Bolt Action Rifle to Bolt Action Pistol - Legal ?
Brett Saunders
Hi:
I was thinking about building a .308 bolt action pistol for silhouette
shooting. Can I convert something like a Remington 600 or 700 barrelled action
into a XP-100 type repeater legally ? If so, has anyone on this list done this
?
Also - Once when I was at the range, I saw a guy shooting a single shot pistol
with a weird bolt that was pulled directly backward from the breech and
rotated to insert and remove the shell. It appeared to be commercially
manufactured, but I have not seen anything like it, before or since.
Does anyone know what this is ?
B.
The Hanned Line
In article <4odu51$a...@xring.cs.umd.edu> inq...@shadow.net (Brett Saunders) writes:
#From: inq...@shadow.net (Brett Saunders)
#Subject: Bolt Action Rifle to Bolt Action Pistol - Legal ?
#Date: 28 May 1996 00:06:57 -0400
#Hi:
#I was thinking about building a .308 bolt action pistol for silhouette
#shooting. Can I convert something like a Remington 600 or 700 barrelled action
#into a XP-100 type repeater legally ? If so, has anyone on this list done this
#?
#Also - Once when I was at the range, I saw a guy shooting a single shot pistol
#with a weird bolt that was pulled directly backward from the breech and
#rotated to insert and remove the shell. It appeared to be commercially
#manufactured, but I have not seen anything like it, before or since.
#Does anyone know what this is ?
#B.
I understand Federal Law (maybe the Gun Contol Act of 1968) prohibits this
but allows the reverse by ommission, i.e. converting a bolt action pistol
into rifle. As I remember the XP-100 action became the Remington 600
rifle...
Dennis A. Smith
Joe Kultgen
In article <4odu51$a...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, inq...@shadow.net (Brett Saunders) wrote:
#
#Hi:
#
#I was thinking about building a .308 bolt action pistol for silhouette
#shooting. Can I convert something like a Remington 600 or 700 barrelled action
#into a XP-100 type repeater legally ? If so, has anyone on this list done this
The BATF is kind of flaky on this issue. (Everything else they do makes
perfect sense,right?)
My understanding of the law is that if a newly manufactured action has never
had a barrel installed, it can become either a rifle or pistol depending on
what barrel is mated to it. Removing an action from a rifle and installing it
in a pistol is legally the same as cutting a rifle barrel shorter than the
limit. Doing it legally requires some heavy paperwork, but to the best of my
knowledge it falls under the "any other weapon" catagory of the NFA, and the
tax isn't too bad.
Later,
Joe
Doug Owen
The Hanned Line (was...@best.com) wrote:
: In article <4odu51$a...@xring.cs.umd.edu> inq...@shadow.net (Brett Saunders) writes:
: #From: inq...@shadow.net (Brett Saunders)
: #Subject: Bolt Action Rifle to Bolt Action Pistol - Legal ?
: #Date: 28 May 1996 00:06:57 -0400
: I understand Federal Law (maybe the Gun Contol Act of 1968) prohibits this
: but allows the reverse by ommission, i.e. converting a bolt action pistol
: into rifle. As I remember the XP-100 action became the Remington 600
: rifle...
This is true, the moment you put the short barrel on yer busted, a "sawed
off rifle", despite the change of stocks. This is fine if the action has
*never* been barreled. I suspect adding a stock to an existint XP-100 is
also a bust, you can't do that to a pistol, right?
Doug Owen
Lou Boyd
inq...@shadow.net (Brett Saunders) wrote:
#
#Hi:
#
#I was thinking about building a .308 bolt action pistol for silhouette
#shooting. Can I convert something like a Remington 600 or 700 barrelled action
#into a XP-100 type repeater legally ? If so, has anyone on this list done this
There was an article in the NRA magazine a few months ago on exactly this
subject. They stated that it's illegal IF the specific receiver (ie serial
number) was ever actually used in a rifle. If you purchase the same action new
and build your own pistol it's ok. They stated that it's a good idea to get a
written statement from the manufacturer that it was never in a rifle. Note that
manufacturers record the rifles they manufacture and the serial numbers of the
receivers. If the feds check the serial number on your pistol and it comes up
"rifle" you're in trouble. There didn't appear to be a practical legal way to
get around this. The article also stated that Remington doesn't normally sell
separate receivers. Sako and other manufactures do. The Remington custom shop
did make a repeater model of the XP-100 which, I believe, used exactly the same
receiver as the 600. One of my benchrest RIFLES is an XP-100. That direction
is ok.
