M1 Garand & M14 Reloading Dangers
HLopez3898
the cautions that Clint listed in His response.
1.The self loading design does not alert you sizing mistakes.
Each and every case should be measured with either a RCBS Precision Mic
or a Wilson case gauge to insure that the resized case is smaller that the
chamber headspace dimensions. This operation is but a small assurance that
the case will chamber and that the bolt will reach it's battery position.
2. This class of rifle is extremely brutal to brass. It gets sliced
(hardened steel lips of clip), dented, nicked, bent, stretched & otherwise
deformed during the loading, ignition,extraction & ejection phases. If you
continue to reload, DO NOT USE THE BRASS MORE THAN 3 TIMES MAX, (that's 2
reloads & that's pushing it).
In my experience, two has been the safe limit on brass reuse. If all of
us think about it, new brass is a lot cheaper that a new rifle or worse
yet a hand.
3.The M1 Garand (& M14) has a free floating firing pin that dents the
primer on loading.
From most knowledgeable people I've spoken with, the general concessus is
that Winchester has the primers closest to the military primer in
hardness. If some one out there has better information, please share it
with the rest of the reloading community. When it comes to seating
primers, use a primer pocket uniformer to make sure the pocket depth is
consistent for all the loads. One effect, is another small insurance gain
on your part, that a primer is not sticking it's little butt out there for
the firing pin to smack hard enough to set off.
I feel Clint's comments deserve a WELL DONE from those who reload for
service rifles. His first comment to DON'T DO IT, set a couple of people
off (myself included) the wrong way. But let's face the facts. There are
allot of reloaders (we all know), that load what seems to work, or that'll
fit, or the powder level looked O.K., or what ever, that we like to be at
least 20 feet away, when they touch off a round.
Lets not give Hillary the chance to have a headline like, "Rifle blows up
, injures three at DCM Match. Target shooting a Health Hazard!"
Keep on sharing info. and procedures. If you know where there is some
good military ball at a good price let us know (we have to get the
military brass somewhere you know!). Now go shoot'em up.
HANK
Mark Thomen
writes:
#<snip!>
#1. The self loading design does not alert you sizing mistakes.
#In bolt guns, lever guns, pump guns, etc., you FEEL the problem
#when attempting to load. You go back to the bench & find where
#& how the mistake occurred. Your forgiven. With a gas gun, you're
#looking down range, the BOLT MAY NOT BE IN BATTERY, & you pull the
#trigger. Such an event is called "out-of-battery explosion. While
#it is true there are several design charateristics in the Garand to
#prevent this from occurring, I can assure you that they can & do
#blow-up, from EXACTLY this kind of mistake. If you continue to
#reload, YOU MUST check each & every cartridge for all sizing
#dimensions (case length, headspace of case length, cartridge
#length, etc) to be certain THEY MEET ALL THE SAAMI SPECS!
Trimming and use of a Small-Base die (which is the standard
recommendation for ammo to be used in a semi-auto) is not a particularly
unusual step for the average reloader. The trimming, case inspection,
etc that you mention is recommended in every reloading manual I've seen
and in my mind makes that an accepted standard for the intelligent
reloader.
#2. This class of rifle is extremely brutal to brass. It gets
#sliced (hardened steel lips of clip), dented, nicked, bent,
#stretched & otherwise deformed during the loading, ignition,
#extraction & ejection phases. To properly resize all the necessary
#dimensions, you work harden the brass ON EACH RELOADING. Brittle
#brass will fail. If it fails back near the bolt face, lookout!
#50,000 PSI will peel the bottom lip of the bolt clean off, &
#dump the pressure into the mag well, inflating it beyond imagination.
#We have several Garands & M14's that now fit in nice little boxes
#back at the shop. If it fails up in the chamber, you'll extract
#a portion & leave some behind in the chamber. The rifle will try
#to load another round, the bolt will be out of battery, & you're
#looking down range. See #1 above. The U.S. & N.A.T.O. Military brass
#cases are thicker & stronger than virtually any commercial case,
#& they DO NOT RELOAD! If you continue to reload, DO NOT USE THE BRASS
#MORE THAN 3 TIMES MAX, (that's 2 reloads & that's pushing it).
I've never had brass fail other than a longitudinal split in the neck,
usually less than 1/16" in length. I take that batch of brass and heat
treat the necks and continue reloading. I predominantly load Federal
match brass and have gotten upwards of 15 reloads with no problems.
The military does not reload for a different reason - it has nothing to
do with their case strength, and thus shouldn't be used as the reason to
support your claim.
#3. The M1 Garand (& M14) has a free floating firing pin that dents
#the primer on loading. Inaddition, the bolt velocity on loading far
#exceeds that of a hand manipulated bolt found in other designs.
#Improperly seated primers, sensitive commercial primers, or primer
#pockets not perfectly prepared can cause premature primer detonation
#during the loading phase long before the bolt closes. A slam fire or
#an out of battery explosion will result. If you continue to reload,
#you MUST USE HARD MILITARY TYPE PRIMERS, & of course do everything
#else perfectly. ALSO, NEVER INSERT A ROUND INTO THE CHAMBER BY
#HAND! ALWAYS USE THE CLIP (or magazine for M14). This increases
#the bolt velocity beyond it's design parameters & will greatly
#magnify the dangers mention here.
This is good advice, but has nothing really to do with reloading (except
for the caution about hardened primers).
#
#Despite countless "expert" opinions, a perfectly serviceable M1,
#(& M14), can & does suffer catastrophic failures. The reason,
#99.99% of the time is RELOADS. While the M1 Garand, (& M14),
#is one of the safest rifles ever designed & produced, you have to
#treat'er right.
Yes, it does; and I've seen some perfectly good bolt guns at the range
that have likewise failed. Bad reloads are bad reloads.
#
#Proper powders & bullets are also vital to safe operation,
#though, as mentioned at the top, it is not discussed here.
Thanks for your info Clint; however I think what you've said here
(correct me if I'm wrong) is that reloading is perfectly safe for these
guns if you follow the reloading manuals and have appropriate quality
controls in place. This is something that EVERY reloader should do for
EVERY gun. I haven't seen here where you've provided a case (no pun
intended) for not reloading the M1/M1A, your initial contention. Did I
miss something?
Mark
Mark Thomen
#(snip)
#3.The M1 Garand (& M14) has a free floating firing pin that dents the
#primer on loading.
#
# From most knowledgeable people I've spoken with, the general concessus
is
#that Winchester has the primers closest to the military primer in
#hardness. If some one out there has better information, please share it
#with the rest of the reloading community. When it comes to seating
#primers, use a primer pocket uniformer to make sure the pocket depth is
#consistent for all the loads. One effect, is another small insurance
gain
#on your part, that a primer is not sticking it's little butt out there
for
#the firing pin to smack hard enough to set off.
Certainly; CCI No. 34 and 41 primers. The 34 is equivalent to the CCI
250 (Magnum), 41 is equivalent to the CCI 450 (magnum). They are
directly interchangeable with the 250/450. The 34 is recommended for
use in the 7.62 (Nato and x39), .30-06 military firearms, and the 41 is
recommended for the 5.56mm.
They are specifically designed to mil-spec sensitivity to minimize
slam-fires.
Mark
Unknown
# ...
# In my experience, two has been the safe limit on brass reuse. If all of
#us think about it, new brass is a lot cheaper that a new rifle or worse
#yet a hand.
How is using brass more than twice, a health hazard?
**********************
* Is the line ready? *
**********************
Clint McKee
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wrote:
##1. The self loading design does not alert you sizing mistakes.
##In bolt guns, lever guns, pump guns, etc., you FEEL the problem
##when attempting to load. You go back to the bench & find where
##& how the mistake occurred. Your forgiven. With a gas gun, you're
##looking down range, the BOLT MAY NOT BE IN BATTERY, & you pull the
##trigger. Such an event is called "out-of-battery explosion. While
##it is true there are several design charateristics in the Garand to
##prevent this from occurring, I can assure you that they can & do
##blow-up, from EXACTLY this kind of mistake. If you continue to
##reload, YOU MUST check each & every cartridge for all sizing
##dimensions (case length, headspace of case length, cartridge
##length, etc) to be certain THEY MEET ALL THE SAAMI SPECS!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
You wote:
#Trimming and use of a Small-Base die (which is the standard
#recommendation for ammo to be used in a semi-auto) is not a
particularly
#unusual step for the average reloader. The trimming, case inspection,
#etc that you mention is recommended in every reloading manual I've seen
#and in my mind makes that an accepted standard for the intelligent
#reloader.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please tell me all the reloading MANUALS that specify only small base
dies, & those that mention how often those dies produce incorrect cases
for these rifles in many machines/techniques, & those that mention full-
size resizing to saami spec, & those that demand you check each & every
case, and, on what gauge, &, how often to check the calibration of your
die & gauge? Which manual explains the catastrophic events that can take
place when a sizing error occurs in these rifles? Which manual have you
ever read that tells of death & injury. I don't want to be over
melodramatic here, but I do know of a new bolt gun owner who used his
buddy's reloads, &, first shot first kill! (I know, everybody's stupid!)
