Firing modern .32 smith & wesson in an old Iver Johnson revolver?
Ryan
revolver for her birthday. It was made between 1897-1908. I've read
some places on the internet
(http://www2.arkansas.net/~sws1/ijfaq004.htm#specificammo) that it was
made to use black powder .32 S&W cartridges.
But from reading this page
(http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/p32sw.html) it says that the
.32 S&W cartridge eventually became a smokeless powder cartridge.
When it became a smokeless cartridge, they didn't up the power, did
they? They used just enough smokeless powder to have about the same
enegery it did before in black powder?
I'm wondering if it's safe to fire modern .32 S&, which isn't really a
'modern' cartridge at all, I guess, so maybe I should call it
'currently made .32S&W'... is it safe to shoot this old gun with
today's ammo?
This gun has been fired before, but it may have been a long time ago.
We probably won't shoot it very often, maybe once every few years.
Thanks for any help.
-Ryan
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Charles Winters
hard to find. The more common .32 S&W long, the round used in
international target shooting, will not fit in the little short cylinder
of you IJ. If you check the ballistic tables for factory ammo of the
original short round, you will find it is loaded to very low pressure
levels to be safe in older break top revolvers of the type you have. If
you pistol is in good condition, its probably OK to fire with modern
ammo, but better to proceed carefully and gather some more advice, do
some more research before pulling that trigger. Iver Johnson was one of
the better quality makers of .32 break tops in that era. - CW
Ryan wrote:
> ...
Clark Magnuson
~$35 each at gun shows over the past two years. I am getting better at
repairing them.
I don't know of any 32S&W ammo for sale.
I have been hand loading my own ammo.
I take 32 Colt New Police [32 S&W Long] brass cases and trim the length
to .605" case length [32acp brass will work as is, but don't extract as
well due to the small rim].
I use 32acp dies.
The SAAMI spec for the 32 S&W cartridge:
.890" < Over all length < .930"
.044" < rim thickness < .054"
.333" < case body diameter < .339"
.585" < case length < .605"
.309" < bullet diameter < .315"
.366" < rim diameter < .378"
I also shoot 32acp cartridges in 32S&W revolvers [the extraction is not
as good with the tiny rims, but tipping the muzzle up, it works].
The Iver Johnson collector's site you mention warns not to shoot
smokeless powder. That didn't stop me. I have incrementally overloaded
with smokeless powder to see what happens. The eye of the latch
stretches. This is not a direct pressure phenomena, but directly from
recoil on the barrel mass and bullet friction. This is my "don't try
this at home" load: [32 S&W 4.3 gr Blue Dot, 71 gr FMJ FP, stretched
latch on Iver Johnson].
What I like for a load is something with less bullet friction and
recoil:
1 gr Bullseye [or 2 gr Unique], Hornady #6003 .315" lead ball, and it
works better with some kind of over powder wad(s) made of poly propylene
[or tablet backing cardboard]. To get the wad punched in place, I
chamfer the inside of the case mouth until sharp. Then I put the case
with powder in the press and put a 28 ga poly over powder wad over the
case and a stick of wood over that. When I raise the press ram, the
sharp case cookie cutters a wad into the case [the wad material was
trapped between the case mouth and the stick]. I then put the ball over
the wad and press into the stick again.
Seafin 41
Even at the same power levels, smokleless powder puts more strain on a
revolver than black. While modern .32 S&W cartridges are unlikely to blow up
your gun, constant use of them will eventually loosen it up.
You can get black powder .32 S&W cartridges from custom loaders who service the
Cowboy Action Shooting trade. They are, of course, expensive. My advice would
be to keep that old gun as a wall hanger heirloom and get your wife a modern
revolver to shoot.
Regards,
Phil
Kenneth Coney
scalp with the top strap when it let go.
Clark Magnuson wrote:
#
Russell Smith
I too have an old top break revolver that was made in 1898, it used the .32
S&W long cartridge, I have been using it for many years now and have had no
problems with it, I do give it a going over before and after shooting it.
Rusty in NC
"Ryan" <zirc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:art73u$924$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
Clark Magnuson
# See Keith "on handguns" in which he relates experiencing a top break part his
# scalp with the top strap when it let go.
I have stretched the latch on quite a few break tops and broken the top
strap and split the cylinder [Shrapnel to the right and left] on quite a
few swing out revolvers, but I have never got parts to fly from a
breaktop.
How did he do it?
