303 Ammo ID
John Burton
I've acquired some 303 ammo. Would like to know where it comes from, and
if it is corrosive. Not sure I want to shoot corrosive ammo in my "new"
No. 4 Mk 2. Details on ammunition is noted below.
1. In a cardboard box. Box lable sasy 303 inch, Mk 7, ISAA with an
arrow betweeen the Mk 7 and ISAA. Case heads have RG 53 7 on them.
2. No box. Case heads have SMI 937.
3. No box. Case heads have F N 51 on them.
Any help or information would be appreciated.
Thanks very much.
John Burton
Dave Bostock
Two references that I have used are Jane's Directory of Military Small
Arms ammunition by Ian V. Hogg and Cartridges Of The World by
Barnes/Mcpherson. On headstamps two digit numbers may be the year of
manufacture. For .303 British- VII and maybe 7 designate typical military
ball ammo. RG stands for - Royal Ordnance Factory, Radway Green.
Something to be real antsy about when identifying old ammo in addtion
to corrosive/erosive is that it's not something made for machine gun
use, which can happen with both rifle and pistol ammo.
John Burton (jbu...@itctel.com) wrote:
: I've acquired some 303 ammo. Would like to know where it comes from, and
: Thanks very much.
: John Burton
--
Dave Bostock dea...@dc.seflin.org South Florida, USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jonathan M. Spencer
In article <5mdduq$d...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, John Burton
<jbu...@itctel.com> writes
[snip]
#1. In a cardboard box. Box lable sasy 303 inch, Mk 7, ISAA with an
#arrow betweeen the Mk 7 and ISAA. Case heads have RG 53 7 on them.
Military issue, Mark 7, made at Radway Green in 1953. Unlikely to be
corrosive.
#2. No box. Case heads have SMI 937.
don't recognise it offhand
#3. No box. Case heads have F N 51 on them.
Fabrique National (Belgium), made in 1951. Unlikely to be corrosive.
--Jonathan
============================================================
Jonathan Spencer -- forensic firearms examiner
Mountjoy Research Centre, Durham, England, DH1 3UR
tel: +44 191 386 6107 fax: +44 191 383 0686
============================================================
Alexander Eichener
On 28 May 1997, Jonathan M. Spencer wrote:
# In article <5mdduq$d...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, John Burton
# <jbu...@itctel.com> writes
#
# #2. No box. Case heads have SMI 937.
#
# don't recognise it offhand
*Alexander puts on his Carcano hat* (yes, I have one - really !)
The code denotes "Societa Metallurgica Italiana, 1937". The strange
thing is that Italy did not use the .303 Lee-Enfields until after the
end of WW II. Either the SMI made a run on foreign contract, or
Italy has Bren MGs in use in 1937, or the date should really read "957"
and was misrendered.
--
Alexander Eichener, Heidelberg
New and old address, valid again: c...@ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de
Another address, already valid: c...@oink.rhein.de (a bit slower)
Do not use aeic...@ix.urz.uni-heidelberg.de anymore (mail is forwarded).
Dennis Kroh
Jonathan M. Spencer wrote:
#
# In article <5mdduq$d...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, John Burton
# <jbu...@itctel.com> writes
#
#
# #1. In a cardboard box. Box lable sasy 303 inch, Mk 7, ISAA with an
# #arrow betweeen the Mk 7 and ISAA. Case heads have RG 53 7 on them.
#
# Military issue, Mark 7, made at Radway Green in 1953. Unlikely to be
# corrosive.
#
Ooooo! Yes it is indeed corrosive, but it's no big deal... just clean
your rifle after firing (with a water-soluble solution... dishwashing
soap and water works extremely well, as does ammonia-based
glass-cleaners such as "Windex").
# #2. No box. Case heads have SMI 937.
#
# don't recognise it offhand
Societá Metallurgica Italiana, Sept. 1937 (manufactured ammo 1933-1973).
Corrosive for sure.
#
# #3. No box. Case heads have F N 51 on them.
#
# Fabrique National (Belgium), made in 1951. Unlikely to be corrosive.
#
Whoooooaaaa! Excuse me, but FN didn't manufacture a single
non-corrosive round until the mid-60's! Corrosive primers were
considered to last a lot longer than non-corrosive primers (which we now
know is a lie). The Eastern-Bloc even made corrosive-primed ammo well
into the 90's for that very reason.
It is much better to be careful than regretful.
