M1A Needs hard primers in ammo?
John Kepler
hca...@netins.net (W Scholtes) wrote:
#Hi, all! I'm asking this on behalf of a buddy who is getting his M1A any
#time, now. He's heard that the gun really should have 'hard' primers, but
#that some commercial ammo is o.k. too (Fed. Premium). So what's the scoop?
#Is it marginally unsafe to use certain brands of primers or is this just
# some b.s.?
#
#Thanks in advance,
#Wayne
#
#
Well, my vote is that it's pretty much BS. I figure I've seen just about
every primer made used at one time or another. I've NEVER seen an M-14
"double" that didn't have mechanical problems.
For Match shooting, you'll find most guys using either Federal 210M Match
primers or Winchester WLR's. Both the Winchester and Federal 210M are
very "hot" primers, but the Winchester WLR is generally considered to be
a fairly "soft" primer as well. I have loaded and fired at least 3500 of
308 out of my 14, all with "soft" Winchester WLR primers without a
single problem! A "hot" primer can be a part of a very accurate load,
but you have to work the load up WITH the hotter primer.....don't take an
existing load and just jam a hotter primer in the case. You could get a
nasty surprise!
John
Tom Mosca
Dear John,
# I've NEVER seen an M-14 "double" that didn't have mechanical problems.
# For Match shooting, you'll find most guys using either Federal 210M
# Match primers or Winchester WLR's.
The problem is not doubling, but slam firing on single loading.
The M-14 and M1 Garand have no spring retarding forward motion of the
firing pin. When slamming home on a chambered, single loaded round,
the firing pin flies forward, and usually makes a tiny mark on the
primer. Federal 210M primers are very sensitive, and may fire from
this impact. Use of a single loading sled in the M1, and placing
singly loaded rounds in the magazine of the M-14, greatly reduces
the danger of slam firing. If ones' habit is to push singly loaded
rounds into the chamber of these guns and then release the bolt, the
Federal 210M primer should not be used.
Note also that Federal primers of all types should not be used
in Lee Autoprime priming tools, for the same reason. Lee published
the results of extensive research on this subject, and issued strong
warnings on the avoidance of Federal primers in Autoprime tools.
Take care, Tom
W Scholtes
Hi, all! I'm asking this on behalf of a buddy who is getting his M1A any
Thanks in advance,
Wayne
Telegrind
If fired brass indicates a firing pin problem, then he has an UNSAFE
chamber and should have a competent gunsmith check it out. That is the only
diagnosis possible given your description.
Attributing a defect to an unseen and unshot rifle is reprehensible,
irresponsible, and revealing.
Examine the weapon before you condemn it.
W Scholtes <hca...@netins.net> wrote in article
<57cmgk$m...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
# Hi, all! I'm asking this on behalf of a buddy who is getting his M1A any
# time, now. He's heard that the gun really should have 'hard' primers,
but
# that some commercial ammo is o.k. too (Fed. Premium). So what's the
scoop?
# Is it marginally unsafe to use certain brands of primers or is this just
# some b.s.?
#
# Thanks in advance,
# Wayne
#
#
#
Neil Dickey
Telegrind wrote:
# If fired brass indicates a firing pin problem, then he has an UNSAFE
# chamber and should have a competent gunsmith check it out. That is the only
# diagnosis possible given your description.
# Attributing a defect to an unseen and unshot rifle is reprehensible,
# irresponsible, and revealing.
# Examine the weapon before you condemn it.
#
# W Scholtes <hca...@netins.net> wrote in article
# <57cmgk$m...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
# # Hi, all! I'm asking this on behalf of a buddy who is getting his M1A any
# # time, now. He's heard that the gun really should have 'hard' primers,
# but
# # that some commercial ammo is o.k. too (Fed. Premium). So what's the
# scoop?
# # Is it marginally unsafe to use certain brands of primers or is this just
# # some b.s.?
# #
# # Thanks in advance,
# # Wayne
If Wayne's comments are what Telegrind is actually responding to, then I
believe
that he (Telegrind) has overstated the case.
M1 Garands and M14/M1As have a free-floating firing pin. Any such rifle
that
I have seen, and I serve as a range officer regularly at local DCM
shoots, will
put a tiny dent in the primer of a cartridge which is loaded singly, as
the bolt
is closed. Generally the friction involved in loading a cartridge out
of the
magazine so slows the bolt that cartridges loaded semi-automatically do
not show
the dent. In rare cases this can cause a slam-fire when chambering a
round
during the slow-fire strings of the National Match course of fire.
It has been found that some bench-rest primers have thinner cups and are
therefore
much more sensitive to this than are standard grade rifle primers. I
believe
that the Remington bench-rest primers are known to be offenders in this
regard.
My advice to Wayne's friend would be to avoid the use of ammunition
loaded with
bench-rest primers in his M1A, and *always* to be certain that the
muzzle of a
semi-auto is pointed in a safe direction when closing the action. I
know that
this is a rule which should always be observed, but in this case
"up-in-the-air"
is not a safe direction. It should be pointed directly at the backstop
or
otherwise at the ground. Experienced shooters I am acquainted with
point the
muzzle at the ground some three or four feet in front of the firing line
when
closing the bolt. No-one wants a stray round to get out of the range.
Best regards,
Neil Dickey
Charles Winters
W Scholtes wrote:
#
# Hi, all! I'm asking this on behalf of a buddy who is getting his M1A any
# that some commercial ammo is o.k. too (Fed. Premium). So what's the scoop?
# Is it marginally unsafe to use certain brands of primers or is this just
#
# Thanks in advance,
Dear Wayne: I started off loading only Remington 9-1/2 primers for my
M-1 Garand because it tends to leave a little mark on the primer of
chambered rounds. Remingtons have the hardest cup therefore more peace
of mind about slam fires, Federals have the softest. However, since I
have never had a slam fire, I no longer worry about these little dimples
and no load my favorite primers for general use, WLRs with no problems.
Primers are an interesting topic for discussion as each maker has a
little different temperature, force, hardness and diameter. - CW
pf...@ns.net
I would like to solicit further clarification on this from Clint, but
there's a bridge in the receivers of M1 Garands and M14s that is
supposed to prevent the firing pin fron touching the primer until the
bolt is completely in battery. This is accomplished via the L-shaped
end of the firing pin mating with the receiver bridge. The armorer
that assembled my M14NM and checked out my DCM M1 pointed out this
inherent safety feature, and warned me of the consequences if the
parts involved weren't properly fitted to each other in the system,
and of course, properly headspaced. I've competed monthly in DCM and
High Power matches at my range, single loading both my M1 and M14 for
the slow fire course, and have never seen any indentations in the
primers after letting the bolts slam home (muzzle safely down range)
on a hand-chambered round. I've also tried it at home with primed
brass only. I have used CCI, Remington, Winchester, and Federal
primers, although I haven't bought any Bench Rest primers yet.