I also know of a supplier in the business who lost his eye firing
"factory" reloads in a Mini-M14. I also know that every year, a new crop
of blown-up rifles from reloads will be at the shop.( They send them in
for an honest tech inspection, since Fulton Armory is not affliated with
any manufacturer nor reloading Co).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I wrote:
##2. This class of rifle is extremely brutal to brass. It gets
##sliced (hardened steel lips of clip), dented, nicked, bent,
##stretched & otherwise deformed during the loading, ignition,
##extraction & ejection phases. To properly resize all the necessary
##dimensions, you work harden the brass ON EACH RELOADING. Brittle
##brass will fail. If it fails back near the bolt face, lookout!
##50,000 PSI will peel the bottom lip of the bolt clean off, &
##dump the pressure into the mag well, inflating it beyond imagination.
##We have several Garands & M14's that now fit in nice little boxes
##back at the shop. If it fails up in the chamber, you'll extract
##a portion & leave some behind in the chamber. The rifle will try
##to load another round, the bolt will be out of battery, & you're
##looking down range. See #1 above. The U.S. & N.A.T.O. Military brass
##cases are thicker & stronger than virtually any commercial case,
##& they DO NOT RELOAD! If you continue to reload, DO NOT USE THE BRASS
##MORE THAN 3 TIMES MAX, (that's 2 reloads & that's pushing it).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You wrote:
#I've never had brass fail other than a longitudinal split in the neck,
#usually less than 1/16" in length. I take that batch of brass and heat
#treat the necks and continue reloading. I predominantly load Federal
#match brass and have gotten upwards of 15 reloads with no problems.
#
#The military does not reload for a different reason - it has nothing to
#do with their case strength, and thus shouldn't be used as the reason
to
#support your claim.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
So, you HAVE HAD BRASS FAIL! Regarding the 15 reloads, God help you.
I know of no manual, to use your justification, that would endorse such
an extreme use of brass, for ANY RIFLE, let alone the M1 Garand/M14.
That you have not had a catastrophic failure is very helpful to your
flesh. That you will NEVER have such, remains to be seen. How old are
you, & how long have you reloaded for Military Gas Guns, and, honestly,
how many rounds have you reloaded (not how many times in total, but how
many once fired cases have you reloaded?). I very interested to know.
The Military reuses many, many things. If they do not use reloads, & the
advice given, even from the Marine Corps, who don't reload anything (but
have created some impressive, &, catastrophic loads) is to tell anyone
who will listen DO NOT RELOAD THIS BRASS, then why is this? No
commercial vested interest. THEY SELL IT TO THE HIGHEST SCRAP BIDDER.
Hope you don't get this machine gun ammo. Blown out to about 10 to
15 thous over saami!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I said:
##3. The M1 Garand (& M14) has a free floating firing pin that dents
##the primer on loading. Inaddition, the bolt velocity on loading far
##exceeds that of a hand manipulated bolt found in other designs.
##Improperly seated primers, sensitive commercial primers, or primer
##pockets not perfectly prepared can cause premature primer detonation
##during the loading phase long before the bolt closes. A slam fire or
##an out of battery explosion will result. If you continue to reload,
##you MUST USE HARD MILITARY TYPE PRIMERS, & of course do everything
##else perfectly. ALSO, NEVER INSERT A ROUND INTO THE CHAMBER BY
##HAND! ALWAYS USE THE CLIP (or magazine for M14). This increases
##the bolt velocity beyond it's design parameters & will greatly
##magnify the dangers mention here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You said:
#This is good advice, but has nothing really to do with reloading
(except
#for the caution about hardened primers).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm glad you found something of value about my post, but this section
is about a lot more than just hard primers, though terribly important.
Primer pocket preparation & primer seating are equally important.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I said:
##Despite countless "expert" opinions, a perfectly serviceable M1,
##(& M14), can & does suffer catastrophic failures. The reason,
##99.99% of the time is RELOADS. While the M1 Garand, (& M14),
##is one of the safest rifles ever designed & produced, you have to
##treat'er right.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You Said:
#Yes, it does; and I've seen some perfectly good bolt guns at the range
#that have likewise failed. Bad reloads are bad reloads.
##
##Proper powders & bullets are also vital to safe operation,
##though, as mentioned at the top, it is not discussed here.
#
#Thanks for your info Clint; however I think what you've said here
#(correct me if I'm wrong) is that reloading is perfectly safe for these
#guns if you follow the reloading manuals and have appropriate quality
#controls in place. This is something that EVERY reloader should do for
#EVERY gun. I haven't seen here where you've provided a case (no pun
#intended) for not reloading the M1/M1A, your initial contention. Did I
#miss something?
# Mark
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I think you missed the entire excersize! RELOADING is NOT perfectly
safe. IT IS INHERENTLY DANGEROUS! AND, amplified for certain firearms,
nominal for others. But STILL dangerous. Just today, again, a call from
a reloader who experienced a slam fire. Ruined his M1 Garand receiver.
NOT HURT! Thank goodness. The M14/M1 Garand design is incredibly
forgiving when it comes to severe injury, maiming or death. Let's not
any of us be the exception.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final note: Not really germane to this group, but I thought connected
to the habit often exposed in this media of being,"oh, so intelligent"!
The Japanese have often been considered the world's expert on
earthquakes & the remediation of their effects. Indeed, they have been
somewhat arrogant in there critique's of America. The quake in Kobe had
unimaginable catastrophic effects for the Japanese. How could it be that
such intelligent research, wise spending & universal compliance could
be so sadly inadequate? The model they used assumed horizontal sheer
forces. The quake produced vertical sheer forces. The unkown continues
to confound us all. The humble listen to the wind. The arrogant tell you
they have the answer. I claim no expertise. I claim no perfect answer.
I only report the wind's effect.
Clint
Fulton Armory
Herbert Leong
feel is the truth and is not any type, shape, or form of flamebait.
In article <3lsqr5$m...@xring.cs.umd.edu> Clint wrote:
##I've never had brass fail other than a longitudinal split in the neck,
##usually less than 1/16" in length. I take that batch of brass and heat
##treat the necks and continue reloading. I predominantly load Federal
##match brass and have gotten upwards of 15 reloads with no problems.
##
##The military does not reload for a different reason - it has nothing to
The military does not reload because they would rather not take to time
out (creating a new MOS, writing up a jillion specs, etc.) to train people
to do it. Frankly, at the quanities of ammo that the military buys, it is
not cost effective to reload. The average guy will probably never be able
to afford the billions of rounds of ammo that the military buys at a time.
Snipers and shooting team members, will often handload ammo because the
resulting rounds are *much* better than issue fodder and they can put the
extra performance to good use. Joe Grunt, on the other hand, will not be
able to and will probably not be able to tell the difference between match
loads and issue stuff.
##do with their case strength, and thus shouldn't be used as the reason
#to
##support your claim.
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
#So, you HAVE HAD BRASS FAIL! Regarding the 15 reloads, God help you.
#I know of no manual, to use your justification, that would endorse such
#an extreme use of brass, for ANY RIFLE, let alone the M1 Garand/M14.
Well, the NRA pub "The M1 Rifle" (the one with Bart on the cover that I
still need to send to him so he can sign :) says in the first two paragraphs
of the page six sidebar (buy the pub for the picture if you want to see it):
"I have been reloading for my .30-'06 about a year, with excellent
success so far. Now, however, several of my cartridge cases have a crack
like the one in the fired case lillustrated. Is this a sign of poor brass,
or a result of some incorrect step in reloading?--F.N.S."
"Answer: In most cases this failure (see arrow in in cut) is simply
a sign the case is at last worn out. It is caused by the repeated stretching
and squeezing of the brass at that point, as the case is fired and resized
over and over. It is not dangerous, since the case body behind it seals the
chamber against any gass excape to the rear."
In the 5th paragraph of the page six sidebar:
"While case life varies with brass quality and sizing die
dimensions, in .30-'06 it probably averages at least 20 firings. After
that many, you may fairly conclude that the case owes you nothing more.
Cartridge case cost in reloading is therefore very small."
#That you have not had a catastrophic failure is very helpful to your
#flesh. That you will NEVER have such, remains to be seen. How old are
If you read the data published, cross check your data, work your lods
up, are cautious, and you obey the safety rules, you will keep your
flesh intact.
#you, & how long have you reloaded for Military Gas Guns, and, honestly,
#how many rounds have you reloaded (not how many times in total, but how
#many once fired cases have you reloaded?). I very interested to know.
Me? All I use are (at least) once fired Mil spec cases for my .223! :-)
#The Military reuses many, many things. If they do not use reloads, & the
They also toss a lot of resusable stuff, too.
