M98 Large Ring vs Small Ring
Scott
small ring Mauser actions? How can you tell them apart visually? I
want to build up a light weight sporter in .308, preferrably on a
Mauser 98 action. Should I be looking specifically for a small ring
action?
Thanks for the help.
--
Scott
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Steve
:-) Briefly,the small ring mauser rifles are models
'91,'92(?),'93,'94,'95 and'96.The portion of the receiver where the
barrel threads in is notably smaller in diameter than the same portion
of the receiver you would see on the typical model '98.The '98 is known
as a large ring.Technically,a .308 Winchester barrel can be put on a
small ring action but your search for a gunsmith who will do it will
most likely be discouraging.They want to use a large ring action for the
pressures this cartridge generates.Give the gunsmith his due! It's a
difficult job that requires much knowledge,expertise,expensive tools,and
no small amount of diplomatic skill.(He has to explain things to would
be "know it alls" like me.) The readily available model VZ-24 actions
are a steal right now and have .308 custom sporter written all over
them.Don't forget the cost of the stock,
bolt handle forging,safety,or trigger. Best of luck.
steve
1...@canoemail.com
small ring receivers. The barrel shank thread daiameter is very
similar, if not the same as the Mauser 95.
Also there is enough safety margin in the thickness of the receiver to
make up for the smaller barrel shank. Remember the barrel shank is
supported by the receiver ring. Some gunsmiths may agree, some may
disagree. The Spanish military has rebarreled M-95s in .308 with no
problems reported.
On 8 May 2000 09:46:22 -0400, stev...@webtv.net (Steve) wrote:
> ...
George E. Mays
#Contrary to what some would have you believe,ignorance is NOT a virtue.
#:-) Briefly,the small ring mauser rifles are models
#'91,'92(?),'93,'94,'95 and'96.The portion of the receiver where the
#barrel threads in is notably smaller in diameter than the same portion
#of the receiver you would see on the typical model '98.The '98 is known
#as a large ring.Technically,a .308 Winchester barrel can be put on a
#small ring action but your search for a gunsmith who will do it will
#most likely be discouraging.They want to use a large ring action for the
#pressures this cartridge generates.Give the gunsmith his due! It's a
#difficult job that requires much knowledge,expertise,expensive tools,and
#no small amount of diplomatic skill.(He has to explain things to would
#be "know it alls" like me.) The readily available model VZ-24 actions
#are a steal right now and have .308 custom sporter written all over
#them.Don't forget the cost of the stock,
#bolt handle forging,safety,or trigger. Best of luck.
I only work on Vz-24s, but a buddy of mine claims that there was a
small ring Mauser built on the '98 pattern called the 'Mexican
Mauser'. He claims that it will stand up to modern cartridge
pressures as well as a large ring. He also says they are pretty rare.
George
-----------------
Bill Clinton: He'd kill for the Nobel Peace Prize
SRF
to give you the exact numbers, maybe its on the Net somewhere. You want the
large ring as it is stronger. The small ring is very marginal for a high
pressure cartridge like the .308.
Suggestion - there are a bunch of Mausers that have been converted to .308
by various government arsenals. You will significantly reduce the amount of
time and money spent by getting one of these and going from there.
Good luck.
Steve.
Scott <stim...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8f59ak$cb8$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
Edward Arnold
enough to consider building a .308 around, and that's the Model 1936 Mexican
Mauser, a very sweet and handsome thing indeed. Also, practically impossible
to find, since they started coming into the US back in the '50's, and I
doubt if there are many left that have not been already built into guns. For
a super-light gun, the best choice would probably be the Remington Model 7,
which is about as slenderized as you can get without resorting to
titanium...
IMHO
Ed Arnold
KYRIEELLIS
<snip>
#Also there is enough safety margin in the thickness of the receiver to
#make up for the smaller barrel shank. Remember the barrel shank is
#supported by the receiver ring. Some gunsmiths may agree, some may
#disagree. The Spanish military has rebarreled M-95s in .308 with no
#problems reported.
Respectfully, the Spanish did not. What they did was to convert M1896
Mausers to 7.62x51 CETME. These rifles are being sold under the names "Civil
Guard" and "M1916" and a number have failed when used with 7.62x51 NATO or .308
Winchester.
Kyrie
Phil Schempf
Edward Arnold wrote:
# There is one full three-lug, M-98 based small ring Mauser action modern
# enough to consider building a .308 around, and that's the Model 1936 Mexican
# Mauser, a very sweet and handsome thing indeed.
Ed-
I've been confused about the 1936 Mexican Mauser for a long time. If I
understand correctly, the front receiver ring (1.3"), barrel shank length
(0.980") and thread size are the same size as small ring Mausers. If so, can
barrels for small ring Mausers be used on the '36 Mex. Mauser? Where does the
'36 MM get its strength from? Is it only the security offered by the third
lug? Seems like less steel would give a weaker action.
Kuhnhausen lists a number of M98 actions with dimensions of the small ring
Mauser (VZ-33, G33-40, VZ-47, and several commercial actions). I've never had
one in the hand, but I'd sure like the chance to inspect one.
