Jeff Cooper's Commentaries - Dec/96 (Vol. 4 No. 15)
Barry Needham
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Sory for the slow distribution of these Commentaries, but I was out of the
country for most of December. The last December issue (No. 16) will be
distributed shortly.
Attached is the latest issue of Jeff Cooper's Commentaries. Comments can be
sent directly to Jeff at:
Jeff Cooper
Gunsite Ranch
Paulden, Arizona 86334.
As usual, I would be happy to forward any comments from our international
readers.
These Commentaries are also available on the web. In fact, all of the
Commentaries, from the end of the old Gunsite Gossip, are available. The new
url(s) for this are:
http://www.cybersurf.co.uk/JeffCooper/
http://wwww.concentric.net/~mkeithr/jeff/index.html
Enjoy,
Barry.
=============================================================
Jeff Cooper's Commentaries
Previously Gunsite Gossip
Vol. 4, No. 15 December, 1996
Winter
Now the chilly season is upon us. We ran up to Montana to evaluate this
and found it was indeed so. For three of our days up there in the Belt
Mountains the daily high temperature did not rise to zero, Fahrenheit.
According to our hosts, however, this is not cold weather for Montana --
that sets in at 30 below and colder.
We can claim with some professional justification that we went hunting in
order to test certain cartridges and their loadings. Five hits does not
form much of a statistical base, but both the 350s and the 30-06 worked
out just fine (to nobody's surprise). As expected, the "360 Special" was
somewhat excessive for mule deer, but the Federal 30-06 "High Energy"
load, using the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw 180 bullet, proved out more than
just adequate for elk, going clear through on a raking shot Way Out Past
Fort Mudge for a one-shot stop.
For the statistically inclined, one lot of Military Match 168-grain 30-06
clocked 2691 f/s from a 24-inch barrel. Out of the same barrel the 180
Federal High Energy averaged 2909. Out of the 20-inch barrel of Lindy's
pseudoscout the FHE 180 clocked 2850. It is not clear to me that a
hopped-up 30-06 is going to prove more efficient in the field than the
garden variety ammunition we have been using for several generations, but
I am told that this improvement will show up well in the sales figures --
and that's were it counts.
* * *
Note that the Billary gang back in the White House is now attempting to
ban re-importation of U.S. military firearms from Europe. And with their
customary twisted reasoning these folks seem to feel that only high tech
assault weapons are dangerous, implying that World War II material is
obsolete. Perhaps they know, but will not admit, that the M1 Garand and
the 1911 pistol still lead all the rest in combat efficiency. It may be
adduced that if each household in this country was equipped with one of
each we would have no need to worry about either the crime rate or "the
jack-booted terrorists."
* * *
Now is the time to start making your hunting plans for 1997. A year
without hunting is like a dinner without wine.
* * *
Have you seen the ads for that gold-plated Winchester 95 being introduced
to honor Theodore Roosevelt -- at $3,750 a throw? This would certainly
make into a grand prize for our next Gunsite Reunion and Theodore
Roosevelt Memorial next October, except that it is in the wrong caliber.
TR's lion medicine was issued in caliber 405 Winchester, while this
successor comes in 30-06. There is certainly nothing wrong with the
30-06, but it is nonetheless the wrong cartridge for this particular
collector's item. (Just for that, we will not buy one.)
* * *
Did you all see "The Ghost and the Darkness," a sort of wacky cinematic
treatment of the famed man-eaters of Tsavo? It bore only the most casual
relation to the truth, but the photography was marvelous. Among other
things, the movie caused a good many aficionados to go back and re-read
the true story again.
* * *
"The brave and generous have the best lives. They are seldom sorry."
- Havamal "The Sayings of the Vikings"
via Finn Aagaard
* * *
A great deal of excitement and fury has been arising out of public notice
of the recent federal bill depriving those convicted of spouse abuse of
their civil rights. When this matter comes to court the law may be
characterized as an ex post facto bill of attainder, forbidden in this
country. Essentially one cannot punish a man for an act which did not
prescribe that punishment when the act was committed. Of course, this
brings up the essential problem of our time in the United States, and that
is what is to be done when the government sees fit to break its own laws.
That may be the principle question before the house in the 21st century.
* * *
Barry Miller, our man in Africa, is now serving on the executive committee
of the Natal Hunters' Association. In his opinion too much of the
attention of the Association is devoted to competitive prize- giving. He
is of the opinion that this is in conflict with ethical hunting, not
dissimilar to the problem faced by practical shooting, wherein objectives
are lost sight of in the race for prizes. In response to his request, I
faxed him the following statement:
"Dear Barry, We are entirely in accord on the subject of hunting-trophy
prizes. In my opinion, hunting is not a competitive occupation. Rather
it is an essentially "inner- directed" activity in which success is
achieved by and for the individual hunter, without regard for the
opinions of his peers.
Among other things, trophy size is almost never a function of hunting
skill. Normally the hunter just happens upon a record head. (I have
several record heads, all encountered by chance.)
The trophy is a souvenir of a memorable experience, and its importance
is unrelated to competitive judgement.
This is an unpopular viewpoint, but it should be enunciated."
* * *
We hear from our British periodical The Week that "Americans have ceased
taking their Presidency seriously." Could well
be!
* * *
As you know, there is no numerical speed limit in Montana at this time,
motorists being required to drive their cars at a rate which is
"reasonable and prudent." We discover there is a movement in the state
house up there to re-instate the numerical speed limit. As a reason the
highway patrol spokesman maintained that without a speed limit Montana
drivers do not now sufficiently respect the highway patrol. Shucks!
* * *
In a very peculiar recent incident one of the faithful reported that the
marine guard on duty at the memorial honoring the Marines who died in the
car bombing in Beirut had no magazines in their rifles. A possible cause
for that disaster was the fact that the sentry on duty in Lebanon did not
have a magazine in his M16.
It has been said that once the government does not trust you, you may be
disinclined to trust that government. Expanding that, it may be said that
when the government does not trust its own soldiers, it has no need of
soldiers.
* * *
In a recent adventure appearing in one of the science fiction magazines,
the author postulates time travel and suggests that his protagonist, when
wafted back into the late Stone Age, was able to bring along his own
personal fancied-up Colt Commander in 45, and that his subsequent
adventures gave rise to the legend of Mjîlnir, the Hammer of Thor. That's
an entertaining thought, as it re-states the question that many of us have
considered in our reading of time travel fantasy in general.
Knowing what you do about smallarms, what piece that you now own would you
choose to accompany you back into days gone by? This may be worth a small
bull session.
* * *
In the development of the scout rifle concept I am embarrassed to admit
that I have never given proper consideration to shooting in conditions of
reduced light. Since the scout rifle is by essence a general-purpose
weapon, it should be suitable for as many different sets of conditions as
possible. I have used the scoutscope on several occasions in conditions
of dim light, but I have never submitted the matter to careful testing.
The Europeans are partial to huge telescopic sights suitable for shooting
in the dusk. Since one is never justified in shooting at anything he
cannot see, it is not entirely clear to me if these "moon scopes" actually
do increase the hitability of the rifle. It is thus interesting to note
that the receiver of the production scout prototype from Steyr Mannlicher
is slotted for conventional scope mounting to the rear. If the new owner
of this projected instrument wants to fit it up for night shooting, he can
do so without recourse to a gunsmith.
* * *
In an age of gadgetry, it is common for the inexperienced to put their
faith in gadgets. The problem with that is that the gadgets don't always
work, and we now have all too many cases in which the uneducated shooter
assumed that once his weapon was placed "on safe" it absolutely would not
fire, and the result was death or serious injury.
Manual safety devices must never be trusted absolutely. Firearm safety
rides between the ears, not between the hands.