Regardless of primer type, why is the firing pin hitting the primer
before it's supposed to? The indentation thing would cause me some bit
of concern, as John Garand and the Army manuals didn't expressly
forbid single loading of rounds, and I'm sure more than a few M1's and
M14's in Government use weren't textbook examples of fit and finish
during their service life. Neal's soft primer composition advise is
good, as well as proper primer seating depth, if the primer MUST
withstand a faint firing pin strike and be expected not to fire. But
at what point does that innocent indentation become an accidental
discharge? Many excellent autoloaders have free-floating firing pins,
without rebound springs, and have been around since the early 1900's.
Am I missing something here?
Darin R. Pfaff, SSgt, USAF
Range Officer, Lincoln, CA
Doug Bowser
I have never had a slam fire or observed one in an M1-M1A. I have had
slam fires in the AR-15. For this rifle I suggest CCI regular primers.
Doug Bowser
Ordinary_Guy
pf...@ns.net wrote:
#I would like to solicit further clarification on this from Clint, but
#there's a bridge in the receivers of M1 Garands and M14s that is
#supposed to prevent the firing pin fron touching the primer until the
#bolt is completely in battery. This is accomplished via the L-shaped
#end of the firing pin mating with the receiver bridge. The armorer
#that assembled my M14NM and checked out my DCM M1 pointed out this
#inherent safety feature, and warned me of the consequences if the
#parts involved weren't properly fitted to each other in the system,
#and of course, properly headspaced. I've competed monthly in DCM and
#High Power matches at my range, single loading both my M1 and M14 for
#the slow fire course, and have never seen any indentations in the
#primers after letting the bolts slam home (muzzle safely down range)
#on a hand-chambered round. I've also tried it at home with primed
#brass only. I have used CCI, Remington, Winchester, and Federal
#primers, although I haven't bought any Bench Rest primers yet.
#Regardless of primer type, why is the firing pin hitting the primer
#before it's supposed to? The indentation thing would cause me some bit
#of concern, as John Garand and the Army manuals didn't expressly
#forbid single loading of rounds, and I'm sure more than a few M1's and
#M14's in Government use weren't textbook examples of fit and finish
#during their service life. Neal's soft primer composition advise is
#good, as well as proper primer seating depth, if the primer MUST
#withstand a faint firing pin strike and be expected not to fire. But
#at what point does that innocent indentation become an accidental
#discharge? Many excellent autoloaders have free-floating firing pins,
#without rebound springs, and have been around since the early 1900's.
#Am I missing something here?
#Darin R. Pfaff, SSgt, USAF
#Range Officer, Lincoln, CA
Hello, Darin,
Until Clint is able to respond, let me take a crack at this question.
I'm referring to Jerry Kuhnhausen't Shop Manual, and quoting from same
(pg.33):
"Firing pin exposure during cycling can be caused by a stuck firing
pin and by insufficient intrusion. Although either condition can
indent primers, inertial firing pin jump remains the most common cause
of primer dimpling. The experts are still uncertain as to how firing
pins behave inertially in M1 type actions. The important questions
are: (a) does the firing pin simply jump forward as a result of energy
absorbed when the bolt slams closed at the end of the locking/counter
recoil phase? or (b) does the firing pin rebound forward offthe
extractor stem? High speed cutaway bolt photos appear to substantiate
the latter idea. Opinions also vary as to how firing pin inertia is
expended. One theory proposes that 50% of intertial energy is lost to
friction within the first 50% of firing pin travel. Intrusion
distance becomes extremely important if inertial travel begins at the
point that the firing pin rebounds off the extractor stem. Whether
the 50/50 ratio is realistic or not, one thing is absolutely certain:
the greater the distance between the firing pin and the primer as the
bolt closes and locks, the shallower the inertial dimpling.
"Summng up--Some amount of inertial firing pin jump and primer
dimpling is normal in M1 type actions but can be minimized by
selecting components and adjusting firing pin stop surfaces to
retracted position intrusion of at least .020", keeping basic
protrusion as close to minimum as possible, and seating primers well
below flush."
So when the bolt turns and locks, allowing the firing pin tail to
clear the receiver bridge, there is enough inertial energy in it to
allow it to move forward and dimple the primer. At the point that the
bolt is locked, the firing pin must of course be free to travel
forward as it does when it is struck on the tail by the hammer.
Note that there is no firing pin retracting spring in the M1 type
bolt. Even with a retracting spring, the firing pin in a M1911 type
pistol can be jarred forward enought to dimple or discharge a primer
(though it takes quite a fall onto a very hard surface, muzzle
directly down, to experience this).
If the dimpling were to fire the primer with the bolt locked, no
damage to the rifle should ensue--though one should have a care for
whatever is downrange. If the firing pin tail and receiver bridge are
not interacting properly and the dimpling occurs with the bolt not
quite locked, the ensuing out-of-battery discharge could be quite
damaging to the rifle & possibly to the shooter. Thus the imortance,
as you well state, of ensuring that the bolt, firing pin, and receiver
are properly dimensioned and functioning as designed.
Hope this helps.
Neil Dickey
pf...@ns.net wrote:
Thank you for sharing your experience with us. It sounds like you
are very much in a position to know what you are talking about!
[ ... Snip ... ]
# I've competed monthly in DCM and
# High Power matches at my range, single loading both my M1 and M14 for
# the slow fire course, and have never seen any indentations in the
# primers after letting the bolts slam home (muzzle safely down range)
# on a hand-chambered round. I've also tried it at home with primed
# brass only. I have used CCI, Remington, Winchester, and Federal
# primers, although I haven't bought any Bench Rest primers yet.
# Regardless of primer type, why is the firing pin hitting the primer
# before it's supposed to?
I don't know; I only know that it does in the examples I have seen.
Our club owns eight DCM M1 Garands which were issued to it by that
organization, and *all* of them do it -- even with military ammunition,
which probably doesn't have anything like a high primer or thin primer
cup. Slam-fires with M1 Garands are very rare, according to my
information and experience, but we had one about two months ago
at one of our DCM clinics. I do not know with certainty whether the
competitor was shooting military ammunition, commercial ammunition, or
handloads, but memory has it that he was using military ball.
The phenomenon of dents in single-loaded cartridges is so reliably
produced that we demonstrate it to clinic participants when every
relay comes to the line in order to impress upon them the need for
great care in loading the rifle. We simply take any convenient M1
and chamber a round. Voila.
The dents are also reliably produced in 7.62 Nato ammunition by new
or nearly-new M1As made by Springfield Armory of Geneseo, Illinois.