Dennis Kroh, Empire Arms
Robert Walter
Mr. Spencer,
Saw your response re the query on .303 and thought you might be able to
help me ID some 9mm I got hold of a while back.
I have four 48 cartridge boxes marked:
9 M/M
Mark IIz
^
I.S.A.A.
H.3090
Headstamps are as follows:
H^N
9mm 44
IIZ
What I want to know is: Is this normal velocity pistol ammo?
Corrosive? And last, what does ISAA stand for?
Thanks for your time, Bob.
Jonathan M. Spencer <j...@salvage.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<5mhdlj$l...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
# In article <5mdduq$d...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, John Burton
# <jbu...@itctel.com> writes
#
# [snip]
#
# #1. In a cardboard box. Box lable sasy 303 inch, Mk 7, ISAA with an
# #arrow betweeen the Mk 7 and ISAA. Case heads have RG 53 7 on them.
#
# Military issue, Mark 7, made at Radway Green in 1953. Unlikely to be
# corrosive.
--snip--
# Jonathan Spencer -- forensic firearms examiner
# Mountjoy Research Centre, Durham, England, DH1 3UR
# tel: +44 191 386 6107 fax: +44 191 383 0686
Nicholas Besley
In message <5mfall$g...@xring.cs.umd.edu>
dea...@dc.seflin.org (Dave Bostock) writes:
# Two references that I have used are Jane's Directory of Military Small
# Arms ammunition by Ian V. Hogg and Cartridges Of The World by
# Barnes/Mcpherson. On headstamps two digit numbers may be the year of
# manufacture. For .303 British- VII and maybe 7 designate typical military
# ball ammo. RG stands for - Royal Ordnance Factory, Radway Green.
# Something to be real antsy about when identifying old ammo in addtion
# to corrosive/erosive is that it's not something made for machine gun
# use, which can happen with both rifle and pistol ammo.
Doesn't seem to be machine gun ammo: British/Commonwealth .303, 9mm
etc always had a suffix 'Z' eg: Mk VII Z - 9mm Mk II Z
On no account should you use any Mk ? Z in a No 4: the action is not
the strongest in the world and several have been known to split at
the receiver. A SMLE will take it, so will a P13 though it's not to
be recommended.
FN is the Belgian FN factory and the numbers are almost certainly
the dates. 937 is probably September 1937. The other two (51 & 53?)
were certainly datestamps.
The 'Broad Arrow' on the first box indicates that it was once the
property of HM Government. I would GUESS that ISAA is a batch code
though there is a wee suspicion that it might stand for something
like Incendiary Sabot Anti Aircraft or something similar. If you have
a ballistic round dismantler, remove a head and put it on a small
fire outside, if you have the facilities. If it doesn't catch fire,
the rest of the batch should be fine. If it does, the fired rounds
will burn your barrel.
Don't worry about the primers being corrosive unless after firing,
you are going to leave the rifle for several hours before cleaning
it. Just don't let the residues get damp and you should have no
problem. The propellant is most likely to be cordite. The residue of
this is slightly iffy if left too long: certain noxious nitrates
deliquesce in the barrel and this will begin munching the metal if you let it.
Tony
Ken Dieter
Dave Bostock wrote:
#
# Arms ammunition by Ian V. Hogg and Cartridges Of The World by
# Barnes/Mcpherson. On headstamps two digit numbers may be the year of
# manufacture. For .303 British- VII and maybe 7 designate typical military
# ball ammo. RG stands for - Royal Ordnance Factory, Radway Green.
# Something to be real antsy about when identifying old ammo in addtion
# to corrosive/erosive is that it's not something made for machine gun
# use, which can happen with both rifle and pistol ammo.
# John Burton (jbu...@itctel.com) wrote:
# : I've acquired some 303 ammo. Would like to know where it comes from, and
# : if it is corrosive. Not sure I want to shoot corrosive ammo in my "new"
# : No. 4 Mk 2. Details on ammunition is noted below.
#
# : 1. In a cardboard box. Box lable sasy 303 inch, Mk 7, ISAA with an
# : arrow betweeen the Mk 7 and ISAA. Case heads have RG 53 7 on them.
#
# : 2. No box. Case heads have SMI 937.
#
# : 3. No box. Case heads have F N 51 on them.
#
# : Any help or information would be appreciated.
#
# : Thanks very much.
#
# : John Burton
#
# --
# Dave Bostock dea...@dc.seflin.org South Florida, USA
# ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
FN 51 Corrosive, I have alot of this in bandoliers & stripper clips.
