Tomcat safety question

Joel Rosenberg

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Apr 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/12/97

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Legalisms aside -- most gun manuals I've seen seem to suggest that it's
unsafe to even think about ever putting a live cartridge in a handgun --
what, if any, are the dangers of carrying the Beretta Tomcat with a
round chambered and the safety off?

It does have an inertial firing pin, and (as far as I can tell) all the
safety switch does is lock the hammer and slide -- is there a real
danger that dropping the gun or a sharp blow to the (unlocked) hammer
would cause an accidental discharge?

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Gary

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Apr 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/14/97

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Joel Rosenberg wrote:
#
# Legalisms aside -- most gun manuals I've seen seem to suggest that it's
# unsafe to even think about ever putting a live cartridge in a handgun --
# what, if any, are the dangers of carrying the Beretta Tomcat with a
# round chambered and the safety off?
#
# It does have an inertial firing pin, and (as far as I can tell) all the
# safety switch does is lock the hammer and slide -- is there a real
# danger that dropping the gun or a sharp blow to the (unlocked) hammer
# would cause an accidental discharge?
#
# --
# ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#
# http://www.winternet.com/~joelr |
# http://www.winternet.com/~joelr/jrbooks.html
# ...and for one last bit of geekitry, to receive the latest version of my
# FAQ,
# send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the Subject:
# line.
# ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a generic warning in the Tomcat's owner's manual to the effect
that any loaded firearm may discharge if hit or dropped due to sensitive
primers in some ammunition.
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Regards,
Gary

Rosco Benson

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Apr 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/15/97

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#==========Joel Rosenberg, 4/12/97==========
#Legalisms aside -- most gun manuals I've seen seem to suggest that it's
#unsafe to even think about ever putting a live cartridge in a handgun --
#what, if any, are the dangers of carrying the Beretta Tomcat with a
#round chambered and the safety off?

You are quite correct in your criticism of the current, weasely
manuals. Most of 'em stop, just short, of suggesting that you
probably should OWN a gun, much less load it.

#It does have an inertial firing pin, and (as far as I can tell) all the
#safety switch does is lock the hammer and slide -- is there a real
#danger that dropping the gun or a sharp blow to the (unlocked) hammer

#would cause an accidental discharge?

If the Tomcat is carried for defensive purposes, it is likely to be
needed QUICKLY if at all. It would follow that the only viable
carry mode would be chamber loaded, safety off (hammer down
for a DA first shot, natch). The safety would permit a "cocked
and locked" carry, but it is so small that just ignoring it is
probably the best option. With its inertial firing pin, the Tomcat
could conceiveably fire if dropped sufficiently hard onto its
muzzle. Given the weight distribution of the piece, I can scarcely
imagine it falling and landing on its muzzle. In any event, whether
or not the thumb safety was engaged would make no difference.

Rosco S. Benson
NCR Customer Information Services
My opinions...not my employer's

Bill Nine Toes

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Apr 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/16/97

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Rosco Benson <rosco....@DaytonOH.NCR.COM> wrote in article
<5ivs3i$s...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#
# #==========Joel Rosenberg, 4/12/97==========
# #Legalisms aside -- most gun manuals I've seen seem to suggest that it's
# #unsafe to even think about ever putting a live cartridge in a handgun --
# #what, if any, are the dangers of carrying the Beretta Tomcat with a
# #round chambered and the safety off?
#
# You are quite correct in your criticism of the current, weasely
# manuals. Most of 'em stop, just short, of suggesting that you
# probably should OWN a gun, much less load it.
#
# #It does have an inertial firing pin, and (as far as I can tell) all the
# #safety switch does is lock the hammer and slide -- is there a real
# #danger that dropping the gun or a sharp blow to the (unlocked) hammer
# #would cause an accidental discharge?
#
# If the Tomcat is carried for defensive purposes, it is likely to be
# needed QUICKLY if at all.

That makes complete sense for any carry pistol.