I have seen an ultra-match accurized M1 Garand, done by Springfield
Armory, that does it too.
# The indentation thing would cause me some bit
# of concern, as John Garand and the Army manuals didn't expressly
# forbid single loading of rounds, and I'm sure more than a few M1's and
# M14's in Government use weren't textbook examples of fit and finish
# during their service life.
We worry about it. Our remedy is to make certain that competitors
use good technique when single-loading their rifles during the slow-
fire strings. That includes the advice I gave in my earlier post to
point the muzzle at the ground some four feet in front of the line
until the bolt is home. The incidence of slam-fires in the .30-cal
rifles is very low, but there is a finite probability that it will
occur.
# Neal's soft primer composition advise is
# good, as well as proper primer seating depth, if the primer MUST
# withstand a faint firing pin strike and be expected not to fire.
For what it's worth: We have also seen some slam fires in AR-15s, but
these were with handloads, and almost certainly involved high primers.
When loading for semi-autos, it appears that primer pocket uniforming
is a must-do step.
# But
# at what point does that innocent indentation become an accidental
# discharge? Many excellent autoloaders have free-floating firing pins,
# without rebound springs, and have been around since the early 1900's.
# Am I missing something here?
I don't mean to say that the M1 Garand is an inherently dangerous rifle
to shoot as a single-loader, only that there are some hazards associated
with it and other semi-autos of similar design which should be taken
into account by the shooter when loading. I happen to believe that the
M1 Garand is one of the finest rifles ever made, and have never seen a
new competitor at one of our DCM clinics get up from shooting one who
wasn't grinning. One should just be more than usually careful in
loading single cartridges, and avoid ammunition known to be loaded
with very sensitive primers.
# Darin R. Pfaff, SSgt, USAF
# Range Officer, Lincoln, CA
Neil Dickey
Range Officer, Sycamore Sportsmen's Club
Captain, Sycamore Sportsmen's Club Rifle Team
DCM Instructor
Clint McKee
Hi Darin & Group!
Well, first let me say that, YES, M14/M1A's, M1 Garands, M1 Carbines &
M16/AR15's need hard to ignite military type primers (many other rifle
designs do also, but I'll limit this to the 4 rifles I know a little
about). It's what these rifles were designed to shoot, & the only ammo
issued! CCI & Winchester both make primers that are hard to ignite, mil
spec type primers, so call their engineers (not sales people) & tell
them that you have a military rifle with a free floating firing pin
that dents the primer on loading & ask *them* for the appropriate
primer. Hard mil spec primers, perfectly prepared & squeeky clean
primer pockets, primers set below the base of the case, SAAMI minimum
over-all cartridge length, case length, & headspace of case length (no,
you can't measure this one with a dial caliper, you must get a gauge) &
proper powders are what makes for a lifetime of safe shooting with gas
operated military rifles. Naturally, it only takes one mistake to blow
it all to hell. We see these "mistakes" far more than you, or the
customer, ever imgained. These rifles come in real small boxes.
There are actually *2* major safety designs inherent in the M14/M1A
(BTW, the Garand & Carbine have the same exact safety features) that
prevents out of battery firing, *not* to be confused with slam fire!
Out of battery can be a worst case scenario, depending on the bolt lock
time. If it opens/fails immediately, the event is less damaging to both
the rifle & shooter, though the rifle's receiver is often cracked at
the tail. Out of battery occurs when the bolt closes some amount, & the
shooter pulls the trigger, *precipitating* the iginition. If the bolt
is not *sufficiently* closed, it will open when the pressure exceeds
it's shear value. Real bad.
Slam fire occurs when the rifle fires *without* the shooter actuating
the trigger (not to be confused with "milking the triiger"), with the
bolt in/out/or partially in battery.
The first safety feature of these rifles is the hammer nose or spur &
the bolt notch at the rear of the bolt. Unless the bolt is properly
rotated in battery, the hammer spur will hit the back of the bolt in an
area that prevents the hammer from hitting the firing pin (not the bolt
notch area) & thusly cannot fire the round. The second is the receiver
firing pin bridge/firing pin interface, which again prevents the firing
pin from igniting the primer by blocking the pin from the hammer strike
unless the bolt is in proper battery.
Now, these rifle were designed to be *mag* fed, which significantly
reduces the inertial energy of the bolt, & hence, the firing pin,
against the primer. ANY ONE trained on these rifles were expressly
taught to LOAD FROM A MAGAZINE*. That J.C. Garand nor the Army never
said you could not, is like assuming that because your momma never told
you to stand in a bucket of salt water and drop in a 110V short wave
radio means that it is alright :) It is not o.k. to load these rifles
singly. All training focused on magazine use. I know you've heard
otherwise, but think about the fact that these rifles were designed to
be "mag fed". Enough said.
It is true that all these rifles do dent the primer on loading.
Sometimes you have to look real close, but they all do. Some more than
others, but they all do. Why, you ask? Well, the actual mechanism to
the nth degree vs time is somewhat questionable, but they do because
they all have a free floating firing pin, which picks up inertial
energy with the movement of the bolt & dent the primer on loading when
the bolt transfers the linear motion, abruptly, into rotaional motion,
while the firing pin just keeps going forward. That is the reality most
need to know. So, be sure you are using a hard to ignite primer, as the
rifle was designed for this. Darin, I'll give you a free tech
inspection if your primer is *not* dented by hand feeding & letting the
bolt fly home. I'll even through in a Turner Match sling, the finest NM
sling *ever* made. The *only* condition is that the rifle be in its
original design parameters.
So, back again to primers. Use only hard to ignite, military spec
primers. It's what J.C. Garand designed his rifle for! BTW, because it has
not "blown up yet" certain procedures are often sighted as a defense. Great.
Sometimes the rifle is forgiving. But, given the right recipy, it will fail.
Sometimes, catastrophically.
Just my free advice.
Clint McKee
Ownr
Fulton Armory
"We specialize *exclusively* in the M14/M1A, M1 Garand, M1 Carbine &
M16/AR15. We offer world class rifles, services, parts, accessories,
tools, gauges, books, etc. Send your street address & I'll send out
some stuff. Thanks for the interest!".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
#
Charles Winters
Clint McKee wrote:
#
# So, back again to primers. Use only hard to ignite, military spec
# primers. It's what J.C. Garand designed his rifle for! BTW, because it has
# not "blown up yet" certain procedures are often sighted as a defense. Great.
# Sometimes the rifle is forgiving. But, given the right recipy, it will fail.
# Sometimes, catastrophically.
#
Dear Clint: I have seen the little dent and concur with the desire to use
hard-to-ignite primers. Question is, where in the heck does one get mil spec
primers? I have been using ordinary WLRs for several years now in my 30-06 M-1 with
no problem. Am I asking for trouble? Are any of the brand name off the shelf
commercial primer good enough in the hard-to-ingnite dept? Also, if the bolt is all
the way into battery, what harm to the rifle would be done if one had an AD from a
slam fire due to an overly sensitive primer, assuming the rifle was pointed
downrange?