Bob Clevenger
was...@best.com (The Hanned Line) wrote:
#In article <4odu51$a...@xring.cs.umd.edu> inq...@shadow.net (Brett Saunders) writes:
##From: inq...@shadow.net (Brett Saunders)
##Subject: Bolt Action Rifle to Bolt Action Pistol - Legal ?
##Date: 28 May 1996 00:06:57 -0400
#
#
##Hi:
#
##I was thinking about building a .308 bolt action pistol for silhouette
##shooting. Can I convert something like a Remington 600 or 700 barrelled action
##into a XP-100 type repeater legally ? If so, has anyone on this list done this
##?
#
##Also - Once when I was at the range, I saw a guy shooting a single shot pistol
##with a weird bolt that was pulled directly backward from the breech and
##rotated to insert and remove the shell. It appeared to be commercially
##manufactured, but I have not seen anything like it, before or since.
##Does anyone know what this is ?
#
##B.
#
#I understand Federal Law (maybe the Gun Contol Act of 1968) prohibits this
#but allows the reverse by ommission, i.e. converting a bolt action pistol
#into rifle. As I remember the XP-100 action became the Remington 600
#rifle...
Actually, the law in question is tha NFA of 1934.
If an action is assembled with a barrel longer than 16", it is a rifle
from then on. If you then replace the barrel with a shorter one (or
just cut off the existing barrel) you have then made what the ATF
calls a "short barrelled rifle" which is subject to the same Federal
regulations as a machine gun.
OTOH, if that action is purchased new without a barrel ever having
been installed on it, you may make a pistol from it without all the
"short barrelled rifle" nonsense.
-=Bob=- in Ontario, Calif.
NRA, CRPA, SCA, IOOF, N6MLV
Freedom means letting other people do things you don't like.
Jim Herring
Brett Saunders wrote:
#
# Hi:
#
# I was thinking about building a .308 bolt action pistol for silhouette
# shooting. Can I convert something like a Remington 600 or 700 barrelled action
# into a XP-100 type repeater legally ? If so, has anyone on this list done this
# ?
#
# Also - Once when I was at the range, I saw a guy shooting a single shot pistol
# with a weird bolt that was pulled directly backward from the breech and
# rotated to insert and remove the shell. It appeared to be commercially
# manufactured, but I have not seen anything like it, before or since.
# Does anyone know what this is ?
#
# B.
See if you can order the action from Remington. If it was never sold with
a rifle barrel installed, I believe you would be legal.
Good shooting
Jim
TSBench
<<<I understand Federal Law (maybe the Gun Contol Act of 1968) prohibits
this>>
In June, we had a spokesperson from Remington on the radio program when he
mentioned that Remington was discontinuing the XP100. I mentioned that
this should create an entire cottage industry of gunsmiths specializing in
turning Remington receivers into XP100s. He replied that since Remington
will not supply non-barreled actions, this wasn't an option.
I understand that the XP100 is back, but as a custom shop item.
Regards,
TSBench
Louis J Boyd
b...@deltanet.com (Bob Clevenger) wrote:
#If an action is assembled with a barrel longer than 16", it is a rifle
#from then on. If you then replace the barrel with a shorter one (or
#just cut off the existing barrel) you have then made what the ATF
#calls a "short barrelled rifle" which is subject to the same Federal
#regulations as a machine gun.
I don't believe that's true. Take,for example, the T/C Contender. If you buy
the action as a pistol (the manufacturer registered the SN as a pistol) you
are free to use either a carbine stock with a barrel longer than 16" or a
pistol stock with any lenght barrel. You can go back and forth legally.
Gale Barrows
was...@best.com (The Hanned Line) wrote:
#In article <4odu51$a...@xring.cs.umd.edu> inq...@shadow.net (Brett Saunders) writes:
##From: inq...@shadow.net (Brett Saunders)
##Subject: Bolt Action Rifle to Bolt Action Pistol - Legal ?
