmaLite kinda reminds me of
the girl who moved to another town and tried to start all
over as a virgin... 'ceptin' you guys didn't even bother
to leave town!
--
- Dean Speir <Dean...@thegunzone.com>
Formerly Famous Gunwriter / Gun Zone Maintainer
« =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= »
It's not a perfect world... it's why we _have_ guns!
The most current version of the Glock kB! FAQ
is at http://www.thegunzone.com
Theron King
I recently purchased an Eagle AR-10 from the Armalite table at the Tulsa Gun show.
I noted that the adds for the AR-10 stated that the rifle comes with a scope mount
and 10 round magazine. The rifle I purchased did not have a scope mount in the box.
Was this an oversight?
Thanks,
Theron King
Ponca City, Ok.
"ArmaLite, Inc" wrote:
> ...
ArmaLite, Inc
Actually, yes! Let us re-iterate why:
" Besides producing an entire line of AR10 rifles built from the ground up with
highest parts to include upper, lower, charging handle, front sight and buffer
tube forgings and other high quality parts, we're producing a gound-up designed
AR50, AR30 and are re-introducing the AR180 redesigned with a polymer receiver
engineered to accept AR15 mags and trigger groups while still maintaining mating
capabilities with previously built AR-180s. AND WE'VE GOT MANY MORE PROJECTS ON
THE DRAWING BOARD!!!"
I ask again, who else is introducing this many new models and innovation across
a broad-product line?
# Oh dear. Is their now something dirty with custom shops who don't have big
# marketing budgets to buy ads and shooters? And, yes, there are other
# manufacturers that have what you state. But what that has to do with the
# very best, I cannot imagine. It's a big & vibrant America.
Nope, nothing wrong with custom shops. Many custom shops do great work, and we
can appreciate that. ArmaLite, on the other hand, is committed to producing the
highest quality Sport Utility Rifles on the market out of 100% newly
manufactured US parts and at a price affordable to most people!!!
#Additionally, our rifles enjoy a # reputation of accuracy second to none, many
with accuracy guaranteeds. In Since you are directing this at me, *every* _one_
of Fulton Armory rifles not only has an accuracy guaratee, but they also have a
30 DAY money back gaurantee. Do YOU offer this?
Not on all of our models. We are very proud of the accuracy of our models, and
if you read Gun Tests and other reviews, you'll see that our models are
consistently rated higher in quality AND accuracy! I'm sure you realize that
all our models do have a lifetime warranty!
# And I would argue that your rifles enjoy a reputation second to none. There
# are others who make them better.
That is interesting, because reviews do not bear that out. Take Gun Tests
alone, in head-to-head evaluations, off-the-shelf ArmaLite rifles have been
ranked over Colt, Bushmaster, Olympic Arms, Springfield Armory and DSA!
# I did NOT belittle anyone. It is you that now seems to intentionally want to
# do the belittleing. And AR stands for Automatic Rifle.
Nothing could be further from the truth! I was simply replying, with facts, to
your question of what does the current ArmaLite have to do with the ArmaLite of
old!
Finally, let me close by quoting a letter written by the president of ArmaLite:
"...we have more staff, larger facilities, and greater output than any of the
three previous cycles of ArmaLite. We have more in production and in-process
than ArmaLite has ever had before. We have built more center fire rifles in the
past five years than any of the previous ArmaLite organizations and their
licensees produced TOGETHER. And our rifles are engineered better.
You seem undecided about the link of the present company to that of the past. I
think of it the other way: we're the largest, strongest ArmaLite in history.
We're proud of our historic, commercial, and legal links to the previous
ArmaLites. They're a continuing fact that wouldn't be apparent in ads or normal
conversations. We're living up to the reputation for innovation, quality, and
ethics that the first iteration of ArmaLite initiated, and that we have
continued to earn."
ArmaLite, Inc
innovation has raised the standard for other manufacturers.
On small clarification. We do sell lowers under the Eagle Arms name. They are very
high-quality forged lowers made on the same equipment as our ArmaLite receivers.
We do not sell ArmaLite brandes lowers because we want people to be confident that
when they buy an ArmaLite rifle, they're getting a factory-assembled rifle! If we
sold ArmaLite stripped lowers, other's would build them up using inferior parts and
try to pass them off as ArmaLites. Don't believe us? Look at how many people try to
sell rifles with E. A. lowers (Essential Arms) as Eagle Arms rifles? We see it at
just about every gunshow we attend!
We were unaware of that "the other guys" in Geneso were were damaging our
reputation. Perhaps we'll move to Hartford, CT!
ArmaLite, Inc
The current ArmaLite is the BEST ArmaLite and has shipped more AR10s than the
previous ArmaLite, and with a lifetime warranty!