Kenneth Coney
condition from somewhere and ammo of dubious source which seemed to fit and he
started plinking when it suddenly let go. (As it was on the second shot I
suspect the cylinder didn't fully rotate, and with their youth they didn't see
it in time.) Anyway, the barrel went one way, and something went through his
hair and they found the top strap all mangled and bent by some rocks behind him,
so in his words an inch lower and he wouldn't have lived to write about it. He
threw what was left in his hand as far away as he could and never shot another
one.
Jeff CM
I have an old Iver Johnson .32 as well as a Meridan hammerless. I
wouldn't shoot them with smokeless cartridges. I don't know that it is
dangerous, but there are numerous accounts of them "shooting loose."
Besides, shooting BP rounds is a lot more fun.
Agree with Clarks claim that the streatching of the latch involves the
transfer of inertial forces from the bullet to the barrel/cylinder
assembly. To minimize this you want a bullet that will engage the
rifling and seal against gas cutting with minimal friction. In theory,
a 32 cal. round ball, such as "0" buckshot, should be ideal. Some
people advocate 1g Bullseye topped with a piece of shot seated just
enough to shave a ring of lead. Also, while the bullet is in the
barrel, the barrel is a closed space on which pressure can exert its
force. The problem here, is that black powder and smokeless loads of
equal power and MV, will have vastly different pressure curves. Same
result, but different mechanics. BP has a rapid, high pressure spike
(detonation)that drops precipitously vs smokeless with a lower but
much more prolonged period of high pressure (burn). Because of this,
smokeless will maintain a high level of pressure throughout the
bullet's transit through the barrel.
I have used cut down .32 ACP brass, but you can get the real thing
cheaply from Midway. Never try .32 ACP cartridges in these guns! They
won't even chamber in mine, but might in some (such as the old H&Rs).
I use .5cc fffg (about 4g) from a Lee dipper topped with .311 100g LRN
bullets that I cast. I pack the bullet grooves with BP lube and they
shoot fine. With these bullets, I can't get much more powder in the
cases without bulging (could probably do better if I used a drop
tube). I've considered trying roundballs, but by the time you add an
over-powder disk and lube, you won't gain much powder space. In BP .38
SPL, that I load for an old Orbea, I punch overpowder disks from milk
cartons and put a dab of lube on top. The disks prevent the lube from
contaminating the powder and I believe they have a gas check effect as
well.
Clark, how the heck can you overload .32 with BP? Were you refering to
smokeless?
Anyway, it's a lot of fun and would be a great way to get into
reloading. For under $100 (Lee hand press kit, dies, and dipper, along
with components for 600-700 rounds), you have everything you need for
a lot of shooting. You'll find that your IJ will draw some attention
at the range with the POW and smoke. "Hey lady, what ya shootin in
that thing?"
Regards,
Jeff
zirc...@yahoo.com (Ryan) wrote in message news:<art73u$924$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>...
> ...
Clark Magnuson
Jeff CM wrote:
#
# Agree with Clarks claim that the streatching of the latch involves the
# transfer of inertial forces from the bullet to the barrel/cylinder
# assembly.
When I showed a stretched latch to an old gun designer, and told him I
had loaded up too much pressure, he corrected me. He said that the
forces on the latch are:
1) ~Half the recoil on the barrel mass [other ~half shared with break
action hinge]
2) Bullet friction in the barrel
It was so hard for me to finally visualize this, I have always wanted to
experiment by putting a breaktop frame in a vice, shooting a hot load
with and undersized bullet, and pinning the latch with a wooden tooth
pick.
# Clark, how the heck can you overload .32 with BP? Were you refering to
# smokeless?
Blue Dot is smokeless powder.
The 32 S&W loads are in excess of 32acp max book loads.
The 38 S&W loads are in excess of 9mm max book loads.
Not that the pressure of these load affected the latches directly, but
the recoil was heavy and the jacketed bullets had lots of friction.
These loads are then examples of what not to do:
1) 32 S&W 4.3 gr Blue Dot, 71 gr FMJ FP, stretched eye of latch on old
model Iver Johnson
2) 38 S&W 7.9 gr Blue Dot, 158 gr JHP, .357", elongated eye of latch
.0035" later model Iver Johnson
3) 38 S&W 6.2 gr Blue Dot, 158 gr JHP, .357", elongated eye of latch
.0200" pre 1898 Iver Johnson
I am with you, Jeff, the soft lead ball and small powder charge is the
way to appreciate these old revolvers.
Clark