HK 93 vs. AR-15
AlphaBeta1
Dan Nafe
#From: alpha...@aol.com (AlphaBeta1)
#Date: 11 Nov 1994 00:10:16 -0500
#Which is better and why?
HK is better, more reliable, more accruate and more robust.
All of these advantages are related to the weakness of the AR-15/M-16 gas
system. The Teutonic roller-delayed blow back system is very strong, and
reliable. The Mattel product's gas system is easily (reletive to the Hk)
fouled and causes vertical stringing of the shot groups due to varing
amonts of gas being vented from shot to shot. The Hk also does not have
the delicate aluminum gas tube running 2.3rds the length of the barrel.
Out of the box, the AR-15/M-16 has a better trigger and better sights.
The Hk really mangles the brass, so much so that many people choose not
to reload it.
The Hk is much less likely to suffer a catistrophic failure due to an
obstructed barrel.
Last point, the Hk is available in .308/7.62NATO, a full-sized calibre.
--
d...@shadow.net m...@shadow.net
"My race gun is a phased-plasma rifle, forty watt range..."
Nadir A. El Farra
: Which one is better and why?
[hmpf, grunt, cough...OK! flame retardant suit on....]
The AR is better....by far!
logistically:
you can find a TON of parts that _won't_ cost you an arm and a
leg - try that with HK! Your local law enforcement and military units
use it, so there's all sorts of neato goodies floating around - true to a
lesser extent with the 93 (plenty of Buck Rodgers gear for the 94, however).
Magazines are readily available and significantly more affordable than HK
mag's of similar capacity.
tacitcally:
the HK-series does NOT lock the bolt back on the last round
fired. Translation? You pull the trigger expecting to hear 'KA-POW' and
instead hear a mousey little 'click'. At the shooting range - big deal,
anywhere else? Baaaad. :(
the AR is the fastest reloading rifle made (for right-handers,
that is). You drop the empty with your trigger finger - using your other
hand to reach for a new magazine. The magazine goes _straight_ in instead
of rocking (not sure if the 93 does this, but the 91 did) and in the same
motion, you can hit the bolt release loading a round. The 93 (again,
basing my info on experience with the 91) requires two hands to get the
mag out (one to hit the release and one to pull the mag out) and then the
bolt must be pulled back as if loading for the first time (and on the 91
it was a _heavy_ pull).
the AR weighs less (perhaps not that much, but still). Again, at
the range - who cares? In the field? every ounce counts....
What's good about the HK? A _lot_. Rightfully considered one of the
finest rifles made (combat rifles, that is). Well-deserved reputation
for reliability (even when dirty - unlike the AR which has a poor
reputation in this regard) and workmanship.
lastly, it's my understanding that the AR is still significantly less
expensive. Note, with the exception of sporter-type weapons, the 1989
ban on imports of assault rifles cut the supply source, so HK's will
likely only become _more_ expensive (as will all of their components).
[grunt, ermphf, gasp...OK, flame retardant suit off..whew!]
-Nadir
--
na...@netcom.com = Nadir A. El Farra in Los Angeles
"Let us rise up tonight with a greater readiness. Let us stand with
greater determination. And let us move in these powerful days, these
days of challenge, to make America what it ought to be."Dr. MLK, Jr.
***** DON'T TREAD ON ME *****
WarrenM233
IMNSHO, the m-16/AR-15 series is _junk_, particularly the A-2 series.
The FN manufactured military contract rifles are made of inferior metal,
have the absolutely worst trigger that I've ever fired, jam without
warning or proximate cause-not to mention the slightest amount of sand,
and are finicky about ammo to boot. (Fort Knox 1993 was my experience)
THe other manufacturers are a real crap shoot (pun not really intended,
but appropriate). The best I've seen is an A-1 series made by H&R, but it
was only fair.
While the HK has some apparent drawbacks, I'd far prefer it to the M-16.
The hammer-lock reportedly pulverizes sand to a powder that just blows out
of the gun upon firing, It is, as mentioned, chambered in .308-a far
preferable cartridge to .223, and is more robust.
