[RELOADING] RCBS case forming die: .45 ACP Shot Shell from .308 brass?
Dan Campbell
I've seen ads for an RCBS die (or die set?) that forms .45 ACP
shot shells from .308 brass. Are there any rec.gunnners that
have experience with this?
I'm interested in this partially because I tried some Remington
shot shells (Shot-Lokt) in .45 ACP that I really liked, but
they're no longer in production (and I don't like CCI shot shells).
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Jon
Nonte's book on handloading has some detail about the subject. You might
want to try using .45 Win. Mag brass to save you some effort in cutting
down cases.
Although I havent tried it, you might be able to form the shoulder by
partially running a sized case into a .44 Mag sizer die.
J.
Norman F. Johnson
Dan,
# I've seen ads for an RCBS die (or die set?) that forms .45 ACP
# shot shells from .308 brass. Are there any rec.gunnners that
# have experience with this?
# I'm interested in this partially because I tried some Remington
# shot shells (Shot-Lokt) in .45 ACP that I really liked, but
# they're no longer in production (and I don't like CCI shot shells.
Full length shot loads are made up from brass that will allow a
shot cartridge that is the same OAL as a standard bulleted car-
tridge in a given caliber. I use .308 or .30-06 brass to make up
my .45ACP shot cartridges and .303 British to make .44 Magnum
or .44 Special. The portion of the shot cartridge where the
bullet would normally extend is swaged down with a smaller die
for the proper length. For instance, the .44 Special/Magnum shot
cartridge is swaged with a .41 Magnum die for the appropriate
"bullet" section. This allows 50-100% more shot to be used than
is possible with traditional factory shot cartridges such as
the .22LR or .38 Special, both of which suffer from too small a
shot load.
Shot is held in a cut-to-length .410 shot cup. It is held in
place by a gas check that is inverted over the shot then crimped
with a suitable die so that the brass case just cuts into the gas
check's (very short) mid section. It actually cuts a little
crimp groove into the gas check. The resulting shot cartridge is
rugged enough to take normal field handling and withstand recoil
in the magazine and cylinder. If memory serves, I used a .375
gas check for .44 and .45 shot loads.
Incidentally, when the cases are cut off to appropriate length,
they should not be inside-chamfered. The sharp inside edge cuts
the crimp into the gas check.
For the .45 ACP, the easy way today is to get a set of RCBS .45
shot loading dies. That way you will not have to experiment with
dies, crimping tricks, etc. These will make loads that feed in
your 1911, unlike the old military issue shot loads that would not
cycle the action.
My full length REVOLVER shot loads were not all that successful
in that the cylinder was often tied up by case set back much as
was the S&W .22 Jet - the reason that revolver failed commercial-
ly. The .45 ACP shot loads used in the 1911 are 100% successful,
though.
# To what do you attribute the setback?
As in the firing of all conventional cartridges, the first move-
ment of the case sets it back against bolt or recoil shield,
which ever is appropriate to the gun. The case then expands to
fill the chamber. The pressure is such that (apparently) the
temporary enlargement of the chamber allows the case to expand so
that its natural contraction after firing leaves it larger than
when originally chambered - so much so that it is now wedged
between the bolt/recoil shield and the necked down portion of
the chamber. Since the recoil shield cannot move, one now has a
tied up cylinder. A similar thing happens to a bolt gun when
fired but the bolt is cammed away from the case head face.
I did a lot of chamber casts of many revolvers during that time
in attempt to relate the chamber shapes, especially the case-to-
bullet transition in revolver cylinders, to the set-back charac-
teristics. Some cylinders have very abrupt transitions while
others use a gentle, almost forcing cone transition.
I learned some things about revolver cylinders at that time but
was not able to correlate the aforementioned transition, chamber
roughness, or any other characteristic that I could think of to
set-back.
Annealing the case from dead soft to just a little made almost no
difference. Using old brass that was work hardened from many
loadings did not change things either. I tried many brands of
brass. Only one brand always worked dependably (cannot remember
which; no records here); the others had varying records. I have
no idea why that brand worked. Powder charges from heavy to very
light made no difference.
Contact with writers who had discussed shot loads was useless.
They all denied that they had any such problems. My feeling is
that they ignored the problem in order to write a "successful"
article. Only old Ken Waters would admit to ever having case
set-back and cylinder tie-up. And he said that it was not often.
In some of my reading of very old publications since I did those
experiments, the shooters drilled out the cylinders and bores to
make full length shot loads. Although they did not state that it
was so, evidently it was commonly known that cylinder tie-up
would occur if the cylinder chambers were not bored through.
Do not remove the rifling from your revolver barrel for better
shot performance. Ridiculous legislators have proclaimed this to
be unlawful.
I have used both .444 Marlin and .308 cases to make up .45 Colt
shot loads. Both work ok (except for the cylinder tie up
problems that I discussed).
The .444 Marlin rimmed case is necessary in the double action guns
for easy extraction. Either one is ok for single actions where
extraction is accomplished using the ejection rod.
Not related to the above, but handy:
Buck Shot Buck Shot
Size Diameter
00 .33
0 .32
1 .30
3 .25
4 .24
God Bless!
Norm
Dan Campbell
In <970126035...@marlin.nosc.mil>, njoh...@marlin.nosc.mil (Norman F. Johnson) writes:
| Dan,
|
| # I've seen ads for an RCBS die (or die set?) that forms .45 ACP
| # shot shells from .308 brass. Are there any rec.gunnners that
| # have experience with this?
| # I'm interested in this partially because I tried some Remington
| # shot shells (Shot-Lokt) in .45 ACP that I really liked, but
| # they're no longer in production (and I don't like CCI shot shells.
|
| For the .45 ACP, the easy way today is to get a set of RCBS .45
| shot loading dies. That way you will not have to experiment with
| dies, crimping tricks, etc. These will make loads that feed in
| your 1911, unlike the old military issue shot loads that would not
| cycle the action.
Thanks for the in depth response. I have another question or two
raised by the quoted section above.
In Midway's catalog, I see two different die sets relating
to shot shells in .45 ACP. One is the set of case forming
dies I mentioned in original question. The second set is
just called ".45 ACP Shot Shell." Are both sets needed or
would either set do (the case forming die set is less than
$40, the other set is over $80)? I'm a little confused by
different die sets.
I "disassembled" a Remington Shot-Lokt cartridge and found
that the shot was separated from the powder by a plastic
cup, but otherwise was not contained in anything other than
the brass case. The top of the brass case was folded in and
crimped almost like a shotgun shell. These cartridges cycled
the action perfectly and felt just like any other .45 ACP
cartridge. Is it possible to duplicate these, or will I
always need a gas check to hold in the shot?