* * *
In a recent case reported to us the 40 caliber Hydra Shock bullet came
apart at impact, leaving the jacket on the near side of the target, while
the core penetrated the body to the opposite hip. Bullet integrity is not
ordinarily an important factor in pistol cartridge loadings, but this does
suggest that, in this one case at least, the Hydra Shock bullet was too
fragile for dependable performance.
* * *
We are now informed that the new South African constitution bans the death
penalty. This is explicitly contrary to the wishes of the great majority
of South African citizens -- of all colors and races.
But we could make the same observation about England, where all polls
indicate that the people want the death penalty re-instated, but their
parliament puts itself above such lower-class agitation.
* * *
It appears in New Orleans recently the citizens became upset because of
the proliferation of murder in the French Quarter. Groups gathered in the
street to protest. Just how an activist group protests against murder is
unclear. These people evidently feel that the New Orleans police
department is both undermanned and underpaid, but murder is not a problem
to be solved by throwing money at it.
In the big cities we put up with violence because we wish to. There are
two options, neither of which we are prepared to take. One is a police
state, and the other is a totally armed citizenry. If we do not like
either of those two choices we can take to the streets and wave our arms.
This may relieve our feelings, but it will not help the situation.
* * *
Daughter Lindy expects us to sign some pilot issues of her new book on
this coming weekend. I find it hard to believe that the publication will
be ready at that time, but I am looking forward to it nonetheless. Lindy
is taking orders at Wisdom Publishing, Inc., 1840 E. Warner Road, Box 238,
Tempe, AZ 85284.
* * *
It has been suggested that in my rifle teaching I place too much emphasis
on the snap shot, and not enough on recoil.
As to the snap, I am certainly ready to admit that it is rare in the
field. A hunter might spend his entire experience in the field and never
have occasion to use it, but then a man could drive all his life without a
seat belt and never have occasion to use it. In my opinion a qualified
rifleman should be able to bring off the snap reliably, whether or not he
ever needs it. I have had need for it twice, and it was vastly
comforting.
As to recoil, I do tend to dismiss it. It is there and it can be
measured, but its effect on the shooter is about 85 percent mental. Once
that is explained, the shooter simply does not let it bother him. This is
within certain limits, of course. There are pieces which actually do kick
more than is practical for serious use, but such pieces are very rare, and
when I see people putting muzzle-brakes on light and medium rifles, I
conclude that the shooter involved is the principle cause of his own
problem. Over re-acting to booze is called "gun decking" in the Navy.
Maybe that term applies elsewhere.
* * *
Roy Coneen was our host on our recent elk hunt in Montana. After
observing the Lion Scout and John Gannaway's Fireplug, he decided he must
have one of his own. He is going to start with a short-action Winchester
70 and take it from there. This is a delightful project, and we wish him
well. (His finished piece will still have that iddiwa swinging door
safety of the Model 70, but we cannot have everything.)
* * *
Bear in mind that "Meditations on Hunting," by JosÇ Ortega y Gasset, is
the Old Testament of the hunter. You must look for it in old bookstores,
unless you want to go the presentation route, in which case you should
apply to Wilderness Adventures in Montana who will supply you with a gift
copy at $60 a throw (PO Box 627, Gallatin Gateway, MT 59730,
1-800-925-3339).
* * *
I have not as yet been particularly impressed with the idea of a field
range-finder for the rifleman. When the target is in sight I always have
more important things to do than to take range readings on him. However,
I have discovered another use for the gadget, and this is to determine the
exact range at which the shot was taken -- after the target is down. We
could not step off the distances on the two longish shots we took in
Montana, and a modest instrument carried in the hunting car would have
been nice to have.
* * *
In perusing my youthful journals in connection with daughter Lindy's new
book, I discover that our Yukon hunt in 1940 cost us the daunting sum of
thirty dollars a day.
Today the same service runs about one thousand. That is the normal
procession of socialist economics.
* * *
We have been informed that the Glock sales people maintain that the
Parabellum cartridge is effective to a range of 20 to 30 feet,
underwater. I am not about to put this to a test, but at Catalina Island
as a boy I shot into water with all sorts of cartridges, and I very
strongly doubt this Glock statement.
* * *
We noted that 7 December was remembered, if at all, as a day of mourning.
I have never thought of it as such, though it is indeed proper to honor
all of our war dead on Victory Day. I prefer to think of Pearl Harbor Day
as The Day of Awakening -- the birth of the era in which all Americans
worked together. Admiral Nagumo put it right -- "We have awakened a
sleeping giant!"
* * *
"Without a homemaker, there is no home.
Without a home, there is no marriage.
Without a marriage, there are no morals.
Without morals, there can be no civilization."
- The Guru
* * *
Please Note: These "Commentaries" are for personal use only. Not for
publication.
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Barry Needham ba...@needham.vip.best.com
Pager: 1-800-946-4646
PGP 2.6 key available on request Pin: 110-4226
Andrew Walls
I read this in Jeff Coopers Commentaries Dec/96 (vol. 4 no. 15).
#
# In a recent adventure appearing in one of the science fiction magazines,
# the author postulates time travel and suggests that his protagonist, when
# wafted back into the late Stone Age, was able to bring along his own
# personal fancied-up Colt Commander in 45, and that his subsequent
# adventures gave rise to the legend of Mjîlnir, the Hammer of Thor. That's
# an entertaining thought, as it re-states the question that many of us have
# considered in our reading of time travel fantasy in general.
#
# Knowing what you do about smallarms, what piece that you now own would you
# choose to accompany you back into days gone by? This may be worth a small
# bull session.
#
As a handgun for a traveller into the past I propose the S&W Mountain
Gun (.44 Magnum revolver in stainless steel with 4" barrel). With
various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid
traveller should also carry a simple reloader such as the "Lee Loader",
a bullet mould and the other necessarys for reloading.
Opinions? Comments?
Andrew Walls
Near the arctic circle
Norway
Edmund H. Rowe
Andrew Walls (andrew...@nbr.no) wrote:
: I read this in Jeff Coopers Commentaries Dec/96 (vol. 4 no. 15).
: # In a recent adventure appearing in one of the science fiction magazines,
: # the author postulates time travel and suggests that his protagonist, when
: # wafted back into the late Stone Age, was able to bring along his own
: # personal fancied-up Colt Commander in 45, and that his subsequent
: #(deleted)
: # Knowing what you do about smallarms, what piece that you now own would you
: # choose to accompany you back into days gone by? This may be worth a small
: # bull session.
: As a handgun for a traveller into the past I propose the S&W Mountain
: Gun (.44 Magnum revolver in stainless steel with 4" barrel). With
: various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
: against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid
: traveller should also carry a simple reloader such as the "Lee Loader",
: a bullet mould and the other necessarys for reloading.
: Opinions? Comments?
: Andrew Walls
Well, first I'll assume you're going with what you can carry on your
back and not a column of Hummers with .50 BMG Ma Deuces and about 50
good buddies. :-)
I agree with some sort of simple reloader as long as I brought a bunch
of bullets and primers and powder. Might as well bring a bunch of
cartridges to begin with.
Handgun would be some big bore .44 or .45 wheelgun or auto. I'd be
concerned with a pack of hyenas or annoyed locals so I'd tend toward a
45 ACP auto. Glock 21, Norinco 1911A1, or Para-Ordnance P14, I can
use any of them well.
Rifle would be a .45-70 Remington Rolling Block. Have you ever seen
how dirt simple the design is on these babys? A small bag of pins,
springs, and an extractor and you've got all the easily breakable
parts spared away.
Historical note: In Elmer Keith's book, Sixguns he describes a group
of cowboys that drove a herd through the same territory that the
Fetterman massacre took place about a month prior, but they and their
cattle made it through. The whole party had two colt sixguns and
a Remington Rolling Block each.