ArmaLite, Inc
into the way of their agenda! I don't understand why the author of this
post thought the following was hyperbole:
" Besides producing an entire line of AR10 rifles built from the ground up
with highest parts to include upper, lower, charging handle, front sight
and buffer
tube forgings and other high quality parts, we're producing a gound-up
designed AR50, AR30 and are re-introducing the AR180 redesigned with a
polymer receiver engineered to accept AR15 mags and trigger groups while
still maintaining mating capabilities with previously built AR-180s. AND
WE'VE GOT MANY MORE PROJECTS ON THE DRAWING BOARD!!!"
What Mr Speir is hyperbole in the previous quote?
Mr Speir is also incorrect when he says ArmaLite is in fact Eagle Arms.
ArmaLite is ArmaLite! Here is a passage from our president, Mark Westrom,
which puts everything into perspective:
"...we have more staff, larger facilities, and greater output than any of
the
three previous cycles of ArmaLite. We have more in production and
in-process
than ArmaLite has ever had before. We have built more center fire rifles in
the
past five years than any of the previous ArmaLite organizations and their
licensees produced TOGETHER. And our rifles are engineered better.
You seem undecided about the link of the present company to that of the
past. I
think of it the other way: we're the largest, strongest ArmaLite in
history.
We're proud of our historic, commercial, and legal links to the previous
ArmaLites. They're a continuing fact that wouldn't be apparent in ads or
normal
conversations. We're living up to the reputation for innovation, quality,
and
ethics that the first iteration of ArmaLite initiated, and that we have
continued to earn."
Mr Spier seems fixated on the Heritage of Colt and Bushmaster, but let me
remind you that Bushmaster was sold in the past year and Colt and it's
trademark have changed hands so many times in the past few years it's
difficult to know who currently owns it!
The author then goes on to state:
# So does Olympic Arms... they've had things on the drawing
# boards for years, decades even. Most of them are still
# there. Deal with what you've done or what you're doing,
# not what you're gonna do. Aside from a Camp Perry feather
# in your corporate cap, what -have- you actually done?!?
We're not sure of what Olympic Arms does or fails to do, but if the author
wants to know what we've done, here are a few highlights:
- Re-introduced the AR10 based upon quality forgings.
- Introduced the AR50 and sold well of 2,000 of them in two years.
- Re-introduced the AR180 and redesigned it to accept AR15 mags and
triggers.
- Won the service rifle competition at Camp Perry with an out-of-the box
rifle (and Mr Speir downplays this!!!)
- Offer a lifetime warranty on every rifle we make!
Remember, AR Stands for ArmaLite!
(Don't belive it, see the FAQ on our website at http://www.armalite.com)!
200...@wongfaye.com
armalites
i got one and you can still see the origional logo under the etched armalite
lable
at least they didnt go with henrys
i wanted a raised armalie logo on it but forget it all ar-7s are crap
i have 2 charters that work great when clean
Pat Daniels
wrote:
#Wow! There are evidently people on this newgroup who do not let facts get
#into the way of their agenda! I don't understand why the author of this
#post thought the following was hyperbole:
Oh boy, this is gonna be a _GOOD_ one!
Pat
Mark Yaworski
manufacturer frequents this board. I don't believe that Colt, BM, S&W
or any other gun maker comes here. A number of well known 'smiths do
but that's different.
On 15 Apr 2001 12:05:11 -0400, "ArmaLite, Inc" <in...@armalite.com>
wrote:
#Mr Speir is also incorrect when he says ArmaLite is in fact Eagle Arms.
#ArmaLite is ArmaLite! Here is a passage from our president, Mark Westrom,
#which puts everything into perspective:
As far as I can determine, your only connection to the Armalite that
developed the AR-7, AR-15, AR-10, etc. is that you bought the name.
If I started an automobile company and called it "REO Speedwagon," I
could not lay claim to any of the heritage of the orginal REO
Speedwagon or the rock group of the same name.
#- Won the service rifle competition at Camp Perry with an out-of-the box
#rifle (and Mr Speir downplays this!!!)
Sorry, but you didn't win shit. A shooter using one of your rifles
won.
#- Offer a lifetime warranty on every rifle we make!
So does Colt.
Mark Yaworski <I speak for myself and nobody else.>
NRA Recruiter ID XR014173
Join NRA http://www.yaworski.com/nra
Federally Licensed Firearms Dealer
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor
Sometimes Basketball Referee
Othertimes Baseball Umpire
Certified Netware Administrator
And Other Things That No One Cares About
******
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of
authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made
to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are
men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They
promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
Mike Sauve
# Here is a passage from our president, Mark Westrom... "We have built more
# center fire rifles in the past five years than any of the previous ArmaLite
# organizations and their licensees produced TOGETHER."
Colt is/was a licensee of the ArmaLite division of Fairchild. You're claiming to
have built more centerfire rifles in the past 5 years than Colt has in it's
entire history. Sounds like a lie to me.