Were I to choose an ideal combat rifle, I'd have to go with the old
Johnson rifle of limited WW2 use. The reasons are that it is blowback
operated, far easier to point and shoot with than any pistol gripped
rifle, robust, inherently accurate, and easy to train on. Though if I
could make any changes, I'd have to go back to Mr. Johnson's concept of a
removable magazine and incorporate the HK's hammer lock.
-W-
Stephen D. Grant
##From: alpha...@aol.com (AlphaBeta1)
##Date: 11 Nov 1994 00:10:16 -0500
##Which is better and why?
#HK is better, more reliable, more accruate and more robust.
Um, says you. All of these are open to debate.
The AR-15/M-16 of today is one of the most dependable firearms going.
A propperly set-up HBAR will shoot as good or better than a 93.
Robust? You mean "log-like"? Yes, I'll give you that.
The 93 is a fine weapon. But so is the AR-15/M-16.
The AR/M-16 also enjoys many advantages. Parts availability, magazines,
versatility, etc.
#All of these advantages are related to the weakness of the AR-15/M-16 gas
#system. The Teutonic roller-delayed blow back system is very strong, and
#reliable. The Mattel product's gas system is easily (reletive to the Hk)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mattel never had anything to do with production of AR-15s or M-16s.
#fouled and causes vertical stringing of the shot groups due to varing
#amonts of gas being vented from shot to shot. The Hk also does not have
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Seems as though this would be most dependant on the ammunition being used.
#the delicate aluminum gas tube running 2.3rds the length of the barrel.
Which is surrounded by a very sturdy plastic tube. I haven't seen
one broke in the field, yet.
#Out of the box, the AR-15/M-16 has a better trigger and better sights.
#The Hk really mangles the brass, so much so that many people choose not
#to reload it.
#The Hk is much less likely to suffer a catistrophic failure due to an
#obstructed barrel.
#Last point, the Hk is available in .308/7.62NATO, a full-sized calibre.
As is ths SR-25?
#--
#d...@shadow.net m...@shadow.net
# "My race gun is a phased-plasma rifle, forty watt range..."
John Will
D >system.
Weakness? Unless you shoot very dirty ammo, it takes thousands of shots
before any maintenance of the gas tube is required.
D >The Hk also does not have
D >the delicate aluminum gas tube running 2.3rds the length of the barrel.
Gosh, that's neat. Of course, neither does the AR-15. Unless my two
AR-15's are unique, the gas tubes are stainless steel. The sure don't
seem delicate, though I suppose I could destroy them out of the gun...
AlphaBeta1
<mi...@ms.uky.edu> writes:
The AR-15 was made by Mattel. Check the stock.
AlphaBeta1
Let me rephrase that. Mattel made many parts of the AR-15
Tod L. Glenn
d...@shadow.net (Dan Nafe) writes:
#
# #From: alpha...@aol.com (AlphaBeta1)
# #Date: 11 Nov 1994 00:10:16 -0500
#
# #Which is better and why?
#
# HK is better, more reliable, more accruate and more robust.
Sorry. The M-16 is easily the most accurate currently issued general
purpose military rifle. And with relatively minor modifications it can
out shoot most bolt action rifles (bearing in mind the limitations of
the caliber). Olympic Arms has fired a version of their AR with a
verified five shot group at one hundred yards measuring 0.19 in.
#
# All of these advantages are related to the weakness of the AR-15/M-16 gas
# system. The Teutonic roller-delayed blow back system is very strong, and
# reliable. The Mattel product's gas system is easily (reletive to the Hk)
# fouled and causes vertical stringing of the shot groups due to varing
# amonts of gas being vented from shot to shot.
The amount of gas is negligable, and in fact verticle string in M-16s
is usually caused by downward pressure on the barrel from the sling.
# The Hk also does not have the delicate aluminum gas tube running 2.3rds the length of the
# barrel.
The gas tub is protected by the hand guards.
# Out of the box, the AR-15/M-16 has a better trigger and better sights.
Much better. The M-16 has far superior human engineering (who are HK
guns made for anyway, Martians?). A fact that makes it a much easier
weapon to shoot. Magazine changes are faster and there is a bolt
hold-open devive.