# It would follow that the only viable
# carry mode would be chamber loaded, safety off (hammer down
# for a DA first shot, natch). The safety would permit a "cocked
# and locked" carry, but it is so small that just ignoring it is
# probably the best option. With its inertial firing pin, the Tomcat
# could conceiveably fire if dropped sufficiently hard onto its
# muzzle. Given the weight distribution of the piece, I can scarcely
# imagine it falling and landing on its muzzle. In any event, whether
# or not the thumb safety was engaged would make no difference.
#

Interesting. You seem to be suggesting that the only danger of an AD would
come from the gun landing on its muzzle, and not a sharp rap to the
(unsafetied) hammer, transferred to the firing pin.

Do I have that right? (no offense or sarcasm intended, honest)

Rosco Benson

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Apr 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/18/97

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#=========="Bill Nine Toes", 4/16/97==========
#Interesting. You seem to be suggesting that the only danger of an AD
#would
#come from the gun landing on its muzzle, and not a sharp rap to the
#(unsafetied) hammer, transferred to the firing pin.
#
#Do I have that right? (no offense or sarcasm intended, honest)

Kinda...the pistol in question has an inertial firing pin. That is, it
is shorter than the tunnel in which it rides and, when struck by
the hammer, flies forward (against spring tension) to strike and
fire the primer. This is the arrangement used in the original
Colt/Browning 1911 design and many, many others. It is an
immensely better system than the non-inertial systems of, for
example, the Colt Single Action Army and certain Spanish
autoloaders, where the firing pin is resting against the primer
and a light blow to the exposed hammer will fire the piece.
The Beretta Tomcat's thumb safety does not immobilize the
firing pin in any way, thus it is not a factor as to whether a
rap on the hammer would fire the piece.

Now, pistols that feature an inertial firing pin, but NOT a postive
firing pin block or lock, CAN fire if dropped from sufficient height
onto a hard surface, onto their muzzle. The firing pin's inertia
simply overcomes the spring tension against it and it is flung
forward to fire the primer. In a properly designed piece, the
force required to do this causes the circumstances under which
it could happen to be quite unlikely. It might take a drop from
11 feet, onto concrete, landing squarely on its muzzle to cause
it to fire. Other variables, such as the amount of spring tension
against the firing pin and the sensitivity of the primer involved
come into play as well.

There can be a "croquet-ball" effect, wherein a sharp blow to
the hammer can transfer enough energy to the inertial firing
pin to fling it forward and fire the piece. This would be an
exceedingly rare event and would require a very sensitive
primer, a very weak firing pin spring, an overly long firing
pin, or an exceptionally hard blow on the hammer...or
some combination of these factors.

All of this babble is to say that a piece equipped with an
inertial firing pin, as is the Beretta in question, is very
unlikely to fire in any "real-world" dropped-gun scenario.
The Beretta 950's, 20's, and 21's, which share the same
basic design as the newer .32, have been around for years
and there is no hue and cry over them "going off" if
dropped. Only a fool will say "never" in these sorts of
matters, but it is very unlikely.

Bill Nine Toes

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Apr 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/20/97

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Rosco Benson <rosco....@DaytonOH.NCR.COM> wrote in article

<5j9405$n...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
> ...

That is -- and I know this is going to be so fulsome as to sound sarcastic,
but I'm utterly serious -- an absolutely perfect response. If this was a
real-world risk, we almost certainly would have heard of it happening with
those other pistols, given the number and years they've been around.

Thank you.

Arnisgirl

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Apr 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM4/28/97

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Well,Guys, I don`t as yet own a Tomcat,but have owned an M-21 in .22lr
for many years. carried it as a back-up piece when I worked security jobs
in the past. I`ve dropped mine several times with no ill effects on the
gun or unintentional discharge. and a Rimfire would, in theory at least,
be more prone to that sort of thing than a centerfire round. Dropping a
loaded pistol is never a good idea,but in the real world it does
happen.thats why I carry only weapons I consider safe and reliable. my
M-21 falls into that catagory easily. just my opinion.

Safe Shooting, Pamela.