Dean Speir
persists...
# Wow! There are evidently people on this newgroup
# who do not let facts get into the way of their agenda!
Gee, welcome to the world of newsgroups... and rec.guns
in specific.
I, however, have no agenda regarding ArmaLite, Inc.
(-nee- Eagle Arms), only when some flack-catcher from a
commercial enterprise para-jumps into the middle of a
newsgroup and starts trying to blow smoke up everyone's
arse
# I don't understand why the author of this
# post thought the following was hyperbole:
<snippage of cut 'n' pasted puffery>
# What Mr Speir is hyperbole in the previous quote?
Your previous post was, -en toto-, hyperbole. For a
fuller grasp of the concept, try: www.dictionary.com.
Or freshen up on your Thomas Macaulay who said of the
boldest figure in rhetoric, the hyperbole, that it lies
without deceiving. (And that's as good as it's gonna get
for you, I'm afraid.)
# Mr Speir is also incorrect when he says ArmaLite
# is in fact Eagle Arms. ArmaLite is ArmaLite!
"Also?" Before you start paraphrasing Gertrude Stein to
us, you will need to demonstrate that I was incorrect in
anything prior to this.
<snippage of self-serving press release
over president of ArmaLite's signature.>
# You seem undecided about the link of the
# present company to that of the past.
I can assure you that there is no indecision on this
issue for my part.
# I think of it the other way: we're the largest,
# strongest ArmaLite in history.
You get paid to think of it that way... but let's cut to
the denouement: where do you think that your company
would be today if it was still called Eagle Arms?
Careful how you answer that...
# We're proud of our historic, commercial, and
# legal links to the previous ArmaLites. They're
# a continuing fact that wouldn't be apparent
# in ads or normal conversations. We're living
# up to the reputation for innovation, quality,
# and ethics that the first iteration of ArmaLite
# initiated, and that we have continued to earn."
So then Eagle Arms was in some sort of difficulty along
those lines?
# Mr Spier seems fixated on the Heritage of
# Colt and Bushmaster...
No, sir... "fixated" is an unsupportable
characterization. (You're kinda new at this, aren't
you?!)
Colt's has a genuine heritage... unfortunately, it's not
worth very much now-a-days, but then that's entirely
their doing.
# ...but let me remind you that Bushmaster was sold
# in the past year and Colt and it's trademark have
# changed hands so many times in the past few years
# it's difficult to know who currently owns it!
So what? What does this have to do with Eagle Arms
appropriating the intellectual property of a once
respected but long discontinued enterprise? What sort of
continuity are you claiming?
# The author then goes on to state:
# # So does Olympic Arms... they've had things on the
drawing
# # boards for years, decades even. Most of them are
still
# # there. Deal with what you've done or what you're
doing,
# # not what you're gonna do. Aside from a Camp Perry
feather
# # in your corporate cap, what -have- you actually
done?!?
# We're not sure of what Olympic Arms does or fails to
do,
# but if the author wants to know what we've done, here
# are a few highlights:
# - Re-introduced the AR10 based upon quality forgings.
Fair enough...
# - Introduced the AR50 and sold well of 2,000 of them
# in two years.
And this is dispositive of what?
# - Re-introduced the AR180 and redesigned it to accept
# AR15 mags and triggers.
Good.
# - Won the service rifle competition at Camp Perry with
# an out-of-the box rifle (and Mr Speir downplays
this!!!)
On the contrary, Mr. Speir conceded it... if I'd wanted
to "downplay this," I certainly wouldn't have mentioned
it. (Boy, you really -are- new at this!)
# - Offer a lifetime warranty on every rifle we make!
While this is admirable, it is neither innovative nor
unique.
# Remember, AR Stands for ArmaLite!
Okay, you've established that your company has adopted
this as a tag line, and perhaps after a suitable period
of proving itself in the marketplace, in the field and on
the firing line, it may work out for ArmaLite better than
"Glock Perfection" did for those folks in Austria.
Goebbels' "Big Lie" approach probably wouldn't have
gotten Nazi Germany as far today as it did 60-65 years
ago.
# (Don't belive it, see the FAQ on our website
# at http://www.armalite.com)!
Now, why would anyone "belive" a company-authored FAQ
given the fanciful claims you've made in this newsgroup?
Trying to pass the ArmaLite of today off as the
legitimate heir to the reputation of the ArmaLite
division of Fairchild nothing short of sleezy... until
you've proved yourself worthy of that name.
And we'll know that day when the Eagle Arms/ArmaLite guns
start making it through the crucible of a Gunsite 556 or
an Thunder Ranch carbine course on a regular basis,
without taking a dump.