FYI, my M-1903 US rifle in stock military configuration, made by Remington 8/43, does
not strike the primer very hard. It has once or twice failed to ingite a Remington
9-1/2 primer, but has had no troubles with Winchesters and Federals. I'm not sure if
this is normal or not. - CW
Neil Dickey
Clint McKee wroten regarding M1/M1A-type rifles:
# Now, these rifle were designed to be *mag* fed, which significantly
# reduces the inertial energy of the bolt, & hence, the firing pin,
# against the primer. ANY ONE trained on these rifles were expressly
# taught to LOAD FROM A MAGAZINE*. That J.C. Garand nor the Army never
# said you could not, is like assuming that because your momma never told
# you to stand in a bucket of salt water and drop in a 110V short wave
# radio means that it is alright :) It is not o.k. to load these rifles
# singly. All training focused on magazine use. I know you've heard
# otherwise, but think about the fact that these rifles were designed to
# be "mag fed". Enough said.
Thanks for your analysis of the phenomenon of firing-pin indentation
of cartridges in these rifles, but your paragraph, cited above, raises
some questions.
First, it seems odd to me that a rifle designed to be used in battle
would be built so that it could be loaded singly, but that it would
be potentially very dangerous to the shooter to do so. I would expect
that a battle rifle would be designed as an extremely flexible weapon.
Also, I remember conversations with my father and other veterans of
WWII and Korea, in which they revealed knowledge of how to load the
rifle single-shot. In my father's case he must have been trained
that way, because he only used the M1 Garand in basic training. He
was a radio operator and Amtrak driver, and used the M1 Carbine
exclusively in the Pacific. (He doesn't have much to say about the
carbine that is good.)
Second, it has been the case since the M1 Garand, and its successors,
have been fired in National Match competition that the course of fire
has required competitors to load 30 of the 50 rounds expended in a
match as single-loaded rounds. If it were all that unsafe, wouldn't
that have been recognized long before now, and the rules changed? At
Camp Perry, where a single inadvertant discharge gets a competitor
shown to the gate, I would think that the safety people would have
pounced on this long ago.
I recognize that M1/M1A-type rifles were intended to be loaded from
magazines, but in battle -- as in competition -- one isn't always
given the option. I think you may have overstated the case.
Best regards,
Neil Dickey
Mark Thomen
In <32A316...@geol.niu.edu>, Neil Dickey <ne...@geol.niu.edu> writes:
#Clint McKee wroten regarding M1/M1A-type rifles:
#(Snipped)
#
#
#Thanks for your analysis of the phenomenon of firing-pin indentation
#of cartridges in these rifles, but your paragraph, cited above, raises
#some questions.
#
#(Snipped)
#I recognize that M1/M1A-type rifles were intended to be loaded from
#magazines, but in battle -- as in competition -- one isn't always
#given the option. I think you may have overstated the case.
Slamfires generally result from MORE than a single problem, and even
when those problems occur together there is no guarantee there would
be a slamfire. The likelihood of milspec ammo having high or crushed
primers is so small as to be discountable. In addition, milspec primer
sensitivity and cup hardness is higher than standard commercial ammo
because of the potentially rough treatment the ammo might receive,
and because of the free-floating firing pins used on the M-1, M-14, and
M-16.
So while you may get primer indents from single-loading it is VERY
unlikely you will get an inadvertent discharge. No, it is VERY, VERY
unlikely with military spec ammo.
See my other append referring to the CCI #34 and #41 primers which are
designed to milspec sensitivity standards.
Mark
Clint McKee
Hi Charles & Group!
Winchester & CCI both make a mil spec, hard to ingnite primer. You may
already be using them :) Check with the manufacturer, explain the rifle
you have, that it is a military rifle w/a free floating firing which
dents the primer on loading. They will tell you which one you need. Be
sure to talk to an engineer, not a sales person.
The problem with slam fire is that it does *not* always occur when the
bolt is in full battery. If it is not in sufficient battery, she will
unlock &, well, lookout.
Hope this helps.
Clint
Fulton Armory
P.S.: Maybe those Remington primers are also acceptable, maybe even the
best! Again, talk to the manufacturers engineers.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----
In <57tgk5$r...@xring.cs.umd.edu> Charles Winters <ch...@blarg.net>
writes:
#
#Clint McKee wrote:
##
## So, back again to primers. Use only hard to ignite, military spec
## primers. It's what J.C. Garand designed his rifle for! BTW, because
it has
## not "blown up yet" certain procedures are often sighted as a
defense. Great.
## Sometimes the rifle is forgiving. But, given the right recipy, it
will fail.
## Sometimes, catastrophically.
##
#
#Dear Clint: I have seen the little dent and concur with the desire to
use
#hard-to-ignite primers. Question is, where in the heck does one get
mil spec
#primers? I have been using ordinary WLRs for several years now in my
30-06 M-1 with no problem. Am I asking for trouble? Are any of the
brand name off the shelf >commercial primer good enough in the
hard-to-ingnite dept? Also, if the bolt is all the way into battery,
what harm to the rifle would be done if one had an AD from a slam fire
due to an overly sensitive primer, assuming the rifle was pointed
#downrange?
#FYI, my M-1903 US rifle in stock military configuration, made by
jschm...@aol.com
In article <57mvd7$g...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, pf...@ns.net writes:
#The indentation thing would cause me some bit
#of concern, as John Garand and the Army manuals didn't expressly
#forbid single loading of rounds, and I'm sure more than a few M1's and
#M14's in Government use weren't textbook examples of fit and finish
#during their service life. Neal's soft primer composition advise is
#good, as well as proper primer seating depth, if the primer MUST
#withstand a faint firing pin strike and be expected not to fire. But
#at what point does that innocent indentation become an accidental
#discharge? Many excellent autoloaders have free-floating firing pins,
#without rebound springs, and have been around since the early 1900's.
#Am I missing something here?
I am not quite sure what this string is about but let me say that I had
two SLAM FIRES last year. The gun I am using is a new Springfield Super
National match .308. Let me tell you folks, it scared the hell out of me.I
blamed it on me making the mistake of not seating the primer deep enough.I
use the Winchester Large Rifle primers. With seeing what you have been
talking about, it gives me thought to question the primer and not the
depth, although that could have been the cause. If anyone out there can
give his thoughts with a similiar problem or try to solve mine, I would
personally like to know. E-M if you would please.
