Converting to Full Auto
Patrick Ward
Hello,
I do not intend to do so but how difficult is
to convert a 9 mm semi auto into full automatic?
Some guy down here killed an intruder with an
"Illegally Modificated 9mm Browning High Power"
Illegally meaning converted to full automatic.
Just as a curiosity, is this possible? If so
can anyone control such shooting?
Thanks,
Patrick.
Carl Vickery
: I do not intend to do so but how difficult is
With some semi-autos, it can be easily done. With others it is
virtually impossible. In the case of the Browning HiPower it can be
done fairly easily. In fact, full-auto HiPowers were manufactured in
Argentina for use by their counter-terrorism forces. A selector switch
on the frame was used to block the movement of the trigger arm.
As the slide cycled, the sear lever hit the raised arm and touched
off another round. From the pictures, it seemed as if the trigger arm
was strengthened and recontoured to handle the beating it takes.
A friend had the opportunity to shoot a full-auto HiPower while visiting
some SAS acquaintances. He claimed that short bursts were controllable
(at short range on a man-sized target). I rather doubt one could empty
the entire 13/14 round magazine with any degree of control, though.
IMHO such weapons are of little use unless one tends to get into
gunfights while in a telephone booth. There is no substitute for
well-aimed fire.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Carl Vickery | ca...@dadd.ti.com |
| Texas Instruments - Design Automation | |
| Dallas, TX | |
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Roy S Rapoport
->Illegally meaning converted to full automatic.
->
->Just as a curiosity, is this possible? If so
->can anyone control such shooting?
Well, theoretically speaking, you could convert, say, a Glock 17 into a
full-auto. All you'd need are some parts (somewhere between 3 and five
parts) that the factory would be more than happy to sell you if you were a
real government agency :)
Seriously, and all I say is based on Kasler's book (which I unfortunately
forgot at work yet again :( ), there isn't that much of a difference between
a Glock 17 (semi-auto) and a Glock 18 (full-auto); externally they look the
same except for the selector lever (which is right where a frame-mounted
safety would be on, say, a Beretta 92F), and some minor yet important size
differences in the slide and some other things. You'd need parts the
factory doesn't sell to anybody without a badge (hell, I'm not sure they
even would sell this to conventional police departments) to convert it.
Kasler claims there's less than 100 (again, this is all from memory) in the
U.S.
Control? The thing (G18) apparently achieves rates of fire of 1100 to 1200
rounds/minute. Of course, even given the 33 round magazine, that's only
1.65 seconds. How much control do you expect?
-roy
Roy S. Rapoport -- 510-601-8356 -- r...@soda.berkeley.edu -- RSRSODA@UCBOCF
ObDisclaimer: I may change my opinion in five or ten years.
finger r...@soda.berkeley.edu for PGP public key
"A slipping sear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you
least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left
of your unit." -- August 1993 issue of PS Magazine, preventive maintenance
magazine of the US army
l...@cbvox1.att.com
#
#Well, theoretically speaking, you could convert, say, a Glock 17 into a
#full-auto. All you'd need are some parts (somewhere between 3 and five
#parts) that the factory would be more than happy to sell you if you were a
#real government agency :)
There is indeed a company which manufactures a Glock-17 full-auto conversion
for sale to gov't agencies. This product had a brief write up in Machine
Gun News several months ago.
--
Larry Cipriani lawrence....@att.com or attmail!lcipriani
"Singapore scientists discover new treatment for attention deficit
disorder." -- USA Today
Dean Brunette
: I don't thin so. All the factory full-auto parts are for the Glock 18,
: that's a pistol just like the Glock 17 but with a _slightly_ wider
: slide rail. That (as the designer intended) makes the full-auto
: parts incompatable with the 17. The only way I can think of to
: make a 17 anything like fully automatic is to jam the firing
: pin forward. That would disable the trigger: The gun would
: start to fire as soon as you dropped the slide and would
: continue to fire from an open bolt until the magazine was
: empty. Please don't try this: It's illegal, very unsafe and
: useless as a weapon.
Actually, I think that jamming the firing pin forward would prevent
the round from completing its upward travel while being held back be the
extractor (the round slides under the extractor, the extractor doesn't
snap over the round like on the AR-15).
Not sure, but studying the action seems to indicate this.
-dean
--
Dean Brunette dra...@dragnet.com
Strategic Open Solutions Group de...@sos.com
Belmont, CA (line-eater bait)
Frank Crary
Roy S Rapoport <r...@soda.berkeley.edu> wrote:
#->Illegally meaning converted to full automatic.
#->Just as a curiosity, is this possible? If so
#->can anyone control such shooting?
#Well, theoretically speaking, you could convert, say, a Glock 17 into a
#full-auto. All you'd need are some parts (somewhere between 3 and five
#parts) that the factory would be more than happy to sell you if you were a
#real government agency :)
I don't thin so. All the factory full-auto parts are for the Glock 18,
that's a pistol just like the Glock 17 but with a _slightly_ wider
slide rail. That (as the designer intended) makes the full-auto
parts incompatable with the 17. The only way I can think of to
make a 17 anything like fully automatic is to jam the firing
pin forward. That would disable the trigger: The gun would
start to fire as soon as you dropped the slide and would
continue to fire from an open bolt until the magazine was
empty. Please don't try this: It's illegal, very unsafe and
useless as a weapon.