It is interesting to note that HK Produced an experimental version of
their .223 rifle which used M16 magazines and incorporated a bolt
hold-open device and forward assist.
# The Hk is much less likely to suffer a catistrophic failure due to an
# obstructed barrel
The studies on catastophic barrel failure showed that this is a
function of Caliber. Since the two weapons are the same caliber, this
comparison is therefore meaningless.
# Last point, the Hk is available in .308/7.62NATO, a full-sized calibre.
So? This is not essential nor even desireable in a combat rifle. The
ALCLAD studies, as well as German and others determined that the
maximum combat effectiveness of the rifle is about 300 meters, and 80%
of all smallarms fire takes place at 100 meters or less. At these
ranged, using military ammunition the .223 is a more lethal round.
Studies in Viet Nam showed that the .223 was 11% more lethal than the
.308. The .223 round is lighter, allowing the soldier to carry more
ammunition for a given weight.
As far as civilian ownership is concerned, The AR15/M16 is cheaper and
it is far easier to to obtain parts and magazines.
Tod L. Glenn
alpha...@aol.com (AlphaBeta1) writes:
# In article <3a4eio$8...@s.ms.uky.edu>, "Stephen D. Grant"
# <mi...@ms.uky.edu> writes:
#
# Let me rephrase that. Mattel made many parts of the AR-15
Sorry. Mattel had nothing to do with the AR-15/M-16 contrary to
popular myth. This rumor started in Viet Nam when early M-16 had
teething problems. I suggest you read Ezell's "The Black Rifle" for an
accurate and complete history of the M-16.
Stephen D. Grant
#In article <3a4eio$8...@s.ms.uky.edu>, "Stephen D. Grant"
#<mi...@ms.uky.edu> writes:
#The M-16/AR-15 was *never* made by Mattel.
#>The AR-15 was made by Mattel. Check the stock.
Wrong! Thank you for playing. Next!
Mattel never made any part of the M-16/AR-15.
This is an urban legend resulting supposedly from comments made
by the first troops in Viet Nam to see these "Mattel Rifles".
They called them that because of the plastic on them, which was
very uncommon at the time.
AlphaBeta1
HK 93 and i wanted to get a AR-15 but i keep hearing what crap it is. My
dad is a Vietnam vet and he doesn't hold the M-16 "close to his heart".
He loves the HK bolt system and says if they had this system on the M-16,
they would have kick more VC butt to put it softly. I'm still interested
in them though but after handling but the AR-15 and my HK, i think the HK
is superior. Not by far and not slightly, but just superior. German
engineering is phenomental (did i spell that right?).
Mike=Batchelor%...@bangate.compaq.com
#
##From: alpha...@aol.com (AlphaBeta1)
##Date: 11 Nov 1994 00:10:16 -0500
#
##Which is better and why?
#
#HK is better, more reliable, more accruate and more robust.
HK 93 more accurate, I don't think so.
#All of these advantages are related to the weakness of the AR-15/M-16 gas
#system. The Teutonic roller-delayed blow back system is very strong, and
#reliable. The Mattel product's gas system is easily (reletive to the Hk)
#fouled and causes vertical stringing of the shot groups due to varing
#amonts of gas being vented from shot to shot. The Hk also does not have
#the delicate aluminum gas tube running 2.3rds the length of the barrel.
The weakness from the gas system on the M16 was from the Military
Ball ammo being loaded with improper gun powder. Ball vs. IMR.
Mattel only produced the plastics.
Vertical stringing is not caused by the gas being vented. BTW, the M16
is a direct gas operating weapon. Didn't you know that? And also
the gas tube is made of stainless steel.
#Out of the box, the AR-15/M-16 has a better trigger and better sights.
#The Hk really mangles the brass, so much so that many people choose not
#to reload it.
The HK has such a violent action that it damn near destroys the brass.
It also leaves neat fluting marks on the brass too.
#The Hk is much less likely to suffer a catistrophic failure due to an
#obstructed barrel.
Huh?
#Last point, the Hk is available in .308/7.62NATO, a full-sized calibre.