Jim
Clint McKee
Hi Neil & Group!
That my points raise questions was *exactly* the intent. Thank you for understanding
the post, &, your kind demeanor & constructive reply.
The M1 Garand (as well as the M1 Carbine, M14 & M16), *was* designed to be clip (mag)
fed. Not fed by hand. That's what made them good rifles. While *every* other country
was peddling there bolt guns, the awesome Garand was driven by the marskman. That the
Garand (or other mil rifles of this century) *can* be hand fed, is not signifcant to
this issue. If your life depended on one putting 1 single round into the Garand, then
to hell with the possibility of a slam fire. However, it's a rare situation where one
would prefer to hand feed the Garand a single round, rather than slamming in an *8*
round clip. There are always anecdotal exceptions that sometimes may offer a reason
to forget the purpose of things. However, one cannot have it both ways. The bolt
velocities are either designed *designed* to strip a cartridge out of a clip/mag, or
they are not. If they are, then the bolt velocities must be higher than if they are
not. So, these clip/mag fed weapons *were* designed to be fed by such clips/mags, &
that one can shove a single round into the chamber is *not* the intended use, nor the
design intended.
The "knowledge" required to singly load these rifles are easily gotten by simply
looking into the breach. Presto, shove one in & let the bolt fly home. I'll bet a
doughnut to a dollar that your father was trained to load the Garand via an 8 round
clip, & the M1 Carbine via a magazine (15 or 30 round). If, for some reason, his life
was to be saved by *only* loading one round, & not a clip/magazine, then I'm sure he
knew how to do that. We all do. In fact, as you point out, it's often "taught".
As to the charge that many range masters, including at leg matches, require the
shooter to hand feed a single round into these rifles, well, that is fact. Is it
right? Well, that's always a different question. IMHO, it should *not* be allowed.
So, have I over stated the case. Absolutely! It's my job to enlighten you & others to
the *fact*, that while rare, catastrophic failures do occur, & people & equipment get
hurt. The events you do not see. 99.9% of these failures are due to reloads & hand
feeding rounds. Also, REMEMBER, that historically the National Matches issued
military manufactured ammo to all the shooters (hard primers, properly sized
cartridge, case & headspace of case). Today, many reload for these matches. Such
events will increase. It is my hope that you will not join the small group who have
had catastrophic failures.
Hope you find some value in this opposing view.
Clint McKee
Fulton Armory
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In <32A316...@geol.niu.edu> Neil Dickey <ne...@geol.niu.edu> writes:
#
#Clint McKee wroten regarding M1/M1A-type rifles:
#
## Now, these rifle were designed to be *mag* fed, which significantly
## reduces the inertial energy of the bolt, & hence, the firing pin,
## against the primer. ANY ONE trained on these rifles were expressly
## taught to LOAD FROM A MAGAZINE*. That J.C. Garand nor the Army never
## said you could not, is like assuming that because your momma never told
## you to stand in a bucket of salt water and drop in a 110V short wave
## radio means that it is alright :) It is not o.k. to load these rifles
## singly. All training focused on magazine use. I know you've heard
## otherwise, but think about the fact that these rifles were designed to
## be "mag fed". Enough said.
#
#Thanks for your analysis of the phenomenon of firing-pin indentation
#of cartridges in these rifles, but your paragraph, cited above, raises
#some questions.
#
#First, it seems odd to me that a rifle designed to be used in battle
#would be built so that it could be loaded singly, but that it would
#be potentially very dangerous to the shooter to do so. I would expect
#that a battle rifle would be designed as an extremely flexible weapon.
#Also, I remember conversations with my father and other veterans of
#WWII and Korea, in which they revealed knowledge of how to load the
#rifle single-shot. In my father's case he must have been trained
#that way, because he only used the M1 Garand in basic training. He
#was a radio operator and Amtrak driver, and used the M1 Carbine
#exclusively in the Pacific. (He doesn't have much to say about the
#carbine that is good.)
#
#Second, it has been the case since the M1 Garand, and its successors,
#have been fired in National Match competition that the course of fire
#has required competitors to load 30 of the 50 rounds expended in a
#match as single-loaded rounds. If it were all that unsafe, wouldn't
#that have been recognized long before now, and the rules changed? At
#Camp Perry, where a single inadvertant discharge gets a competitor
#shown to the gate, I would think that the safety people would have
#pounced on this long ago.
#
#I recognize that M1/M1A-type rifles were intended to be loaded from
#magazines, but in battle -- as in competition -- one isn't always
#given the option. I think you may have overstated the case.
#
#Best regards,
#
#Neil Dickey
#
Mike Reagan
Jim Wrote:
"I am not quite sure what this string is about but let me say that I had
two SLAM FIRES last year. The gun I am using is a new Springfield Super
National match .308. Let me tell you folks, it scared the hell out of me.I
blamed it on me making the mistake of not seating the primer deep enough.I
use the Winchester Large Rifle primers. With seeing what you have been
talking about, it gives me thought to question the primer and not the
depth, although that could have been the cause."
I definitely don't claim to be an expert here but here are my two cents worth. I think
that there could actually be several causes of a "slam fire" (i.e primer seating
depth and/or dirty primer cups, soft primer, etc.) One thing I havn't heard in this thread
is the possibility of shooting error being the cause of a "slam fire".
When I first started shooting our clubs DCM garands I experienced an in-battery "slam
fire". (Jim is right, it scares the hell out of you.) At the time I was using a DCM issued
rifle and ammo. After normal firing of a round the next one immediately went off when
the bolt closed. I took the rifle back to the club house to inform the person on duty
about the "slam fire". He told me that most likely I had "milked" the trigger. As I
remember what he said was that if your finger remains in the same position after firing,
the recoil movement of the rifle can be enough to reset the sear (rifle moves finger
does not). As the rifle comes down out of recoil for the next shot your finger can
inadvertently fire the next round. Truth or myth? I don't know. Maybe someone with
significant military hi-power experience can verify.
Personally, given the chance of using thicker cup'd mil style primers in my garand I will.
I find it interesting that this soft primer arguement is raised periodically with various
surplus semi-auto rifles with floating firing pins but the actual number of verified
incidents I've read seems low. I don't know if this "milking" phenomenon is true but I think
sometimes we have the tendancy to blame the hardware more than looking to ourshelves for the
source of the problem.
Mike
Tom E.
wcm...@ix.netcom.com (Clint McKee) wrote:
#Hi Neil & Group!
#That my points raise questions was *exactly* the intent. Thank you for understanding
#the post, &, your kind demeanor & constructive reply.
#The M1 Garand (as well as the M1 Carbine, M14 & M16), *was* designed to be clip (mag)
#fed. Not fed by hand.