--
- Dean Speir <Dean...@thegunzone.com>
Formerly Famous Gunwriter / Gun Zone Maintainer
« =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= »
It's not a perfect world... it's why we _have_ guns!
The most current version of the Glock kB! FAQ
is at http://www.thegunzone.com
flimflam
sometimes they are in conflict with each other. Currently, I own a couple
of Colt's, and an Armalite, and one from Fulton Armory. In numbers, I'm a
lucky guy. I'd be hard put to pick just one that I like beyond all others,
but if pressed I suppose I could.
We're all in this together, and maybe we should just try to find a
common ground where we can all agree. Now, I know I wasn't put on mother
earth to be a peace maker, but com'on people--- this gives me a headache.
EVERY firearm maker that has been mentioned makes fine firearms, and they
all work passably.
On any given day, a superb marksman can make one of these ARs talk. It
doesn't really mean that the others are not up to certain standards. Some
of them don't have military heritage, and military part numbers, but that
also doesn't mean they won't serve their owners honorably.
My parents bought one of the NM Armalite's for my 50th, and to be
honest, I can shoot Clint's lightweight barrel AR better. It doesn't mean
that the Armalite isn't any good, it just means that I can shoot one of my
other rifles better---- or I just haven't hit on a good load for it. I
guess there isn't an easy answer to , what appears to be a "marketing"
problem here, or maybe we just have thin skins when it comes to things on
this group. At any rate, this thread is not helping anyone.
In the past, there probably hasn't been ANYONE that has started more
crap on this group than I. Something I'm not proud of, but the record
stands. If for no other reason, than it serves NO purpose, please just quit
the backbiting, ok? WE, as shooters don't need this. We ALL need to
prosper, so let's figure out a way we can.
Why don't we do something constructive, and let the chips fall where
they may? How about something like an inter-factory championship for
rifles? Have each company provide one of their best, and have different
shooters shoot them on different days? Sorta like the IROC challenge. We
could also get a bunch of newbie junior shooters and have a real shooting
day, or two. Naturally, I think Florida would be the place :-) Fun,
sun,fishing, golf, shrimp, smoket mullet, and shooting. Couldn't be
better.
If you firearm makers agree, then let's make plans. I'll provide all of
the logistical support I can, and we'll all work together to have a fun
weekend, or whatever. The ultimate winner will have great bragging rights,
until the next time. You people that are in touch with the "big guns" of
the firearm industry can get us some national exposure, and maybe some of
the gunzine writers can come also. Not that this is the best idea in the
world, but it sure beats what is now going on. What say all of you?
Flimflam
A-1 Pawn & Jewelry
1925 S.E.Hwy 19
Crystal River, Florida, 34429
352-795-2777
fax: 352-795-2093
flim...@xtalwind.net
URL: http://members3.clubphoto.com/jdavid270383 new stuff to see
http;//www.dangerousbooks.com/at.cgi?a=15286
" If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody is not thinking"
---------- George S. Patton
Ponder
# Wow! There are evidently people on this newgroup who do not let facts get
# into the way of their agenda! ...........................................
#
# Speir is also incorrect when he says ArmaLite is in fact Eagle Arms.
# ArmaLite is ArmaLite! ...................................................
I also am having trouble explaining recent advertisements by "ArmaLite" to my
customers. On page 187 of April 13, 2001 edition of Gun List is an ArmaLite
ad. It advertises an Eagle Arms AR-10 for retail of $999.95! The ad states
"Eagle Arms, a div of ArmaLite". The address at the bottom of the full page ad
is all ArmaLite with no mention of Eagle Arms.
I have several customers claiming that I "RIPPED THEM OFF" and "OVERCHARGED"
them on Armalite AR-10A4's. That is the rifle pictured in the Eagle Arms ad for
$999.95. My suppliers charge me much more wholesale for this rifle than
$999.95.
Two suppliers, RSR & Acusport, were unable to respond to questioning of the
prices. Because of the large quantity of Armalites bought, both promised to
answer my concerns this week.
Sincerely, Cliff Harrison, Owner
------
http://www.ponderosasports.com
CLIFF HARRISON
PONDEROSA SPORTS & MERCANTILE
6854 HIGHWAY 55
HORSESHOE BEND, IDAHO 83629
Drew'n'Lee
Jehovah's (spelling?) witnesses. Not putting down religion, of course.
They kept coming by and the only way I got rid of them was one day while
doing the lawn, they came up and assisted with laying sod, weed eating
the ditch, and unload and place railroad ties along the driveway (about
100). Never saw them again.
BTW...armalite rep....were you a insurance salesman in your former life?