#--
#d...@shadow.net m...@shadow.net
# "My race gun is a phased-plasma rifle, forty watt range..."
I have experience with both weapons. The HK 93 is a excellent weapon
that can be modified easily to sliding rear stocks, forearms, bipods and
such. But the HK and parts for it are getting very expensive now. My
biggest gripe with the HK is no bolt hold open device.
The AR-15 is a excellent weapon with parts and magazines plentiful and
relatively cheap. And also for me the AR-15 is a more accurate weapon.
Semper Fi
MikeB
Dan Nafe
#From: "Stephen D. Grant" <mi...@ms.uky.edu>
#Date: 13 Nov 1994 11:09:02 -0500
##HK is better, more reliable, more accruate and more robust.
#
# Um, says you. All of these are open to debate.
# The AR-15/M-16 of today is one of the most dependable firearms going.
# A propperly set-up HBAR will shoot as good or better than a 93.
Sure, given enough customization, any weapon can be made reliable.
# Robust? You mean "log-like"? Yes, I'll give you that.
All the better to verticle-buttstroke you with, my pretty! ;->
##fouled and causes vertical stringing of the shot groups due to varing
##amonts of gas being vented from shot to shot. The Hk also does not have
#^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# Seems as though this would be most dependant on the ammunition being used.
No, it is due to the gaps in the gas rings aligning after as few as 10
rounds fired. The ammunition is not the problem here, it is the basic
design of the weapon.
##the delicate aluminum gas tube running 2.3rds the length of the barrel.
#
# Which is surrounded by a very sturdy plastic tube. I haven't seen
# one broke in the field, yet.
You have not spent much time in the field. The gas tube is usually broken
during cleaning or maintainance. Many company armours have had to remove
broken off q-tips from the gas tube. The plastic tube is easy to break also.
##Last point, the Hk is available in .308/7.62NATO, a full-sized calibre.
#
# As is ths SR-25?
The SR-25/AR-18 still suffer all the same operating system flaws that the
M-16/AR-15 suffer.
--
d...@shadow.net m...@shadow.net
Dan Nafe
#From: to...@teleport.com (Tod L. Glenn)
#Date: 14 Nov 1994 01:59:57 -0500
#Sorry. The M-16 is easily the most accurate currently issued general
#purpose military rifle.
No, the M-1 Garand, currently issued to the Haitian Military/Police force
is the most accurate military rifle.
# And with relatively minor modifications it can
#out shoot most bolt action rifles (bearing in mind the limitations of
#the caliber). Olympic Arms has fired a version of their AR with a
#verified five shot group at one hundred yards measuring 0.19 in.
Military weapons are not modified. What you are talking about is a
sporter rifle for civilian use only. The Olympic Arms poodle shooter has
not been accepted for military use. (Not that military acceptance is the
proof of greatnes...)
## All of these advantages are related to the weakness of the AR-15/M-16 gas
## system. The Teutonic roller-delayed blow back system is very strong, and
## reliable. The Mattel product's gas system is easily (reletive to the Hk)
## fouled and causes vertical stringing of the shot groups due to varing
## amonts of gas being vented from shot to shot.
#
#The amount of gas is negligable, and in fact verticle string in M-16s
#is usually caused by downward pressure on the barrel from the sling.
No, any variance in gas pressure will cause verticle stringing of the
shot groups and it is NOT megligable as the ranges get beyond 300yards.
The stringing caused by varing sling pressure is diagonal (along the axis
of the sling).
## The Hk also does not have the delicate aluminum gas tube running 2.3rds the length of the
## barrel.
#
#The gas tub is protected by the hand guards.
And those hand guards are easy to break, and they are removed for
cleaning. During cleaning/maintenance is when the gas tube gets mashed.
#Much better. The M-16 has far superior human engineering (who are HK
#guns made for anyway, Martians?). A fact that makes it a much easier
#weapon to shoot. Magazine changes are faster and there is a bolt
#hold-open devive.
Granted.
## The Hk is much less likely to suffer a catistrophic failure due to an
## obstructed barrel
#
#The studies on catastophic barrel failure showed that this is a
#function of Caliber. Since the two weapons are the same caliber, this
#comparison is therefore meaningless.
