What's trigger creep?
Doug Kanter
have it? Is it as embarrassing as dandruff, or the heartbreak of psoriasis?
Should I keep it a secret from my significant other, until I've seen my
doctor? Is it curable (with a Kahr K-40, or S&W model 25)?
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wff...@bellsouth.net
seconds (puts 2 shots in the outer edges of the target) He has the tube mag
loader so he can do it again ;-)
Really, It is when you pull the trigger back to take the slack out, then it
is firm for 1/4" of "creep" then "breaks" (releases the hammer). As opposed
to a clean "break" When you get to the frim part you move it back 1 RCH
(thickness of fine red hair) "breaks". I'm sure someone else can explain
it better, but I would only tell my gunsmith.
lyndo
"Doug Kanter" <ancien...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cqnkob$ch3$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
psoriasis?
> ...
photo35744
before the firing pin is released to fire the round. A hair trigger has no
creep and some are so light that a gloved finger will fire the weapon.
"Doug Kanter" <ancien...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cqnkob$ch3$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
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Joel Rosenberg
# Gun reviews always mention trigger creep. What is it? How do I know if I
# have it? Is it as embarrassing as dandruff, or the heartbreak of psoriasis?
# Should I keep it a secret from my significant other, until I've seen my
# doctor? Is it curable (with a Kahr K-40, or S&W model 25)?
Trigger creep is when you feel the trigger moving less than smoothly
before it breaks and fires -- a smooth movement is usually referred to
as "take-up." (There are those who define "trigger creep" as *any*
movement before it breaks and fires, the theory being that the trigger
is always supposed to stay put entirely until it breaks and fires.
That's a theory that works pretty well for single-action operation,
but most -- all, I'd guess -- double-action weapons are supposed to
have the trigger move back a bit before it fires the gun.)
Neil Harris
Below info is from two sources:
http://www.airgunexpress.com/techarticlestriggers.htm
Take up is the amount of movement or distance the trigger shoe will
travel rearward before the sear is engaged. Sometimes people confuse
this with creep. Creep is how far the trigger shoe has to travel after
the sear is engaged and before the sear breaks.
http://www.fulton-armory.com/2stage.htm
from rec.guns... Most civilian rifle triggers are single stage. When
you place your finger on it and apply pressure, the trigger shouldn't
move at all, until it "breaks" and the gun fires. If it does move,
it's called "take-up", and usually considered a Bad Thing.
Actually, what you lable as "take-up" in the above para, is called
creep, and trigger "creep" is what is considered a "bad thing."
Take-up is all together another phenom.
So let's understand the differences between "take-up" and "creep."
Take-up is a wonderfully replicated feeling/action, found in 2 stage
triggers, in preparation of firing, and creep is when you think you
are trying to fire, but you just seem to keep pulling the trigger & it
does not break cleanly. Creep is found in both single & double stage
triggers.
Paul Cassel
# Gun reviews always mention trigger creep. What is it? How do I know if I
# have it?
trigger travel before letoff.
Kay Archer
# have it? Is it as embarrassing as dandruff, or the heartbreak of
psoriasis?
# Should I keep it a secret from my significant other, until I've seen my
# doctor? Is it curable (with a Kahr K-40, or S&W model 25)?
#
The distance the trigger travels before the firearm discharges (does not
apply to double action firing). Smoothness and crispness are important
factors and safety (no hair-triggers allowed!) is an important issue.
Long Ranger
Trigger creep is the distance your trigger moves before let-off. (In a
cocked action. Not to be confused with trigger "travel" like a double action
revolver has.) Most people like little or no trigger creep, or a "clean
breaking" trigger. It is distracting to feel the trigger moving without the
firing mechanism functioning. Some triggers will actually creep and then
remain where you quit pulling on them. This leaves you not knowing if a
shock will set the gun off, or if it is going to "creep" some more. If you
get used to creep in a trigger, it is then an adjustment to fire a gun with
more or less creep. It can be quite frustrating. Therefore, most marksmen
want their rifles to have the same amount (none) of creep, so they don't
have to adjust between rifles. It is simple, and comforting to know that
your rifle will fire when you apply the right amount of pressure to the
trigger without waiting for it to get past an uncertain point of release.
