Justifiable homicide
dickr2
operated a small store. He was in the back room when a
bad guy entered the store, held a knife to the wife's
throat, and demanded money from the cash register.
My friend grabbed a Ruger .44 carbine and blew the bad guy
away. Yes it was justifiable, but my friend had nightmares
for years because he had killed someone. Was the deceased
a "bad guy" or a desperate family man? He never knew.
Dick
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DougC
# I had a friend who, along with his pregnant wife, had
# operated a small store. He was in the back room when a
# bad guy entered the store, held a knife to the wife's
# throat, and demanded money from the cash register.
# My friend grabbed a Ruger .44 carbine and blew the bad guy
# away. Yes it was justifiable, but my friend had nightmares
# for years because he had killed someone. Was the deceased
# a "bad guy" or a desperate family man? He never knew.
Did you notice that his eyes changed to "the thousand yard stare?"
That is common among policemen and soldiers who kill .
Doug Chandler
Bob Roberts
wrote:
#I had a friend who, along with his pregnant wife, had
#operated a small store. He was in the back room when a
#bad guy entered the store, held a knife to the wife's
#throat, and demanded money from the cash register.
#My friend grabbed a Ruger .44 carbine and blew the bad guy
#away. Yes it was justifiable, but my friend had nightmares
#for years because he had killed someone. Was the deceased
#a "bad guy" or a desperate family man? He never knew.
For your question to be valid one must allow desperation to be a valid
reason to threaten the life of another. And if that is something that
you recognize you should also apply that rule for desperation to the
husband of the woman that was in mortal danger. If you carry that far
it is obvious that the husband was not only right in shooting the
assailant but was required to defend his wife as he did. His immediate
sense of desperation far out weighs the assailant's desperation over
his inability to care for his own family.
In short: the husband did the world a favor by removing a scumbag from
the world, he should feel proud of being able to take such action and
content in the fact that he carried it out perfectly.
Tim Douglass
That may all be true, but he also needs to recognize that he is
suffering from PTSD as a result and seek treatment. Just because a
killing is justified doesn't mean it isn't traumatic - in fact, if it
isn't traumatic that is superficial evidence that the person doing the
killing is a sociopath and probably has some significant issues.
Killing another human being should *never* be taken lightly. Those who
talk about "exterminating vermin" and the like are trading a part of
their humanity for a bit of mental armor that they hope will help them
avoid the stress of taking another life.
OK, off soapbox.
Tim Douglass
Jim Yanik
# I had a friend who, along with his pregnant wife, had
# operated a small store. He was in the back room when a
# bad guy entered the store, held a knife to the wife's
# throat, and demanded money from the cash register.
# My friend grabbed a Ruger .44 carbine and blew the bad guy
# away. Yes it was justifiable, but my friend had nightmares
# for years because he had killed someone. Was the deceased
# a "bad guy" or a desperate family man? He never knew.
#
# Dick
It doesn't matter if he was "a desperate family man",he threatened deadly
violence to another person.
That makes him a "bad guy".
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Tom S.
# I had a friend who, along with his pregnant wife, had
# operated a small store. He was in the back room when a
# bad guy entered the store, held a knife to the wife's
# throat, and demanded money from the cash register.
# My friend grabbed a Ruger .44 carbine and blew the bad guy
# away. Yes it was justifiable, but my friend had nightmares
# for years because he had killed someone. Was the deceased
# a "bad guy" or a desperate family man? He never knew.
Desperate family men don't rob store and threaten people. Much more
typically, they take the dirty, grungy jobs that no one else will.
Outside of Hollywood, you'd be hard pressed to find even a single story,
across decades of reports, of someone who committed armed robbery to
support their family.
Tom S.
# That may all be true, but he also needs to recognize that he is
# suffering from PTSD as a result and seek treatment. Just because a
# killing is justified doesn't mean it isn't traumatic - in fact, if it
# isn't traumatic that is superficial evidence that the person doing the
# killing is a sociopath and probably has some significant issues.
#
# Killing another human being should *never* be taken lightly. Those who
# talk about "exterminating vermin" and the like are trading a part of
# their humanity for a bit of mental armor that they hope will help them
# avoid the stress of taking another life.
#
# OK, off soapbox.
#
Well, you've already made your decision and your agenda so why bother
these people here.
Mark
# I had a friend who, along with his pregnant wife, had
# operated a small store. He was in the back room when a
# bad guy entered the store, held a knife to the wife's
# throat, and demanded money from the cash register.
# My friend grabbed a Ruger .44 carbine and blew the bad guy
# away. Yes it was justifiable, but my friend had nightmares
# for years because he had killed someone. Was the deceased
# a "bad guy" or a desperate family man? He never knew.
#
If you don't believe you can live with killing then it's best to avoid
it. Many people don't have a clue because they've never been in the
service, and not everyone in the service has that experience.