You might post a Q/A on recommend cleaning w/corrosive.
I heard of a bucket of hot water, place muzzle in and swap up and down.
Following this dry out bore, then proceed to clean as normal with
solvent, then light oil like breakfree CLP.
I HAVE NOT TRIED THIS, I'M LOOKING FOR A RECOMMENDED CLEANING METHOD
MYSELF SINCE I HAVE ABOUT 50 BANDOLIERS OF THIS STUFF.
Jonathan M. Spencer
In article <5mmpns$5...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Nicholas Besley
<empo...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
# Doesn't seem to be machine gun ammo: British/Commonwealth .303, 9mm
#etc always had a suffix 'Z' eg: Mk VII Z - 9mm Mk II Z
# On no account should you use any Mk ? Z in a No 4: the action is not
#the strongest in the world and several have been known to split at
#the receiver. A SMLE will take it, so will a P13 though it's not to
#be recommended.
If memory serves (and I can check my literature if required) the Z was
introduced in 1916 and indicates the cartridge is loaded with nitro
powder rather than black powder.
--Jonathan
============================================================
Jonathan Spencer -- forensic firearms examiner
Mountjoy Research Centre, Durham, England, DH1 3UR
tel: +44 191 386 6107 fax: +44 191 383 0686
============================================================
Nicholas Besley
In message <5mjuse$t...@xring.cs.umd.edu>
"Robert Walter" <wal...@gate.net> writes:
# Mr. Spencer,
# Saw your response re the query on .303 and thought you might be able to
# help me ID some 9mm I got hold of a while back.
# I have four 48 cartridge boxes marked:
# 9 M/M
# Mark IIz
# ^
# I.S.A.A.
# H.3090
# Headstamps are as follows:
# H^N
# 9mm 44
# IIZ
# What I want to know is: Is this normal velocity pistol ammo?
# Corrosive? And last, what does ISAA stand for?
No. It is not standard 9mm parabellum. We usd to use Mk II Z in the
Sten gun and the 44 would signify 1944. Parabellum would not cycle
or, was reputed not to: we never were issued with it. E-mail me if
you want the definitive answer - I don't know it but I do know a
gunsmith who is a civilian armourer for a regiment in the British
Army and he is a specialist.
Tony
# Thanks for your time, Bob.
# Jonathan M. Spencer <j...@salvage.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
# <5mhdlj$l...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
# # In article <5mdduq$d...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, John Burton
# # <jbu...@itctel.com> writes
# #
# # [snip]
# #
# # #1. In a cardboard box. Box lable sasy 303 inch, Mk 7, ISAA with an
# # #arrow betweeen the Mk 7 and ISAA. Case heads have RG 53 7 on them.
# #
# # Military issue, Mark 7, made at Radway Green in 1953. Unlikely to be
# # corrosive.
# --snip--
# # Jonathan Spencer -- forensic firearms examiner
# # Mountjoy Research Centre, Durham, England, DH1 3UR
# # tel: +44 191 386 6107 fax: +44 191 383 0686
#
Nicholas Besley
In message <5ms4qi$e...@xring.cs.umd.edu>
"Jonathan M. Spencer" <j...@salvage.demon.co.uk> writes:
# In article <5mmpns$5...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Nicholas Besley
# <empo...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
# # Doesn't seem to be machine gun ammo: British/Commonwealth .303, 9mm
# #etc always had a suffix 'Z' eg: Mk VII Z - 9mm Mk II Z
# # On no account should you use any Mk ? Z in a No 4: the action is not
# #the strongest in the world and several have been known to split at
# #the receiver. A SMLE will take it, so will a P13 though it's not to
# #be recommended.
# If memory serves (and I can check my literature if required) the Z was
# introduced in 1916 and indicates the cartridge is loaded with nitro
# powder rather than black powder.
# --Jonathan
All the 'Z' cartridges I have reference to seem to be specifically
designed for uses other than in rifles to propel a bullet. Some
explosive rounds were made for use against Zeppelins and aircraft, Mk
VI Z on the headstamp; some tracer rounds were designated 'Z'; Other
rounds containing nitrocellulose were also 'Z'.
Many other .303 rounds were made and designated 'Z' including blank
rounds for launching certain kinds of grenade, one of which contained
ballistite, a combination of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine.