Frank Silbermann
#
# Trigger creep is when you feel the trigger moving less than smoothly
# before it breaks and fires -- a smooth movement is usually referred to
# as "take-up." That's a theory that works pretty well for single-action
# operation, but most -- all, I'd guess -- double-action weapons are
# supposed to have the trigger move back a bit before it fires the gun.)
Many European handguns seem to be designed to have a bit of smooth movment
in single-action mode even after the sear engages but before it breaks.
My Bersa's single-action let-off is like that, too -- it feels sort of
like an ultra-short ultra-light double-action trigger. In fact, the hammer
is indeed pushed back a barely perceptible amount during the single-action
squeeze, so I guess the difference between this versus the pre-set striker
of a Glock or Kahr is just a matter of degree.
The crisp trigger of a 1911 or a cocked revolver probably has advantages
when shooting at targets that pop up from behind cover (because less
movement may allow you to get the shot off quicker), but the smooth
European-style creepy trigger may make it easier to avoid flinching
(much like the surprise break of a smooth double-action trigger).
Dwight Gruber
--DwightG
"Kay Archer" <kayhyph...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:cqq4og$c0p$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
Doug Kanter
weekend. Pehaps I can get a demo.
Kay Archer
"Dwight Gruber" <dwi...@pacifier.com> wrote in message
news:cqrkq7$fb$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# If you want to know what trigger creep is, arrange to fire a Luger.
#
# --DwightG
#
You can cut the creep out a lot if you just use the upper reciever... (g, d,
r).
A 'feature' of the Luger design is that it can be fired as a single shot
with the upper reciever separated from the lower reciever.
Rick Courtright
# like an ultra-short ultra-light double-action trigger. In fact, the hammer
# is indeed pushed back a barely perceptible amount during the single-action
My CZ-75B does the same. Noticeable when dry firing, not noticeable when
live firing. Can't say it has any effect on flinching, etc.
I know two stage triggers drive some shooters up the wall, but I prefer
the slight bit of slack in my Ruger Mk II that imitates the true two
stage military trigger on my Enfield. Probably personal preference more
than anything.
Rick
Sawfish
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I would make respectful exception tothe last part, Frank.
I think the reason even a very good double action feels like a surprise is
precisley because the trigger has moved backward without giving much
warning when it will go off. This is a lot like unwanted trigger creep.
The attribute that makes it tolerable is that with most really good double
action pistols I've fired, there's a spot where you can feel that the
hammer is back and you are very close to tripping the hammer. You can
easily hold this spot until you are satisfied with the site picture, then
squeeze just a bit more, firing the pistol.
This is an acceptable compromise, but I still much prefer the same
mechanism in SA.
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"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. But give a man a boat,
a case of beer, and a few sticks of dynamite..." -- Sawfish
Sawfish
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I respectfully disagree. Let's discuss the phenomenon is SA, the
purest model.
There should be NO movement of the rigger once the sear is engaged. Any
such movement is "creep" and introduces an element of uncertainty into
when the hammer drops. This is not good.
On the other hand, in most pistols, the trigger will freely move backward
just a little before the sear is engaged. This is "take-up", and it is a
matter of opinion whether this is good or not.
After the hammer has been tripped, the trigger will travel further still.
This is referred to as "over-travel". It is not good to have too much of
this, either, since it increases slightly the tendency to "curl" the
muzzle away from the target for subsequent shots. Many pistols have a
little screw (often rubber-faced) that limits over-travel.
"travel" describes the total movement of the trigger: take-up, if any;
creep (let's hope not!), and over-travel. For double action, take-up and
creep can be blurred, since the trigger necessarily performs a dual role:
move the hammer back into the cocked position, then engage the sear and
eventaully drop the hammer after a clean break. That's why I prefer an SA
trigger.
