P08 Luger questions
Thomas
selling several P08 lugers. Most were in the $1600.00 range. I knew that
was way out of line, because the pieces were not all that impressive;
mismatched serials and so forth. I've done some research into the pistol,
but keep getting hung up on pricing. My question is simply, how much should
I expect to pay for a reasonably good "shooter"?
I am looking for one I can take to the range and enjoy. I don't want a
collector piece to sit and rot in a display case.
-------------------------------------------------------
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George
Relics". That might give you a better idea. There are other Lugers on the
site under different categories.
I shot one Luger ever;. It was a .30 cal and I found the toggle popping up
in my field of view distracting. I don't remember how it shot.
George in Las Vegas
browningh...@yahoo.com
I recommend you stay away from Lugers if you are a shooter and not a
collector. They are basically jam-a-matics. Even a Luger in good
shape can only be expected to shoot less than 50 rounds before it
starts to jam up, usually due to the burnt powder jamming up the very
close fitting bolt to frame tolerances.
The trigger pulls are terrible but can be made to break like glass if
you can find the very rare gunsmith that actually knows how to work on
Luger triggers, today they are as rare as hens teeth.
Lugers are extremely accurate once a good trigger job is done on them.
Now to answer your question. I you want a blaster then some of the re-
blued Russian capture guns can still be found for around $400 to
$500. They are not in the same class as original guns, even
mismatched original guns with original Luger bluing.
Original Lugers are a very good investment as their prices are
constantly sky-rocketing. A good collectors piece these days as you
have already seen is fast becoming to valuable to even shoot. Break a
matching part and the value to the gun is reduced probably by 2/3 rds.
I would also add that ammo for them is a problem as well. You can
forget shooting most factory ammo in them as most Lugers will jam up
with todays factory ammo. The Luger mechanism is a delicate balancing
act and they only work some of the time if you use original spec.
ammo.
If you do hand load use Alliant Unique powder (4.5 grains) with the
125 grain Lyman cast bullet with hard Red Rooster rifle lube. Seat
bullets to 1.180 length. This is another reason why so much of the
factory ammo does not work in the Luger as over all cartridge length
is critical in this gun. Yes 1.180 is a bit longer even than some of
the German military ammo but I have found this long length make the
Luger shoot a little more reliably. Now remember this long over all
length will not let you put a full 8 rounds in the magazine as the
magazine is slanted and you will only be able to get in 7 rounds. No
big deal.
If you want a blaster I suggest you act fast as even the Russian re-
blue capture guns are going up very fast in value. Expect in the near
future to pay a lot more than $400 or $500 dollars for one.
I also forgot to mention , make sure your magazine is in good shape as
that will screw up the reliability of Luger big time especially if the
locking notch on the magazine is worn.
Another point is to forget the idiotic gun writer blather about having
to shoot hot ammo out of a Luger. This is pure bull crap as shooting
hot loads will eventually even destroy the very robust Luger mechanism
and often crack the bolt or frame. It may times will often cause as
many jams as shooting too light a load in a Luger.
I have also found that bullets less than 121 grains are not long
enough or heavy enough to insure good Luger functioning.
sta...@prolynx.com
# While at the gun show (see my report in another post) I ran across a guy
# selling several P08 lugers. Most were in the $1600.00 range. I knew that
# was way out of line, because the pieces were not all that impressive;
# mismatched serials and so forth. I've done some research into the pistol,
# but keep getting hung up on pricing. My question is simply, how much should
# I expect to pay for a reasonably good "shooter"?
#
# I am looking for one I can take to the range and enjoy. I don't want a
# collector piece to sit and rot in a display case.
#
You're a few decades too late for cheap, shooter-grade Lugers. Even
the repros are going for 4 figures now. Demand exceeds supply. Very
occassionally somebody will import a small quantity from some
undisturbed cache overseas, these are going for $800 on up these days
for unmatched beaters. Get The Shotgun News regularly, line up a
local dealer for receiving, go to the shows and haunt the pawnshops.
You might find somebody's chromed war trophy for cheap, who knows?
Cheapest I've see lately was a parts gun, a pitted mess, $600.
Stan.