(no pun intended against salesmen/women of insurance)
Clint McKee
Mike Sauve <mi...@flatsurface.com> wrote (Good stuff snipped)
# "ArmaLite, Inc" wrote:
#
# # Here is a passage from our president, Mark Westrom... "We have built
more
# # center fire rifles in the past five years than any of the previous
ArmaLite
# # organizations and their licensees produced TOGETHER."
The BATF Manufacturing Records are public knowledge. How's about sending
this group a copy of your records and, ALL the other licensee's so the group
can compare? That will answer this question. Facts, you know, and facts you
know, and can produce.
For lot's more incredible AR15 stuff, take a weekend at our acclaimed web
site at the url below.
Thanks for the very kind interest!
Clint
http://www.fulton-armory.com
http://www.fultonarmory.com
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of
servitude better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your
chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye
were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams, speech at the
Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.
Clint McKee
Ponder <pon...@micron.net> wrote
## "ArmaLite, Inc." wrote:
#
# # Wow! There are evidently people on this newgroup who do not let facts
get
# # into the way of their agenda!
...........................................
# # Speir is also incorrect when he says ArmaLite is in fact Eagle Arms.
# # ArmaLite is ArmaLite!
...................................................
#
# I also am having trouble explaining recent advertisements by "ArmaLite" to
my
# customers. On page 187 of April 13, 2001 edition of Gun List is an
ArmaLite
# ad. It advertises an Eagle Arms AR-10 for retail of $999.95! The ad
states
# "Eagle Arms, a div of ArmaLite". The address at the bottom of the full
page ad
# is all ArmaLite with no mention of Eagle Arms.
#
# I have several customers claiming that I "RIPPED THEM OFF" and
"OVERCHARGED"
# them on Armalite AR-10A4's. That is the rifle pictured in the Eagle Arms
ad for
# $999.95. My suppliers charge me much more wholesale for this rifle than
# $999.95.
Yep, it seems "Armalite" is out to destroy the small
dealer/assembler/gunsmith. Want the "name" pay 50% more. If that's too much,
buy the same thing with the Eagle name? Gosh, business must be tough...
# Two suppliers, RSR & Acusport, were unable to respond to questioning of
the
# prices. Because of the large quantity of Armalites bought, both promised
to
# answer my concerns this week.
Hoo Boy! We all are waiting for THAT explanation! Inquiring minds and all...
For lots more great AR15 info, take a weekend at our acclaimed web site at
the url below. It's paid for by our wonderful customers, as we have only 6
employees. Some will make that a sin.
Thanks for the very kind interest!
Clint
http://www.fulton-armory.com
http://www.fultonarmory.com
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of
servitude better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your
chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye
were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams, speech at the
Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clint McKee
Mark Yaworski <ne...@yaworski.com> wrote (some small stuff snipped)
# First, let me say that I am impressed that a representative of a
# manufacturer frequents this board. I don't believe that Colt, BM, S&W
# or any other gun maker comes here. A number of well known 'smiths do
# but that's different.
Fulton Armory IS a manufacturer (for the best darned AR15 stuff , well, you
know..... :)
Second, _why_ is it different that an OWNER of a company is somehow less
than a marketing cool-aider? I'd have thunk the exact opposite.
IMHO, let's compare apples and apples. Owners vs owners. The buck stops
here, kind of stuff. :) Many smaller high quality shops don't have the
resources to hide behind marketeers. Many defined their life's purpose in
just such a way. And besides, why should any small owner face the music,
while the big owners hide? In the old days, a man stood behind his company.
Let us NOT demean those that still carry such a light.
What say you Group?
And then, we see from some employee marketing corporate type:
# On 15 Apr 2001 12:05:11 -0400, "ArmaLite, Inc" <in...@armalite.com>
# wrote:
#
# #Mr Speir is also incorrect when he says ArmaLite is in fact Eagle Arms.
# #ArmaLite is ArmaLite! Here is a passage from our president, Mark
Westrom,
# #which puts everything into perspective:
To put it mildly, this most certainly does _not_ put *everything* into
"perspective". You are kidding, right? BTW, what flavor they mix'in up there
in Geneseo, IL. this week? Could you send me some for recreational purposes,
pelleeeese? I'll trade some real GI parts ;^)
# As far as I can determine, your only connection to the Armalite that
# developed the AR-7, AR-15, AR-10, etc. is that you bought the name.
> If I started an automobile company and called it "REO Speedwagon," I
# could not lay claim to any of the heritage of the orginal REO
# Speedwagon or the rock group of the same name.
True enough. Clear as crystal.