What we were told in basic (we used M-14's in 1968) was to keep the
firing pin clean and free of any grease or dirt or the rifle could go
off when loading. Hey, if the drill seargent says so, YOU WILL LISTEN,
TROOP.
Later I read the same before I bought my M-1. Also, if you just have
to fire one round in an M-1, I seem to recall that there are clips
designed for this. Me? I just push the eject button and eject the clip
and any remaining rounds if I don't feel like firing anymore.
Hand feed an M-1? Not to be a wise guy, but why? I've had one "M-1
thumb" and that's one too many for me. That old rifle is a tough
beastie and should be treated with lots of respect.
Regards,
Tom
-----------------------------------------------------
"...Our word "imbecile,' which today describes the weak of mind,
appears to be derived from the Gothic Latin word 'imbelle.' It was
applied to the scorned mass of peasantry who were weak because
they were unarmed." "The Great Reckoning" by J.D. Davidson
sigst...@aol.com
<<For what it's worth: We have also seen some slam fires in AR-15s, but
these were with handloads, and almost certainly involved high primers.
When loading for semi-autos, it appears that primer pocket uniforming
is a must-do step.>>
I've seen this with both Colt and Bushmaster AR-15's with military ammo.
Worse story I ever heard was a guy that dropped the bolt on a full mag in
an
SKS in his house. It emptied all 10 rounds full-auto through his floor,
wall, and
last couple through the roof.
Neil Dickey
Mark Thomen wrote:
# In <32A316...@geol.niu.edu>, Neil Dickey <ne...@geol.niu.edu> writes:
# Slamfires generally result from MORE than a single problem, and even
# when those problems occur together there is no guarantee there would
# be a slamfire. The likelihood of milspec ammo having high or crushed
# primers is so small as to be discountable. In addition, milspec primer
# sensitivity and cup hardness is higher than standard commercial ammo
# because of the potentially rough treatment the ammo might receive,
# and because of the free-floating firing pins used on the M-1, M-14, and
# M-16.
Do you mean that milspec primers have *lower* sensitivity than
commercial
ones?
Some possibilities we haven't discussed include broken or dirty firing
pins, trash on the bolt face, attempting to chamber a round with a live
round left in the chamber, etc. The slam-fires we have been interested
in are those which appear to result from design features of the rifle,
and which may possibly occur in weapons which are in excellent repair
using ammunition which appears to be of good quality.
# So while you may get primer indents from single-loading it is VERY
# unlikely you will get an inadvertent discharge. No, it is VERY, VERY
# unlikely with military spec ammo.
As I indicated in another post, we had one at a DCM clinic about two
months ago. The rifle was a DCM piece owned by the club, and the
ammunition
was military issue -- the de-linked machine-gun ammunition that the
DCM sells.
# See my other append referring to the CCI #34 and #41 primers which are
# designed to milspec sensitivity standards.
Thanks for the tip!
Best regards,
Neil Dickey
Ordinary_Guy
wcm...@ix.netcom.com (Clint McKee) wrote:
#Now, these rifle were designed to be *mag* fed, which significantly
#reduces the inertial energy of the bolt, & hence, the firing pin,
#against the primer. ANY ONE trained on these rifles were expressly
#taught to LOAD FROM A MAGAZINE*. That J.C. Garand nor the Army never
#said you could not, is like assuming that because your momma never told
#you to stand in a bucket of salt water and drop in a 110V short wave
#radio means that it is alright :) It is not o.k. to load these rifles
#singly. All training focused on magazine use. I know you've heard
#otherwise, but think about the fact that these rifles were designed to
#be "mag fed". Enough said.
Hi, Clint, et.al.,
You're right. But, the Army did have a drill for single loading the
M1 Rifle; for those who wonder what the original drill for single
loading was, I just went to my July 20, 1940 copy of FM23-5 and found
the following:
1. To single load the M1 Rifle, insert the cartridge into the
chamber, <<firmly seating it with the thumb>>. Then, using the thumb,
push the follower down and allow the bolt to go about 25% of the way
(you're holdiing the op rod handle back with the blade of your palm)
forward, then remove the thumb and allow the bolt to close.
2. <<NEVER>> put a single cartridge into the magazine and allow the
bolt to close!
We were taught the crossed rounds in the clip trick to load two for
the two and eight sequence during matches. On the other hand, at the
Small Arms Firing School: Rifle this summer, the drill for the M16 was
"drop it into the ejection port and release the bolt"!
I'll just use the SLED in my M1s, a magazine in M14-type rifles, and
leave the poodle shooters to the Animal Control officers.
Regards,
Walt
Garand Collectors Association member
Gary M. Jeter
In your post you don't specify whether your slam/milking incident
occurred during the slow fire or rapid fire phase of the match.
Generally, a "milking" type accidental discharge will occur during the
rapid fire phase. I have experimented with a technique which involves
the shooter pulling the trigger on one shot, and holding the trigger in
a fully rearward position until recoil has run its course, and the
sights return to proper alignment on the target. The shooter then
"milks" the trigger by only releasing enough tension on the trigger to
allow the the trigger mechanism to return to a ready position to allow
the mechanism to be activated to fire the next shot. When properly
applied, the shooter will hear an audible click as the trigger is
allowed to move slightly forward to the ready position.
As you know, the M14, M1, and M1A rifles have a two-stage trigger. The
first shot of a rapid fire string requires the shooter to take up both
stages of the trigger. However, when milking the trigger, the shooter
effectively bypasses the first stage, and by releasing only enough
tension on the trigger to return it to a ready position, the shooter can
concentrate on a clean break of the second stage alone. Many competent
shooters are able to effectively apply this technique. But, this
technique has the major detraction of the fact that if the shooter fails
to concentrate 200% on holding the trigger back hard between shots, the
trigger may creep forward during recoil, without the shooter realizing
that the trigger mechanism has returned to a ready position. This
creates a condition where very little pressure is required to activate
the trigger mechanism. Even slight error will result in a round being
fired during recoil of the preceding shot.
The only harm I have seen come from this sort of "mishap" is a shot
that ends up far outside the aiming black, resulting in a poor score for
that target. In the rapid fire phase of the National Match Course, the
shooter is wound into the sling so tightly that a "milking error" does
not run the risk of a bullet being fired into an unsafe area. I have
personally experienced "milking mishaps" on several occasions. Some of
my best targets have come from milking the trigger, making the practice
very seductive. But, because I have lost points in important matches
when the technique failed, I have resigned myself to the discipline of
always allowing the trigger to return fully forward before firing the
next shot.