Ron Bloom
"Thomas" <bett...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fka736$dil$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# While at the gun show (see my report in another post) I ran across a guy
# selling several P08 lugers. Most were in the $1600.00 range. I knew
# that
# was way out of line, because the pieces were not all that impressive;
# mismatched serials and so forth. I've done some research into the pistol,
# but keep getting hung up on pricing. My question is simply, how much
# should
# I expect to pay for a reasonably good "shooter"?
#
# I am looking for one I can take to the range and enjoy. I don't want a
# collector piece to sit and rot in a display case.
$700 Guns are going through the roof. Good news for us who have them, bad
news for those who want to buy.
Dwight Gruber
# selling several P08 lugers. Most were in the $1600.00 range. I knew
that
# was way out of line, because the pieces were not all that impressive;
# mismatched serials and so forth. I've done some research into the pistol,
# but keep getting hung up on pricing. My question is simply, how much
should
# I expect to pay for a reasonably good "shooter"?
#
# I am looking for one I can take to the range and enjoy. I don't want a
# collector piece to sit and rot in a display case.
You should expect to pay between $500-$800 for a Luger to shoot which
functions reliably: depending on what model it actually is; its condition;
how much it matches (or doesn't); its caliber; and where you are
located--Luger prices have regional variation.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/
http://luger.gunboards.com/
--DwightG
Terry
# selling several P08 lugers. Most were in the $1600.00 range. I knew
# that
# was way out of line, because the pieces were not all that impressive;
# mismatched serials and so forth. I've done some research into the pistol,
# but keep getting hung up on pricing. My question is simply, how much
# should
# I expect to pay for a reasonably good "shooter"?
#
# I am looking for one I can take to the range and enjoy. I don't want a
# collector piece to sit and rot in a display case.
#
Well I paid $450 for a mismatched, import marked, Vopo gun. And then $45 to
put wooden grips on it. But I had looked for a long time and found nothing.
Will probably overpay for an unshaved, issue, Webly when I find one.
TerryS
Thomas
on looking, but I see I was right, in my assessment. When I do get one, I
will let you all know.
Thanks again
"Thomas" <bett...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fka736$dil$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
George
but isn't very pretty. The numbers don't match
George in Las VEgas
Dwight Gruber
news:fkdn8f$m5h$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
This response deserves examination in some detail.
# I recommend you stay away from Lugers if you are a shooter and not a
# collector. They are basically jam-a-matics. Even a Luger in good
# shape can only be expected to shoot less than 50 rounds before it
# starts to jam up,
A matching Luger in good condition can be expected to function reliably,
without stoppage, for thousands of rounds at a time. My own experience
includes shooting more than 1,000 rounds a month regularly for a couple of
years without failure. There are some considerations, mentioned below.
# usually due to the burnt powder jamming up the very
# close fitting bolt to frame tolerances.
This is a complete fiction. The shooting exampled above included only
sporadic cleaning. The shooters in the online Luger collecting community
have never mentioned burnt powder as a consideration in failure to function.
# The trigger pulls are terrible but can be made to break like glass if
# you can find the very rare gunsmith that actually knows how to work on
# Luger triggers, today they are as rare as hens teeth.
The Luger trigger pull is very long and springy. I would never describe it
as "terrible," although it does require gettng used to. Once one becomes
accustomed to it, it is a non-issue. It is true that trigger pull varies
from gun to gun, and it is possible to find the occasional Luger with a
truly impossible trigger pull. The gunsmith comment is entirely on-point.
# Lugers are extremely accurate once a good trigger job is done on them.
Lugers are xtraordinarily accurate regardless of "trigger job," or barrel
condition
# Now to answer your question. I you want a blaster then some of the re-
# blued Russian capture guns can still be found for around $400 to
# $500. They are not in the same class as original guns, even
# mismatched original guns with original Luger bluing.
Russian-capture guns cannot generally be had below $700. If "class" means
collectibility, ou may have a point. However, these guns were simply
stripped of their grips and stored in oil. When they were put back into
service they were dipped into a bluing chemical, re-gripped, and sent out.
Very often they are completely original, matching examples of their original
variation, only reblued.
"...mismatched original guns with original Luger bluing" is somewhat an
oxymoron. Mismatched is not original, and "original" bluing on a mismatched
gun is not the point. Very often mismatched guns are in themselves the
function failure problem.
# Original Lugers are a very good investment as their prices are
# constantly sky-rocketing. A good collectors piece these days as you
# have already seen is fast becoming to valuable to even shoot. Break a
# matching part and the value to the gun is reduced probably by 2/3 rds.
2/3rds is a bit of an overstatement, but breaking a matched part can reduce
a Luger's value by several hundred dollars or more, depending on the
variation and the part broken.