Wrong! The Hk's roller-delayed blowback system and fluted chamber are
much safer than the M-16's smooth chamber and rotary bolt.
## Last point, the Hk is available in .308/7.62NATO, a full-sized calibre.
#So? This is not essential nor even desireable in a combat rifle. The
[standard mouse calibre justification stuff snipped]
#.308. The .223 round is lighter, allowing the soldier to carry more
#ammunition for a given weight.
Tell it to the Marines... (to take a quote out of context). Just because
you can't shoot farther than 100-300 yards, doesn't mean that I can't.
The US Marines have been the finest trained marksmen in the world for
over two centuries and have won many battles where they engaged the enemy
at ranges in excess of 600 yards. (Belleau Wood and Korea being some of
the most memorable examples.) It is no cliche to live by the motto "One
shot, one kill.".
If you don't trust or care about your troops enough to give them good
marksmanship training and a good rifle, then a M-16 is your weapon.
I speak from personal experience that the M-16 is TOTALLY INADEQUATE in
close combat. In 1986, while on guard duty, I buttstroked an intruder to
great effect (compound fracture of the collar bone), but the stock of my
M-16 broke off. This left the buffer and spring flopping around like the
clown from a jack-in-the-box. If I had used an M-14 or M-1, the wood
stock would not have broken.
IN CONCLUSION:
If you are incapable of shooting a full-sized battle rifle accurately and
expect no close combat and have a battalion level armourer/gunsmith handy
the M-16/AR-15 is the weapon for you. Us riflemen will be armed with
something a little more effective.
James Keane
: Which one is better and why?
I cannot imagine another choice of six words on this conference that are
guarenteed to earn you an earful... ?*)
As someone who has shot both a fair amount, here's my take on things:
This is a "religious issue", like Fords vs. Chevys or UNIX vs VMS. You
are sure to hear from some who will swear that one of these two weapons
is vastly superior to the other. My experience shows that they are both
excellent firearms. Each has about the same number of pros and cons. It
is certainly possible that one feature of one or the other might be
vastly more important to you than it is to me, but I suspect that you
would be pleased with either one.
Here are the "good points" and "bad points" of both as I see them;
please keep in mind that some of these items are quite subjective and
you may feel differently..m
AR-15: Significantly lighter than the HK91. Better parts availability,
but some cheapo parts that you'd never want to buy are also out there. I
have not personally noticed a tendency to foul if quality ammunition is
used. Bolt locks open after last round fired. Plastic parts feel less
strong to me than the HK91.
HK91: Significantly heavier than the AR-15. Parts are harder to find and
more expensive, but come straight from HK and are of the highest
quality. Feeds anything. The brass denting that some make a big deal
about has never been a problem for me; I have cases that have been
reloaded six or seven times with no problem. The cases that I have
thrown out were due to incipient head separation (indicated by a bright
ring that appears near the base of the cartridge) and not to wall
rupture concerns. Bolt does not lock open after the last round fired.
My recommendation? I suppose I like the HK better, but then I just like
HK's (and heavier rifles). Get one of each, and then have a good time
over the next 30 years figuring out which you like better. ?*)
bob porro
has any major military force adopted the HK 33 (select fire version of the HK 93)
as their infantry rifle? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that
no major Army uses the HK 33.
---
******************************************************************************
| Bob Porro || (The opinions expressed here are not |
| aep...@lerc.nasa.gov || necessarily those of the management ?\*!) |
| || |
******************************************************************************
Andrew T Piskorski
#HK is better, more reliable, more accruate and more robust.
#
#All of these advantages are related to the weakness of the AR-15/M-16 gas
#system. The Teutonic roller-delayed blow back system is very strong, and
#reliable. The Mattel product's gas system is easily (reletive to the Hk)
#fouled and causes vertical stringing of the shot groups due to varing
#amonts of gas being vented from shot to shot. The Hk also does not have
#the delicate aluminum gas tube running 2.3rds the length of the barrel.