##Date: 28 May 1996 00:06:57 -0400
##Hi:
##I was thinking about building a .308 bolt action pistol for silhouette
##shooting. Can I convert something like a Remington 600 or 700 barrelled action
##into a XP-100 type repeater legally ? If so, has anyone on this list done this
##?
##Also - Once when I was at the range, I saw a guy shooting a single shot pistol
##with a weird bolt that was pulled directly backward from the breech and
##rotated to insert and remove the shell. It appeared to be commercially
##manufactured, but I have not seen anything like it, before or since.
##Does anyone know what this is ?
##B.
#I understand Federal Law (maybe the Gun Contol Act of 1968) prohibits this
#but allows the reverse by ommission, i.e. converting a bolt action pistol
#into rifle. As I remember the XP-100 action became the Remington 600
#rifle...
#Dennis A. Smith
A year or so ago, I got a flyer from BATF stating that this was legal
*****IF************** the action used had never had a riflle length
barrel or rifle stock on it while in yopur possession including at the
time you purchased it. according to them, it would be legal if you
started with a bare action. Just have the dealer strip the rifle down
to the action before you fill out the paperwork and list th action as
a bare action on the paperwork.
Gale Barrows
jkul...@excel.net (Joe Kultgen) wrote:
#In article <4odu51$a...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, inq...@shadow.net (Brett Saunders) wrote:
##
##Hi:
##
##I was thinking about building a .308 bolt action pistol for silhouette
##shooting. Can I convert something like a Remington 600 or 700 barrelled action
##into a XP-100 type repeater legally ? If so, has anyone on this list done this
#The BATF is kind of flaky on this issue. (Everything else they do makes
#perfect sense,right?)
#My understanding of the law is that if a newly manufactured action has never
#had a barrel installed, it can become either a rifle or pistol depending on
#what barrel is mated to it. Removing an action from a rifle and installing it
#in a pistol is legally the same as cutting a rifle barrel shorter than the
#limit. Doing it legally requires some heavy paperwork, but to the best of my
#knowledge it falls under the "any other weapon" catagory of the NFA, and the
#tax isn't too bad.
#Later,
#Joe
A flyer I got from BATF a year or so back said that if the action was
not assembled into a rifle (had no rifler barrel or stock) while the
owner or person doing the conversion had possession of the action, the
action could legaly be built into a pistol. To protect yourself, buy
where a yellow form is required and be sure to have the seller
describe the action as an action rather than a complete rifle.
Daniel Morris DeRight
Excerpts from netnews.rec.guns: 30-May-96 Re: Bolt Action Rifle to Bo..
by Louis J Bo...@news.ccit.a
# b...@deltanet.com (Bob Clevenger) wrote:
#
# #If an action is assembled with a barrel longer than 16", it is a rifle
# #from then on. If you then replace the barrel with a shorter one (or
# #just cut off the existing barrel) you have then made what the ATF
# #calls a "short barrelled rifle" which is subject to the same Federal
# #regulations as a machine gun.
#
# I don't believe that's true. Take,for example, the T/C Contender. If you buy
# the action as a pistol (the manufacturer registered the SN as a pistol) you
# are free to use either a carbine stock with a barrel longer than 16" or a
# pistol stock with any lenght barrel. You can go back and forth legally.
It is true, and you are referring to exactly the opposite action
that he is. He was talking about cutting down a rifle, you are talking
about lengthening a pistol. If you buy the T/C as a carbine, you cannot
use pistol length barrels on it. If you buy it as a pistol, you can go
to the less regulated carbine form anytime you like, as long as you use
a barrel of 16" or more when you stock it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
soda...@cmu.edu
Live long and prosper, but always bring coffee with you.
-Tim Russ
R. Pierce Reid
This is correct... if you buy an *un*barreled action and go
through Brady and fill out the yellow-sheet as a *pistol* and you
can build it that way. I would get this in writing from them
before you start, though and keep the letter.
Sako, Remington and a number of other companies sell
actions-only.
Hope this helps,
R.P. Reid
--
My opinions are my own, unless someone is paying me to say
otherwise.
Cheers...
Joe Kultgen
In article <4ok9d3$p...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Louis J Boyd <bo...@news.ccit.arizona.edu> wrote:
#b...@deltanet.com (Bob Clevenger) wrote:
#
##If an action is assembled with a barrel longer than 16", it is a rifle
##from then on. If you then replace the barrel with a shorter one (or
##just cut off the existing barrel) you have then made what the ATF
##calls a "short barrelled rifle" which is subject to the same Federal
##regulations as a machine gun.