# I would also add that ammo for them is a problem as well. You can
# forget shooting most factory ammo in them as most Lugers will jam up
# with todays factory ammo. The Luger mechanism is a delicate balancing
# act and they only work some of the time if you use original spec.
# ammo.
The fundamental problem with modern 9mm Parabellum ammunition is, indeed,
overall length. The current maximum SAAMI oal for this cartridge is 29.69mm
(1.169 in.). This is the minumum oal for the original DWM spec. So, -all-
modern 9mm commercial ammunition is manufactured too short for the Luger. It
is necessary to perform tests to determine which commercial ammunition
functions properly with any particular Luger. The above mentioned
problem-free shooting experience includes a mixture of Winchester, Federal
American Eagle, Sellier & Bellot, and CCI Blazer, mostly 115gr FMJ (124gr
works equally well). In my experience, with this gun, Remington UMC and
Speer Lawman fails consistently.
# If you do hand load use Alliant Unique powder (4.5 grains) with the
# 125 grain Lyman cast bullet with hard Red Rooster rifle lube. Seat
# bullets to 1.180 length. This is another reason why so much of the
# factory ammo does not work in the Luger as over all cartridge length
# is critical in this gun. Yes 1.180 is a bit longer even than some of
# the German military ammo but I have found this long length make the
# Luger shoot a little more reliably. Now remember this long over all
# length will not let you put a full 8 rounds in the magazine as the
# magazine is slanted and you will only be able to get in 7 rounds. No
# big deal.
29.98mm (1.180 in) is too long for the Luger pistol, as is any ammunition
which is too long to sit properly in the magazine. It is worth knowing that
the Triple-K aftermarket magazine only holds seven rounds.
# If you want a blaster I suggest you act fast as even the Russian re-
# blue capture guns are going up very fast in value. Expect in the near
# future to pay a lot more than $400 or $500 dollars for one.
#
# I also forgot to mention , make sure your magazine is in good shape as
# that will screw up the reliability of Luger big time especially if the
# locking notch on the magazine is worn.
The magazine is -THE- single biggest factor in a Luger's failure to feed. It
is worthwhile to remember that original, folded-steel magazines are all
65-105 years old. Any magazine whose feed lips have been worn, bent, spread,
or otherwise damaged in the succeeding years will inhibit proper function.
So will magazines which are dented, rusted or dirty inside. If you are going
to shoot a Luger only use aftermarket magazines--Mec-Gar is by far the best.
Original "extruded" (actually drawn steel) magazines manufactured by
C.G.Haenel and marked e/122, fxo, or 2/1001 are also consistently reliable.
# Another point is to forget the idiotic gun writer blather about having
# to shoot hot ammo out of a Luger. This is pure bull crap as shooting
# hot loads will eventually even destroy the very robust Luger mechanism
# and often crack the bolt or frame. It may times will often cause as
# many jams as shooting too light a load in a Luger.
"Hot" loads are indeed a myth. Modern high-power +P, NATO, and subgun ammo
will indeed beat a Luger to death. The original DWM 9mm Parabellum
ammunition was designed with somewhat slower-burning powder, which
distributes the reaction impulse over a longer time and gives the rather
complicated action of the pistol time to operate.
# I have also found that bullets less than 121 grains are not long
# enough or heavy enough to insure good Luger functioning.
For in-depth information on the practical aspect of shooting Lugers, go to
www.lugerforum.com. This forum has an active and informative section on
shooting and reloading for Lugers.
--DwightG
browningh...@yahoo.com
This is a complete fiction. The shooting exampled above included only
sporadic cleaning. The shooters in the online Luger collecting
community
have never mentioned burnt powder as a consideration in failure to
function
Reply:
You must live in a different world, your the first guy I ever ran into
that made that claim. You can't be serious about sporadic cleaning.
Bunt powder is the primary cause of Luger jam ups when the Luger is in
good condition with no worn or improperly fitted parts. My own
testing over 30 years has proved this beyond a shadow of any doubt.
AS a matter of fact if you attempt to shoot sticky alox lube in cast
bullets in any Luger the gun will jam up in less than 7 rounds fired.