Of course, the best thing a time traveller could bring is a panic
button so he could beam himself out if trouble came.
Edmund Rowe
DarkAvngr1
Andrew Walls <andrew...@nbr.no> wrote:
#As a handgun for a traveller into the past I propose the S&W Mountain
#Gun (.44 Magnum revolver in stainless steel with 4" barrel). With
#various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
#against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid
#traveller should also carry a simple reloader such as the "Lee Loader",
#a bullet mould and the other necessarys for reloading.
#Opinions? Comments?
#
#Andrew Walls
#Near the arctic circle
#Norway
This would seem to be one of the better choices of weaponry for a time
traveller to carry. A .454 Casull would be more effective against large
beasts, and I -think- (not sure, though) that it would be able to use .45
Colt against smaller critters. However, I don't want to be lugging a
Casull around with me everywhere, and the cases would probably wear out
pretty fast.
Personally, I'd go for a big, rugged revolver in a heavy caliber,
something like a Ruger Super Redhawk .44 magnum or .45 Colt. The gun would
used more as a combat weapon against men or dangerous animals, rather than
as a means of taking game for food. (You only have a limited supply of
ammunition- take game with bows, spears, slings, snares, etc.) A simple
reloading press, bullet mould, primers, cases, and powder would be a must.
(I'd try and carry an 8-lb can if on foot, if I had a vehicle, I'm filling
the trunk. ;->) Spare parts for the gun would be a must, (carry as many as
you can; you'll never get more.) along with extra cases, and primers. It's
easy enough to mould your own bullets, assuming you can get lead, or other
metals with low melting points, if lead is not available, and black powder
can be fabricated, (but it's a pain in the arse...) but primers will be
hard to find. (Can they be made from scratch, or re-activated?)
Of course, you could always carry a flintlock.
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JayStr
Andrew Walls wrote:
#
# I read this in Jeff Coopers Commentaries Dec/96 (vol. 4 no. 15).
#
# #
# # In a recent adventure appearing in one of the science fiction magazines,
# # the author postulates time travel and suggests that his protagonist, when
# # wafted back into the late Stone Age, was able to bring along his own
# # personal fancied-up Colt Commander in 45, and that his subsequent
# # adventures gave rise to the legend of Mjîlnir, the Hammer of Thor. That's
# # an entertaining thought, as it re-states the question that many of us have
# # considered in our reading of time travel fantasy in general.
# #
# # Knowing what you do about smallarms, what piece that you now own would you
# # choose to accompany you back into days gone by? This may be worth a small
# # bull session.
# #
#
# As a handgun for a traveller into the past I propose the S&W Mountain
# Gun (.44 Magnum revolver in stainless steel with 4" barrel). With
# various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
# against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid
# traveller should also carry a simple reloader such as the "Lee Loader",
# a bullet mould and the other necessarys for reloading.
# Opinions? Comments?
#
# Andrew Walls
# Near the arctic circle
# Norway
Why would anybody take anything but the kit gun they normally carry
around? And why would anybody have a kit gun besides a .22 revolver?
I would take a .22 Ruger Single-Six and a brick of ammo. You can kill
practically anything with a .22, if you're careful, and it's nice &
quiet... and, if you're going on a one way trip where there are no
gunsmiths & no K-Marts, it'll keep working rain or shine & let you carry
500 or even 1,000 rounds without much difficulty. Try THAT with a .357.
-- Jay Stranahan
Abe D. Lockman
# I read this in Jeff Coopers Commentaries Dec/96 (vol. 4 no. 15).
#
# #
# # In a recent adventure appearing in one of the science fiction magazines,
# # the author postulates time travel and suggests that his protagonist, when
# # wafted back into the late Stone Age, was able to bring along his own
# # personal fancied-up Colt Commander in 45, and that his subsequent
# # adventures gave rise to the legend of Mjîlnir, the Hammer of Thor.
{deletion}
# As a handgun for a traveller into the past I propose the S&W Mountain
# Gun (.44 Magnum revolver in stainless steel with 4" barrel). With
# various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
# against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid
# traveller should also carry a simple reloader such as the "Lee Loader",
# a bullet mould and the other necessarys for reloading.
# Opinions? Comments?
You might try a 1956 short story by Poul Anderson titled "The Man Who Came
Early,"
wherein a time traveler visits classic Iceland (circa 1000 AD) with modern
firearms. It points out that one individual's technological superiority
doesn't matter; when he doesn't fit into the local social structure they
kill him regardless of their slightly disproportinate casualties.
adl
Glenn E. Meyer
#
# Gun (.44 Magnum revolver in stainless steel with 4" barrel). With
# various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
# against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid
# traveller should also carry a simple reloader such as the "Lee Loader",
# a bullet mould and the other necessarys for reloading.
# Opinions? Comments?
Why take a reloader? How much powder, brass and primers are you taking?
Or do you assume you will pick up your brass after being chased by
a T. Rex or Attila the Hun?
Are you going to make black powder by going into volcanos for sulpher,
burning wood for charcoal in controlled condtions and digging under
manure piles for saltpeter (potassium nitrate)?
Good luck on making primer stuff till the late 1700's.
Defense against man with a 44 Magnum:
Assume you are by yourself -
Oops - here's Mr. Longbow and his friends. Who has the advantage?
Ever see a dinosaur skeleton? 44 mag - HA HA . You die by blood loss
or nervous system disruption. Ain't gonna happen with a big one.
Dinosaur - Yum Yum
If the 44 is marginal for bears - go stand in skeleton in the museums
in London, New York or Chicago.
Bye the way - many nonfirearms cultures figured out how firearms worked
and weren't impressed. They lost because they didn't have them or
significant tactical knowledge to deal with them.
The natives are frightened by the firestick is just racist fantasies.
Tiger
In article <32E36B...@nbr.no>
Andrew Walls <andrew...@nbr.no> writes:
#
#I read this in Jeff Coopers Commentaries Dec/96 (vol. 4 no. 15).
#
##
## In a recent adventure appearing in one of the science fiction magazines,
## the author postulates time travel and suggests that his protagonist, when
## wafted back into the late Stone Age, was able to bring along his own
## personal fancied-up Colt Commander in 45, and that his subsequent
## adventures gave rise to the legend of Mjnlnir, the Hammer of Thor. That's
## an entertaining thought, as it re-states the question that many of us have
## considered in our reading of time travel fantasy in general.
##
## Knowing what you do about smallarms, what piece that you now own would you
## choose to accompany you back into days gone by? This may be worth a small
## bull session.
##
#
#As a handgun for a traveller into the past I propose the S&W Mountain
#Gun (.44 Magnum revolver in stainless steel with 4" barrel). With
#various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
#against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid
#traveller should also carry a simple reloader such as the "Lee Loader",
#a bullet mould and the other necessarys for reloading.
#Opinions? Comments?
#
#Andrew Walls
#Near the arctic circle
#Norway
Since reloads for your Magnum would be hard to come by A black powder revolver
like a Colt 1851 Navy or 1860 Army might be an option to consider. For My
time travel my personal Hi-Power clone and ammo plus my Swedish Mauser.
LIVE FREE OR DIE
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Mark Yaworski
As a handgun for a traveller into the past I propose the S&W Mountain
# various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
# against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid
# traveller should also carry a simple reloader such as the "Lee Loader",
# a bullet mould and the other necessarys for reloading.
# Opinions? Comments?
I'd skip the reloading equipment becuase depending on when you went,
finding lead to cast bullets would be a problem and the idead of toting
a 1000 primers in my backpack makes me a bit nervous.