#advice given, even from the Marine Corps, who don't reload anything (but
#have created some impressive, &, catastrophic loads) is to tell anyone
#who will listen DO NOT RELOAD THIS BRASS, then why is this? No
#commercial vested interest. THEY SELL IT TO THE HIGHEST SCRAP BIDDER.
#Hope you don't get this machine gun ammo. Blown out to about 10 to
#15 thous over saami!
I belive that the USMC arms failures were with the m9 *pistols* shooting
9mm *Carbine* (ie submachinegun) ammo.
While your fears are valid ones, Clint, I feel that they are a bit on the
overly cautious side. While there is probably no harm in this, it smacks
of the "Drive 55.001 miles an hour, and you will be struck dead by the
Hand of God" attitude.
/herb
--
gr...@futon.sfsu.edu
gr...@wet.com [Paste Standard Disclaimer Here]
Mark Thomen
writes:
#
#Hi Mark!
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
#I wrote:
#
###(snipped out)
### If you continue to
###reload, YOU MUST check each & every cartridge for all sizing
###dimensions (case length, headspace of case length, cartridge
###length, etc) to be certain THEY MEET ALL THE SAAMI SPECS!
#---------------------------------------------------------------------
#You wote:
#
##Trimming and use of a Small-Base die (which is the standard
##recommendation for ammo to be used in a semi-auto) is not a
#particularly
##unusual step for the average reloader. The trimming, case inspection,
##etc that you mention is recommended in every reloading manual I've
seen
##and in my mind makes that an accepted standard for the intelligent
##reloader.
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
#Please tell me all the reloading MANUALS that specify only small base
#dies, & those that mention how often those dies produce incorrect cases
#for these rifles in many machines/techniques, & those that mention
full-
#size resizing to saami spec, & those that demand you check each & every
#case, and, on what gauge, &, how often to check the calibration of your
#die & gauge? Which manual explains the catastrophic events that can
take
#place when a sizing error occurs in these rifles?
Whoa there, Clint, slow down!! Go back and read the sentence I left in
your append, and then compare it with my response - they AGREE. And
I've checked the Sierra, Speer, and Hornady manuals and they all three
discuss at length AND EMPHASIZE the importance of doing just what you
describe. They all three discuss the problems of full-length sizing
for semi-automatic (or lever or slide action) guns and that SMALL BASE
DIES may be necessary to chamber correctly (except for the Hornady
manual).
As for the possible "catastrophic events" they all emphasize attention
to the events that can lead to them (high primers, overcharging, excess
headspace, etc) but they don't get GORY about it.
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
#You wrote:
#
##I've never had brass fail other than a longitudinal split in the neck,
##usually less than 1/16" in length. I take that batch of brass and
heat
##treat the necks and continue reloading. I predominantly load Federal
##match brass and have gotten upwards of 15 reloads with no problems.
##
##The military does not reload for a different reason - it has nothing
to
##do with their case strength, and thus shouldn't be used as the reason
#to
##support your claim.
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
#So, you HAVE HAD BRASS FAIL! Regarding the 15 reloads, God help you.
#I know of no manual, to use your justification, that would endorse such
#an extreme use of brass, for ANY RIFLE, let alone the M1 Garand/M14.
Yes, I have had brass fail; I have not had a CATASTROPHIC failure.
And I know of no manual that recommends using number of reloads as the
criteria for when to discard brass. That is because it is simply
unreliable and may result in the premature discarding of perfectly good
brass.
#That you have not had a catastrophic failure is very helpful to your
#flesh. That you will NEVER have such, remains to be seen. How old are
#you, & how long have you reloaded for Military Gas Guns, and, honestly,
#how many rounds have you reloaded (not how many times in total, but how
#many once fired cases have you reloaded?). I very interested to know.
45, 20 years, and too many thousands to estimate (over 1500 since the
start of '95). Hope this helps.
#The Military reuses many, many things. If they do not use reloads, &
the
#advice given, even from the Marine Corps, who don't reload anything
(but
#have created some impressive, &, catastrophic loads) is to tell anyone
#who will listen DO NOT RELOAD THIS BRASS, then why is this? No
#commercial vested interest. THEY SELL IT TO THE HIGHEST SCRAP BIDDER.
he military does not reuse brass, it's that simple. They want
reliability, to be sure - which is why they remove ENTIRE LOTS of ammo
from use for certain failures, or a certain number of hangfires/misfires
(don't remember the exact criteria, sorry). But that has nothing to do
with why they don't reload. They simply consider ammunition as
expendable, and they had unlimited money. We'll see if they start using
reloads in the "new" military...
#Hope you don't get this machine gun ammo. Blown out to about 10 to
#15 thous over saami!
I'm not sure I see the point; brass is very ductile, the first resizing
will bring it down to size with no significant work-hardening.
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
#I said:
#(#3 snipped here)
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
#You said:
#
##This is good advice, but has nothing really to do with reloading
#(except
##for the caution about hardened primers).
#--------------------------------------------------------------------
#I'm glad you found something of value about my post, but this section
#is about a lot more than just hard primers, though terribly important.
#Primer pocket preparation & primer seating are equally important.
Again, it has nothing specifically to do with the M1/M1A; high primers
can cause serious problems for bolt guns as well. And everything you
describe is carefully pointed out in the reloading manuals as
information pertinent to reloading FOR ANY GUN. That was my point.
#---------------------------------------------------------------------
I wrote:
##I haven't seen here where you've provided a case (no pun
##intended) for not reloading the M1/M1A, your initial contention. Did
I
##miss something?
## Mark
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
#Yes, I think you missed the entire excersize! RELOADING is NOT
perfectly
#safe. IT IS INHERENTLY DANGEROUS! AND, amplified for certain firearms,
#nominal for others. But STILL dangerous.
#(snip)
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, I did not miss the entire exercise. Bad choice of words on my part
- of course reloading is not "PERFECTLY safe." But WHEN THE RULES ARE
FOLLOWED, AND COMMON SENSE IS USED it is VERY safe. Reloading manuals
provide a good deal of information on how to do it safely. Being
well-informed BEFORE you start pumping the arm is important. But I
think you're being overly melodramatic when you state outright that it
should NEVER be done for these two guns. There are tens of thousands
(probably hundreds of thousands) of people doing it for these guns every
year, all over the country. That some failures occur is inevitable -
just as they are inevitable for some bolt guns.
Much of what you emphasized echoes the very information provided in
reloading manuals and other texts about how to SAFELY reload. Thus, the
information you provide is further proof of the importance of reloading
safely. Ignoring these rules will eventually get you in trouble with
ANY gun. I'm sure you see a lot of bent metal, and probably a lot of it
can be attributed to "bad" reloads. That doesn't mean ALL reloads are
bad, and that ONLY two service rifles are the victim.
I certainly believe in safety (witness my being flamed for weeks for
advising against tumbling loaded brass). But to draw the conclusion
that ALL reloading is bad for these two service rifles does, I believe,
fly in the face of the tens/hundreds of thousands of yearly shooters
that have no problems.
Peace,
Mark
Clint McKee
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Your point:
#The military does not reload because they would rather not take to time
#out (creating a new MOS, writing up a jillion specs, etc.) to train
people
#to do it. Frankly, at the quanities of ammo that the military buys, it
is
#not cost effective to reload. The average guy will probably never be
able
#to afford the billions of rounds of ammo that the military buys at a
time.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My point:
The Military would never even try to write the specs for reloading
because they are clearly aware of the huge risk involved in any
reloading scheme. Multiply that times the billions of rounds you
mention, &, like the conversion of mass to energy (E=mc2) it only takes
a wee bit of error to create a huge amount of failure. Besides, they
just won't be able to get all the expert reloaders from rec.guns, so
who's going to do it!:) One caveat: When individual safety is
subordinated to the imperative of survival, then our Military WILL
& surely has, reloaded.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Your point:
#Snipers and shooting team members, will often handload ammo because
the
#resulting rounds are *much* better than issue fodder and they can put
the
#extra performance to good use. Joe Grunt, on the other hand, will not
be
#able to and will probably not be able to tell the difference between
match
#loads and issue stuff.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
My point:
1. Real snipers, by definition, are at extreme risk. Not us guys. Do you
want to assume that level of liability & use it in the argument for
reloads? Besides, the few real snipers I've known, used issue LC Match,
which BTW, is comprehensively satifactory for 99.99% of our listeners.
Besides, that "fodder" has scored some incredible feats, by people who
know how to shoot military rifles. (they're the .01%)
2. Military shooting team members do push the outer envelope when it
comes to cartridges (they're in the Army now!). However, I am not aware
of ANY RELOAD USE! It is true, that a small number of MTU's most
certainly DO design, explore & test new cartridge combo's. But the
components are virgin. Besides, I believe that most all important
inner service rifle matches require a "commonality of cartridge",
so that the inherent ability of the marksman will dominate.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your point:
###do with their case strength, and thus shouldn't be used as the reason
##to
###support your claim.-
##So, you HAVE HAD BRASS FAIL! Regarding the 15 reloads, God help you.