This test can easily be duplicated by just about anyone. This is
exactly why I was forced to go to a very hard rifle lube as made by
Red Rooster. Now the gun would just barely make it to 47 rounds
before jamming up, the same exact number of rounds that I get when
shooting jacketed bullets that of course have no lube on them.
Stripping the gun down on the range and then cleaning the bolt and
race ways then restores the gun to immediate working condition until
another 40 or so round are fired through it. This is absolutely
irrefutable proof beyond any shadow of a doubt of the powder jamming
up the gun.
Lugers are also very finicky on what powder is used in them. Too fast
or too slow a powder will also cause pure havoc in the delicately
balanced Luger mechanism.
I have shot and owned a variety of Lugers over the last 30 years and
never seen, used or heard of one that will go more than 50 rounds with
out jamming up. How this gun was ever adopted by so many nations
simply defies any logic or explanation.
Your comments on the trigger not being that bad is way off the mark.
I have used Lugers that had trigger pulls so bad they could not even
be shot accurately off of sand bags let alone in the free hand
position. The bad trigger pull is a hall mark of Luger pistols.
Your comments on matching guns is somewhat off as well as I have had
non-matching Lugers shoot more reliably than matching guns because of
the more loose fitting of the parts. This was only true if the
mismatched parts were properly fitted though. Mismatched guns with
parts not properly fitted will indeed cause a lot of problems.
Dwight wrote:
Russian-capture guns cannot generally be had below $700. If "class"
means
collectibility, ou may have a point.
Reply:
Again you are wrong as you are not taking into consideration the state
that they are being sold in. Just recently I saw in Ohio not 1 but
two of them go for $400 bucks. People here regard them as crude
reblued shooter grade guns only. Perhaps in other parts of the U.S.
were Luger mania reigns supreme they may pay the $700 if they now
regard the Russian capture guns as collectable in their own right.
Here in Ohio we certainly do not, at least not yet.
Your comments on Luger ammo certainly do not mirror my experiences as
I have had far more failures with the 115 grain bullets than with the
longer and heavier 121 and 124 grain pills. And seating them way out
to 1.180 has certainly improved reliability in the Lugers I have shot
as opposed to seating them deeper. I might ad that I have never had
any factory ammo that would get more than 25 rounds of fire without a
jam up or stove pipe, most do it on the first clip of ammo. This is
why I went to hand loads many, many years ago.
browningh...@yahoo.com
One other point I forgot to mention is the terrible sights found on
Lugers. Of course in all fairness this was normal for Military
pistols of that era. Back in the 50's it was common practice to put
better sights on them which of course destroyed the value of this
historical pistol.
I ran across one of these butchered pistols many years ago and go it
as expected for next to nothing because it had been butchered complete
with the usual grind em up blue job. The gun did have all matching
numbers which was another real shame that it was butchered . The
barrel was mint which meant I did not have to worry about a corrosive
damaged bore fouling out and giving me lousy accuracy. Don't kid
yourself corrosive damaged bores do not shoot as well as mint ones.
This is gun-smithing 101. The front sight had been widened with weld
and then reshaped into a post and then blued and the rear fixed sight
had been widened to match the front sight. The gun also had a first
class trigger job done on it.
Although I did not think much of this gun at first, I bought it
because I was looking for a shooter grade and believe it or not it
became one of my favorite pistols. With its now superior sights over
the original lousy military ones, its excellent trigger pull over the
terrible trigger pulls found on most Lugers and its mint barrel ( a
rarity on most military guns) the gun was one of the most accurate 9mm
guns I have ever owned. Now if it was just reliable it would be
perfect. Remember this is an all matching gun too so the myth that
all matching guns are reliable is again proved very false. This is
not the only example of matching guns I have shot that were not
reliable.
Now do not misunderstand this post I am not advocating anyone go out
and butcher historic Luger pistols , I am only relating the
acquisition of one that already had this done to it so as to prove
that 1. Matching guns are not all the reliable and 2. that with good
sights , a good trigger pull , and a mint bore Lugers can be a joy to
shoot and will be very accurate. Without all of the above
modifications the gun is best left as a wall hanger and a collectable
which will continue to escalate in value. But as a shooter, forget
it. The headaches you get with original guns unmodified guns are not
worth it.
Diogenes
wrote:
#
#
#One other point I forgot to mention is the terrible sights found on
#Lugers. Of course in all fairness this was normal for Military
#pistols of that era. Back in the 50's it was common practice to put
#better sights on them which of course destroyed the value of this
#historical pistol.