Jeff Barr-David
Andrew Walls wrote:
# =
# I read this in Jeff Coopers Commentaries Dec/96 (vol. 4 no. 15).
# =
# #
# # In a recent adventure appearing in one of the science fiction magazin=
es,
# # the author postulates time travel and suggests that his protagonist, =
when
# # wafted back into the late Stone Age, was able to bring along his own
# # personal fancied-up Colt Commander in 45, and that his subsequent
# # adventures gave rise to the legend of Mj=EElnir, the Hammer of Thor. =
That's
# # an entertaining thought, as it re-states the question that many of us=
have
# # considered in our reading of time travel fantasy in general.
# #
# # Knowing what you do about smallarms, what piece that you now own woul=
d you
# # choose to accompany you back into days gone by? This may be worth a =
small
# # bull session.
# #
# =
# As a handgun for a traveller into the past I propose the S&W Mountain
# Gun (.44 Magnum revolver in stainless steel with 4" barrel). With
# various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
# against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid=
# traveller should also carry a simple reloader such as the "Lee Loader",=
# a bullet mould and the other necessarys for reloading.
# Opinions? Comments?
# =
# Andrew Walls
# Near the arctic circle
# Norway
I personally think either a large calibre cap and ball revolver (colt or
remmington replica in stainless), a flintlock rifle or a pair of
flintlick dueling pistols; along with extra bullets, a bullet mould, a
full powder flask and spare caps or flints. Main reason for this is if I
do run out of ammo, I don't need to make new cartridges cases; and I
could if needed I could manufacture my own gunpowder and find new pieces
of flint.
If, on the other hand I could travel back and forth at will, I would
chose one of the many "wondernines" or a hi-cap .40" or .45" calibre
semiautos that are currently available. Perhaps a 9mm (or .45" if
available) Calico with a 100 round helical mag wouldn't go unwanted
either.
-- =
**** Mater tua caligas gerit. ****
Ruler of the Seas
#If, on the other hand I could travel back and forth at will,
In that case I would get a laser gun!
Ruler of the Seas
#I would take a .22 Ruger Single-Six and a brick of ammo. You can kill
#practically anything with a .22, if you're careful, and it's nice &
#quiet... and, if you're going on a one way trip where there are no
#gunsmiths & no K-Marts, it'll keep working rain or shine & let you
carry
#500 or even 1,000 rounds without much difficulty. Try THAT with a
357.
Good point! But my choice would be a .22 High Standard with an
extra suppressor barrel assembly. And accomponied by a 1.5" flare gun.
E.G. Clayton
On 21 Jan 1997, Jeff Barr-David wrote:
[snip]
# If, on the other hand I could travel back and forth at will, I would
# chose one of the many "wondernines" or a hi-cap .40" or .45" calibre
# semiautos that are currently available. Perhaps a 9mm (or .45" if
# available) Calico with a 100 round helical mag wouldn't go unwanted
# either.
Jump *forward* in time 1,000 years and get yourself whatever they're
zapping Klingons with.
Hey, if you're making it all up, you might as well think big.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Clayton
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
br...@alr.com
JayStr <jay...@best.com> wrote:
SNIP
#Why would anybody take anything but the kit gun they normally carry
#around? And why would anybody have a kit gun besides a .22 revolver?
#I would take a .22 Ruger Single-Six and a brick of ammo. You can kill
#practically anything with a .22, if you're careful, and it's nice &
#quiet... and, if you're going on a one way trip where there are no
#gunsmiths & no K-Marts, it'll keep working rain or shine & let you carry
#500 or even 1,000 rounds without much difficulty. Try THAT with a .357.
#-- Jay Stranahan
I'll second the .22LR, but I would bring a bolt rifle.
Also can be used as a club.
It'll be easier to feed yourself with, and better for
defense AT A DISTANCE. Second the S**t-loads
of ammo, too. There is no comparison to 1000 rds.
of 22 to anything larger.
Also, the most important thing when travelling into
an unknown is STEALTH. The less people/things
that know of your existance, the less the threat.
.22LR is quiet(er), and less noticeable.
Tim Fong
# Why would anybody take anything but the kit gun they normally carry
# around? And why would anybody have a kit gun besides a .22 revolver?
#
# I would take a .22 Ruger Single-Six and a brick of ammo. You can kill
# practically anything with a .22, if you're careful, and it's nice &
# quiet... and, if you're going on a one way trip where there are no
# gunsmiths & no K-Marts, it'll keep working rain or shine & let you carry
# 500 or even 1,000 rounds without much difficulty. Try THAT with a .357.
#
# -- Jay Stranahan
Good idea, but how about a Ruger cap-and-ball revolver repro? First
off, it easily uses black powder. Since smokeless is really just a
development of this century. Second, all you need is to bring the caps
powder and a bullet mold. No cases. Furthermore, since black powder is
relatively common, if you run out, you can always get more. Those old
revolvers killed a lot of people, so it's not like they're not effective
weapons. Plus the Ruger is stainless steel so it's durable. And the
design is simple and rugged. What if you're someplace more modern? Go
out and buy a new piece. Just my opinions.
T. Fong
Bill Oertell
As long as we're talking about time travel...I assume it's not one
way. In that case, I'd go into the future and pick up a nice full
spread plasma rifle in, say, the 40 gigawatt range. An antimatter
grenade or two would be nice, as well.
Why limit myself to what's available today?
--
Bill
Jim
Andrew Walls wrote:
#
#
# # In a recent adventure appearing in one of the science fiction magazines,
# # the author postulates time travel and suggests that his protagonist, when
# # wafted back into the late Stone Age, was able to bring along his own
# # personal fancied-up Colt Commander in 45, and that his subsequent
# # adventures gave rise to the legend of Mjîlnir, the Hammer of Thor. That's
# # an entertaining thought, as it re-states the question that many of us have
# # considered in our reading of time travel fantasy in general.
# #
# # Knowing what you do about smallarms, what piece that you now own would you
# # choose to accompany you back into days gone by? This may be worth a small
# # bull session.
# #
#
# Gun (.44 Magnum revolver in stainless steel with 4" barrel). With
# various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
# against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid
# Opinions? Comments?
#
# Near the arctic circle
# Norway
I'd take my 629DX Classic 6". I'd want at least 1000 rounds of various
ammo in some kind of resealable case. I guess that'd weigh about 50lbs,
so I'd better have a really good backpack too. I doubt reloading
materials would hold up as well as loaded ammo would. I'd take plenty of
my 270gr GDSP handloads along. Penetration is excellent on these
rounds.
Jim
Jim Wallace
#
##
## In a recent adventure appearing in one of the science fiction magazines,
## the author postulates time travel and suggests that his protagonist, when
## wafted back into the late Stone Age, was able to bring along his own
## personal fancied-up Colt Commander in 45, and that his subsequent
<snip>
##
## choose to accompany you back into days gone by? This may be worth a small
## bull session.
##
#
#Gun (.44 Magnum revolver in stainless steel with 4" barrel). With
#various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
#against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid
#traveller should also carry a simple reloader such as the "Lee Loader",
#a bullet mould and the other necessarys for reloading.
#Opinions? Comments?
#
I think it might be better to leave the reloading kit behind. You could
probably pack 300-400 extra rounds of ammo in the space/weight that the
reloading supplies would use.
Take care... Jim
Abe D. Lockman
In article <5c16or$2...@wrdiss1.robins.af.mil>, er...@robins.af.mil (Edmund
H. Rowe) wrote:
# Historical note: In Elmer Keith's book, Sixguns he describes a group
# of cowboys that drove a herd through the same territory that the
# Fetterman massacre took place about a month prior, but they and their
# cattle made it through. The whole party had two colt sixguns and
# a Remington Rolling Block each.
Perhaps they didn't boast as loudly as Fetterman, or perhaps Red Cloud &
Co. bore them no grudge (e.g., they weren't establishing a permanent post)
or had better things to do at the time? Not necessarily an armaments
issue.