Some people know how they will respond, but to have nightmares means
that he may falter the next time, which could be more danger for himself
or his wife - he should seek real, not liberal, counseling so that he
can put it fully behind himself.
You last question is misleading, it doesn't matter if he was a "Family"
man, he was a violent offender that chose to risk his own life for
money, proving that he didn't believe his own life was worth what he was
trying to take.
The good news is that you friend put an end to what could have been a
long run of violence that could have ended with innocent people being
killed.
--
You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little
voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.
Trust yourself.
spam9...@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)
Long Ranger
Your friend thinks way too far into such things. The bad guy / good guy
turmoil has to be strictly emotional. The bare facts of your story should be
enough to assuage his feelings based on logic. If he can't put his emotions
to bed based on such logic, then that is the problem, not that he killed
someone.
Herbert Cannon
assailant cut his wife's throat.
Argent
> ...
It does not matter what the criminals motivation was, he forfeited our
sympathies when he decided to rob someone else, particularly using the
threat of deadly force.
Unfortunately your friend's angst is all too common in our urbanized
society. Few urban dwellers hunt, farm, ranch, or fish, so they
almost never see blood or death (except in a hospital). In addition
the media and reinforces the "I killed someone so I must feel
traumatized". So when these urbanites do the necessary thing and kill
someone in self defense, they feel traumatized.
And not feeling bad about a necessary killing in self defense (or
protecting your loved ones) does not mean you have problems. A
sociopath doesn't feel bad about hurting or killing anyone. There is
a significant difference.
Gunny_2008
"dickr2" <dic...@frontier.com> wrote in message
news:hbkulr$mr0$1...@news.albasani.net...
# I had a friend who, along with his pregnant wife, had
# operated a small store. He was in the back room when a
# bad guy entered the store, held a knife to the wife's
# throat, and demanded money from the cash register.
# My friend grabbed a Ruger .44 carbine and blew the bad guy
# away. Yes it was justifiable, but my friend had nightmares
# for years because he had killed someone. Was the deceased
# a "bad guy" or a desperate family man? He never knew.
#
# Dick
I keep seeing statements about how this was a justifiable use of force.
That is not the point. The point is, and we teach this in our CCW classes,
that it is a very emotionally disturbing act for a NORMAL person to kill
another human being, whether or not he legally deserved it. PTSD is very
common for shooters, be they military or civilian. If you or a close one
has actually killed another person, don't be reluctant to visit a counselor.
There is no shame involved. That is why the military and police provide
these services for their people. As was pointed out by another poster, the
person that is abnormal is the one who can kill and NOT have it affect him
in any way. A counselor can help you work out the emotional stress to the
point that you can live with it and, perhaps more importantly, not let it
prevent you from responding correctly again in the future.
Larry Kroger
# operated a small store. He was in the back room when a
# bad guy entered the store, held a knife to the wife's
# throat, and demanded money from the cash register.
# My friend grabbed a Ruger .44 carbine and blew the bad guy
# away. Yes it was justifiable, but my friend had nightmares
# for years because he had killed someone. Was the deceased
# a "bad guy" or a desperate family man? He never knew.
This is a sort of stock question with stock answers. Is it a serious query,
or more likely just a ploy to generate some activity? Anyway, here's my
comment.
Notice that there's an implicit assumption of elite superiority in these
scenarios. That is, the assailant is regarded as a low-level automaton, who
is presumed to have his reasons and excuses. The person who responds,
however, is not allowed that leeway. He is assumed to be fully responsible
for his actions.
I reject those assumptions. I figure we're all troubled people, each in our
own way straining under our baggage. So the bottom line question is: Do we
shoulder our responsibilities or do we not? If we assert our claim to human
rights, then we're obligated to bear the burden of human responsibilities.
Ultraclassic
> ...
Yes. the facts described where the man's wife was in iminent danger is
a classic case for justifiable homicide. Killing under such
circumstances, is not only justifiable, it's required. I would
probably feel bad for a day or two and then I would consider that I
had saved a life from a criminal. It's not even a close call.
Had he pumped another round or two into the miscreant's forehead after
the event was over, well that's another story. The DA wouldn't take
kindly to that.
William Earl Haskell
# I keep seeing statements about how this was a justifiable use of force.
# That is not the point. The point is, and we teach this in our CCW classes,
# that it is a very emotionally disturbing act for a NORMAL person to kill
# another human being, whether or not he legally deserved it.
But what about people who aren't "normal"?
Just askin'.