#the action as a pistol (the manufacturer registered the SN as a pistol) you
#are free to use either a carbine stock with a barrel longer than 16" or a
#pistol stock with any lenght barrel. You can go back and forth legally.
#
I believe this is a specific exemption to a general rule. Similar to the
rules regarding shoulder stocks on certain pistols, (Hi Power, Luger, etc).
The ATF has never been widely acclaimed for being consistent. :-)
Also, unless they've changed their minds again, the short barreled rifles (or
shotguns) fall under the NFA class "any other weapon". If this is the case,
the tranfer tax is almost a token payment, ($5.00 ?). The paperwork involved
is as heavy as if buying a machine gun, and getting permission to cut one down
involves becoming a licensed manufacturer.
In the long run, the most cost effective solution is the purchase of a brand
new action, and installing a pistol length barrel.
PS I'm not a lawyer, don't even play one on TV. When dealing with a legal
grey area that could cost you years in a federal prison, you'd be smart to
seek *competent* legal advice.
Later,
Joe
Robin D. Roberts
Onceupon a time, in a land far way, jkul...@excel.net (Joe Kultgen)
wrote:
#In article <4ok9d3$p...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Louis J Boyd <bo...@news.ccit.arizona.edu> wrote:
##b...@deltanet.com (Bob Clevenger) wrote:
##
###If an action is assembled with a barrel longer than 16", it is a rifle
###from then on. If you then replace the barrel with a shorter one (or
###just cut off the existing barrel) you have then made what the ATF
###calls a "short barrelled rifle" which is subject to the same Federal
###regulations as a machine gun.
##I don't believe that's true. Take,for example, the T/C Contender. If you buy
##the action as a pistol (the manufacturer registered the SN as a pistol) you
##are free to use either a carbine stock with a barrel longer than 16" or a
##pistol stock with any lenght barrel. You can go back and forth legally.
##
#I believe this is a specific exemption to a general rule. Similar to the
#rules regarding shoulder stocks on certain pistols, (Hi Power, Luger, etc).
#The ATF has never been widely acclaimed for being consistent. :-)
Well for one thing, there is a Supreme Court opinion on
Thompson/Contenders. See the letter from Stephen Holbrook on page 4
of the April '96 American Rifleman.
This is an area where the BATF will be happy to make you a test case
for their next attempt to have their way.
Robin Roberts
sci...@ix.netcom.com Robin Roberts Ventura County, CA --- DVC
"A church is not the less sacred because curs frequently lift up their leg
against it, and affront the wall: It is the nature of dogs." Cato's Letters.
==PGP 2.6 key on request - and if Freeh doesn't like it, he can kiss mine==
abraden
##from then on. If you then replace the barrel with a shorter one (or
##just cut off the existing barrel) you have then made what the ATF
##calls a "short barrelled rifle" which is subject to the same Federal
The above is true. To make a bolt action pistol the action must have never been assembled as a
rifle. When I was shooting with IHSMA this question always came up.
In the case of the T/C carbine this went to the U.S. Supreme court. At first the BATF said it was
O.K. then they changed their minds. T/C challenged in court and the Supreme court ruled in their
favor. The difference is the T/C was already a pistol and you are changing it to a carbine. This
is not illegal. The question now becomes when it is a carbine and you change it back to a pistol
BATF claimed it was illegal as it was the same as sawing off the barrel. Also they tried to
equate have the pieces to do so was also illegal same as owning an auto-sear.
The court did not see it that way and ruled in favor of T/C, I think 5 to 4
By the way one U.S.Supreme court judge that voted against T/C had this to say about his vote. He
agreed that the law did not cover this but voted against it anyway because he did not like guns!!
How about that for being impartial..