{deletion}
adl
Peter H. Proctor
In article <Gmeyer-2101...@mey7100.psyc.trinity.edu> Gme...@Trinity.edu (Glenn E. Meyer) writes:
#From: Gme...@Trinity.edu (Glenn E. Meyer)
#Subject: Re: A Gun for a Time traveller?
#Date: 21 Jan 1997 18:30:16 -0500
#Bye the way - many nonfirearms cultures figured out how firearms worked
#and weren't impressed. They lost because they didn't have them or
#significant tactical knowledge to deal with them.
Exactly, the Commanches didn't think much of the white mans firearms
until the revolver. Took too long to reload. Up until the last century,
the main advantage of firearms was that it took a long time and constant
training to become proficient with muscle-powered weapons. Where you could
produce a competent musqueteer in a couple of months.
PHP
Carl Speed
I think I'd go with an MP-5/10 for a rifle, and a Glock20 for defense.
A Taurus Model 94 (9-shot .22LR revolver) with a few bricks of ammo
would also come in handy.
John Curtis
#
## choose to accompany you back into days gone by? This may be worth a small
## bull session.
##
#
My custom built rifle would be some lever action .30 caliber rifle
with a muzzle loader with flintlock in an over/under arrangement.
Built into the stock would be a small kit with cleaning and bullet
casting supplies. Engraving on the stock would describe the home recipe
for gunpowder, with some helpful hints on locating and refining lead.
We'd include some basic gunsmithing and metallurgy info, also.
The .30 lever action would be good for short-term hunting and
defense needs. The muzzleloader would be more sustainable over the
long term. Might be feasible even in a totally unindustrial culture to
support blackpowder hunting.
Now, if we were talking *forward* time travel (which we are all
doing continuously anyway), I'm flummoxed. Which of my firearms are
likely to be most interesting/useful several hundred years from now?
ciao,
jcurtis
--
David Burns
I'd take an over under rifle shotgun combo. Assuming that you are going
to need it to hunt small game for food etc.. I would be less worried
about animal attacks etc.. Most animals are scared off by loud noises
etc..
You could carry lots of .22LR or Hornets and some shotgun shells for
birds. A .22 will bring down rabbits sqirrels etc. and some larger game
with a well placed shot. This is all assuming that you are only allowed
one gun.
Carl Speed
ppro...@neosoft.com (Peter H. Proctor) wrote:
# Exactly, the Commanches didn't think much of the white mans firearms
#until the revolver. Took too long to reload. Up until the last century,
#the main advantage of firearms was that it took a long time and constant
#training to become proficient with muscle-powered weapons. Where you could
#produce a competent musqueteer in a couple of months.
I think the Winchester lever action got their attention when they
found they couldn't rush in after the first volley of fire while the
white man was reloading his fire stick.
jeff barr-david
John Curtis wrote:
#snip<
# Now, if we were talking *forward* time travel (which we are all
# doing continuously anyway), I'm flummoxed. Which of my firearms are
# likely to be most interesting/useful several hundred years from now?
#
I think it could be almost any firearm of this time period, depending on
how far into the future you travelled. What I mean, is that it could be
considered an antique or very rare. Even the incredibly commonly
avialable handguns, such as colt m1911a1 or berreta 92f, or rifles and
shotguns that are now commonly found in many gunshops around the world.
Just think about medieval swords. Just about any sword which has
survived intact from this period with its fittings and scabbard would
probably be worth more than its weight in gold.
--
Todd D. Ellner
Just how far into the future or past are we talking about? If it's
before the Pleistocene die-off nothing mentioned so far is big enough.
Critters back then would have had no fear of man, and the thought of
taking down a hyena the size of a modern lion with a 22 caliber
cartridge is terrifying.
Todd
--
Todd Ellner | The man who never alters his opinion is like the
tel...@cs.pdx.edu | stagnant water and breeds Reptiles of the mind.
(503)557-1572 | --William Blake "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
Michael Justice
In article <5c3l5t$u...@oxy.rust.net> dark...@rust.net (Jim Wallace) writes:
#In article <32E36B...@nbr.no>, Andrew Walls <andrew...@nbr.no> wrote:
##I read this in Jeff Coopers Commentaries Dec/96 (vol. 4 no. 15).
### In a recent adventure appearing in one of the science fiction magazines,
### the author postulates time travel and suggests that his protagonist, when
### wafted back into the late Stone Age, was able to bring along his own
### personal fancied-up Colt Commander in 45, and that his subsequent
#<snip>
###
### Knowing what you do about smallarms, what piece that you now own would you
### choose to accompany you back into days gone by? This may be worth a small
### bull session.
##
##As a handgun for a traveller into the past I propose the S&W Mountain
##Gun (.44 Magnum revolver in stainless steel with 4" barrel). With
##various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
##against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid
##traveller should also carry a simple reloader such as the "Lee Loader",
##a bullet mould and the other necessarys for reloading.
##Opinions? Comments?
##
#I think it might be better to leave the reloading kit behind. You could
#probably pack 300-400 extra rounds of ammo in the space/weight that the
#reloading supplies would use.
Odd, but I haven't seen any posts extolling the virtues of flintlocks.
I suppose it depends on how long you plan to be stuck in the Stone Age;
if you have a reasonable certainty of getting back to our present after
some known amount of elapsed observed time, you can haul your .44's, 9mms,
or whatever. On the other claw, if you're stuck indefinitely, or worse,
permanently, you'd better take a flintlock. You can make your own powder,
remelt and recast your bullets if you cut them out of your prey (or use
native materials, as you would for sulfur/saltpeter/charcoal for making
more powder), and in general keep them going for a lot longer.
Better yet, learn to make arrows, and take along a decent recurve bow.
(A compound would probably be too powerful for homemade wooden arrows.)
-- Michael.
--
Michael A. Justice |"There was nothing like getting up at three in the morning
lib...@eskimo.com | and riding the defensive perimeter in subzero cold, with
Libertarian Party | a loaded rifle, to build up one's sense of responsibility
FIJA, WCW, WAC, NRA| and community." -- _The_Diamond_Age_, by Neal Stephenson
Shawn M. Donovan
On 22 Jan 1997 22:35:51 -0500, jcu...@cisco.com (John Curtis) wrote:
#
# Now, if we were talking *forward* time travel (which we are all
#doing continuously anyway), I'm flummoxed. Which of my firearms are
#likely to be most interesting/useful several hundred years from now?
#
Take your pick! At the rate we're going now, you'll be the only
civilian with a firearm anyway!
You'll be "King of The Hill" with your .22LR pistol.
Jeff Bryant
Meat Mallet wrote:
SNIP
# Today there are air rifles that can shoot a 9mm projectile at
# well over 1000 fps. The 9mm one ( I think) has a magazine that
# allows you to load 6 pellets so it would not be a single shoot and
# out. These are charged off of a scuba tank but can be charged off of a
# hand pump. Almost never need cleaning, don't need powder, casings,
# primers, reloading equipment, etc. All you would need is a pump and a
# bullet mold for the pellets. Aquiring lead for bullets would not be a
# great problem although not real easy either depending on the time you
# travel back too.
#
I have never head of airguns larger than .22. Where can I find out
about a 9mm version? Sounds like a great plinking gun! Thanks for the
information.
P. Wezeman
Most people seem to be assuming that one was going to be stuck in
the past indefinitely, and are giving this question the same answer as
"What would be the best gun to have if one were to be marooned on an
island, your basic Robinson Crusoe scenario. This is an certainly an
interesting question, but I think it's more interesting to look at
the situation of H.G. Well's time traveler in his book "The Time Machine".
Suppose you had invented a time machine and could travel to whatever
period you wished, stay as long as you wished, and return whenever you
wished, providing that you could survive and fight your way past the
Moorlocks or whoever was trying to keep you away from your temporal
vehicle. You can always come back for more food or ammunition provided
that you can stay alive.