#
<snip>
About thirty years ago I was in a gunshop when a guy came in with a
Luger setup he wanted to sell. It was a cased set which included three
upper barrel assemblies in 4", 6", and 8". Each assembly was fitted
with adjustable sights and high-gloss blued. The workmanship was
excellent as was the fitted case which also included spare magazines,
etc.
I can't recall how much he wanted for it, but the gunshop owner wasn't
interested and I had no disposable income at the time. I realize now
that it was an ill-advised thing to do to all those nice Luger
components, but it was still a beautifully-executed job by a talented
gunsmith. I just wish I could have afforded to buy it at the time.
----
Diogenes (cdh...@hotmail.com)
The wars are long, the peace is frail
The madmen come again . . . .
larvatus
Disqualifying the Luger as a functional, battle-worthy sidearm is
nothing short of idiotic. With is production numbers adding up to over
a million, it belongs among the most successful military issues of all
times. Its official international adoption count is over three times
that of the M1911. It can be safely assumed that Swiss, German, Dutch,
Russian, Bulgarian, Portuguese, Brazilian, Bolivian, Chilean, and
Persian procurement agencies knew their business a bit better than
pseudonymous Usenet blowhards. The Luger was a premium benchmade
device competing against assembly-line appliances. Then, as now, cost
savings could only be trumped by overwhelming advantages in quality.
The fact of its selection over less costly candidates bespeaks the
supremacy of the Luger.
It is indeed critically important to maintain the original ammunition
dimensions, especially as regards the overall length and bullet
configuration. This need arises because the Luger magazine feed is
designed like most modern .22 rimfire autoloaders, with cartridges
located by riding the bullet nose on the forward slope inside the
magazine body. In a way, Georg Luger's finest handgun design has
suffered from the unmatched success and unchecked proliferation of his
greatest creation, the 9x19mm Parabellum ammunition. The tapered case
of the 9x19mm round makes it inherently more reliable in feeding than
the straight-walled .45 ACP. However, Lugers are both more accurate
and more reliable when chambered for the bottleneck 7.65x21mm
Parabellum cartridge, a.k.a the .30 Luger. One of the best Luger
variants for shooting is the simplified and strengthened Swiss Model
1906/29, with nearly mint specimens readily available for $1,750 with
a holster and spare magazine. The common variations of the more
traditional Model 1900/06 cost a little more. A well-worn Swiss .30
Luger pistol is likely to put 8 bullets well within 5 centimeters at
50 meters, from a machine rest. This is comparable to the results
obtainable with the best bullseye 1911 pistols.
The longer barrel and the grip safety of the Swiss guns make them a
bit more user-friendly than the P08. Generally speaking, in the Luger
design longer and heavier barrels contribute to greater reliability by
balancing out the snappier recoil impulse of modern ammunition. Unlike
the M1911 design, the 1900 and 1906 pattern grip safety of the Luger
works the same mechanism as the safety lever, which functions as a
sliding lock that secures its spring-loaded operation. With its point
shooting characteristics second only to the Colt SAA revolver, a
defensively minded pistolero might be tempted to leave the 1906 safety
lever off, relying on the grip safety alone to bring the gun into
action with a quick draw out of an open top belt holster. That is not
a practice that I would recommend. With the notable exception of the
occasional commercial Government Model Colt equipped with a Swartz
firing pin lock operated by the grip safety, prior to 1943 no handgun
manufacturer took the trouble to anticipate XXIst century handgun drop
safety standards.
Some people balk at the Nazi connection of the Luger. But its original
maker, Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (German Weapons and
Munitions Works), known as DWM, was a successor in interest to Ludwig
Loewe & Company, an arms maker founded in 1872. In addition to the
Luger, Loewe owned the production rights to some of the finest
contemporary firearms such as Mauser turnbolt rifles and Smith &
Wesson break-open revolvers. This provenance makes the Luger a Jewish
gun par excellence. My 1918 DWM P08 and 1917 DWM LP08 put me in touch
with my inner Ernst Kantorowicz, who, but for an accident of Semitic
birth, might have made an excellent Nazi.
--
Michael Zel...@post.harvard.edu
http://larvatus.livejournal.com/
On Dec 22, 4:01 am, "Dwight Gruber" <dwi...@pacifier.com> wrote:
> ...