#Control? The thing (G18) apparently achieves rates of fire of 1100 to 1200
#rounds/minute. Of course, even given the 33 round magazine, that's only
#1.65 seconds. How much control do you expect?
Apparently, it's possible to control. The gun was designed for a
very small market: An Austrian counter-terrorist unit. That
means the intended users would be very highly trained with their
weapons. A suppose if you practice an hour or two every day, you
can learn to control the gun and have enough trigger control to
fire only short bursts. For anyone with less training, I doubt
it would be controlable.
Frank Crary
CU Boulder
Daniel T. Golder
convert the mechanism to full auto. I would think there would have to be
a complete redesign of the trigger mechanism--I just can't see how to make
it repeat fire, given the fact that pulling the trigger is the last step
necessary to release the trigger.
Full auto just doesn't seem feasible unless you make some major changes.
Dean Brunette
: Ummm...the round may well 'slide under' the extractor during normal feed,
: but the extractor *will* move outward to 'snap over' a round. Otherwise,
: it would be impossible to close the slide with a round (manually)
Well Lee, it doesn't do this on my Glock 19... if you try and do this on
mind, it bangs up the casing pretty well, and if it is forced the slide
will go into battery. But it really doesn't like it.
: inserted in the chamber. Note also that, with a round in the chamber,
: the extractor is pushed out slightly from it's empty-chamber rest point
: (kind of a poor-man's loaded-chamber indicator).
When I read Peter Kasler's book and it said this, I thought it was quite
cool that I could tell if the chamber was loaded, but then discovered
mine doesn't really do this either! Those two seem to be related...
: As far as the protruding firing pin hanging up the empty casing during
: ejection, I suspect the normal motion of the casing involves a fairly
: vigorous rotation, pivoting on the extractor, which would move the primer
: clear of the firing pin regardless of its position. (For that matter, I
: don't know whether the firing pin has retracted yet at that point anyway:
: it may not retract until the slide moves back forward.) Anybody know of a
: very-slow-motion closeup video of the ejection port of a Glock or similar
: semiauto?
On a normal semi-auto Glock, you're correct about the pivot action--it
pivots on the extractor, which would bring it away from a protruding
firing pin. The firing pin is free to retract at any point after
striking the primer: nothing holds it against the primer. Momentum
carries it forward to strike the primer.
: And yes, this modification is not only illegal, it's downright stupid.
I concur with your assessment. :-)
Lawrence....@att.com
of previously is offered by:
Lakeside Firearms
29 Kline Drive
Leonardtown, MD 20650
Phone 1-301-373-3339
This conversion, available for all Glock models, is reviewed
by Chris A. Choat in the September 1993 issue of Machine Gun News.
Choat writes:
"On the inside, the function of the conversion works much
the same as the factory Model 18 except that dimensions of
the two guns differ slightly..."
Lakeside Firearms offers a folding stock for the Glocks. Don't
forget putting a folding stock on a handgun requires ATF approval
and a $200 tax [since it is now a short barreled rifle].
--
--
Larry Cipriani, l.v.ci...@att.com or attmail!lcipriani
Rod Regier
[snip]
# Ummm...the round may well 'slide under' the extractor during normal feed,
# but the extractor *will* move outward to 'snap over' a round. Otherwise,
# it would be impossible to close the slide with a round (manually)
# inserted in the chamber. Note also that, with a round in the chamber,
# the extractor is pushed out slightly from it's empty-chamber rest point
# (kind of a poor-man's loaded-chamber indicator).
Just remember that it is hard on just about *any* pistol extractor
to drop the slide manually on a round dropped in the chamber.
Extractors are primarily designed to hook onto cartridges sliding
under it from the magazine.
This technique should be reserved for life-threatening emergencies
unless you like purchasing replacement extractors, or like having
your extractor break at the *worse* possible time.
--
Rod Regier, Software Development bus: (902)422-1973 x108
Dymaxion Research Ltd., 5515 Cogswell St., fax: (902)421-1267
Halifax, Nova Scotia, B3J 1R2 Canada Internet: r...@dymaxion.ns.ca
Lee DeRaud
#Lee DeRaud (der...@power.amasd.anatcp.rockwell.com) wrote:
#: Ummm...the round may well 'slide under' the extractor during normal feed,
#: but the extractor *will* move outward to 'snap over' a round. Otherwise,
#: it would be impossible to close the slide with a round (manually)
#Well Lee, it doesn't do this on my Glock 19... if you try and do this on
#mind, it bangs up the casing pretty well, and if it is forced the slide
#will go into battery. But it really doesn't like it.
Mine's the G21 (.45ACP)...loading single rounds works fine, every time.