High power competition, when stripped to its bare essentials is simply
an execise in precise mental discipline, and a little bit of physical
discipline. For me, milking the trigger was a psychological crutch. I
believe that the chief merit of service rifle competition is the fact
that it requires the competitors to practice disciplined use of a form
of rifle which is not ideal for target shooting. You will agree that
the results we obtain can be astonishing in light of the handicap which
we accept by virtue of our crude hardware! Perfect scores can be
obtained WITHOUT milking the trigger. If you believe this is so, then
you must learn the discipline to acheive this. Do not handicap yourself
by learning a habit which could jeopardize your success.
--
Gary M. Jeter
Virginia State Rifle Team
http://www.potomac.net/users/gmj/
_____________________________________________________________
Clint McKee
Hi Mike & Group!
"Milking" the trigger is extremely common, especially when the trigger
is a fine match trigger, when the shooter is not real experienced with
gas guns in the .30 cal. class & when the shooter is real comfortable.
Here's the classic scenario:
Shooting from the bench, real relaxed, take up the first stage on your
match trigger & then "pop" the trigger. She goes bang, & then recoils
into your shoulder, pulling the trigger *away* from your finger &
rechambering a fresh round & cocking the hammer, she's hot again (no
boltgun here). For every action there is an opposite reaction so, then
the rifle jumps *forward* pushing the trigger forward into your finger
& she fires again. Boom, boom, she goes. This is *not* a slam fire.
Now, why only 2 booms? Why not 3, 4, 10? Because the second boom scares
the bejesus out of you & you hold on tightly to the rifle. Trigger is
secured in the rearward positon during the 2nd recoil phase, & presto,
the event ends.
This is a *very* common event for those new to match triggers & gas
guns in the highpower realm (.30 cal.).
So, *always* hold the trigger firmly to the rear while riding through
the recoil phase. When the recoil phase is over, let off the trigger &
continue.
However, one *must* always be mindful of safety. Hammer fall is a
*dangerous* condition & once diagnosed, the rifle must *not* be fired.
Here's a check that *everyone* should *always* do *before* loading!
Pull the op rod to the rear to cock the hammer & let her fly home. Pull
the trigger (you'll hear the hammer clank), & *keep* holding it firmly
to the rear while, at the same time, you pull the op rod to the rear
again to cock the hammer & let 'er fly home. Then, release the trigger
& then pull the trigger to fire, & you should hear the hammer clank. If
you *DO NOT* hear the hammer fire, *NO NOT FIRE THE RIFLE*,. It is
unsafe to fire.
This test is for all M14/M1A's, M1 Garands, M1 Carbines & M16/AR15's,
as well as many, many other gas operated rifles.
Hope this helps.
Clint McKee
Owner
Fulton Armory
"We specialize *exclusively* in the M1 Garand, M14/M1A, M1 carbine & M16/AR15
rifles. We offer world class rifles, shop services, parts, accessories, tools,
gauges, books, etc. Send your street address & I'll send out some stuff. Thanks
for the interest! :)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Reagan
Wow, thanks for the response!
Gary Wrote:
#
# "In your post you don't specify whether your slam/milking incident
# occurred during the slow fire or rapid fire phase of the match."
Mike - neither, I was just practicing, but I guess you could consider it
slow fire.
# "Perfect scores can be obtained WITHOUT milking the trigger. If you
# believe this is so, then you must learn the discipline to acheive this.
# Do not handicap yourself by learning a habit which could jeopardize your
# success."
Mike - Thanks for the concern and advise. I understand the need to base my
shooting on solid technique and to resist crutches. The subject incident was
an isolated event when I first started shooting garands. I don't currently
compete but am a recreational shooter.
The point of my original post was that the discussion I had heard on hard primers
all centered around hardware and didn't consider the possiblity of shooter error
in the "slam fire".
Another reply from John indicates what really happened to me may have been a
double.
Thanks,
Mike
axh...@aol.com
Hopefully I haven't missed too much on this topic. I like to shoot into
the scoring rings.
I have been very concerned with slamfires since I and my friends have shot
thousands of rounds of reloads during competition. There have been a few
problems along the way, but generally we have had good results. When
reloading match ammo, and for that matter all of my rifle rounds, great
care is taken to avoid ineffective and defective loads. In all of my
rounds there have only been 2 slamfires that I could easily spot as high
primers. All my loads go through continuous checks for this and other
problems. Every round gets put into the cartrige gauge. If you get
slamfires without high primers you have a problem in the bolt and firing
pin. That's what a good match rifle gunsmith will quickly remedy. Not all
'smiths are qualified to handle the M-1 and M-14 match rifles we use.
Through all of my shooting I have found that the rifles are not as simple
as they look. Be sure to understand your rifle and take it to the tuneup
man before the problem gets away from you.
I have only used CCI and Winchester primers. They are generally accepted
as the sturdier primers while maybe not the highest quality. I am
satisfied with them but can't compare to the other brands. It is commonly
known in the circle of shooters I have been with that the high primer will
get you, and happens to all of us sooner or later. SO if your rifle is
checked out ok by a qualified 'smith, look to your reloads.
Julius Chang
In article <585fsk$e...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
"Gary M. Jeter" <g...@potomac.net> wrote:
#In your post you don't specify whether your slam/milking incident
#occurred during the slow fire or rapid fire phase of the match.
#Generally, a "milking" type accidental discharge will occur during the
#rapid fire phase. I have experimented with a technique which involves
#the shooter pulling the trigger on one shot, and holding the trigger in
#a fully rearward position until recoil has run its course, and the
#sights return to proper alignment on the target. The shooter then
#"milks" the trigger by only releasing enough tension on the trigger to
#allow the the trigger mechanism to return to a ready position to allow
#the mechanism to be activated to fire the next shot. When properly
#applied, the shooter will hear an audible click as the trigger is
#allowed to move slightly forward to the ready position.
A time-compressed version of this is generally taught
for defensive handgunning.
Your trigger finger releases the trigger just enough
to reset the action (the audible click). If you
release the trigger fully, your finger has a tendency
to fly off of the trigger. Loss of contact with the
trigger may eventually result in trigger jerk. It is
also a very slow way to shoot.
-Julius
Willie
In article <586oh6$h...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, wcm...@ix.netcom.com says...
#
#Hi Mike & Group!
#
#"Milking" the trigger is extremely common, especially when the trigger
#is a fine match trigger, when the shooter is not real experienced with
#gas guns in the .30 cal. class & when the shooter is real comfortable.
#Here's the classic scenario:
#
#Shooting from the bench, real relaxed, take up the first stage on your
#match trigger & then "pop" the trigger. She goes bang, & then recoils
#into your shoulder, pulling the trigger *away* from your finger &
#rechambering a fresh round & cocking the hammer, she's hot again (no
#boltgun here). For every action there is an opposite reaction so, then
#the rifle jumps *forward* pushing the trigger forward into your finger
#& she fires again. Boom, boom, she goes. This is *not* a slam fire.