##I know of no manual, to use your justification, that would endorse
such
##an extreme use of brass, for ANY RIFLE, let alone the M1 Garand/M14.
#
#Well, the NRA pub "The M1 Rifle" (the one with Bart on the cover that I
#still need to send to him so he can sign :) says in the first two
paragraphs
#of the page six sidebar (buy the pub for the picture if you want to see
it):
#
# "I have been reloading for my .30-'06 about a year, with
excellent
#success so far. Now, however, several of my cartridge cases have a
crack
#like the one in the fired case lillustrated. Is this a sign of poor
brass,
#or a result of some incorrect step in reloading?--F.N.S."
#
# "Answer: In most cases this failure (see arrow in in cut) is
simply
#a sign the case is at last worn out. It is caused by the repeated
stretching
#and squeezing of the brass at that point, as the case is fired and
resized
#over and over. It is not dangerous, since the case body behind it
seals the
#chamber against any gass excape to the rear."
#
#In the 5th paragraph of the page six sidebar:
# "While case life varies with brass quality and sizing die
#dimensions, in .30-'06 it probably averages at least 20 firings. After
#that many, you may fairly conclude that the case owes you nothing more.
#Cartridge case cost in reloading is therefore very small."
#
##That you have not had a catastrophic failure is very helpful to your
##flesh. That you will NEVER have such, remains to be seen. How old are
#If you read the data published, cross check your data, work your lods
#up, are cautious, and you obey the safety rules, you will keep your
#flesh intact.
#
##you, & how long have you reloaded for Military Gas Guns, and,
honestly,
##how many rounds have you reloaded (not how many times in total, but
how
##many once fired cases have you reloaded?). I very interested to know.
#Me? All I use are (at least) once fired Mil spec cases for my .223!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
My point:
1. I still have not heard you mention any manual that endorses such
extreme use of brass in a gas gun. (your answer to my original point
stated manuals indicating such extreme use of brass in gas guns)
2. To wait for the brass to fail as an indication that the case is
"at last worn out" is, I believe irresponsible. (at least for gas guns,
& that is what we are discussing, though I should think for ANY gun)
Should the case fail at the bolt face (& they can when the brass is so
severly spent) what you've got here is what's commonly known as
catastrophic failure. 50,000 psi of blow-torch & pressue expanding
anything in it's path. Since the stock & you don't inflate particularly
well, it's a BIG problem.
3.If you think everything written in all NRA publications, for sale BTW,
is absolutely the answer, then I have no positive reply.
4. Regarding BART: I think, from what little I know of him, that he is
probably a VERY REMARKABLE PERSON! Someone I would be grateful to learn
from. (I claim no expertise, only modest extrapolation of those things
I know to exist, as I see them, not virtually, but really!) If you,
or BART are ammenable, please e-mail me, & lets begin a dialoge in
privacy. I would be honored.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your point:
##The Military reuses many, many things. If they do not use reloads, &
the
#They also toss a lot of resusable stuff, too.
#
##advice given, even from the Marine Corps, who don't reload anything
(but
##have created some impressive, &, catastrophic loads) is to tell anyone
##who will listen DO NOT RELOAD THIS BRASS, then why is this? No
##commercial vested interest. THEY SELL IT TO THE HIGHEST SCRAP BIDDER.
##Hope you don't get this machine gun ammo. Blown out to about 10 to
##15 thous over saami!
#I belive that the USMC arms failures were with the m9 *pistols*
shooting
#9mm *Carbine* (ie submachinegun) ammo.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My point:
I am not informed on the M9. I can tell you USMC shooters have been
SEVERLY injured (perhaps more) in the exploration of the "outer
envelope". Further, I can tell you the position of the USMC at
Quantico, Va. is "DO NOT PICK UP THE SPENT BRASS!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your point:
#While your fears are valid ones, Clint, I feel that they are a bit on
the
#overly cautious side. While there is probably no harm in this, it
smacks
#of the "Drive 55.001 miles an hour, and you will be struck dead by the
#Hand of God" attitude.
#/herb
---------------------------------------------------------------------
My point:
I am glad you find some validity in my post.
1. More people do die from cars than guns, I agree. Though I'm not
convinced it's GOD, or, 55.001 miles per hour.
2. I would like to think a more appropriate analogy would be to imagine
20 million (pulled # from the air) pilots mixing up some fuel for YOUR
PLANE RIDE, BECAUSE THEY COULD MAKE IT CHEAPER, & OH, NATURALLY BETTER!
3. We have both invested a great deal of our precious time to make
points designed to educate, illuminate, & explore. I thank you for your
time & interest in this subject.
Clint
Fulton Armory
P.S.: Please have BART e-mail me!
Clint McKee
writes:
#
#In <3lsqr5$m...@xring.cs.umd.edu> wcm...@ix.netcom.com (Clint McKee)
#writes:
#
##
##Hi Mark!
##----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
##I wrote:
##
####(snipped out)
#### If you continue to
####reload, YOU MUST check each & every cartridge for all sizing
####dimensions (case length, headspace of case length, cartridge
####length, etc) to be certain THEY MEET ALL THE SAAMI SPECS!
##---------------------------------------------------------------------
##You wote:
##
###Trimming and use of a Small-Base die (which is the standard
###recommendation for ammo to be used in a semi-auto) is not a
##particularly
###unusual step for the average reloader. The trimming, case
inspection,
###etc that you mention is recommended in every reloading manual I've
#seen
###and in my mind makes that an accepted standard for the intelligent
###reloader.
##----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
#-
##Please tell me all the reloading MANUALS that specify only small base
##dies, & those that mention how often those dies produce incorrect
cases
##for these rifles in many machines/techniques, & those that mention
#full-
##size resizing to saami spec, & those that demand you check each &
every
##case, and, on what gauge, &, how often to check the calibration of
your
##die & gauge? Which manual explains the catastrophic events that can
#take
##place when a sizing error occurs in these rifles?
#
#Whoa there, Clint, slow down!! Go back and read the sentence I left in
#your append, and then compare it with my response - they AGREE. And
#I've checked the Sierra, Speer, and Hornady manuals and they all three
#discuss at length AND EMPHASIZE the importance of doing just what you
#describe. They all three discuss the problems of full-length sizing
#for semi-automatic (or lever or slide action) guns and that SMALL BASE
#DIES may be necessary to chamber correctly (except for the Hornady
#manual).
#
#As for the possible "catastrophic events" they all emphasize attention
#to the events that can lead to them (high primers, overcharging, excess
#headspace, etc) but they don't get GORY about it.
#
#
##----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
#
##You wrote:
##
###I've never had brass fail other than a longitudinal split in the
neck,
###usually less than 1/16" in length. I take that batch of brass and
#heat
###treat the necks and continue reloading. I predominantly load Federal
###match brass and have gotten upwards of 15 reloads with no problems.
###
###The military does not reload for a different reason - it has nothing
#to
###do with their case strength, and thus shouldn't be used as the reason
##to
###support your claim.
##----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
##So, you HAVE HAD BRASS FAIL! Regarding the 15 reloads, God help you.
##I know of no manual, to use your justification, that would endorse
such
##an extreme use of brass, for ANY RIFLE, let alone the M1 Garand/M14.
#
#Yes, I have had brass fail; I have not had a CATASTROPHIC failure.
#And I know of no manual that recommends using number of reloads as the
#criteria for when to discard brass. That is because it is simply
#unreliable and may result in the premature discarding of perfectly good
#brass.
#
##That you have not had a catastrophic failure is very helpful to your
##flesh. That you will NEVER have such, remains to be seen. How old are
##you, & how long have you reloaded for Military Gas Guns, and,
honestly,
##how many rounds have you reloaded (not how many times in total, but
how
##many once fired cases have you reloaded?). I very interested to know.
#
#45, 20 years, and too many thousands to estimate (over 1500 since the
#start of '95). Hope this helps.
#
##The Military reuses many, many things. If they do not use reloads, &
#the
##advice given, even from the Marine Corps, who don't reload anything
#(but
##have created some impressive, &, catastrophic loads) is to tell anyone
##who will listen DO NOT RELOAD THIS BRASS, then why is this? No
##commercial vested interest. THEY SELL IT TO THE HIGHEST SCRAP BIDDER.
#
#
#he military does not reuse brass, it's that simple. They want
#reliability, to be sure - which is why they remove ENTIRE LOTS of ammo
#from use for certain failures, or a certain number of
hangfires/misfires
#(don't remember the exact criteria, sorry). But that has nothing to do
#with why they don't reload. They simply consider ammunition as
#expendable, and they had unlimited money. We'll see if they start
using
#reloads in the "new" military...