A friend had a sale flyer from a surplus dealer that was selling 1936 actions
for $500 for 20. I suspect they were the bottom of the barrel, but I wish we
would have bought some. Seems like you should have been able to sort out a few
useable actions out of 20 of them.
Phil
Eric
>small ring receivers. The barrel shank thread daiameter is very
>similar, if not the same as the Mauser 95.
All of the Turk's I've seen are actually large ring actions but are cut for
the small ring barrel. I know of a few people re-barreling these actions
with barrels made for the Swedish 96. This actually gives more metal at the
ring.
Eric
Edward Arnold
the 'safety' lug that locks into the receiver behind the magazine well
(third lug). The bolt-handle turning into a cutout in the receiver serves
the same function on modern guns like the Remington 700, the Savage 110
series, etc. The idea is, if somehow the two front lugs are sheared off by
overpressure, the safety lug will at least keep the bolt in the gun, instead
of in your face. The lack of this safety lug on Mausers before the Model 98
is one of the issues about using them for hotter cartridges.
Another factor is heat-treatment, which before around WW1 was pretty much by
the experienced eye of the workman in charge: meaning, on a bright, sunny
day the parts might get a couple of hundred degrees more heat than on a dull
cloudy day, which could be the difference between a nice hard strong
receiver and one where the steel had been 'burnt' by overheating, resulting
in a brittle piece that could shatter upon impact. See Hatcher's Notebook
for some horror stories about the 'low-number' Springfield 1903s, Eddystone
M1917 receivers, and some batches of 1917 barrels, all of which had their
share of this defect. The implementing of Optical pyrometers and other
temperature measuring devices in the 1920's and beyond eliminated a lot of
these variables, which is why earlier manufacture actions are held suspect.
Speaking, as one poster did, about other small-ring actions, three decades
and more ago the hottest action for building a lightweight hunting rifle was
the Czech 33-40, which is not only finely made of top materials, and a
small-ring action, but has cuts in the bolt body and receiver (and I think a
hollow bolt knob!) that trimmed a few extra ounces off the usual. Needless
to say, the few remaining unmodified military rifles are way-big collectors
item, about the only way you'd find one today is off somebodies old sporter.
Another small-ring '98 design I don't think anyone mentioned was one of the
WW1 Kar98 German militaries, either the 98a or 98b, can't remember which,
and I've actually seen a few of these at gun shows at reasonable prices, but
I'd be a bit wary of strength, and also unless it was a total wreck it would
be destroying a scarce collectors piece to build just another '98 sporter
IMHO
Ed Arnold
----------
#From: Phil Schempf <sch...@alaska.net>
In article <8fa3i0$prl$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Phil Schempf
<sch...@alaska.net> wrote:
#I've been confused about the 1936 Mexican Mauser for a long time. If I
#understand correctly, the front receiver ring (1.3"), barrel shank length
#(0.980") and thread size are the same size as small ring Mausers. If so, can
#barrels for small ring Mausers be used on the '36 Mex. Mauser? Where does the
#'36 MM get its strength from? Is it only the security offered by the third
#lug? Seems like less steel would give a weaker action.
1...@canoemail.com
1...@canoemail.com writes:
#<snip>
##Also there is enough safety margin in the thickness of the receiver to
##make up for the smaller barrel shank. Remember the barrel shank is
##supported by the receiver ring. Some gunsmiths may agree, some may
##disagree. The Spanish military has rebarreled M-95s in .308 with no
##problems reported.
kyrie...@aol.com (KYRIEELLIS) wrote:
# Respectfully, the Spanish did not. What they did was to convert M1896
#Mausers to 7.62x51 CETME. These rifles are being sold under the names "Civil
#Guard" and "M1916" and a number have failed when used with 7.62x51 NATO or .308
#Winchester.
I stand corrected, thank you.
Do you have details on the number and causes of these failures?
JOHN GARAND
#
#1...@canoemail.com writes:
##<snip>
###Also there is enough safety margin in the thickness of the receiver to
###make up for the smaller barrel shank. Remember the barrel shank is
###supported by the receiver ring. Some gunsmiths may agree, some may
###disagree. The Spanish military has rebarreled M-95s in .308 with no
###problems reported.
#
# kyrie...@aol.com (KYRIEELLIS) wrote:
## Respectfully, the Spanish did not. What they did was to convert M1896
##Mausers to 7.62x51 CETME. These rifles are being sold under the names "Civil
##Guard" and "M1916" and a number have failed when used with 7.62x51 NATO or .308
##Winchester.
#
#I stand corrected, thank you.
#
#Do you have details on the number and causes of these failures?
Actually the Spanish government converted M-1916 7x57mm Mausers,
mostly made in the 1920s. The M-1916 is essentially an 1895 Carbine,
but is certainly NOT a '96 Mauser . Just for accuracy's sake. I
wouldn't buy one, but a larger number have not failed. The fact that
the gas handling capabilities are not up to the level of the M-98
action should cause careful consideration of these conversions.
Whether the action will hold together may be arguable, but a blown
primer can get downright dangerous in these rifles.