# #- Won the service rifle competition at Camp Perry with an out-of-the box
# #rifle (and Mr Speir downplays this!!!)
In fact, Mr. Speir _gave_ you this one. Wrong again :0 Try to get some of
your citations right. It helps build trust :) Actually, it was one of the
small custom shops that your company seems to now hold in grand disregard
(many of them are your customers BTW). Business THAT bad? It was Clint
Mckee, the owner of Fulton Armory that challenged this broad and, yet again,
potentially misleading claim. And, I am STILL waiting on the *details* of
this stock out of the box winning rifle. And, it's been months.
# Sorry, but you didn't win shit. A shooter using one of your rifles won.
Fine crystal, when thoughtfully caressed, _just_ right, will produce a song
of remarkable beauty that few have ever heard. Mr.Yaworski has just excited
the lattice in a way that we all can easily appreciate. Thank you, SIR!
For lot's more great AR15 stuff, take a weekend at our acclaimed web site at
the url below.
Oh, and win an awesome, state-of-the-art Tactical AR15, at the end of every
rec.gun post. Talk about innovations :) BTW, FAR-15 stands for Fulton Armory
Rifle 15 :)
Thanks for the very kind interest!
Clint
http://www.fulton-armory.com
http://www.fultonarmory.com
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of
servitude better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your
chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye
were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams, speech at the
Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clint McKee
Mike Sauve <mi...@flatsurface.com> wrote (Good stuff snipped)
# "ArmaLite, Inc" wrote:
#
# # Here is a passage from our president, Mark Westrom... "We have built
more
# # center fire rifles in the past five years than any of the previous
ArmaLite
# # organizations and their licensees produced TOGETHER."
The BATF Manufacturing Records are public knowledge. How's about sending
this group a copy of your records and, ALL the other licensee's so the group
can compare? That will answer this question. Facts, you know, and facts you
know, and can produce.
For lot's more incredible AR15 stuff, take a weekend at our acclaimed web
site at the url below.
Thanks for the very kind interest!
Clint
http://www.fulton-armory.com
http://www.fultonarmory.com
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of
servitude better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your
chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye
were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams, speech at the
Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.
Clint McKee
Ponder <pon...@micron.net> wrote
## "ArmaLite, Inc." wrote:
#
# # Wow! There are evidently people on this newgroup who do not let facts
get
# # into the way of their agenda!
...........................................
# # Speir is also incorrect when he says ArmaLite is in fact Eagle Arms.
# # ArmaLite is ArmaLite!
...................................................
#
# I also am having trouble explaining recent advertisements by "ArmaLite" to
my
# customers. On page 187 of April 13, 2001 edition of Gun List is an
ArmaLite
# ad. It advertises an Eagle Arms AR-10 for retail of $999.95! The ad
states
# "Eagle Arms, a div of ArmaLite". The address at the bottom of the full
page ad
# is all ArmaLite with no mention of Eagle Arms.
#
# I have several customers claiming that I "RIPPED THEM OFF" and
"OVERCHARGED"
# them on Armalite AR-10A4's. That is the rifle pictured in the Eagle Arms
ad for
# $999.95. My suppliers charge me much more wholesale for this rifle than
# $999.95.
Yep, it seems "Armalite" is out to destroy the small
dealer/assembler/gunsmith. Want the "name" pay 50% more. If that's too much,
buy the same thing with the Eagle name? Gosh, business must be tough...
# Two suppliers, RSR & Acusport, were unable to respond to questioning of
the
# prices. Because of the large quantity of Armalites bought, both promised
to
# answer my concerns this week.
Hoo Boy! We all are waiting for THAT explanation! Inquiring minds and all...
For lots more great AR15 info, take a weekend at our acclaimed web site at
the url below. It's paid for by our wonderful customers, as we have only 6
employees. Some will make that a sin.
Thanks for the very kind interest!
Clint
http://www.fulton-armory.com
http://www.fultonarmory.com
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of
servitude better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your
chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye
were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams, speech at the
Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clint McKee
ArmaLite, Inc <in...@armalite.com> wrote Stuff snipped :)
# # Oh dear. Now you are the most innovative company in the entire US
market?
#
# Actually, yes! Let us re-iterate why:
Oh dear, I don't think so. You have been making sooo many hyperbolic claims,
let's try to get back to sea level.
To begin with, you make very few things. Most everything you claim to
"manufacture" is actually made by other companies.
# I ask again, who else is introducing this many new models and innovation
across
# a broad-product line?
There's a TV show that has this chemical stuff that takes out even the
dirtiest and most troblesome stains, stuff slices & dices, has a fishing rod
thing, cooks hamburgers w/o the FAT, a car wash deal that makes you think
you paid for it, a thing that takes the grapefruit sections with a twist of
the wrist, ... Talk about innovation in America!