Of course the HK 91 needs to be compared to other .308's, but as far as
AR-15 vs HK 93 (5.56mm) what about the skinny barrel on the 93 that
supposedly gives atrocious accuracy when hot, and heats up real fast?
--
--
Andrew Piskorski
a...@kepler.unh.edu
Chuck Harris
#HK is better, more reliable, more accruate and more robust.
...
#reliable. The Mattel product's gas system is easily (reletive to the Hk)
#fouled and causes vertical stringing of the shot groups due to varing
#amonts of gas being vented from shot to shot. The Hk also does not have
#the delicate aluminum gas tube running 2.3rds the length of the barrel.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Neither does the M16/AR15. The gas tube on the M16/AR15 is a very hard
piece of stainless steel tubing. In order to damage it, on an assembled
rifle, you would have to completely destroy the fiberglass forestock, bend
the barrel, or dislodge the forged steel front sight from the barrel.
I am pretty sure any of these abuses would render the HK unusable as well.
-----
Chuck Harris - WA3UQV |NRA? You bet!
ch...@eng.umd.edu |NRA-life, NRA-ILA.
Rimas Kaunas
IMHO the other three don't even come close to being anywhere even near as
good a weapon as the HK. It was simply an amazing weapon. I realize
there's some apples vs oranges due to caliber differences, but this is the
only exposure I've had to this class of weapon.
Again this is My Humble Opinion and no personal attack intended.
Rimas.
---
========================================================================
Rimas J. Kaunas rka...@ch2m.com
CH2M HILL
Santa Ana, CA Speaking for myself...not the company
Dan Nafe
: Concerning the recent debate about the merits of the HK 93 vs. the AR 15,
: has any major military force adopted the HK 33 (select fire version of the HK 93)
: as their infantry rifle? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that
: no major Army uses the HK 33.
The military version of the Hk-91 is the G-3, which is the issued weapon
for many armed services around the world.
AlphaBeta1
porro) writes:
Germany and Austria. It is now a British owned buisness so future exports
to forgien countries is unlikely. Most countries prefer the M-16 because
the requirments for manufactoring the HK is higher than that of the M-16
and that is why the Colts are cheaper.
Tod L. Glenn
alpha...@aol.com (AlphaBeta1) writes:
# Most countries prefer the M-16 because
# the requirments for manufactoring the HK is higher than that of the M-16
# and that is why the Colts are cheaper.
Really? The HK is composed of mostly stampings, while the M16 is made
from machined aluminum forgings. This is the reason that Armalite
developed the AR-18. The AR18 is composed of stampings, and thus does
not require the sophisticated manufacturing (buy 3rd world standards)
technologies used in the M16. My understanding is that Colts are
cheaper because of the lack of availability of HKs and the value of the
mark vs. the dollar.
Herbert Leong
#Really? The HK is composed of mostly stampings, while the M16 is made
#from machined aluminum forgings. This is the reason that Armalite
Uh, well, the recivers are aluminum castings from what I have seen.
There was a display at a gun show that showed the manufacturing
process of a reciver. If you look real closely, you can see where the "flash"
has been removed from the inside of the carrying handel of the upper reciver
and from the inside of the trigger guard. On cheaper models, you can see
the residue flash on the reciver's rear, just above the pistol grip (Colt
mills this part flat for a comfortable grip).
/herb
Dan Nafe
: # the requirments for manufactoring the HK is higher than that of the M-16
: # and that is why the Colts are cheaper.
: Really? The HK is composed of mostly stampings, while the M16 is made
: from machined aluminum forgings. This is the reason that Armalite
When talking to the Hk factory rep in 1984, he told me that Hk could set
up a production line out of two shipping containers in just eight hours.
Stephen D. Grant
#According to Colt firearms, certain parts were made by Mattel. I have a
I'm sorry. This is just not true.
#HK 93 and i wanted to get a AR-15 but i keep hearing what crap it is. My
#dad is a Vietnam vet and he doesn't hold the M-16 "close to his heart".
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So is my dad. He was there in summer 69' in Quang Tri. He was not
overly fond of them either, then. As described on here *many* times, the
M-16 had problems jamming in Nam at first largely due to the ammunition
being used, and lack of cleaning.