#
##Hope you don't get this machine gun ammo. Blown out to about 10 to
##15 thous over saami!
#
#I'm not sure I see the point; brass is very ductile, the first resizing
#will bring it down to size with no significant work-hardening.
##----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
##I said:
##(#3 snipped here)
##----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
##You said:
##
###This is good advice, but has nothing really to do with reloading
##(except
###for the caution about hardened primers).
##--------------------------------------------------------------------
##I'm glad you found something of value about my post, but this section
##is about a lot more than just hard primers, though terribly important.
##Primer pocket preparation & primer seating are equally important.
#
#Again, it has nothing specifically to do with the M1/M1A; high primers
#can cause serious problems for bolt guns as well. And everything you
#describe is carefully pointed out in the reloading manuals as
#information pertinent to reloading FOR ANY GUN. That was my point.
##---------------------------------------------------------------------
#I wrote:
###I haven't seen here where you've provided a case (no pun
###intended) for not reloading the M1/M1A, your initial contention. Did
#I
###miss something?
### Mark
##----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
##Yes, I think you missed the entire excersize! RELOADING is NOT
#perfectly
##safe. IT IS INHERENTLY DANGEROUS! AND, amplified for certain firearms,
##nominal for others. But STILL dangerous.
##(snip)
##----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
#
#No, I did not miss the entire exercise. Bad choice of words on my part
#- of course reloading is not "PERFECTLY safe." But WHEN THE RULES ARE
#FOLLOWED, AND COMMON SENSE IS USED it is VERY safe. Reloading manuals
#provide a good deal of information on how to do it safely. Being
#well-informed BEFORE you start pumping the arm is important. But I
#think you're being overly melodramatic when you state outright that it
#should NEVER be done for these two guns. There are tens of thousands
#(probably hundreds of thousands) of people doing it for these guns
every
#year, all over the country. That some failures occur is inevitable -
#just as they are inevitable for some bolt guns.
#
#Much of what you emphasized echoes the very information provided in
#reloading manuals and other texts about how to SAFELY reload. Thus, the
#information you provide is further proof of the importance of reloading
#safely. Ignoring these rules will eventually get you in trouble with
#ANY gun. I'm sure you see a lot of bent metal, and probably a lot of
it
#can be attributed to "bad" reloads. That doesn't mean ALL reloads are
#bad, and that ONLY two service rifles are the victim.
#
#I certainly believe in safety (witness my being flamed for weeks for
#advising against tumbling loaded brass). But to draw the conclusion
#that ALL reloading is bad for these two service rifles does, I believe,
#fly in the face of the tens/hundreds of thousands of yearly shooters
#that have no problems.
#
# Peace,
# Mark
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mark!
I never said all reloads were bad. I never said reloading safely
was not possible.
1. How many manuals insist on checking all measures of cartridge
geometry, especially for gas guns, detailing how one might accomplish
this feat? (& how do they know the real headspace?)
2. How many manuals discuss the amplification of risk inherent in gas
guns?
3. How many manuals discuss gas gun's need for hard primers?
4. How many manuals explore the question:"where does all the brass I'm
trimming come from? Or, that military gas guns DO NOT SUPPORT THE BRASS
in a similiar way found in many other rifle designs.
5 When you resize a case blown out 15 thous or more, it does work
harden the brass.(didn't say it destroyed it)
6. Many other issues are discussed in my recent post on this very issue.
Please look for it, & let me know, O.K.?
7. I can think of no better sign off than "peace.
Thank you for your interest, & positive demeanor re this visceral
subject.
Clint
Fulton Armory
HLope...@aol.com
hazard?"
Well where do we start with this question? First let me say that my
statement was made as a general guide line for all shooters who use a service
rifle. You might say that you are an above average loader and that you have
enough experience to know what is occurring during all phases of the rifles
functioning. That's fine, not everyone on the net may have the same level of
expertise that you have accrued. I feel Clint McKee's initial message was
meant to alert all reloaders, no matter how good or bad, their reloading
habits are.
The problems with brass start the first time we resize
it. Depending on whether a Small Base or a standard Full Length are used. To
the Small Base first, the SB allow the reloader to size the brass down to a
SAMMI spec. like new from the factory. This, on the surface seems the fastest
and easiest way to go. You get a case that will fit the chamber without any
problems, and you are assured of reliable functioning. Now to the problem
with this, any time we resize a piece of brass we are forcing the brass to
assume a new form. It may look like we just move a little material here and
there, not quite! The brass in a case, when resize, migrates quite a bit.
When the die starts to compress the case, the brass being compressed starts
to "flow" in another direction. Because the case is tapered, the head or
bottom of the case has the most brass displaced by the compression operation
of the die. All this brass flows towards the top of the cartridge, that's why
we end up with the case longer that when we started the resizing operation.
On the surface, this doesn't seem like allot of brass moving around, but this
is where one of the problems starts. The brass moving upwards is leaving the
base area of the case, and as the brass migrates, it makes the base thinner
and thinner. Soon enough the area just above the head is thin enough to fail.
You have probably heard people talk about case head separation, "OOP's there
it is". Next the case head is ejected and a new round is picked up from the
clip and fed into the chamber, if we're real lucky, the bolt jams the case
half way in and we see it. Enough of the previous case prevents the bolt from
moving forward enough to allow the bolt to reach a battery position. If it
didn't, well, just think about the firing pin hitting a cartridge, jammed
within a piece of another, and what could happen. Granted this is a worst case
scenario, but they said the Space Shuttle was as safe as you could be,
too!!!! I think Clint has seen more than his share of rifles that have not
failed to operate properly, but operators who failed to operate within the
correct and acceptable procedures. I know, this couldn't happen to US, and
your probably correct, but what about the person who isn't as attentive to
detail as most competitive shooters are?
Full Length sizing needs addressing also. FL does not compress
the head area to the degree that SB's does. Remember that SB's are primarily
designed to return the case to a dimension that can be used in any self
loading type firearm and expect normal functioning. FL's tend to resize the
case to meet the average dimensions for the particular cartridges. This as
you can well see, leads to a smaller movement at the head area. The fly in
the soup, is the possibility that your chamber is either larger or smaller
that the average. The FL (and the SB also) is either sizing too much or too
little for your particular rifle. The saving procedure is to check the
resized case with a RCBS Precision Mic or a adjustable Case Length Gauge from
Wilson. Basically the two gauges can tell if the case has been sized enough
to fit the average chamber headspace dimension. Just about now you're saying,
gee I'll just get the gauge and that's, that!! That is where the trap is
sprung! In gas guns, the area just ahead of the head needs to be checked
also. How much does it differ from a new case and one that has been fired and
sized. We need a small amount of clearance at the chamber at this point, not
a large one, but one that allows the case to slip in without any
interference.This is why the Small Base die came into being. Right here we
could be sizing the head enough with the FL, but compressing the overall
length of the case, to effectively give us a case that just rattled around in
the chamber. That condition could lead to other problems, blown or pierced
primers, and some others that I don't need to go into. Just about now you're
saying, "do you do any reloading for your gas gun?" You better believe it,
and I'll put any of my ammo against any factory ammo, and I know I'll kick
it's butt every time. The real issue here is the attention that needs to
exist to safely load ammo for the gas guns. As you can see, the brass is
moving allot, and this tends to make it brittle and hard. The brass has lost
it's ability to flex enough during firing and resizing, sooner or later it'll
crack. More often that not, it cracks after being fired, the straw that broke
the camels back. I use the FL's and just make it a habit to check the die set
up when I start, that's all. Continue to reload and enjoy the satisfaction of
knowing that you produce the most accurate ammo possible for your rifle or
pistol. But always be aware of the inherent danger that lies therein. That's
why I feel we should limit the number of times that brass should be reused
for SERVICE RIFLES (the benchrest guys would start yelling if I didn't put in
service rifles. Brass use for my Varmint rifle is a different matter!!!).
HANK
Steve West
Although the information in this thread is very useful, I need this
discussion distilled into a conclusion that I can understand.
If I have successfully reloaded for a .30-06 Browning BAR MkI for
several years, am I capable of reloading for the Garand, or are there
other issues that make the Garand more dangerous wrt to reloading?
thanks
swest
Bev Clark/Steve Gallacci
issues that have come up on the board, have noticed some trends in the
flow. There is a lot of adsolutist declarations as to what may or may not
be done (in this case reloading for M1, and by extension, service rifles
in general) with the implicate assumption that we practitioners are
apallingly stupid and that only with writ in stone directives, we would
all be seriously self-inflicted within a week.
In the case of reloading and brass safety, the assumed tone is that no
one actually looks at their brass. Even a fairly superficial look-see can
tell when there is a problem of case weakness or excessive length or what
have you that can either be remedied or have the case discareded.