Kelly McMillan
Bob Clevenger wrote:
#
# #In article <4odu51$a...@xring.cs.umd.edu> inq...@shadow.net (Brett Saunders) writes:
# ##From: inq...@shadow.net (Brett Saunders)
# ##Subject: Bolt Action Rifle to Bolt Action Pistol - Legal ?
# ##Date: 28 May 1996 00:06:57 -0400
# #
# #
# ##Hi:
# #
# ##I was thinking about building a .308 bolt action pistol for silhouette
# ##shooting. Can I convert something like a Remington 600 or 700 barrelled action
# ##into a XP-100 type repeater legally ? If so, has anyone on this list done this
# ##?
# #
# ##Also - Once when I was at the range, I saw a guy shooting a single shot pistol
# ##with a weird bolt that was pulled directly backward from the breech and
# ##rotated to insert and remove the shell. It appeared to be commercially
# ##manufactured, but I have not seen anything like it, before or since.
# ##Does anyone know what this is ?
# #
# ##B.
# #
# #I understand Federal Law (maybe the Gun Contol Act of 1968) prohibits this
# #but allows the reverse by ommission, i.e. converting a bolt action pistol
# #into rifle. As I remember the XP-100 action became the Remington 600
# #rifle...
#
# Actually, the law in question is tha NFA of 1934.
#
# If an action is assembled with a barrel longer than 16", it is a rifle
# from then on. If you then replace the barrel with a shorter one (or
# just cut off the existing barrel) you have then made what the ATF
# calls a "short barrelled rifle" which is subject to the same Federal
# regulations as a machine gun.
#
# OTOH, if that action is purchased new without a barrel ever having
# been installed on it, you may make a pistol from it without all the
# "short barrelled rifle" nonsense.
#
# -=Bob=- in Ontario, Calif.
# NRA, CRPA, SCA, IOOF, N6MLV
#
# Freedom means letting other people do things you don't like.
Several years ago in an attempt to come up with an item to grab peoples
attention at the SHOT Show in Las Vegas we made a "Pifle."
We took a Model 7 repeater in .243 and shortened the barrel to 17". We
installed that barreled action in one of our rear grip x-p 100 pistol
stocks which allowed us to use the mag box. The barrel length was a
legal rifle length, but what kept it from being labeled by the ATF as a
pistol was the fact that the over-all length was 27". A rifles over-all
length can not be less thatn 27" (I'm pretty sure it's 27 and not 26).
Now I know most of you are saying it must have been muzzle heavy and it
was but we cured that by attaching a sling to the rear of the stock.
With the sling around your shoulder on your shooting hand side, you
could push forward against the sling which would stabalize the gun
unbelievably.
Tim McCormack who at the time was the manager of Remingtons custom shop
spent quite a bit of time in our booth that year. Can you guess what
"new" item Remington was offering at the SHOT Show the following year?
Yep, that's right. The XP 100 Repeater (using a Model 7 action and a
McMillan Stock). Of course they had an advantage that we didn't have.
They could put a shorter barrel on it and call it a pistol.
We were happy to have been a part of this new product. We sold many
stocks to them before they discontinues all of the xp 100 lines.
Kelly McMillan
McMillan Fiberglass Stocks Inc
http://mcmfamily.com
Kelly McMillan
R. Pierce Reid wrote:
#
# This is correct... if you buy an *un*barreled action and go
# through Brady and fill out the yellow-sheet as a *pistol* and you
# can build it that way. I would get this in writing from them
# before you start, though and keep the letter.
#
# Sako, Remington and a number of other companies sell
# actions-only.
#
# Hope this helps,
#
# R.P. Reid
#
# --
# My opinions are my own, unless someone is paying me to say
# otherwise.
#
# Cheers...
Remington does not sell actions only for liability reasons. Barreled
actions are available but then you are stuck with a rifle.
TSBench
<<<Well for one thing, there is a Supreme Court opinion on
Thompson/Contenders.>>>>
If I recall correctly, there were a few chuckles involved in this case.
During the oral arguments, the Feds were making the case that anyone who
owned a contender pistol AND a carbine stock kit was guilty of possessing
a 'short barreled' rifle. One of the justices (either O'Connor or Scalia)
remarked that this interpretation meant that it would be illegal to own a
shotgun and a hacksaw at the same time. The Feds were later asked if they
had any record of 'any crook dumb enough to use a Contender during the
commission of a crime?' The Feds sheepishly replied 'no.'
Regards,
TSBench
Alan Horowitz
Short-barreled rifles don't have a heavy "assault weapon" reputation. You
probably have a reasonable liklihood in getting your CLEO to sign a Form 4