I think that in this case the single most useful weapon would be a
military style autoloading rifle in 7.62 mm NATO caliber. This is light
enough for rapid fire, but with a 220 grain full solid round nose bullet
it can kill game the size of an elephant if the shooter does their part.
This would be ballistically about the same as the original round nose
military load for the 30-06 before the Germans invented the spitzer
bullet (Was this perhaps the 30-03?). Similar bullets in 6.5 mm, 7 mm,
and .303 were used extensively on African game before World Was II.
2,300 feet per second was typical for these cartridges.
Against humans, a 7.62 mm rifle is deadly from well outside the the
effective range of any bow, sling, arquebus or other early missile weapon,
and can even outrange early field artillery (in the War Between the States
artillery crews were often picked off by rifle fire from the troops they
were trying to shoot at). It can also pierce any body armor used until
modern times. Warriors on horseback could present a great threat to a
time traveler because of their great speed over many types of terrain.
A mounted party of native Americans or Mongols could easily appear
suddenly and cut the traveler off from his machine. A high powered rifle
could kill them or their horses a long range, and would be much better
than a pistol for engaging fast moving horsemen at short range.
A pre-ban rifle could also kill really big animals if necessary with
rifle grenades. Remember where they asked for a volunteer marksman to
shoot the Rhodasaurus with a rifle grenade at close range in "The Beast
From 20,000 Fathoms"? The grenades might have to be specially made to
avoid endangering the shooter with fragments, and should be of the type
that is launched with an ordinary cartridge instead of a blank; I think
they call these "bullet trap" grenades.
I would choose an M-14, an M1A (built to field specifications rather
than match tolerances for the internal parts), or a Beretta BM59. I think
that the traditional stock that these rifles have is better than a pistol
grip type for snap shooting. It also allows the use of the gun butt as a
club or the use of a bayonet while keeping a shooting grip. (You're going
to want a decent sized knife anyway, why not make it fit on the rifle?
Assuming it's a pre-ban, of course.) For emergency use at close range I
would carry it with the the heavy solid loads in the magazine alternating
with controlled expansion loads of the same weight and trajectory. I would
have 180 grain match ammunition for longer range.
I would have a good rugged scope sight in a detachable mount. These
can hold their zero if they're properly made. A second detachable mount
with a starlight scope would be well worth it's weight in ammunition,
giving me night capability that earlier people simply didn't have. I
would also consider a thermal imaging sight if and when these become small
and rugged enough. The ability to see through fog and locate warm-blooded
animals at night by their body heat would be very useful.
Everything is a compromise. A big bore double would be better against
a rhino, but wouldn't be as good against a pack of dire wolves. This seems
to me about optimum, while still being able to carry all the other gear an
explorer would need.
Peter Wezeman, anti-social Darwinist
"Carpe Cyprinidae"
Nosy
Actually the Henry was known in the West for some time, if
memory serves. The first military rifle that prevented
AmerIndians from successfully rushing troops during reload
time was, of course, the Trapdoor Springfield.
Nosy
<In article <lockman-2101...@dam-as6s10.erols.com> loc...@erols.com (Abe D. Lockman) writes:
< In article <5c16or$2...@wrdiss1.robins.af.mil>, er...@robins.af.mil (Edmund
< H. Rowe) wrote:
< # Historical note: In Elmer Keith's book, Sixguns he describes a group
< # of cowboys that drove a herd through the same territory that the
< # Fetterman massacre took place about a month prior, but they and their
< # cattle made it through. The whole party had two colt sixguns and
< # a Remington Rolling Block each.
< Perhaps they didn't boast as loudly as Fetterman,
True. I doubt that anyone, aside from "Goldilocks" Custer
did, frankly.
<or perhaps Red Cloud & Co. bore them no grudge (e.g., they weren't
<establishing a permanent post)
Nope. The cowboys had quite a few head of cattle stolen,
and proceeded to recover it "with vigor", and were not bothered
again.
< or had better things to do at the time? Not necessarily an armaments
< issue.
Fetterman's troops were carrying muzzle-loaders, and few of them
got many shots off; the column that recovered the bodies reported
that cartridge boxes were recovered virtually full. Perhaps this
was a result of superiour tactics by the allied AmerIndians,
or perhaps this was the result of poor training, or some
combination.
The civilians with the Fetterman column who were armed with Henry
repeaters were found with a lot of brass scattered around their
bodies...a whole lot of brass.
The Texas cowpunchers, in addition to having firearms that could
be loaded & fired at least as fast as trapdoor Springfields,
also chose to use much better tactics than Fetterman did...not
a difficult feat, to be sure.
One more point: at the Wagon Box fight not all that long after
Fetterman's column was wiped out, a relative handful of
soldiers armed with the then-new Trapdoors held off Red Cloud's
finest.
Kristopher M. Means
# #If, on the other hand I could travel back and forth at will,
#
# In that case I would get a laser gun!
Or take Arnold's advice from the gun store scene in the first
"Terminator" movie:
"...and a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range."
"Hey, just what ya see here, pal."
Marc Lacourciere
I would add a VERY good knife, of the large sized models, a smaller camp
knife, and something like the Spyderco in a pocket.
When all else fails, even guns, nothing beats a good knife to keep you
alive.
I'd also consider a good machete, preferably with a handle that can be
attached to a pole. I think Cold Steel makes something like that.
To the handgun, I'd prefer a good simple shotgun. There are few things a
properly loaded shotgun cant take down for the count, and those few things
you really dont want to face no matter what you carry...
Marc.
aeat...@flash.net
In <5cjdel$8...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, dk...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Marc Lacourciere) writes:
#Andrew Walls (andrew...@nbr.no) writes:
## I read this in Jeff Coopers Commentaries Dec/96 (vol. 4 no. 15).
##
## #
## # In a recent adventure appearing in one of the science fiction magazines,
## # the author postulates time travel and suggests that his protagonist, when
## # wafted back into the late Stone Age, was able to bring along his own
## # personal fancied-up Colt Commander in 45, and that his subsequent
## # adventures gave rise to the legend of Mjnlnir, the Hammer of Thor. That's
## # an entertaining thought, as it re-states the question that many of us have
## # considered in our reading of time travel fantasy in general.
## #
## # Knowing what you do about smallarms, what piece that you now own would you
## # choose to accompany you back into days gone by? This may be worth a small
## # bull session.
## #
##
## As a handgun for a traveller into the past I propose the S&W Mountain
## Gun (.44 Magnum revolver in stainless steel with 4" barrel). With
## various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
## against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid
## traveller should also carry a simple reloader such as the "Lee Loader",
## a bullet mould and the other necessarys for reloading.
## Opinions? Comments?
##
## Andrew Walls
## Near the arctic circle
## Norway
##
#I would add a VERY good knife, of the large sized models, a smaller camp
#knife, and something like the Spyderco in a pocket.
#When all else fails, even guns, nothing beats a good knife to keep you
#alive.
#I'd also consider a good machete, preferably with a handle that can be
#attached to a pole. I think Cold Steel makes something like that.
#To the handgun, I'd prefer a good simple shotgun. There are few things a
#properly loaded shotgun cant take down for the count, and those few things
#you really dont want to face no matter what you carry...
#Marc.
#
#
Unless you could be re-supplied w/ ammo, I would go with a Colt 3rd Model
Dragoon. Carry a bullet mold, and a die to stamp out caps from sheet metal,
and the compounds for the percussion cap would be the only real tricky part,
unless you are literally going back to the stone age.
Alan
J. Demko
I think a flintlock of some type might be advisable if the trip was
one way. With some knowledge of geology and basic chemistry you could
produce bullets and blackpowder. You could, I expect, also learn to
knap your own flints. Producing primers to feed a cartridge-bearing
firearm might be a touch more difficult...
