QUESTION about 1903 rifling
d_pe...@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Hello everyone,
I was at a show over the weekend and saw a 1903 Springfield in *really*
good shape. It's overall apprearance, and that of the bore, left me
with the impression this gun had been lovingly cared for ....... but had
been shot a 'ca-zillion' rounds (it had an almost smooth bore).
Now the 'interesting' part. A guy i know personally, and generally trust
about gun matters, said that the barrel on this '03 was just the way it was
supposed to be! In fact, he said, it was "primo". "It's a 2 groove barrel
and that is the way they look", he said.
As i said, this guy is known to me, and i have relied on his knowledge and
help over the years for a variety of gun things. BUT, ... this seems .....
ah .... well .........!!?
QUESTION - Are two groove barrels supposed to look as if they are shot out?
That is, is the rifling in a 2 groover so shallow it makes them look like
they have almost no rifling left? (i wasn't able to tell *how* many grooves
this barrel had, it was so smooth.) Is it a 'guvmint' or 1903 thing? (This
barrel was ordnance stamped 8-41).
Your thoughts, knowledge, ..... speculation(?) :) .......... welcome.
Regards,
-dave -= d_pe...@uoft02.utoledo.edu =-
Edward J. Begley
#
# QUESTION - Are two groove barrels supposed to look as if they are shot out?
# That is, is the rifling in a 2 groover so shallow it makes them look like
# they have almost no rifling left? (i wasn't able to tell *how* many grooves
# this barrel had, it was so smooth.) Is it a 'guvmint' or 1903 thing? (This
# barrel was ordnance stamped 8-41).
#
All M-1903's were made with four lands and groves.
All M-1903-A2's (tank gun barrel sub-caliber rifles) were made with four
lands and groves.
All M-1903-A3's were made with two lands and two groves, with the
exception of those designated for use by the Marines, which had six* lands
and groves.
The M-1903-A4's (sniper rifle with scope) appear to have been made with
either two, four, or six lands and groves, depending on which service they
were designated for. The Marines refused issue of all two land and grove
barrels.
If your rifle were an M-1903, or M-1903-A2, it's serial number would always
begin with a "1". All M-1903-A3's & A-4's had serial numbers beginning
with 3, 4, or 5. Some M-1903-A4's had serial numbers beginning with a "Z".
An old friend tells me that the M-9103-A4's with the "Z" serial numbers
were six grove barrels for use by the Marines. Note: I have not been
able to confirm this with documentation.
The Marine Corps refused the two grove barrels, not so much because they
were only slightly less accurate than the four grove barrels, but because
they had a shorter barrel life. Nor can I confirm that any M-1903's,
A2's, A-3's, or A-4's was ever made originally with the six grove barrels.
However my own M-1903-A3 has six land and groves. It 3476XXX serial
number indicates the it was made shortly before official adoption of the
M-1903-A3, and may have been a test rifle, not intended for issue.
The four grove barrels were expected to last about 20,000 rounds, and
your two grove barrel should be serviceable for at least 15,000 rounds.
Because all two grove barrels were wartime production, you will find a
very wide variation in the bore measurements. Some will shoot as
accurately as a four grove barrel, and others will not. The wear pattern
in the two grove barrel is such that after only a few hundred rounds it
will take on the appearance of a smoothbore. You might want to have it
bore-gauged at both breech-end, and muzzle-end if you have any doubts.
Good luck,
Ed
Cwazy Wabbit
d_pe...@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
# QUESTION - Are two groove barrels supposed to look as if they are shot out?
# That is, is the rifling in a 2 groover so shallow it makes them look like
# they have almost no rifling left? (i wasn't able to tell *how* many grooves
# this barrel had, it was so smooth.) Is it a 'guvmint' or 1903 thing? (This
# barrel was ordnance stamped 8-41).
#
# Your thoughts, knowledge, ..... speculation(?) :) .......... welcome.
I have several exc-mint condition M1903s and 03A3s, with both 2-groove
barrels and 4-groove barrels. (most WWII barrels were 2-groove,while
pre-war M1903 barrels are 4-groove. There are some exceptions of course
). The rifling in these barrels is quite visible and distinct. You
would NOT confuse them with a "shot-out barrel".