# Nope, nothing wrong with custom shops. Many custom shops do great work,
and we
# can appreciate that. ArmaLite, on the other hand, is committed to
producing the
# highest quality Sport Utility Rifles on the market out of 100% newly
# manufactured US parts and at a price affordable to most people!!!
Oh great. Now, you are a "sport ulility" manufacturer? What exactly IS in
the water in Geneseo, IL?
# #Additionally, our rifles enjoy a # reputation of accuracy second to none,
many
# with accuracy guaranteeds. In Since you are directing this at me, *every*
_one_
# of Fulton Armory rifles not only has an accuracy guaratee, but they also
have a
# 30 DAY money back gaurantee. Do YOU offer this?
#
# Not on all of our models. We are very proud of the accuracy of our
models, and
Pride is one of the 10 deadly sins. If you got a rad device and make rad
claims, *gaurantee* THEM with money back, like we do :)
# if you read Gun Tests and other reviews, you'll see that our models are
# consistently rated higher in quality AND accuracy! I'm sure you realize
that
# all our models do have a lifetime warranty!
There's a whole philosophy on gun rags, but I digress. But since you brought
it up, reproduce the articles for this group. You think they are all a
school of carp waiting for your next piece of velveeta? Publish the stuff,
and, let us know whom you were "rated" higher than.
# # And I would argue that your rifles enjoy a reputation second to none.
There
# # are others who make them better.
#
# That is interesting, because reviews do not bear that out. Take Gun Tests
# alone, in head-to-head evaluations, off-the-shelf ArmaLite rifles have
been
# ranked over Colt, Bushmaster, Olympic Arms, Springfield Armory and DSA!
Gosh, maybe they forgot to test a Fulton Armory, Derrick Martin, Marty
Bordson, Scott Medesha, .....rifle and a whole world of other small business
owners who put their very name, sweat, tears and often even blood, out in
the public every day. And, for the *advanced* users, the most picky and
edcuated owners this world has ever known. The best there is.
# # I did NOT belittle anyone. It is you that now seems to intentionally
want to
# # do the belittleing. And AR stands for Automatic Rifle.
#
# Nothing could be further from the truth! I was simply replying, with
facts, to
# your question of what does the current ArmaLite have to do with the
ArmaLite of
# old!
Keep sayoing it, over & opver again, and maybe THIS news group will begin
believing it ? Bwahahahahahaha. ;^)
# Finally, let me close by quoting a letter written by the president of
ArmaLite:
Again, I don't think so :)
Put Mark on the horn. WE are all waiting to _engage_ him *directly*. Some of
us have have a few bones to rattle :)
For lots more incredible FAR-15 (that's Fulton Armory 15 stuff, named after
the town in which I lived when I started my company and, far more
importantly, the town in which we lived when my son was born) take a weekend
at our acclaimed web site at the url below. It's paid for by our customers,
as we are only a 6 person shop :) Now, Ain't THAT *great* :)
Thanks for the very kind interest in the good stuff!
Clint
http://www.fulton-armory.com
http://www.fultonarmory.com
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of
servitude better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your
chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye
were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams, speech at the
Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walter J. Kuleck, Ph.D.
earlier from Nov 1999 issue):
Rifle Mfr: 1999 1998 1997 1996
ArmaLite 8,018 6,605 5,469 2,722
Bushmaster 64,506 25,610 10,976 8,240
Colt 29,143 33,212 28,100 15,903
Knight 995 474 203 150
Olympic 7,456 4,481 N/A N/A
As of '99, Armalite has not been the heavy hitter. Oh, and "licensees"
include Colt, which made, well, a whole bunch of M16s under ArmaLite licence
until the patents ran out in the '70's.
FYI...
Best regards,
Walt Kuleck
Fulton Armory Webmaster
http://www.fulton-armory.com
*Everything* for the AR-15, M1 Garand, M14/M1A and M1 Carbine!
Author of "The AR-15 Complete Owner's Guide"
# -----Original Message-----
# From: Clint McKee [mailto:wcm...@mindspring.com]
# Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 9:37 PM
# To: Dean Speir; Walter Kuleck; mi...@flatsurface.com
# Subject: Re: Dubious Puffery (was: ArmaLite Shows)
#
#
# Hi Mike, Armalite & Group!
#
# Mike Sauve <mi...@flatsurface.com> wrote (Good stuff snipped)
#
# > "ArmaLite, Inc" wrote:
# >
# > # Here is a passage from our president, Mark Westrom... "We have built
# more
# > # center fire rifles in the past five years than any of the previous
# ArmaLite
# > # organizations and their licensees produced TOGETHER."
#
# The BATF Manufacturing Records are public knowledge. How's about sending
# this group a copy of your records and, ALL the other licensee's
# so the group
# can compare? That will answer this question. Facts, you know, and
# facts you
# know, and can produce.
#
# For lot's more incredible AR15 stuff, take a weekend at our acclaimed web
# site at the url below.
#
# Thanks for the very kind interest!
# Clint
# http://www.fulton-armory.com
# http://www.fultonarmory.com
# If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of
# servitude better than the animating contest of freedom,
# go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms.
# Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your
# chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye
# were our countrymen. -- Samuel Adams, speech at the
# Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776.