Miguel A. Gonzalez
Andrew Walls (andrew...@nbr.no) wrote:
# I read this in Jeff Coopers Commentaries Dec/96 (vol. 4 no. 15).
#
# # In a recent adventure appearing in one of the science fiction magazines,
# # the author postulates time travel and suggests that his protagonist, when
# # wafted back into the late Stone Age, was able to bring along his own
# # personal fancied-up Colt Commander in 45, and that his subsequent
# #(deleted)
# # Knowing what you do about smallarms, what piece that you now own would you
# # choose to accompany you back into days gone by? This may be worth a small
# # bull session.
#
# As a handgun for a traveller into the past I propose the S&W Mountain
# Gun (.44 Magnum revolver in stainless steel with 4" barrel). With
# various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
# against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid
# traveller should also carry a simple reloader such as the "Lee Loader",
# a bullet mould and the other necessarys for reloading.
# Opinions? Comments?
#
# Andrew Walls
#
#
I saw a movie, I don't remember the title, in which a historian
discovers a time traveler while examining a photo taken in the 1800's.
The photo was of the aftermath of a gunfight. The winner was
reloading a S&W DA .357 magnum. Obviously, the gun didn't belong
there.
Anyways, a time traveler should be aware of possible changes to the
timeline his presence might cause. The farther back you go, the
bigger the change.
"... the right of the people to keep and arm bears
shall not be infringed."
0-
Bruce Brodnax
In article <5cjdel$8...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,## I read this in Jeff Coopers Commentaries Dec/96 (vol. 4 no. 15).
##
## # the author postulates time travel and suggests that his protagonist, when
## # wafted back into the late Stone Age, was able to bring along his own
## # personal fancied-up Colt Commander in 45, and that his subsequent
##[snip]
#knife, and something like the Spyderco in a pocket.
This has been a diverting thread, but I really thought the original
comment about a sci-fi article was ironic: the concept was raised in a
story titled "_A Gun for Dinosaur_" *years* ago!
The gist of that other story is that the time-travel guide declined to
take anyone who couldn't handle a .500 double-express back to hunt
dinosaur after the incident related in the story. Nice yarn!...
On another note, does anyone remember the Terminator movie, and why the
characters arrived naked? No (exposed) metal allowed... T2 kinda blew that
premise tho'.
Ciao,
Bruce Brodnax "I am _not_ crazy! MY BRAIN IS ON FIRE!!!" <tm>
Richard L. Molay
I think a handgun would be a better idea than a rifle. It would be
available at all times.
And I think any modern revolver in a fairly heavy caliber would be right.
My choice is a .357 magnum because the bullets aren't quite as heavy as
.44's or .45's. The longer the barrel the better.
A person wouldn't need an infinite supply of ammo. 1,000 rounds would be
enough. People may have lacked technology in past times, but they didn't
have any shortness of intelligence. Sooner or later they'd figure out how
to overpower a gun owner and confiscate the weapon. So it wouldn't be of
much use in subjugating others. The major application would be hunting
game for food and/or the occasional defensive action to keep from being
eaten by some aggressive beast. And how many people ever expend 50 rounds
in a lifetime on those uses?
Think about the certainty of pilfering. A person with reloading
equipment or a large cache of ammunition couldn't take it along on an
antelope hunt. And curious or mischevious people would steal it.
A backpack with a tolerable cargo of bullets and a nice big revolver would
be the ticket. Everyone has a favorite, but the choice between a .38, a
.357 mag, a .44 mag or even a .45 would largely be based on how much
weight the time traveler can carry.
And I would dread any situation where homicide is involved. All it would
take would be the sight of one person dropping to inspire some other tough
guy to figure out how to get the gun while the original owner is sleeping
or looking the other way.
All of this, of course, assumes that the time traveler is a good shot.
The fantasy better include a lot of time at the target range prior to
embarking on the journey.
- Richard
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard L. Molay "Come to the Mildew Festival,
1505 N. Riverhills Drive the Mildew Festival, the Mildew
Temple Terrace, Florida 33617 Festival, mold, mold, mold mold"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Herring
J. Demko wrote:
#
# I think a flintlock of some type might be advisable if the trip was
# one way. With some knowledge of geology and basic chemistry you could
# produce bullets and blackpowder. You could, I expect, also learn to
# knap your own flints. Producing primers to feed a cartridge-bearing
# firearm might be a touch more difficult...
For time travel in the last 500 years, a cap and ball revolver and c & b
rifle in same caliber. And a good receipe for black powder. You need to
carry bullet mold and hope to find a source of lead.
For time travel before 500 years, .45 semi-auto pistol, 12 gauge pump
shotgun, .308 bolt rifle, and mule. Mule to carry ammo, no reloading
eqipment, loaded ammo is lighter. Unless you have bullet molds and,
again a good source of lead.
BTW, you're, hopefully, not going back in time to start a war. The guns
are for protection and food.
For Juarasic Park, something BIG. 90mm recoiless rifle comes to mind.
With softpoints of course.
Jeff Crowell
: Andrew Walls (andrew...@nbr.no) wrote:
: : As a handgun for a traveller into the past I propose the S&W Mountain
: : Gun (.44 Magnum revolver in stainless steel with 4" barrel). With
: : various types of ammo carried this gun could provide good defence
: : against attack from both man or beast. As part of the kit the intrepid
: : traveller should also carry a simple reloader such as the "Lee Loader",
: : a bullet mould and the other necessarys for reloading.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
! Where you planning to find lead?
Assuming the ability to plan the trip, I'd probably spend more time
planning what to bring to support the weapons (i.e. ammo, reloading
supplies, repair parts, etc.) than deciding which weapons to carry.
Virtually any modern rifle or pistol is such a reliable machine that
with care you could be assured of function for any reasonable
length of time. We're implying a visit, rather than a permanent
change, aren't we?
Jeff
--
#######################################################
# #
# Jeff Crowell | | #
# jc...@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com | _ | #
# _________|__( )__|_________ #
# BLD Quality Engineer x/ _| |( . )| |_ \x #
# (208) 396-6525 x |_| ---*|_| x #
# O x x O #
# #
#######################################################
"You are outgunned only if you miss!"
Jeff Cooper
S35Tac
In article <5cl58l$etf$4...@excalibur.flash.net> , aeat...@flash.net writes:
## I read this in Jeff Coopers Commentaries Dec/96 (vol. 4 no. 15).
##
## #
## # In a recent adventure appearing in one of the science fiction magazines,
## # the author postulates time travel and suggests that his protagonist, when
## # wafted back into the late Stone Age, was able to bring along his own
## # personal fancied-up Colt Commander in 45, and that his subsequent
## # an entertaining thought, as it re-states the question that many of us have
## # considered in our reading of time travel fantasy in general.
## #
## # choose to accompany you back into days gone by? This may be worth a small
## # bull session.
You know, some threads are just too tempting to pass by without replying
:)
Ok..remember:
1. We're talking science fiction fantasy.
2. This *is* a bull session.
3. Flames kept to a minimum please :)
Assuming that we *can* carry an unreasonable amount of supplies to last a
few months in the past, here's my vote.
For the unwashed hordes that may have taken a sudden interest in your
presence: 2 or 3 AK-74's with ohhhh...say...give or take a couple
hundred full magazines (30 round mags, not the more PC-type 5 round ones,
please). We do need that many weapons since we'd have to let one cool off
when the barrel starts glowing.
Ok, now for close in work, I'd opt for an HK-94A3 (since this is fantasy,
it'd also be full auto) and of course a few dozen mags (uhhhh...loaded
ones).
For long range...lemme see...how about an Accuracy Intl. CFI rifle in
.300 Win Mag.. I always did want one, and this is about as good a time
to get the $6,000 beaut.