As of now, the M-16/AR-15 A2 is refined to a point that makes it one of
the most reliable made.
In a fairly recent search for the US military's "new age rifle", the
conclusion was that the current M-16 was impossible to beat for cost,
reliability, performance etc. And that test had some pretty exotic H&K
caseless rifles etc as competition.
BY the way, just tonight my uncle came in from Texas. He is a retired
marine and was in Nam same time as my dad (retired corpsman). When I
pointed to an AR-15 in a magazine, his immediate comment was "I wouldn't
piss on one!" Guess he doesn't like em either.
But upon asking, one finds his dislike (as my dads) comes from hearing
rumors more than from first-hand experience.
I love mine. YMMV.
#He loves the HK bolt system and says if they had this system on the M-16,
#they would have kick more VC butt to put it softly. I'm still interested
I'm afraid the lack of competent weapons was not a factor in why we
were prevented from "kicking ass".
#in them though but after handling but the AR-15 and my HK, i think the HK
#is superior. Not by far and not slightly, but just superior. German
#engineering is phenomental (did i spell that right?).
No. :) But my spelling sucks too. As you should now be aware!
Jan Isley
Stephen D. Grant <mi...@ms.uky.edu> wrote:
#alpha...@aol.com (AlphaBeta1) writes:
## My dad is a Vietnam vet
# So is my dad
Geeze, I am starting to feel old...
I attribute every problem I ever had with an M-16 that was not
operator error to poor quality ammunition. What do you expect with
a nation that runs on things made by the lowest bidders?
James Keane
: alpha...@aol.com (AlphaBeta1) writes:
: In a fairly recent search for the US military's "new age rifle", the
: conclusion was that the current M-16 was impossible to beat for cost,
: reliability, performance etc. And that test had some pretty exotic H&K
: caseless rifles etc as competition.
That's not entirely true, unless you put cost *way* above everything
else.
The United States Advanced Combat Rifle (ACR) program sought a new rifle
that would significantly increase the hit probability of even an average
shooter. Colt itself put forward a radical upgrade of the M-16 that had
significantly reduced recoil, an optical sight, and even a "duplex
cartridge" that packed two bullets into one case! Other manufacturers
proposed rifles that fired flechettes, and HK suggested a slight
redisign of its G11 rifle that fires caseless ammunition (it shoots
three rounds before the recoil of the first one causes the muzzle to
rise!) However, the voters demanded a "peace dividend", so the whole
ACR program was cancelled.
The "reliability, performance etc." of the M-16 can be vastly improved
upon, with the G11 being the front runner in ACR before its
cancellation. These improvements come at a cost, however. We are
equipping our soldiers with a good, *cheap* firearm, not the best
firearm for the job.
Dean Brunette
: ##fouled and causes vertical stringing of the shot groups due to varing
: ##amonts of gas being vented from shot to shot. The Hk also does not have
: #^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: # Seems as though this would be most dependant on the ammunition being used.
: No, it is due to the gaps in the gas rings aligning after as few as 10
: rounds fired. The ammunition is not the problem here, it is the basic
: design of the weapon.
Then you should check out Eagle Arm's new one-piece gas ring,
replaces the original three, no gaps to ever line up.
-d
p.s. call eagle arms about it if you need more info. don't
have the number handy, sorry. 800-xxx-1984 or something.
--
Dean Brunette dra...@dragnet.com
Strategic Open Solutions Group de...@sos.com
Belmont, CA "Don't tread on me."
Tod L. Glenn
ke...@bigdog.engr.arizona.edu (James Keane) writes:
# The "reliability, performance etc." of the M-16 can be vastly improved
# upon, with the G11 being the front runner in ACR before its
# cancellation. These improvements come at a cost, however. We are
# equipping our soldiers with a good, *cheap* firearm, not the best
# firearm for the job.
Remembering, of course, that small arms procurement by the military
must be considered within the whole frameworks of weapons procurement.