I check every case, every time I reload, and do the whole trim and
chamfer bit on necks and re-anneal as nessisary, and have not had one
case failure in all my reloading of 7.62x39, .223, 7.62x54, and 6.5x55
for self-loading service rifles. I have had some small neck splits, but
that ususally comes up during the final neck sizing.
If a shooter has a ton of brass and just grinds away at mass reloading,
then, yes, setting an arbitrary reload life would be prudent, as
individual inspection would be a pain. But a careful reloader who is
willing to give individual attention to each round can get consierably
more life out each piece of brass. (and personally, given the fickle
nature of popular opinion and politics, I would never rely on the
assumption that there will always be plenty of new brass and other
consumables to support my shooting habit)
Unknown
#2. Military shooting team members do push the outer envelope when it
#comes to cartridges (they're in the Army now!). However, I am not aware
#of ANY RELOAD USE! It is true, that a small number of MTU's most
#certainly DO design, explore & test new cartridge combo's. But the
#components are virgin.
The military rifle teams may or may not use once fired brass but they do
not use factory ammo for distance from and beyond 600yd. They may use
primed new brass, but they do load their own long range cartridges.
Stefan
#3. How many manuals discuss gas gun's need for hard primers?
Military teams tend to use Federal match ammo and I think that Federal
would use their own primers which, I think, are not among the hardest
primers.
BTW, Clint, could you please edit out the irrelevant portion of the quoted
messages in your reponses. I tend to save your posts and need to keep
my storage space down :-)
**********************
Coste
doesn't care about reloading for Garands it will be obvious...
My question is... I've read that to shoot heavy loads (i.e. > 180gr)
in a Garand, you can drill a 1/16" hole through a SOLID gas plug
to relieve some of the pressure...therefore eliminating op-rod
problems but still maintaining proper functioning of the rifle.
Is this antiquated crap, or is this feasable? The only source I
have currently documented is Roy Dunlap's book "Gun Owner's Book of
Care, Repair and Improvement," 1974. I'm sure the "safe" response
is, "don't tinker with it," but does anybody do this? Seems like it
would work and would provide some measure of safety for heavy bullet/
heavy load rounds. Reloads or not. (maybe even Hornady LM?)
Just trying to throw a monkey wrench into this otherwise oh so civil
discussion....
:)
TLC
tlc...@mtu.edu
:wq
:
HLopez3898
When Clint McKee posted his opinion, I feel it was to the inexperienced
reloader, who had very little practical experience loading for gas guns.
Allot of the responses I see here, sound like a bunch of little kids
telling the adult, that they "can't be told what to do". Do you feel so
threatened by one or two people trying to shed a little light on a
practice that has caused pain and injury to others? Steve Gallacci
mentioned that he re-anneals as necessary. How many new reloaders do you
know that even know the reason for doing this? Maybe the ones you have
taken the time to sit down and pass along your knowledge to. This is what
this whole conversation started out to accomplish. Yes I set a arbitrary
reload life for my brass, I've got better things to do! The old gas gun
brass is used in the varmint rifles till it starts showing indications of
weakness. And no, I'm not made out of money, it's just that my service
rifles are either family gifts that I tend to be very cautious with, or
it's the newest M1A I just got. I commend Steve Gallacci, who has the
expertise to anneal his brass. I don't know how, but I'm glad that he is
making good use of the ability to do it. I wouldn't do it, and that's my
choice! Steve sounds like he takes a great deal of time in preparing his
loads, he's an exception to the rule. As to the question of whether Clint
thinks we're all a bunch idiots? Not hardly, He's just seen what all of us
have seen at the range, and on the firing line, and then bury our heads
in the ground about. If you have never seen someone at the range make a
mistake, that could have been harmful to the equipment, or the shooter,
you either are very lucky or you shoot alone.(A question for everyone,
when that person screwed up, did you just avoid being near them or did you
try to offer an experienced and helpful thought?) Are people stupid and
unable to follow the rules? Have proven procedures failed before? The
Space Shuttle was safe !!!! That was the worst reloading mishap of all
time!!! I'm not saying all this to put anyone down!!!! I'm saying, share
the knowledge and information that you have accrued with those who are
coming up in the ranks of new reloaders. Explain annealing, case head
separation, the meaning and measuring of headspace, the correct cleaning
procedures, etc.......We cannot be too careful in our chosen sport, a
sport that has the potential to kill or mutilate, but we can be too
complacent and careless!!!
And yes, reloading is safe, and so is the Space Shuttle, but we've have
more respect for the dangers of the Shuttle now.
HANK
Mark Thomen
disagree. I feel that when educated, common sense is used, and
accepted standards of reloading are followed, reloading is VERY safe -
even for "gas guns." You feel that the potential for catastrophic
failures is high enough that reloading is never safe for "gas guns."
In <3m0rv1$2...@xring.cs.umd.edu> wcm...@ix.netcom.com (Clint McKee)
writes:
#----------------------------------------------------------------------
#My point:
#The Military would never even try to write the specs for reloading
#because they are clearly aware of the huge risk involved in any
#reloading scheme. Multiply that times the billions of rounds you
#mention, &, like the conversion of mass to energy (E=mc2) it only takes
#a wee bit of error to create a huge amount of failure. Besides, they
#just won't be able to get all the expert reloaders from rec.guns, so
#who's going to do it!:) One caveat: When individual safety is
#subordinated to the imperative of survival, then our Military WILL
#& surely has, reloaded.
The military has never shied away from writing incomprehensible, overly
complex specs before - why would this be any different? No, I believe
the reason is that it is not economically feasible, given they own a few
plants that can make the stuff up fresh.
#--------------------------------------------------------------------
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
#My point:
#1. Real snipers, by definition, are at extreme risk. Not us guys. Do
you
#want to assume that level of liability & use it in the argument for
#reloads? Besides, the few real snipers I've known, used issue LC Match,
#which BTW, is comprehensively satifactory for 99.99% of our listeners.
#Besides, that "fodder" has scored some incredible feats, by people who
#know how to shoot military rifles. (they're the .01%)
Anyone carrying a weapon in the military in combat is at extreme risk.
It's the nature of the job. Military snipers carry LC Match because it
is the only match round available that does not violate the guidelines
of the Hague Convention.
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
#My point:
#1. I still have not heard you mention any manual that endorses such
#extreme use of brass in a gas gun. (your answer to my original point
#stated manuals indicating such extreme use of brass in gas guns)
Even in law, if something is not prohibited it is not illegal. That a
manual does not recommend against number of reloads as the criteria for
retirement is not significant. The manuals rightfully identify the
signs of impending failure, and the criteria that make a case unusable.
Number of times reloaded is not a reliable indication of impending
catastrophic case failure.
#2. To wait for the brass to fail as an indication that the case is
#"at last worn out" is, I believe irresponsible. (at least for gas guns,
#& that is what we are discussing, though I should think for ANY gun)
This is where you disagree with me (and apparently, the writers of
reloading manuals). I guess we'll just have to continue to disagree.
I realize that by the very nature of your business, you're going to see
a higher percentage of failures. But that number out of the total
population of gas guns being shot with reloads is probably not even
statistically significant. Good exercise for any statisticians on the
net here...
#3.If you think everything written in all NRA publications, for sale
BTW,
#is absolutely the answer, then I have no positive reply.
We all have to put our faith somewhere...
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
#My point:
#I am not informed on the M9. I can tell you USMC shooters have been
#SEVERLY injured (perhaps more) in the exploration of the "outer
#envelope". Further, I can tell you the position of the USMC at
#Quantico, Va. is "DO NOT PICK UP THE SPENT BRASS!
Why, does it bite? Seriously, we always used to HAVE to police up the
brass. Anytime anyone is exploring "the outer envelope" there is a
higher risk of catastrophic failures (this applies to more than just
shooting). But that's not what we were talking about - we were talking
about normal reloads, using standard accepted procedures.
#----------------------------------------------------------------------
#My point:
#I am glad you find some validity in my post.
The validity I find in your post is the confirmation that guns do in
fact fail when their design criteria are exceeded. Where we disagree is
in the frequency and probability of that happening simply as a result of
conscientious reloading.
#2. I would like to think a more appropriate analogy would be to imagine
#20 million (pulled # from the air) pilots mixing up some fuel for YOUR
#PLANE RIDE, BECAUSE THEY COULD MAKE IT CHEAPER, & OH, NATURALLY BETTER!
I do NOT use anyone ELSEs reloads, as I do not use any other pilots
"personal fuel recipe." That also is a prudent safety measure.
However, if I choose to mix up some fuel for my plane, and I am careful
to follow the accepted, tested guidelines, it is very safe (in fact, I
do just that).
I understand your desire to warn people about the dangers of reloading,
but I also agree that you were unnecessarily severe in your conclusions.
Mark
Mark Thomen
writes:
#(Verrrrrrry long redundant post snipped)...
#-----------------------------------------------------------------------
#Hi Mark!
#I never said all reloads were bad. I never said reloading safely
#was not possible.
