effect of phosphor-bronze brushes on barrels
Lee F. X. Gaucher
phosphor-bronze brushes do (e.g. wear) to
carbon steel barrels? I've never noticed any
scratches introduced into the lands and grooves
from a good cleaning, but then I don't really
know how noticeable they would be either.
Lee Gaucher
gau...@neon.cchem.berkeley.edu
Nosy
<Does anyone have any idea how much damage
<phosphor-bronze brushes do (e.g. wear) to
<carbon steel barrels?
IMHO, "slight, but not much, depending on your
cleaning method". Note that the brush metal is
softer than the barrel; thus, the brush will
wear away much faster than the bore.
From personal observation and instruction, bore
wear is more likely to occur from the cleaning
rod; if it is not held centered in the bore,
it will rub on the rifling. This can be made worse
if one uses a soft rod (aluminium, for example) that
will pick up and retain abrasives such as grit.
Stainless steel brushes, IMHO, are not a Good
Thing for rifles, as the brush hardness may
exceed the bore thus leading to scratches.
Bart Bobbitt
barrels regularly, as I do. So, I don't think there's any harm in
using them. Those stainless steel brushes will damage a barrel, though.
BB
Clark Towle Gunsmith
In article <25bm66$d...@agate.berkeley.edu>, gau...@neon.cchem.berkeley.edu (Lee F. X. Gaucher) writes...
#Does anyone have any idea how much damage
#phosphor-bronze brushes do (e.g. wear) to
#carbon steel barrels? I've never noticed any
#scratches introduced into the lands and grooves
#from a good cleaning, but then I don't really
#know how noticeable they would be either.
Should cause no bore damage at all being as the brush bristles are softer
than the barrel steel. (This is assuming you don't have the brush coated with
sand or something) :-)
Steve Pickett
Nosy <ata...@nmsu.edu> wrote:
#<In article <25bm66$d...@agate.berkeley.edu> gau...@neon.cchem.berkeley.edu (Lee F. X. Gaucher) writes:
#
#<Does anyone have any idea how much damage
#<phosphor-bronze brushes do (e.g. wear) to
#<carbon steel barrels?
#
# IMHO, "slight, but not much, depending on your
# cleaning method". Note that the brush metal is
# softer than the barrel; thus, the brush will
# wear away much faster than the bore.
#
# From personal observation and instruction, bore
# wear is more likely to occur from the cleaning
# rod; if it is not held centered in the bore,
# it will rub on the rifling. This can be made worse
# if one uses a soft rod (aluminium, for example) that
# will pick up and retain abrasives such as grit.
#
# Stainless steel brushes, IMHO, are not a Good
# Thing for rifles, as the brush hardness may
# exceed the bore thus leading to scratches.
#
I think the bronze brushes are to be prefered over the stainless.
I tried an experiment to compare the effects of these two brush types that
really shows a big difference. I'd never go near a bore I expected any
long term accuracy from with a stainless brush.
I used to use a bronze brush to clean case necks. I could put the bronze
brush through several times with nothing more than a clean finish as a result.
I put a stainless brush through about 3 times and found it removed enough
metal that a bullet would pass through with minimal contact. This may not
qualify as a real test of what would happen to a bore but theres obviously
some serious forces at work that need to be considered before that brush
hits the bore of your favorite mechanical entertainment device. :-)
As for cleaning rods I would agree 100 percent with the above comments. If
you're concerned about maintaining a clean bore and keeping your rifles
accuracy then an investment in a good one piece rod with a bore guide is an
excellent idea. I have a habit of wiping down the cleaning rod often
when cleaning and it always comes back black. If you make a habit of dragging
that grit covered rod over a crown or the edge of the chamber you can expect
to pay the price in expanding groups in fairly short order. Something to
think about.
Take care,
-Steve
Stefan
#All the benchrest and highpower competitive shooters use 'em in their
#barrels regularly, as I do. So, I don't think there's any harm in
#using them. Those stainless steel brushes will damage a barrel, though.
Ever since the Merryl (sp?) Martin articles in Precision Shooting, some well
known highpower shooters no longer use a bare brush without wrapping a patch
around it.
**********************
* Is the line ready? *
**********************
Bart Bobbitt
: Ever since the Merryl (sp?) Martin articles in Precision Shooting, some well
: known highpower shooters no longer use a bare brush without wrapping a patch
: around it.
I read that article and know that some folks now (and some forever) are
putting a patch on the bore brush to clean their barrels. To each their
own.......