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"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. But give a man a boat,
a case of beer, and a few sticks of dynamite..." -- Sawfish
Sawfish
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I'd like to discuss this a bit further.
I have two pistols that have adjustable triggers. They are SA only (EAA
Witness and CZ75--very similar). With the take-up adjustment screw
uncalibrated, there is a small amount of slack, during which time the
trigger, itself, moves back until it engages the sear. This is "take-up".
In a perfect world, you could, if you wanted, adjust the "take-up" so
that, when you put your finger on the trigger and squeezed, the next thing
that would happen would be a clean break.
What actually happens on these pistols is that once so adjusted, there is
an almost imperceptible amount of movement of the trigger before it
breaks,and the hammer drops. It would be ideal to have no such movement
(creep).
The closest experience I've had to zero creep is with S&W revolvers in SA.
I'm sure others have had more impressive experiences.
I *like* a little take-up, and have adjusted both pistols to have a very
small amount of take-up. It sort of serves as a safety check: any further
pressure will release the hammer.
> ...
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"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. But give a man a boat,
a case of beer, and a few sticks of dynamite..." -- Sawfish
Steve & Leslie Swartz
mechanical trigger, you are *always* going to have some non-zero amount of
trigger movement (creep) as the mechanism disengages from some type of
"sear." Best match-grade triggers will have creep measured in 10+ thousands
of an inch.
Think about it.
Yes, yes, smaller is better. Yes, Yes, at some point the "creep" is
re-a-a-a-a-aly hard to notice.
But it is always there. Match grade mechanical, 30 or so thousandths.
"Service" type pistols, tenth of inch or larger! A highly polished, smooth
"creep" is actually not necessarily a bad thing.
The best you can do is use a "sear-less" electronic trigger (like high-end
Morini air pistols). With those fire control systems, the "creep" is
limited by the distance required to break an electronic circuit- less than 1
thousandth of an inch.
To the typical Joe Bubba (NRA High Master Bullseye shooter), 50 thousandths
is probably very acceptable. AAMOF, many shooters prefer a smooth creep of
up to 100 thousands- they call that a "roll trigger!"
Running, Ducking, Grinning . . . donning asbestos 'net wear . . .
--
*********************************
Steve & Leslie Swartz
Abolish the Police State
and
the Welfare State
VOTE LIBERTARIAN!
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"Sawfish" <m...@q7.com> wrote in message
news:cqsi27$b6k$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
Jim Gaynor
"
# trigger creep. What is it?
Name for anyone seen firing a handgun sideways -- a la "gangsta style"
Ken Grubb
#Gun reviews always mention trigger creep. What is it?
Those are a group of guys who used to hang around Roy Rogers. Roy
NEVER let 'em near his horse.
Ken Grubb
Bellevue, WA, USA
Kwiter
Bridgeport and drilled and tapped thru and put a set screw in there to
remove the creep, gotta leave a SLIGHT amount of creep else the trigger
won't reset tho ;-) That and some parts from Volquartsen make this a
sweet little shooter!
http://wishe.webhop.org
http://www.cafepress.com/ohkwari
PMediaS
after the sear breaks.
Creep is movement of the sear on the hammer before the sear breaks. Most people
like a crisp breaking trigger with no movement before the sear breaks. Gun
writers will say the trigger broke "like a glass rod."
In the Bullseye world, I've heard of "crisp" triggers with no creep and "roll"
triggers where the trigger moves very smoothly and "rolls" before the sear
breaks. I've never shot a gun with a "roll" trigger, but many High Masters
(guys that can put 10 rounds of .45 acp into a 3 inch circle at 50 yards
shooting one handed) that swear by them.
Randy
Ken Marsh
Paul Cassel <pa...@abq.com> wrote:
#trigger travel before letoff.
That would be my definition of take-up.
By your definition, all military rifles with two-stage triggers would
have creep- and that's just not so.
Ken.
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