Well, I don't want to spend the time, but I believe in your initial
posts on this you said (paraphrasing here) "Don't use reloads in M1 or
M1A - they aren't safe!"
#1. How many manuals insist on checking all measures of cartridge
#geometry, especially for gas guns, detailing how one might accomplish
#this feat? (& how do they know the real headspace?)
#2. How many manuals discuss the amplification of risk inherent in gas
#guns?
#3. How many manuals discuss gas gun's need for hard primers?
#4. How many manuals explore the question:"where does all the brass I'm
#trimming come from? Or, that military gas guns DO NOT SUPPORT THE BRASS
#in a similiar way found in many other rifle designs.
#5 When you resize a case blown out 15 thous or more, it does work
#harden the brass.(didn't say it destroyed it)
#6. Many other issues are discussed in my recent post on this very
issue.
#Please look for it, & let me know, O.K.?
See my earlier post... Clint, I suggest you pick up the commercially
available reloading manuals; those by Sierra, Hornady, or Speer are a
good start. Read through the sections on the reloading process and then
come back and revisit your questions. I believe the information you ask
about is there, and is clear. Either you have these manuals and DON'T
believe it is there/clear, or you haven't read the manuals.
Mark
C...@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de
HLope...@aol.com writes:
#The brass in a case, when resize, migrates quite a bit.
#When the die starts to compress the case, the brass being compressed starts
#to "flow" in another direction. Because the case is tapered, the head or
#bottom of the case has the most brass displaced by the compression operation
#of the die. All this brass flows towards the top of the cartridge, that's why
#we end up with the case longer that when we started the resizing operation.
#On the surface, this doesn't seem like allot of brass moving around, but this
#is where one of the problems starts. The brass moving upwards is leaving the
#base area of the case, and as the brass migrates, it makes the base thinner
#and thinner. Soon enough the area just above the head is thin enough to fail.
#You have probably heard people talk about case head separation, "OOP's there
#it is".
I am not sure you are right here. You are linking two separate phenomena
with presumably different reasons. I should be glad to hear comments from
more experienced realoaders here, but everything what I have read about it
in books and from my elders here in rec.guns leads me to conclude, prelimi-
narily, that you might be wrong. The thinning ring near the case head is
due to another phenemon, namely to a shoulder set back too far, and not to
the *ordinary* brass flow occuring regulary. Several posts (some of them by
Ben Sanding, if I remember correctly) have dealed with this process.
Respectfully yours, ALexander Eichener
c...@vm.urz.uni-heodelberg.de
Clint McKee
Gallacci) writes:
#
#Following this thread for a while now, and along with any number of
other
#issues that have come up on the board, have noticed some trends in the
#flow. There is a lot of adsolutist declarations as to what may or may
not
#be done (in this case reloading for M1, and by extension, service
rifles
#in general) with the implicate assumption that we practitioners are
#apallingly stupid and that only with writ in stone directives, we would
#all be seriously self-inflicted within a week.
#In the case of reloading and brass safety, the assumed tone is that no
#one actually looks at their brass. Even a fairly superficial look-see
can
#tell when there is a problem of case weakness or excessive length or
what
#have you that can either be remedied or have the case discareded.
#I check every case, every time I reload, and do the whole trim and
#chamfer bit on necks and re-anneal as nessisary, and have not had one
#case failure in all my reloading of 7.62x39, .223, 7.62x54, and 6.5x55
#for self-loading service rifles. I have had some small neck splits, but
#that ususally comes up during the final neck sizing.
#If a shooter has a ton of brass and just grinds away at mass reloading,
#then, yes, setting an arbitrary reload life would be prudent, as
#individual inspection would be a pain. But a careful reloader who is
#willing to give individual attention to each round can get consierably
#more life out each piece of brass. (and personally, given the fickle
#nature of popular opinion and politics, I would never rely on the
#assumption that there will always be plenty of new brass and other
#consumables to support my shooting habit)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
There are many people far more intelligent than I, & I don't mean to
insult every one! Just trying to put a few things in perspective.
BTW, If they stop new brass, they'll stop the primers, powder & bullets.
So, if your point is to prepare for the worst case scenario, stock up on
good military spec boxer primed ammo, & get the primers, powder &
bullets for the war. If it comes to that, forget everything I said about
reloading, for our troubles shall far exceed that danger.
Clint
Fulton Armory
Clint McKee
#
#..
##2. Military shooting team members do push the outer envelope when it
##comes to cartridges (they're in the Army now!). However, I am not
aware
##of ANY RELOAD USE! It is true, that a small number of MTU's most
##certainly DO design, explore & test new cartridge combo's. But the
##components are virgin.
#
#The military rifle teams may or may not use once fired brass but they
do
#not use factory ammo for distance from and beyond 600yd. They may use
#primed new brass, but they do load their own long range cartridge
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Generally speaking, they are issued U.S. Government Match Ammo for
nearly all competition, and as for the rest, isn't that what I said?
Clint
Fulton Armory
Clint McKee
writes:
#
#wcm...@ix.netcom.com (Clint McKee) writes...
##3. How many manuals discuss gas gun's need for hard primers?
#
#Military teams tend to use Federal match ammo and I think that Federal
#would use their own primers which, I think, are not among the hardest
#primers.
#
#BTW, Clint, could you please edit out the irrelevant portion of the
quoted
#messages in your reponses. I tend to save your posts and need to keep
#my storage space down :-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Stefan!
You bring up a very good point & one that I've not wanted to get into.
1. Not sure how often Military teams use Federal, but I know a lot of
non-military agencies do.
2. Federal 210 primers almost certainly ARE too soft. They are often
implicated when RELOADED ammo ignites prematurely.
3. THE CONUNDRUM: I know of not a single failure when *properly used in
a serviceable M1 Garand/M14 using FACTORY .308 or .30-06 FEDERAL MATCH.
(*Always loading from a magazine/clip, clean chamber, etc)
4. Perhaps these 210 primers amplify mistakes in primer pocket
preparation, seating, etc. Perhaps Federal has "hardened" there primers
over the years (a rumor I have heard.) I do know of many experienced
reloaders who have changed over to harder primers.
Hope this helps a little.
Clint
Fulton Armory
James Keane
: This whole conversation is getting to the point of being ridiculous!!!!!
: When Clint McKee posted his opinion, I feel it was to the inexperienced
: reloader, who had very little practical experience loading for gas guns.
: Allot of the responses I see here, sound like a bunch of little kids
: telling the adult, that they "can't be told what to do". Do you feel so
: threatened by one or two people trying to shed a little light on a
: practice that has caused pain and injury to others?
I don't mind that at all. Someone in another thread (I forget who,
which is a shame since they deserve credit) posted an excerpt from an
official NRA document that described the special concerns in reloading
for the Garand. *That* is what I call "shedding a little light."
Clint knows my opinions on his advice, and there's no point in trying
to start a petty flame war over this issue. Suffice it to say that I'll
trust the NRA unless and until Clint can back up his rather sweeping
claims (which were clearly aimed at *all* reloaders IMHO) with hard
facts from a well-known and reliable source. That has yet to occur.
Regards,
J. Sean Keane
Clint McKee
writes:
#
#In <3m0s07$2...@xring.cs.umd.edu> wcm...@ix.netcom.com (Clint McKee)
#writes:
#
##(Verrrrrrry long redundant post snipped)...
##----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
##Hi Mark!
##I never said all reloads were bad. I never said reloading safely
##was not possible.
#
#Well, I don't want to spend the time, but I believe in your initial
#posts on this you said (paraphrasing here) "Don't use reloads in M1 or
#M1A - they aren't safe!"
#
##1. How many manuals insist on checking all measures of cartridge
##geometry, especially for gas guns, detailing how one might accomplish
##this feat? (& how do they know the real headspace?)
##2. How many manuals discuss the amplification of risk inherent in gas
##guns?
##3. How many manuals discuss gas gun's need for hard primers?
##4. How many manuals explore the question:"where does all the brass I'm
##trimming come from? Or, that military gas guns DO NOT SUPPORT THE
BRASS
##in a similiar way found in many other rifle designs.
##5 When you resize a case blown out 15 thous or more, it does work
##harden the brass.(didn't say it destroyed it)
##6. Many other issues are discussed in my recent post on this very
#issue.
##Please look for it, & let me know, O.K.?
#
#See my earlier post... Clint, I suggest you pick up the commercially
#available reloading manuals; those by Sierra, Hornady, or Speer are a
#good start. Read through the sections on the reloading process and
then
#come back and revisit your questions. I believe the information you
ask
#about is there, and is clear. Either you have these manuals and DON'T
#believe it is there/clear, or you haven't read the manuals.
#
# Mark
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Mark:
I do not believe it is there/clear regarding the amplified dangers
of reloading for gas guns. Sorry. I do appreciate you agreement to
disagree.
Thanks for the interest!