Some years ago, I did a comparison test between two NRA match rifles built
on the same make/model action; both with Hart barrels with the same bore,
groove, twist and length dimensions. One was cleaned by traditional bore
brush methods; the other never had a bronze brush in its barrel, just patches
on a jag. The same bore cleaner was used for both. Each barrel produced
groups at 600 yards of about 3 inches when new. Both rifles were shot in
the same manner across the course and regularly cleaned alike except one
had no bronze bore brush used. Both barrels lasted within 5% of the same
number of rounds for accuracy. Both barrels shot the same size groups at
test sessions every 600 or so rounds of barrel life. My conclusion after
this session was that bronze bore brushes don't hurt accuracy nor degrade
any element of barrel performance. Although the statistical confidence
level in this test may be lower than some folks might consider worthwhile,
it was high enough for me to not stop putting bronze bore brushes in my
barrels.
I'm waiting for the day to come when someone breaks some competitive
shooting discpline record by a wide margin with a barrel having left-hand
twist rifling. Then watch the custom barrel makers whose riflers are
set up for right-hand twists explain to customers that they really don't
need a lefty-twisted barrel to shoot the best score. It's the same as
when Tom Trienen won the 1000-yd. glass-eye match at the Nationals in 1970
and broke the old record by a comfortable margin; everybody had to have a
7mm Rem. Mag. Trouble was, consistantly accurate bullets weren't available
in that caliber for almost another 15 years.
BB
James Warren
: Does anyone have any idea how much damage
: phosphor-bronze brushes do (e.g. wear) to
: carbon steel barrels? I've never noticed any
: scratches introduced into the lands and grooves
: from a good cleaning, but then I don't really
: know how noticeable they would be either.
One pass of a "good quality" bronze brush will scratch your bore enough
that it can be seen using a bore scope. Repeated passes will do more
damage, of course. Whether this damage affects accuracy enough to worry
about is questionable. There is no doubt in my mind that if you use a
bronze brush on a lapped barrel, you will get more copper fouling than if
you did not.
Accuracy wise, with a hunting gun I doubt that you will see much difference.
With a benchrest rifle, having a very smooth bore, I think you will, but
probably only under near perfect conditions.
With the use of proper solvents you should not need to use a brush.
Toby Bradshaw
#Accuracy wise, with a hunting gun I doubt that you will see much difference.
#With a benchrest rifle, having a very smooth bore, I think you will, but
#probably only under near perfect conditions.
If this were true, winning benchrest shooters (not to be confused
with Merrill Martin, who is fun to read but doesn't win squat
in competitive BR) would not use brushes. All I've seen do use
a brush. Now, since some of these guys will buy up to *50* barrels
*per year* and have them fitted and chambered, just to find 1 or
2 to use in the Super Shoot, do you really think they would run a
brush into those 1 or 2 barrels if it were degrading accuracy?
BTW, if you run across one of these "barrels by the bushel" shooters,
like Tony Boyer or Lee Andrews, you can get a good deal on a very
slightly used barrel :)
#With the use of proper solvents you should not need to use a brush.
Could be. There's 25 minutes between relays, in which time you
must remove your gear from the firing line, reload for the next
match, clean your barrel and action, and get set up again. If
the brush is needed to get the barrel clean _in time_, use it.
Some barrels are still winning with <0.2000MOA aggregates with
#4000 shots through them. Those barrels have been cleaned >400
times with a brush. If it hurts, it ain't much.
-Toby Bradshaw
to...@u.washington.edu
Bart Bobbitt
: Ever since the Merryl (sp?) Martin articles in Precision Shooting, some well
: known highpower shooters no longer use a bare brush without wrapping a patch
: around it.
What does the patch do? The wire bristles poke through the patch and still
bear against the barrel. Probably not as many of them, though. Is the
objective to keep less wire bristles from touching the bore?
BB
Lee F. X. Gaucher
:: Does anyone have any idea how much damage
:: phosphor-bronze brushes do (e.g. wear) to
:: carbon steel barrels? I've never noticed any
:: scratches introduced into the lands and grooves
:: from a good cleaning, but then I don't really
:: know how noticeable they would be either.
:With the use of proper solvents you should not need to use a brush.
I have never heard anyone say this before. What sort of solvents
ought I to use? I assume that lead would occasionally need to be
removed through an electrochemical process.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Lee Gaucher NRA | My opinions.
gau...@neon.cchem.berkeley.edu | No one else's.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bart Bobbitt
: Whether this damage [bronze bore brushes] affects accuracy enough to worry
: about is questionable. There is no doubt in my mind that if you use a
: bronze brush on a lapped barrel, you will get more copper fouling than if
: you did not.
Some facts about folks using or recommending bore brushes in barrels:
* Top quality barrel makers have no problems with folks using bronze
bore brushes in their products.
* Winning and record setting highpower and benchrest competitors use
bronze bore brushes to keep their barrels shooting that well.
* All of the current USA Palma Team members use bronze bore brushes
in the .308 Win. chambered rifles. So do the members of other
country's teams.
* Never use a metal bore brush of any kind in an air gun. I think this
is the only real exception regarding their use in shootin' irons.
BB