#Now, why only 2 booms? Why not 3, 4, 10? Because the second boom
scares
#the bejesus out of you & you hold on tightly to the rifle.
ROTFL!!!
I believe it was Bob Munden (American Shooter eppisode...) that
demonstrated
this equal and opposite reaction by firing a standard 1911 pistol at
darn
near full-auto! It was a *sight*, but DO NOT try this at home, boys
and
girls!
BTW, has anyone else noticed some of the other extremely STUPID stunts
they
pull on this show? ...Like shooting at a golf ball, *three feet* in
front
of you on the GROUND, with a 12 gauge???
Not exactly the best way to show John Q Public how seriously we take
firearms safety....
(OK, back from the tangent now...)
Clint,
If I might add.... also a good reason to keep your finger OFF of the
trigger, when racking a pump shotgun! Yes?
Regards,
**Willie**
Charles Winters
Ordinary_Guy wrote:
#
# wcm...@ix.netcom.com (Clint McKee) wrote:
#
# #Now, these rifle were designed to be *mag* fed, which significantly
# #reduces the inertial energy of the bolt, & hence, the firing pin,
# #against the primer. ANY ONE trained on these rifles were expressly
# #taught to LOAD FROM A MAGAZINE*. That J.C. Garand nor the Army never
# #said you could not, is like assuming that because your momma never told
# #you to stand in a bucket of salt water and drop in a 110V short wave
# #radio means that it is alright :) It is not o.k. to load these rifles
# #singly. All training focused on magazine use. I know you've heard
# #otherwise, but think about the fact that these rifles were designed to
# #be "mag fed". Enough said.
#
# Hi, Clint, et.al.,
#
# You're right. But, the Army did have a drill for single loading the
# M1 Rifle; for those who wonder what the original drill for single
# loading was, I just went to my July 20, 1940 copy of FM23-5 and found
# the following:
#
# 1. To single load the M1 Rifle, insert the cartridge into the
# chamber, <<firmly seating it with the thumb>>. Then, using the thumb,
# push the follower down and allow the bolt to go about 25% of the way
# (you're holdiing the op rod handle back with the blade of your palm)
# forward, then remove the thumb and allow the bolt to close.
#
# 2. <<NEVER>> put a single cartridge into the magazine and allow the
# bolt to close!
#
# We were taught the crossed rounds in the clip trick to load two for
# the two and eight sequence during matches. On the other hand, at the
# Small Arms Firing School: Rifle this summer, the drill for the M16 was
#
# "drop it into the ejection port and release the bolt"!
#
# I'll just use the SLED in my M1s, a magazine in M14-type rifles, and
# leave the poodle shooters to the Animal Control officers.
#
# Regards,
#
# Walt
# Garand Collectors Association member
Dear Walt: Speaking of poodle shooters, there was an incident on local TV here in WA
a few days ago where two bison were being transported in a horse trailer. The
trailer jacknifed in the snow and turned on its side. The buffs were unhurt (very
tough animals) but mad as hell. The State Patrol, county animal control and the
driver were at a loss as to how to get the buffs out of the trailer on its side and
into another trailer so they could continue their journey to their new owner (they
were breeding stock).
The State Patrol was prepared to destroy the animals rather than risk them getting
loose. The patrolman was armed with an AR-15 type service rifle. The thought
occured to me what a messy job that would have been, 20 or 30 rounds to the head and
neck, two magnificent animals in prolonged agony. Fortunately, the driver of the
replacement transporter was very resourceful and able to coax the animals directly
from one trailer to the other. All ended well, but in this case the animal control
person was loaded for poodles not bison. - CW
Mark Thomen
In <58f4nv$7...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Charles Winters <ch...@blarg.net> writes:
#(Snipped)
#The State Patrol was prepared to destroy the animals rather than risk them getting
#loose. The patrolman was armed with an AR-15 type service rifle. The thought
#occured to me what a messy job that would have been, 20 or 30 rounds to the head and
#neck, two magnificent animals in prolonged agony. Fortunately, the driver of the
#replacement transporter was very resourceful and able to coax the animals directly
#from one trailer to the other. All ended well, but in this case the animal control
#person was loaded for poodles not bison. - CW
Considered cattle are slaughtered with a .22 short I'd say the .223 would do a
real fine job. But you've got to shoot them in the right place...
Mark
Michael Orwan
By design all rounds chambered in an M1 will receive a firing pin strike
(which may or may not give a heavy indentation on the primer). The
reason for this is that the primer acts as the firing pin stop surface
on every chambered round. If the receiver bridge is in spec. along with
bolt wear and firing pin wear this is of little concern. Where it is a
problem is in heavily worn rifles that no longer have proper timing for
the firing pin retraction sequence which occurs as the bolt closes.
M1 rifle have inertial firing pins that are prevented from contacting
the primer too early during bolt lock up by camming against the receiver
bridge.
Hope this all helps.
Mike Orwan
Gunsmith
Clint McKee
Hi Mike & Group!
The M1A (and Garand) *does* need hard primers. As Mike points out, the M1A &
M1 Garand have free floating firing pins that *do* dent the primer on loading.
In fact, the early Garands had much heavier firing pins (called round or solid
firing pins) that were recalled because they absorbed/released too much
inertial energy causing too great a "dent" on some primers, thusly
parcipitating a slamfire. Although the M1 Carbine also had a solid/round
firing pin, such problems were not encountered since the action was so short &
the bolt mass/velocity so reduced, the inertial energy was greatly reduced.
Hope this helps.
Clint
Owner
Fulton Armory
"We specialize *exclusively* in the M1 Carbine, M1 Garand, M14/M1A &
M16/AR15. We offer world class rifles, services, parts, accessories,
tools, gauges, books, etc. Send your street address for some stuff.
Thanks for the interest!"
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In <32C07E...@mindspring.com> Michael Orwan <mik...@mindspring.com>
writes:
#
#By design all rounds chambered in an M1 will receive a firing pin
strike
#(which may or may not give a heavy indentation on the primer). The
#reason for this is that the primer acts as the firing pin stop surface
#on every chambered round. If the receiver bridge is in spec. along
with
#bolt wear and firing pin wear this is of little concern. Where it is a
#problem is in heavily worn rifles that no longer have proper timing
for
#the firing pin retraction sequence which occurs as the bolt closes.
#M1 rifle have inertial firing pins that are prevented from contacting
#the primer too early during bolt lock up by camming against the
receiver
#bridge.
#
#Hope this all helps.
#
#Mike Orwan
#Gunsmith
#