Clint
Mark Thomen
#
# This whole conversation is getting to the point of being
ridiculous!!!!!
#When Clint McKee posted his opinion, I feel it was to the inexperienced
#reloader, who had very little practical experience loading for gas
guns.
#Allot of the responses I see here, sound like a bunch of little kids
#telling the adult, that they "can't be told what to do". Do you feel so
#threatened by one or two people trying to shed a little light on a
#practice that has caused pain and injury to others?
I don't recall that Clint shed any light; I seem to recall he mainly
gave all the reasons why you SHOULDN'T reload, not steps you could take
to reload safely.
I think that's what the rest of us were trying to do...
Mark
HLopez3898
You wrote, "How is using brass more than twice, a health
hazard?" Well where do we start with this question? First let me say that
my statement was made as a general guide line for all shooters who use a
service rifle. You might say that you are an above average loader and that
you have enough experience to know what is occurring during all phases of
the rifles functioning. That's fine, not everyone on the net may have the
same level of expertise that you have accrued. I feel Clint McKee's
initial message was meant to alert all reloaders, no matter how good or
bad, their reloading habits are.
The problems with brass start the first time we
resize it. Depending on whether a Small Base or a standard Full Length are
used. To the Small Base first, the SB allow the reloader to size the brass
down to a SAMMI spec. like new from the factory. This, on the surface
seems the fastest and easiest way to go. You get a case that will fit the
chamber without any problems, and you are assured of reliable functioning.
Now to the problem with this, any time we resize a piece of brass we are
forcing the brass to assume a new form. It may look like we just move a
little material here and there, not quite! The brass in a case, when
resize, migrates quite a bit. When the die starts to compress the case,
the brass being compressed starts to "flow" in another direction. Because
the case is tapered, the head or bottom of the case has the most brass
displaced by the compression operation of the die. All this brass flows
towards the top of the cartridge, that's why we end up with the case
longer that when we started the resizing operation. On the surface, this
doesn't seem like allot of brass moving around, but this is where one of
the problems starts. The brass moving upwards is leaving the base area of
the case, and as the brass migrates, it makes the base thinner and
thinner. Soon enough the area just above the head is thin enough to fail.
You have probably heard people talk about case head separation, "OOP's
there it is". Next the case head is ejected and a new round is picked up
exist to safely load ammo for the gas guns. As you can see the brass is
Jon Freiberg
>disagree. I feel that when educated, common sense is used, and
>accepted standards of reloading are followed, reloading is VERY safe -
>even for "gas guns." You feel that the potential for catastrophic
>failures is high enough that reloading is never safe for "gas guns."
T>In <3m0rv1$2...@xring.cs.umd.edu> wcm...@ix.netcom.com (Clint McKee)
>#1. I still have not heard you mention any manual that endorses such
>#extreme use of brass in a gas gun. (your answer to my original point
>#stated manuals indicating such extreme use of brass in gas guns)
T>Even in law, if something is not prohibited it is not illegal. That a
>manual does not recommend against number of reloads as the criteria for
>retirement is not significant. The manuals rightfully identify the
>signs of impending failure, and the criteria that make a case unusable.
>Number of times reloaded is not a reliable indication of impending
>catastrophic case failure.
I too, thought Clint was a little severe with his caveats about never
using reloads for gas guns but he does have a point. It has been my
experience watching failures of others' brass that brings me to the
conclusion that one can safely reload 4 times for M-1s (total of 5 shots
per case) and 3 times for M-14s, except when using WRA mil cases. They
seem to be harder and split more easily than other mil brass. I haven't
seen case separations in matches, although I'm sure they must happen.
But I have seen split cases. And fwiw, I've seen more squib fires,
including one of my own, than any other reload problem. One OUGHT to
be very careful when reloading, but who can afford to pay a buck a shot
for matches?
JAF
Walter B. Kulecz Ph.D.
: I too, thought Clint was a little severe with his caveats about never
: using reloads for gas guns but he does have a point. It has been my
: experience watching failures of others' brass that brings me to the
: conclusion that one can safely reload 4 times for M-1s (total of 5 shots
I guess I have to get my two cents in here. Having had a total case head
seperation two weeks ago, I want to relate my experience. Basically I
almost never knew anything had happened. "once-fired" GI grade 1 brass
from Midway, winchester WLR primers, winchester 147 gr FMJ 41.5 gr AA2230
powder, shooting my Polytech M-14. No evidence of any gas leakage or gun
damage the shot was an indistingushable group member (although these
groups were bad, but that's another story) and except for the fact that
the gun "jammed" I'd never have known anything was wrong. I guess I was
lucky the case body extracted and caught between the bolt and barrel
causing the jam, the case head sat on top of the next round as it was
just starting to chamber. Short of clarvoyence, I don't see how this
could have been prevented by any reloading technique short of some
advanced non-destructrive testing like magnaflux or some such.
Are people claiming I should have expected to "blow up my gun"? Suppose
the body remained in the chamber, the live round would have stopped after
about 3/4 inch into the chamber. I sure hope no gun is designed to allow
firing in such a situation. Firing out of battery IMHO is a problem with
the gun not the ammo. I'll admit ammo that doesn't meet the gun designers
spec is dangerous in any gun.
Doesn't the existance of the "broken shell extractor" tool imply:
Case heads will seperate on occasion and the gun (hence shooter) is
expected to survive un-harmed?
I don't doubt that people blow up guns, and far more often with reloads
than factory ammo, but in my frame of reference, if the gun was in full
battery and blew-up you'd have to blame the ammo. IF it blew up by
firing out of battery I claim you should blame the gun. IF the gun is
wore out (excessive head space) all bets are off.
IF you can't understand factory ammo specs and make measurements to
insure physical conformance you have no business attempting to reload. I
admit we defer to the component makers to do pressure measurements in
most situations and violating their guidelines is risky.
--wally.
HLopez3898
Thanks for your post and I stand corrected!
Your are correct in your statement. MOST of the reason for the case
separation is a result of excessive resizing of the case, and I tried to
make that point but fell short. But, and this is a little but, some
migration weakens the case to a degree. I should have taken the time to
fully explain what my thoughts are on the resizing process. So here goes,
the only real way to resize brass without excessively increasing the
problem with case head separation, is to be aware of the rifles headspace
measurement. This can be obtained either by having a gunsmith with the
appropriate tools measure it, or if your lucky, your gun came with the
headspace measurement on a tag attached to the rifle. From this point we
will be able to see if the brass will chamber and whether or not we have
over or undersized it. The procedure is to check the resized case with a
RCBS Precision Mic Case Length Gauge (it comes with two parts, one of them
is for the headspace measurement). Basically the gauge can tell if the
case has been sized enough to fit the chamber headspace dimension. Here is
where the disagreement usually starts. The individual loader must select
the appropriate clearance he/she desires between the case shoulder and the
chamber. I'll leave that to everyone's own selection.
I feel that the gas gun are different than
bolt guns in this respect. I feel that the often used bolt gun procedure
of measuring a fired case, falls short of the accuracy needed to find the
gas guns Headspace. In the bolt gun you don't have a violent extraction
taking place while there's still some pressure in the chamber (an amount
much lower than at ignition, but it's there). The bolt gun also has the
advantage of having a high camming force to apply to the case in the
chamber. That bolt can literally resize a case that is just a little to
large. The gas guns don't have this ability. Yes, they SLAM home the case,
but they don't have the mechanical advantage to insure that a slightly
large case will not prevent the bolt from completely closing. I should
say, coming to rest with the bolt in the most closed position. On the
M1A/M14 let the OP rod slam home, and see how much you can tilt the bolt
with your fingers. The operating rod doesn't insure that the bolt is
completely closed into the battery position, it will function within
certain parameters, it's still safe, just a good thing to be aware of.
Anyway, back to the point, if you measured a fired case with the Pic. Mic.
I feel that the reading your getting is slightly misleading, in that it
hasn't accounted for a bolt that doesn't always close to the same position
(granted a small diff). For me it's a game of getting all that I can out
of myself and my guns, so every little bit counts. So my suggestion is to
find your rifle's headspace, and the appropriate amount of resizing that
the brass needs, and go from there! Sorry I didn't have the time before to
go into this.
By the way everybody, I had a chance to call Clint
today. After talking with Him, it was reaffirmed to me, as to the type of
individual he is. Clint cares VERY MUCH about our sport and especially
about the people in it. His cautions, turns out, come from first hand
experience of friends hurt using reloads. Whatever differences we may
have with his suggestions, this man deserves our respect, admiration, and
business support!! When you need that part for your M1 M14/M1A or Carbine,
call Clint, I know he'll always be willing to help! Another item,
Widener's is selling NEW IMI brass for the .30-06, .308, and .223, all Mil
Spec. Good buys. Their # 615-282-6786. They are currently out of .308 till
the end of April. Good Shooting!!!
HANK