B-jay
[Ã] No guns * [Ã] No rights * [Ã] No future * [Ã] No shit
Edward J. Begley
# On 3 Mar 1995 09:29:40 -0500, you were secretly monitored by InterNET
# security as typing...
#
# >All M-1903-A3's were made with two lands and two groves, with the
# >exception of those designated for use by the Marines, which had six* lands
# >and groves.
#
# I'd be careful about the above statements Ed... I hold in my hand a
# Smith-Corona 1903A3 with six groves and lands (origianl barrel)... and
# *every* S-C I have ever seen have 6 grooves. I seriously doubt that all
# S-C rifles were going to the Marines! My rifle is in original mint
# condition and has no signs of being destined for the Marine Corp. (no
# special front sight).
#
# The way I recollect, Hatcher's Notebook explained that the two grove
# barrel was adopted sometime after Remington discovered it was cheaper to
# manufacture and that accuracy did not suffer appreciably from the 4 grove
# barrel. This was one change of the many adopted after Remington started
# making them. You can't say "all" 1903A3 have 2 grove barrels, because
# they actually started making the changes over a period of time, *then* the
# A3 designation was adopted. I could be wrong, but this is what I recall
# Hatcher's notebook explaining.
#
# Best regards,
#
# John
#
# --
# "...the Second Amendment is not for killing little ducks and leaving Huey
# and Dewey and Louis without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting
# politicians, like [in] Grozny, [or back in] 1776, when they take your
# independence away!"
#
# - California Rep. Bob Dornan, Congressional Record, 25 January, 1995
#
# jla...@halcyon.com | Personal Freedom
# pers...@netcom.com | Personal Liberty
# Conservative Libertarian | Personal Responsibility
# NRA Life Member |
# WAC Member | Don't Tread on Me!
#
Please reread ALL of my post. You'll see that I acknowledge several six
grove exceptions. You may be correct that Not all six grove M-1903-A3's
went to the Marines. I was only four years old and couldn't keep track
of all of them.
I enlisted in 1957, and it was not at all uncommon for our senior NCO's
to spend hours reliving WW-II in the barracks. This is where I gathered
the information about the Marines refusing the two grove barreled
M-1903-A3's. Perhaps I should acknowledge that Marine NCO's sometimes
tell less than the complete truth, hard as that may be to believe.
I believe that I noted that some of my information was second hand, word
of mouth.
As I recall, Hatcher makes no mention whatsoever of the six grove M-1903's.
My M-1903-A3-A3, like yours shows no sign of rebarreling. It was
however, sporterized with some serious modifications to the stock, And
has a peepsight hand made by Philip (Shorty) Robinson, many years ago.
The sight replaces the knob on the rear end of the bolt to give a longer
sight radius. Unlike other M-1903-A3's, mine originally had a leaf sight
mounted on the barrel, which is another reason I believe it may have been
some sort od test rifle, not intended for issue.
CLEARLY, THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO EVERY RULE.
R/s
Ed
Doug White
#
#
#Hello everyone,
#
#I was at a show over the weekend and saw a 1903 Springfield in *really*
#good shape. It's overall apprearance, and that of the bore, left me
#with the impression this gun had been lovingly cared for ....... but
had
#been shot a 'ca-zillion' rounds (it had an almost smooth bore).
#
#Now the 'interesting' part. A guy i know personally, and generally
trust
#about gun matters, said that the barrel on this '03 was just the way it
was
#supposed to be! In fact, he said, it was "primo". "It's a 2 groove
barrel
#and that is the way they look", he said.
#
#As i said, this guy is known to me, and i have relied on his knowledge
and
#help over the years for a variety of gun things. BUT, ... this seems
....
#ah .... well .........!!?
#
#QUESTION - Are two groove barrels supposed to look as if they are shot
out?
#That is, is the rifling in a 2 groover so shallow it makes them look
like
#they have almost no rifling left? (i wasn't able to tell *how* many
grooves
#this barrel had, it was so smooth.) Is it a 'guvmint' or 1903 thing?
(This
#barrel was ordnance stamped 8-41).
#
#Your thoughts, knowledge, ..... speculation(?) :) .......... welcome.
#
#Regards,
# -dave -= d_pe...@uoft02.utoledo.edu =-
#
I used to shoot our club's Springfield. A few years ago, I was
practicing with it, and it started keyholing something fierce. I looked
down the bore, and the rifling sort of faded in about half way down the
bore. We rebarreled it, and it shot great. It was rebarreled with a 2
groove barrel, and the rifling was quite apparent. It sounds like this
one is completely shot out. The good news is that you can probably get
it rebarreled for not much more than $100.
Doug White
K. Karcich
I agree with this. Further, many times the 2groove barrels are more accurate
than the four or six groove barrels...it depends much more on the
dimensions and smoothness of the individual barrel than on the averages of
all barrels.
regards, Ken Karcich
Russ Kepler
<d_pe...@uoft02.utoledo.edu> wrote:
#QUESTION - Are two groove barrels supposed to look as if they are shot out?
#That is, is the rifling in a 2 groover so shallow it makes them look like
#they have almost no rifling left? (i wasn't able to tell *how* many grooves
#this barrel had, it was so smooth.) Is it a 'guvmint' or 1903 thing? (This
#barrel was ordnance stamped 8-41).
Strange - the 2 groove barrels were not approved or made previous to
1943, according to Hatcher in _Hatcher's Notebook_.
--
Russ Kepler posting from home ru...@bbxrbk.basis.com
Please don't feed the Engineers
John Will
CW># That is, is the rifling in a 2 groover so shallow it makes them look like
CW># they have almost no rifling left?
...
CW>I have several exc-mint condition M1903s and 03A3s, with both 2-groove
CW>barrels and 4-groove barrels. (most WWII barrels were 2-groove,while
CW>pre-war M1903 barrels are 4-groove. There are some exceptions of course
CW>). The rifling in these barrels is quite visible and distinct. You
CW>would NOT confuse them with a "shot-out barrel".
My 03A3, does indeed have the two groove barrel, and it certainly doesn't
look "shot-out" either. :-) The rifling is distinct and sharp. It is the
only gun I have with a two groove barrel... :-)