Gray Ghost
news:hcmjl2$suo$1...@news.albasani.net:
# Gunny_2008 wrote:
#
# # I keep seeing statements about how this was a justifiable use of force.
# # That is not the point. The point is, and we teach this in our CCW
# classes, # that it is a very emotionally disturbing act for a NORMAL
# person to kill # another human being, whether or not he legally deserved
# it.
#
# But what about people who aren't "normal"?
#
# Just askin'.
I consider myself "normal". However a long time ago when I started owning
firearms I had to make a decision. Could I, would I be willing to kill in
self defense?
Over the years my feelings on this have solidified and hardened. Having
observed the depravity of the lawless, the disregard for human life, human
dignity and the suffering of the survivors I came to a conclusion.
If I do find myself in such a situation I am not going to lose a bit of sleep
over it. The person who I have to kill will have chosen his own path. I did
not go looking for them. I may be the agent of thier extinction but I am not
the reason for it. Thier own actions are what brought them to thier end.
Frankly the death of a criminal is not a tragedy, it is thier own damn fault.
Misifus
who have had to kill or be killed and felt no remorse. On the other
hand, there was a game warden in California who had to have therapy
after killing a mountain lion which had killed a woman. Different folks.
-Raf
Long Ranger
Even the children in my family would tell this clown to "man up". I wonder
if he had any feelings for the woman that died? How does someone like this
get to be a warden? Can you imagine him checking your deer tag, and breaking
down, maybe getting on his knees and hugging your legs and pleading for you
to let the poor animals alone? WTF?
Ed
# There seem to be a variety of reactions to this situation. I know men
# who have had to kill or be killed and felt no remorse. On the other
# hand, there was a game warden in California who had to have therapy
# after killing a mountain lion which had killed a woman. Different folks.
Different situation, totally, too. The mountain lion was only acting
naturally.... human beings should be beyond instinct in their behaviour.
Thus I can sympathize with that warden.
But I agree with another poster to this thread.... over the years I,
too, have become somewhat "hardened" to the depravity I see all around me
and I do believe I would be minimally effected if forced to kill to defend
myself or family.
Ed in Oregon
.
Gunny_2008
I second that point of view. I expect a lot may depend on what you've
experienced in your life already, i.e. a sheltered silver spoon life vs one
where you've seen that there really are evil people out there.
Misifus
# Even the children in my family would tell this clown to "man up". I wonder
# if he had any feelings for the woman that died? How does someone like this
# get to be a warden? Can you imagine him checking your deer tag, and breaking
# down, maybe getting on his knees and hugging your legs and pleading for you
# to let the poor animals alone? WTF?
#
"Man up" is unlikely, the game warden in question was a woman. However,
I agree that her concern was misplaced.
-Raf
Gray Ghost
@news.albasani.net:
#
#
# I second that point of view. I expect a lot may depend on what you've
# experienced in your life already, i.e. a sheltered silver spoon life vs one
# where you've seen that there really are evil people out there.
That was me. it just seems to me that some skel would gut me and leave me for
dead for the $5 in my pocket or rape and murder my 6 yo girl for the hell of
it irrespective of the pain inflicted on the victims or the families and
loved ones of the victims.
One does not agonize over the cancer cells removed from one's body. These
bastards are little more than a cancer on society. I would feel no more
remorse over killing one of these bastards than I would going all out to save
myself or my daughter from a potentially fatal or crippling medical
condition. Or the predator that takes an occasional duck or chicken. Actually
I might feel a little for the predator, he's just doing what he's programmed
to do.
Trying to hurt my little girl is the fastest way I can think of to find out
for yuorself if there is a God.
Lose sleep over it? Not likely.
I have read some of Cooper's work. He laid it out for me. You will be in the
most extreme struggle of your life, your very existence is on the line. When
you prevail you will feel euphoric, not for having killed by for having
survived intact. Don't feel guilty about it, it's part of the survival
mechanism. The reason it screws with people is they can't cope with thier
real humanity.
I'm no tough guy, military wouldn't have me 'cuz of my eyes and I generally
try to avoid confrontations. But my life is noone else's to take.
Frank
Tom S.
# There seem to be a variety of reactions to this situation. I know men
# who have had to kill or be killed and felt no remorse. On the other
# hand, there was a game warden in California who had to have therapy
# after killing a mountain lion which had killed a woman. Different folks.
I remember that one.
The lion left two orphan kits and people raised about $250K to care for them
The woman killed left two orphans (3 and 6 IIRC) as well; the fund
raiser for her orphans raised about $10K.
So WHO is *normal*?
Tom S.
# I second that point of view. I expect a lot may depend on what you've
# experienced in your life already, i.e. a sheltered silver spoon life vs one
# where you've seen that there really are evil people out there.
EXACTLY!!! :-(