The Grenade H. Mark I and H. Mark I.z came out at the end of WW1 and
they both were uncrimped and contained 30 gr. ballistite. The H. Mark
VII.z contains 35 grains of Bofors powder or 30 grains of NRN.
There was a wierd little one for a time called, in the inimitable
fashion of the British War Department, Blank, short rifle, grenade,
Mark I - which was for launching no. 3 grenades. This was uncrimped
and sealed with beeswax and shellac and contained 35 grains of
cordite and tufts of guncotton at each end.
During WWI the US manufactured .303 for the Allies and these were
all Boxer primed and the propellant was nitrocellulose. None of these
was stamped 'Z'.
When using a Sten gun we were always issued with Mk II Z. We used it
in the Lewis gun but if I remember rightly, it cycled with no trouble
- well, no more than usual! with standard rounds. The Bren used
standard rounds too, and many thousand of those have I enjoyed
firing. We were told that 'Z' should not be used in rifles - pistols
didn't come into it: the only short-case Z I ever saw was 9mm Mk II -
and the standard issue pistol was .38 Webley or .38 Enfield, though
the Royal Navy used a .38 Auto Webley pistol. I don't know when this
was discontinued.
This could go on for weeks! I've been phoning - trying to phone - a
friend of mine who is an armourer with a Regiment quite close to here
but judging from the funnt noises I get his answering machine is
full, out of order or he has a fax connected.
When I contact him I shall come back with the definitive answer
because he is a military historian, gunsmith and registered firearms
dealer as well.
Tony
Larry Bump
Ken Dieter <ke...@chicago.sgi.com> wrote:
#FN 51 Corrosive, I have alot of this in bandoliers & stripper clips.
#You might post a Q/A on recommend cleaning w/corrosive.
#I heard of a bucket of hot water, place muzzle in and swap up and down.
#Following this dry out bore, then proceed to clean as normal with
#solvent, then light oil like breakfree CLP.
#I HAVE NOT TRIED THIS, I'M LOOKING FOR A RECOMMENDED CLEANING METHOD
#MYSELF SINCE I HAVE ABOUT 50 BANDOLIERS OF THIS STUFF.
Well, this is what I have been doing with the 7.62*54R corrosive ammo,
and I haven't had any sign of any corrosion yet. Make sure that the
water is HOT and has a good soap in it. Use a tight patch, and swoosh
it in and out quite a bit. Make sure that the soapy water is flushing
the entire bore and chamber. Scrub scrub.
Then do the same with clean non-soapy water and a clean patch.
Doesn't take long. Couple of minutes, and you're done with the
corrosive cleaning.
Dry patch, let sit while you make a cup of coffee and drink it. Now
it's dry, and ready for the regular cleaning.
If you have flushed and rinsed well, there is no need to do it again
tomorrow. If you used some sort of corrosive solvent without flooding
the bore with water, I would suggest a day two session.
It's not as bad as you think. We have been conditioned all of ur
lives (most of us anyway) to keep the gun dry; but as long as the
water is hot and you keep the wood mostly dry it is not a problem.
Just remember to re-oil all surfaces.
If it sounds like too much trouble, I will take the .303 off of your
hands and dispose of it properly, at absolutely no charge to you.
Just let me know, and I'll even pay the shipping.
;-)
Larry
Jonathan M. Spencer
I'm not sure if the attributions are still corect, but ...
In article <5mmpns$5...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Nicholas Besley
<empo...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
#In message <5mfall$g...@xring.cs.umd.edu>
# dea...@dc.seflin.org (Dave Bostock) writes:
# Doesn't seem to be machine gun ammo: British/Commonwealth .303, 9mm
#etc always had a suffix 'Z' eg: Mk VII Z - 9mm Mk II Z
According to _Jane's Ammunition_, the current British 9mm cartridge is
Mk 2z [sic].
# On no account should you use any Mk ? Z in a No 4: the action is not
#the strongest in the world and several have been known to split at
#the receiver.
What, they split *because* 'Z' ammo was used in them? Where's the
evidence of this, reference to the relevant technical reports please?
# The 'Broad Arrow' on the first box indicates that it was once the
#property of HM Government. I would GUESS that ISAA is a batch code
#though there is a wee suspicion that it might stand for something
#like Incendiary Sabot Anti Aircraft or something similar.
What on earth sort of incendiary sabot might you fire out of a 303 at
aircraft? It'd be _tiny_. How much incendiary material could it carry,
and what would it's ballistics be like?