#
#
#
#
#
Walter J. Kuleck, Ph.D.
Look, I dunno why this all started.
ArmaLite is a good company with good products. It's not the only good
company with good products, but I don't hesitate to offer ArmaLite my
custom.
I've met COL Westrom on any number of occassions; he's been a gentleman very
open with his knowledge & willing to help with my book research. I like and
respect him.
ArmaLite and COL Westrom don't need wild hyperbole to grow their business.
The quality of their products & services will do that quite handsomely.
Fulton Armory is also a good company with good products. However, it's a
different kind of company with different kinds of products. ArmaLite has to
build rifles for more than one person at a time; Fulton Armory does not.
ArmaLite has to focus on a standardized product line in order to get the
economies of scale that a larger mfr must have to cover its overhead.
Fulton Armory can make every rifle different from every other, should
customers demand.
ArmaLite has a number of innovations to its credit: the AR-10, the AR-10B
(which I covet!), the mid-length carbine handguard setup, inter alia.
Fulton Armory is introducing its QuadRail and CarbonRail systems, unique in
the AR-15 market. Fulton Armory has the only flash supressor look-alike
that can be removed and replaced should the owner, for example, wish to
retrofit a float tube. With most others (I think all, but I'm not entirely
certain) you can't remove the look-alike comp without sawing it off. Fulton
Armory is innovating too; just check the Defence Department at the Fulton
Armory web site!!
So let's quit the p*ss*ng contest, Mr. Sauve, and focust on our real
adversaries: Schumer, Feinstein, and the rest. Time to move on to something
more constructive, like building and shooting rifles!
Best regards,
Walt Kuleck
Fulton Armory Webmaster
http://www.fulton-armory.com
*Everything* for the AR-15, M1 Garand, M14/M1A and M1 Carbine!
Author of "The AR-15 Complete Owner's Guide"
BATF statistics, per ATF web site (1999, 1998) and Small Arms Review (1997 &
earlier from Nov 1999 issue):
Rifle Mfr: 1999 1998 1997 1996
ArmaLite 8,018 6,605 5,469 2,722
Bushmaster 64,506 25,610 10,976 8,240
Colt 29,143 33,212 28,100 15,903
Knight 995 474 203 150
Olympic 7,456 4,481 N/A N/A
As of '99, Armalite has not been the heavy hitter. Oh, and "licensees"
include Colt, which made, well, a whole bunch of M16s under ArmaLite licence
until the patents ran out in the '70's.
FYI...
Best regards,
Walt Kuleck
Fulton Armory Webmaster
http://www.fulton-armory.com
*Everything* for the AR-15, M1 Garand, M14/M1A and M1 Carbine!
Author of "The AR-15 Complete Owner's Guide"
Mike Sauve
# So let's quit the p*ss*ng contest, Mr. Sauve, and focust on our real
# adversaries: Schumer, Feinstein, and the rest. Time to move on to something
# more constructive, like building and shooting rifles!
Just where the hell does this come from, Dr. Kulek? Mr. Armalite made a claim
which you have documented as being grossly false, and I pointed it out. No
pissing involved, pissant.
RJ
Maybe you could help me here, as maybe I missed something.
What is it you all are trying to accomplish?
I own an AR10-T, and but for a few bumps in the road, it is a fine
rifle. I have never bought anything from Fulton and have no first hand
experience with their products.
Perhaps I am being simple minded, but how about a little professional
courtesy? Geezzz!
RJ
...
Michael Justice
# First, let me say that I am impressed that a representative of a
# manufacturer frequents this board. I don't believe that Colt, BM, S&W
# or any other gun maker comes here. A number of well known 'smiths do
# but that's different.
Olympic Arms used to post here regularly, until people who were pissed
off for one reason or another (the 1994 AW ban, the 7.62x39 steel-core
ban, one rifle out of billions that didn't shoot .05 MOA, or whatever)
flamed them to death.
ArmaLite would do well to contribute with technical assistance and an
occasional brief announcement, rather than this PR fluff, though. JMHO.
-- Michael.
--
Michael A. Justice |"There was nothing like getting up at three in the morning
lib...@eskimo.com | and riding the defensive perimeter in subzero cold, with
Libertarian Party | a loaded rifle, to build up one's sense of responsibility
FIJA, WCW, NRA, AMA| and community." -- _The_Diamond_Age_, by Neal Stephenson