A handgun? Well, any of the Les Baer .45's and the requisite ammo will
do just dandyfine.
Ok, that's it. All 2 billion pounds of weapons and ammunition.
Food? With all these toys, who needs to eat!!
Theft of this loot? Nah...just dig a hole and stash it all.
Gee...I do think this was the funnest (is this even a word) post I ever
placed here in r.g.. Thanks for the fun :)
Alex.
P.S. Can I also bring along a horse and 32 mules to carry the goodies?
P.Lu...@asu.edu
John Curtis (jcu...@cisco.com) wrote:
: Now, if we were talking *forward* time travel (which we are all
: doing continuously anyway), I'm flummoxed. Which of my firearms are
: likely to be most interesting/useful several hundred years from now?
Anything which has been banned. "Common" weapons will likely still be
around, even if they are museum pieces. ARs and such will be less
common, and will probably have more museum quality in about a thousand years.
--
--Patrick
Jerome Bigge
On 30 Jan 1997 17:18:47 -0500, P.Lu...@asu.edu wrote:
#John Curtis (jcu...@cisco.com) wrote:
#
#: Now, if we were talking *forward* time travel (which we are all
#: doing continuously anyway), I'm flummoxed. Which of my firearms are
#: likely to be most interesting/useful several hundred years from now?
#
#Anything which has been banned. "Common" weapons will likely still be
#around, even if they are museum pieces. ARs and such will be less
#common, and will probably have more museum quality in about a thousand years.
#
#
#--
#--Patrick
#
A better choice would be ammo as the guns themselves might well still
be usable even after several centuries have passed if they have been
taken care of. So a supply of .223 and .308 would be a good choice...
That is assuming we're dealing with weapons from our own time. Any
weapon of say the 21st Century might well use some sort of caseless
cartridge. From the standpoint of "gun control", having firearms that
use cartridges that can't be reloaded makes a lot of sense. I do
expect that the arms of the 21st Century will be of this type. It
allows a greater flexibility of design, performance, and for a
government, better control over who has access to weapons.
This is really about the same problem that someone from the 19th
Century would have coming to our time with a load of 45-70 ammo.
Jerome Bigge (jbi...@novagate.com) NRA Life Member
Author of the WARLADY series of SF fantasy novels.
Download them at http://www.novagate.com/~jbigge
Jeff Bryant
I've followed this thread for a while and there have been some great
ideas (black powder, lead ball if can't resupply; .22 because lots of
ammo for weight, etc.) and some utterly fantasy stuff.
One approach I may haven't seen (or missed), especially for a Future
scenario, is the standard guerrila tactic. Rather than taking the most
powerful rifle or pistol, how about the most suitable for acquiring
weapons from the inhabitants? Of course this assumes that the
inhabitants of the time visited are better armed than you could
reasonably be.
Perhaps a silenced .22 pistol for silent ambush of individual armed
opponents. Or a sawed off pump shotgun for ambushing 2-3 individuals in
transit? The sawed off pump may be a pretty good all-purpose weapon
regardless of time period and situation. Good defense against multiple
attackers, suitable for ambushing, even reasonable defense, with slugs,
against large animals. only drawback is the size and weight of ammo, so
if you are just visiting...
Ken Fowler
In article <5cpdru$b...@news3.realtime.net>,
Jim Herring <"mus...@bga.com"@bga.com> wrote:
#
#For time travel in the last 500 years, a cap and ball revolver and c & b
#rifle in same caliber. And a good receipe for black powder. You need to
#carry bullet mold and hope to find a source of lead.
#
#For time travel before 500 years, .45 semi-auto pistol, 12 gauge pump
#shotgun, .308 bolt rifle, and mule. Mule to carry ammo, no reloading
#eqipment, loaded ammo is lighter. Unless you have bullet molds and,
#again a good source of lead.
#
[snip]
Or, for lead, substitute silver, get a white horse, a half mask,
and a snazzy sound track. (Sorry, Magnum)
Todd D. Ellner
In article <5d116q$c...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
Jeff Bryant <jbr...@europa.com> wrote:
#One approach I may haven't seen (or missed), especially for a Future
#scenario, is the standard guerrila tactic. Rather than taking the most
#powerful rifle or pistol, how about the most suitable for acquiring
#weapons from the inhabitants? Of course this assumes that the
#inhabitants of the time visited are better armed than you could
#reasonably be.
I doubt that anyone will ever improve on Chairman Mao's philosophy in
this regard:
"Armed struggle begins with the big knife. With a big knife you can get
a sword. With a sword you can get a pistol. With a pistol you can get a
rifle. With a rifle you can get anything."
It's worked for geurillas all over the world.
mdmu...@mmm.com
Bruce Brodnax wrote:
#
# This has been a diverting thread, but I really thought the original
# comment about a sci-fi article was ironic: the concept was raised in a
# story titled "_A Gun for Dinosaur_" *years* ago!
Sorry, Bruce. I don't agree. I read that story in the late '70s or
early '80s in Analog magazine. I haven't seen the latest one, but the
original stuck with me as I was just getting interested in guns at that
time. Sorry I don't remember the issue. If I find it, I'll post it.
Where was your story?
Mike
Bmoore 2nd
"A Gun for Dinosaur" was produced as a radio play on the series "X minus
one" in the 40s. One of my favorite.
Bill
Bruce Brodnax
In article <5d7p59$o...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, <mdmu...@mmm.com> wrote:
#Bruce Brodnax wrote:
##
## This has been a diverting thread, but I really thought the original
## comment about a sci-fi article was ironic: the concept was raised in a
## story titled "_A Gun for Dinosaur_" *years* ago!
#
#Sorry, Bruce. I don't agree. I read that story in the late '70s or
#early '80s in Analog magazine. I haven't seen the latest one, but the
#original stuck with me as I was just getting interested in guns at that
#time. Sorry I don't remember the issue. If I find it, I'll post it.
#
#Where was your story?
Back in the late 70's/early 80's Del Rey books released a series of
"collected works"-type books by sci-fi/fantasy authors from the Golden &
Silver ages of pulp fiction. Most of the stories in these books had
copyright dates listed in the 40s & 50s. I can't remember if _A Gun for
Dinosaur_ was in the L. Sprague de Camp compendium or another author's;
heck, I don't know if I even own the book anymore! [ A sad thought...]
But it was definitely a good yarn, and was somewhat more focused than the
current thread, as the title would suggest. Of course, it does fit in with
the larger overall topic, and perhaps raises the point that before
deciding on a gun for a time traveler, you'd almost *have* to narrow down
the period to which they'd travel.
So how 'bout breaking it down to some general periods:
Saurian epochs (self-explanatory):
Paleolithic ( Mammoths, wooly rhinos, ground sloths - yeeha!):
Ancient History (up to Middle Ages):
Modern History (up to U.S. Civil War):
Current (this amounts to "what is your favorite carry gun?", but you could
choose something like "A Thompson in a violin case in the '20s!" as an
answer...):
Future: (What would you take with you figuring that a) you might still be
able to find ammo for it, b) it is so hep now that it should find
widespread acceptance in the future, or c) it would be the gun you'd want
to rely on in a post-apocalyptic wasteland.
As for as other good time-travel yarns, there're H.Beam Piper's alternate
timeline stories, and _Lest Darkness Fall_ by L. Sprague de Camp.
Susan C.
dk...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Marc Lacourciere) wrote:
Go to your bookstore and buy 'Time Scout' and 'Wagers of Sin' by
Robert Asprin and Linda Evans. These are the first two books of the
time scout series by these authors and they are a hoot! Firearms play
an important part in the time traveling when going to periods that
have firearms. The authors make a real effort to make guns and their
uses as real as possible.
Susan for Bob (who still has no account of his own)