Personally, I guess that ISAA stands for "Is a Speaking Arse Anagram".
#If you have a ballistic round dismantler,
^^^^^^^^^
Oh, a _gun_ you mean?
# The propellant is most likely to be cordite.
Nope, the 'Z' indicates that it is _not_ cordite but nitrocellulose
propellant. (I was wrong in my earlier post wrt black powder, it was
_cordite_ that got replaced in 1916.)
--Jonathan
============================================================
Jonathan Spencer -- forensic firearms examiner
Mountjoy Research Centre, Durham, England, DH1 3UR
tel: +44 191 386 6107 fax: +44 191 383 0686
============================================================
Nicholas Besley
In message <5n80k8$b...@xring.cs.umd.edu>
"Jonathan M. Spencer" <j...@salvage.demon.co.uk> writes:
# I'm not sure if the attributions are still corect, but ...
# In article <5mmpns$5...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Nicholas Besley
# <empo...@zetnet.co.uk> writes
# #In message <5mfall$g...@xring.cs.umd.edu>
# # dea...@dc.seflin.org (Dave Bostock) writes:
# # Doesn't seem to be machine gun ammo: British/Commonwealth .303, 9mm
# #etc always had a suffix 'Z' eg: Mk VII Z - 9mm Mk II Z
# According to _Jane's Ammunition_, the current British 9mm cartridge is
# Mk 2z [sic].
And having fired thousands of rounds through Sten guns I can tell
you that we were only issued 2 Z
# # On no account should you use any Mk ? Z in a No 4: the action is not
# #the strongest in the world and several have been known to split at
# #the receiver.
Read what I said. I didn't say that Z split the receivers, I said
that as the receivers on No. 4s were not the strongest in the world -
and some of them are absolute crap metal, while because of the
machining tolerances permitted during wartime (especially)
manufacture because of the unavailaility of skilled labour, many of
the barrels were so loose as to be not much more than hand-tight
whereas others had to be wrenched so tight that receivers and threads
were damaged. - Mk VII Z should not be used.
# What, they split *because* 'Z' ammo was used in them? Where's the
# evidence of this, reference to the relevant technical reports please?
# # The 'Broad Arrow' on the first box indicates that it was once the
# #property of HM Government. I would GUESS that ISAA is a batch code
# #though there is a wee suspicion that it might stand for something
# #like Incendiary Sabot Anti Aircraft or something similar.
# What on earth sort of incendiary sabot might you fire out of a 303 at
# aircraft? It'd be _tiny_. How much incendiary material could it carry,
# and what would it's ballistics be like?
What one manufacturer calls a 'sabot' and another does isn't always
the same thing. You will note that I had a WEE suspicion that it
might stand for SOMETHING LIKE ** or SOMETHING SIMILAR. In fact I
said that I thought it was probably a batch code.
# Personally, I guess that ISAA stands for "Is a Speaking Arse Anagram".
Just about your level I should think, from the tone of the rest of your mail.
# #If you have a ballistic round dismantler,
# ^^^^^^^^^
And your level of knowledge. That's how mine is described on its box.
You may not have seen one. You place the round in the colletts and
place it bullet down in the hollow head. Screw on the retaining cap
and strike the ballistic dismantler on a hard surface. The kinetic
energy contained in the bullet is usually enough to 'pull' it. It was
made in the States, perhaps that's why you haven't seen one.
Since the Firearms Amendment Act following the Hungerford tragedy
this may only be done by a r.f.d.
# Oh, a _gun_ you mean?
# # The propellant is most likely to be cordite.
Where did I say that with reference to Z?
# Nope, the 'Z' indicates that it is _not_ cordite but nitrocellulose
# propellant. (I was wrong in my earlier post wrt black powder, it was
# _cordite_ that got replaced in 1916.)
Nope. It might indicate that it is not cordite but it does not say
that it is nitrocellulose. To my knowledge it could also be Bofors or
ballistite as well as nitrocellulose.
All the US loaded .303 ammunition during WW1 was loaded with
nitrocellulose and none of it was designated Z. THIS WAS BECAUSE IT
WAS FOR USE IN STANDARD ISSUE RIFLES.
# --Jonathan
# ============================================================
# Jonathan Spencer -- forensic firearms examiner
# Mountjoy Research Centre, Durham, England, DH1 3UR
# tel: +44 191 386 6107 fax: +44 191 383 0686
# ============================================================
Tony - who has been firing the stuff since 1955.