Since small arms are really insignifigant in the sceme of things (as
far as there actual utility for causing enemy casualties) the military
rightly places less emphasis on them. Essentially, the ACR program
determined that the adoption of a new small arm system would not
_substantially_ improve small arms effectiveness while it necessitate a
dramatic cost increase in small arms procurement. The Army decided
that the product improved M16 could continue to fill the role of US
battle rifle into the next century while awaiting new developments in
small arms technology (such as electro-thermal guns).
It is interesting to note that small arms are already has far greater
accuracy than the soldier is able to exploit, an thus ergonomics will
probably became the most important feature of future conventional
military firearms (the Colt ACR is a good example of this).
Dan Nafe
: Dan Nafe (d...@shadow.net) wrote:
: : ##fouled and causes vertical stringing of the shot groups due to varing
: : ##amonts of gas being vented from shot to shot. The Hk also does not have
[snip]
: : No, it is due to the gaps in the gas rings aligning after as few as 10
: : rounds fired. The ammunition is not the problem here, it is the basic
: : design of the weapon.
: Then you should check out Eagle Arm's new one-piece gas ring,
: replaces the original three, no gaps to ever line up.
That sounds like a step in the right direction! It is also proof-positive
that the gas rings are a weakness in the design! Ha! [Gloat, gloat]
I also hear that there is a mod to free-float the barrel, is this so?
Dean Brunette
: I also hear that there is a mod to free-float the barrel, is this so?
Sure. My new Eagle Arms came with a free-floated Wilson heavy
barrel. Don't believe the free-floating could make a
difference on this barrel (it's 1 3/16" in diameter, and the
sling is attached to the barrel and not the handguard).
Which brings up another question... in the discussion that
occurred a while ago, was it determined that the HK-91 has a
free-floating barrel or not? I tried to convince people that
it does, as the handguard/forearm and barrel can be moved
independently, but others have told me it is not, because the
sling attaches to the barrel and not the forearm (which would
make my Eagle Eye not free-floating, either).
-d
Tod L. Glenn
d...@shadow.net (Dan Nafe) writes:
# I also hear that there is a mod to free-float the barrel, is this so?
People have been free floating the barrel of the AR15/M16 for better
accuracy since at least 1972 ( the USAMTU prepared several specimens).
The modification is fairly simple, involving replacing the handguards
abd barrel retaining nut with a modified tubular handguard which also
retains the barrel at the receiver only.
Re: the weakness of the gas ring design and vertical stringing.
Olympic arms has consistantly demonstrated the extreme accuracy which
the AR design is capable. Their current record for a 5 round group at
100 yards is 0.16 inch center to center. This using standard gas
rings. This is not too bad when compared with bolt action rfiles!
John W. Engel
worked on a 93 which was short-cycling because a quantity of ammo
with brass which was too soft had been fired in it, building up in
the chamber flutes, and causing enough friction to prevent proper
extraction. The gun was hopelessly jammed, for combat purposes.
Whit
Dan Nafe
: The problem with *all* H&K's is that they are ammo sensitive. I recently
Gotta quit using that cheap Chi-Com ammo, Whit!
<|-) (china-man smiley)
James Keane
It's not correct to say that this is a problem with *all* HK's, since I
have never had this problem with my HK91 nor with my brother's HK93.
Both have flawlessly fed everything we've ever put through them,
including a large number of varied handloads.
The gun you worked on may have been screwed up, but to say that this is
a characteristic of HK rifles is unfair.
Donald R. Newcomb
John W. Engel <wh...@cs.utexas.edu> wrote:
#The problem with *all* H&K's is that they are ammo sensitive.
I understand, by context, that the "*all*" above must mean "all H&K's rifles."
It surely can't be applied to H&K's pistols. My P9S-45 will feed and function
with just about any ammo mixed up and shoved into the magazine in any order.
Hardball, light lead SWC target loads, hollow points, anything. It all feeds
fires and functions with the same spring, unlike most Browning-action semi-
autos. I guess you can tell, I like that gun.
--
Donald R. Newcomb * University of Southern Mississippi
dnew...@whale.st.usm.edu * "The God who gave us life gave us liberty
dnew...@falcon.st.usm.edu * at the same time." T. Jefferson (1774)