I don't reload so I haven't examined the brass all that closely though.
I'll try one of the rental 17 or 19's but I seem to remember doing it
with them too. (Of course, now that someone's told me it won't work, it
probably won't :-))
#: inserted in the chamber. Note also that, with a round in the chamber,
#: the extractor is pushed out slightly from it's empty-chamber rest point
#: (kind of a poor-man's loaded-chamber indicator).
#When I read Peter Kasler's book and it said this, I thought it was quite
#cool that I could tell if the chamber was loaded, but then discovered
#mine doesn't really do this either! Those two seem to be related...
Again, works for me :-). It's not like it sticks out a *lot*, maybe .5mm,
but enough to *feel* the difference even if you don't really notice it at
first (eyeball) glance. YMMV
Lee
Lee DeRaud
#Frank Crary (fcr...@benji.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
[snip]
#: The only way I can think of to
#: make a 17 anything like fully automatic is to jam the firing
#: pin forward. That would disable the trigger: The gun would
#: start to fire as soon as you dropped the slide and would
#: continue to fire from an open bolt until the magazine was
#: empty.
#Actually, I think that jamming the firing pin forward would prevent
#the round from completing its upward travel while being held back be the
#extractor (the round slides under the extractor, the extractor doesn't
#snap over the round like on the AR-15).
#Not sure, but studying the action seems to indicate this.
Ummm...the round may well 'slide under' the extractor during normal feed,
but the extractor *will* move outward to 'snap over' a round. Otherwise,
it would be impossible to close the slide with a round (manually)
inserted in the chamber. Note also that, with a round in the chamber,
the extractor is pushed out slightly from it's empty-chamber rest point
(kind of a poor-man's loaded-chamber indicator).
As far as the protruding firing pin hanging up the empty casing during
ejection, I suspect the normal motion of the casing involves a fairly
vigorous rotation, pivoting on the extractor, which would move the primer
clear of the firing pin regardless of its position. (For that matter, I
don't know whether the firing pin has retracted yet at that point anyway:
it may not retract until the slide moves back forward.) Anybody know of a
very-slow-motion closeup video of the ejection port of a Glock or similar
semiauto?
And yes, this modification is not only illegal, it's downright stupid.
Lee
Dean Brunette
: Actually, I would love to know how Glock (or anyone else) has managed to
Hmm, looking at the mechanism, I think, given the proper tools, I could
do it by adding two parts and modifying one existing one. The modified
one is the "sear plate". The two new ones would be a selector (for full
or semi) and the other could be best described as a "disconnector."
Yup, seems pretty easy to me. However, I'm a mechanical engineer. :-)
Now, if I was a manufacturer of these things, and had a machine shop, I
might even try it. But since I am not, I wouldn't even risk the wrath
of the tobacco guys.
Bart Bobbitt
: Just remember that it is hard on just about *any* pistol extractor
: to drop the slide manually on a round dropped in the chamber.
: Extractors are primarily designed to hook onto cartridges sliding
: under it from the magazine.
Is the same true of rifle extractors?
BB
David Basiji
#Just remember that it is hard on just about *any* pistol extractor
#to drop the slide manually on a round dropped in the chamber.
#Extractors are primarily designed to hook onto cartridges sliding
#under it from the magazine.
#This technique should be reserved for life-threatening emergencies
#unless you like purchasing replacement extractors, or like having
#your extractor break at the *worse* possible time.
While I don't perform this act very often with my Glock, I'm hard
pressed to see how it could possibly damage that beefy extractor.
The extractor face is beveled, the claw can easily pivot enough to
get over the cartridge lip, and there's so much steel in the claw
that it'd be damn improbable that it would fatigue and break.
Now with an old Browning High Power (before they went to the new
style extractor) I could see how it could tweak that little spring steel
claw...
David Basiji
UW Bioengineering
Rod Regier
# r...@dymaxion.ns.ca (Rod Regier) writes:
# #Just remember that it is hard on just about *any* pistol extractor
# #to drop the slide manually on a round dropped in the chamber.
# #Extractors are primarily designed to hook onto cartridges sliding
# #under it from the magazine.
# #This technique should be reserved for life-threatening emergencies
# #unless you like purchasing replacement extractors, or like having
# #your extractor break at the *worse* possible time.
#
# While I don't perform this act very often with my Glock, I'm hard
# pressed to see how it could possibly damage that beefy extractor.
# The extractor face is beveled, the claw can easily pivot enough to
# get over the cartridge lip, and there's so much steel in the claw
# that it'd be damn improbable that it would fatigue and break.
#
# Now with an old Browning High Power (before they went to the new
# style extractor) I could see how it could tweak that little spring steel
# claw...
A fellow Glock owner (G17) had one of the first-generation extractors
break off part of the tip. I did not interrogate him on the
circumstances. The second-generation version of the extract
has the same amount and kind of material in the "hook" part.
The amount of material in the actual tip of the extractor
is small. This because it must fit into the extractor groove
of a cartridge case.
Even Glocks can break if you abuse them...