AMMO: .224 BOZ - New Pistol Round
David Buss
by Civil Defence Supply (British Government). It is called the called the
..224 BOZ. In its standard form it uses a 10mm case that has been necked
down to take a standard 5.56mm bullet. It has been designed to accept all
bullet weights from 30gr. to 60gr. including armor piercing and tracer. In
simpler terms, put a 55 gr. FMJ .223 Remington bullet on a necked down 10mm
case and you end up with a 2000+ fps muzzle velocity. The weapon and bullet
combination has impressive statistics with very low recoil. This round
apppears to be in competition with the FN 5.7mm, but can handle the heavier
bullet.
The article stated that this was developed for use against bad guys that
are wearing body armor. For example, the infamous North Hollywood shootout.
This includes the capability of penetrating vests, kevlar helmets and some
light armor. While the article stated that this round is intended to be
issued to military and police only, I see this round having greater
usefulness for the bad guys then the good guys. But that is my opinion.
Initial development of developing the round was done on a Colt 1911A1 and a
Glock 20. The functioning of this round caused damage to the 1911 in the
breech face and the locking lugs. After initial work was done perfecting
the cartridge ballistics, another team developed a gun from a standard 1911
frame style (SV Infinity) with a Bar-Sto barrel.
Civil Defence Supply also had a project to adapt this round in a H&K MP5
chambered in .40S&W. According to the article, this project has been
sucessful and resulted in a weapon that has low recoil, little (if any)
muzzle climb and even more impressive ballistics.
If you want additional information on this round, including development of
the weapons and the round, I would refer you to the Guns & Ammo article.
David Buss
. . . . . . . . . .
Info on moderated group rec.guns is at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
AShap288
Good information. I have read that article very closely. I think that it merits
a look as a new medium weight varminter in a carbine, perhaps in a ruger pc4.
I think that it would be ideal. Go for it Wildcatters!!!! Go get it....
Rob
David Buss wrote:
# ,If you want additional information on this round, including development of
# the weapons and the round, I would refer you to the Guns & Ammo article.
#
# David Buss
dire...@firearmstactical.com
feel the .22 Hornet is a superior defense cartridge.
--
Shawn Dodson, Director
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
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Andrew Walls
Rob skrev i meldingen <6vl3f1$2...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#actually, you would be better served by referring to CDS's website.......
Which is where?
Andrew Walls
Near the Arctic Circle
Norway
Rob
formidable defense round. That is the buig deal, not the ballistics themselves,
but the fact that they are being acheived in standard duty sized handguns with
little more than the recoil of a 9mm. You find me a Glock that'll fire a .22
hornet and I'll buy it.
dire...@firearmstactical.com wrote:
# The cartridge is essentially a .22 Hornet. I don't know of many people who
# feel the .22 Hornet is a superior defense cartridge.
#
drag...@pacbell.net
#
#Good information. I have read that article very closely. I think that it merits
#a look as a new medium weight varminter in a carbine, perhaps in a ruger pc4.
#I think that it would be ideal. Go for it Wildcatters!!!! Go get it....
I looked at it and kinda laughed. About 20 years ago a fellow .41 Mag
owner and I were discussing wildcats based on the .41 Magnum cartridge.
That's when we hit on the idea of the .17-41 Fraser Magnum. A .17 Bee
bullet in the .41 Magnum case. We figured that either the velocity of
such a round would either (a)suck the target inside out or (b)produce
the first plasma projectile. :-)
//BillC
L D O
..223 and AP much more effectively, and weighs probably no more.
AShap288 wrote:
> ...
Glenn E. Meyer
bye
Rob
L D O wrote:
# The round makes little sense to me. A short CAR will handle full power
# ..223 and AP much more effectively, and weighs probably no more.
#
# AShap288 wrote:
# >
HUH? How can you say that a CAR wieghs the same or about the same or close to
the same as a Glock ??A pistol round coming close to the .223 in an AR, but
being used on a platform the size and weight of a Glock is certainly worth
looking at.
Zickzack7
Mmmmmh! Interesting. I was totally under
the impression that the UK had gone metrice some years ago. They seem to be
smarter than most of us.
That being the case, how come they would introduce a cartridge having inch
nomenclature?
Regards,
Klaus
Director, Firearms Tactical Institute
BOZ. .224 BOZ is a cartridge that shoots a .22 bullet about 400 fps faster than a
.22 LR rifle.
One of the claims being made is its ability to defeat body armor. The volume of
tissue crushed by a non-expanding .22 caliber bullet, at 2200 fps, after
penetrating armor is less than 9mm FMJ. .224 BOZ is being promoted as being
similar in performance to an M-16 rifle bullet and it is not. If LEOs know they're
going up against bad guys known to wear body armor, they are not going to choose
.224 BOZ. They are going to choose shorty AR-15s/M-16s, AUGs or HK-53s in .223
Remington.
CDS is having a difficult time selling this cartridge/weapon system. Same for the
FN P-90 5.7mm SS190 bullet cartridge. Neither fills a legitimate niche. Both
manufacturers are are trying to sell these concepts as handgun and/or light
submachinegun (SMG) cartridges. In a handgun role, with expanding bullets, the
wound trauma produced is less than a 9mm 147 grain JHP. In a light SMG role, it is
far less efficient than .223 Remington in producing wound trauma. Tactical
operators are not going to waste their time with a mediocre cartridge in an SMG
platform when they already have excellent full-power weapons already.
The .22 Hornet can be loaded with any of the bullets .224 BOZ uses, and the .22
Hornet can propel these bullets faster. Yet, you don't see any clamor for SMG
platforms in .22 Hornet do you? That right there should set-off the BS alarm.
How about a Desert Eagle in .22 Hornet? Too big a gun for everyday carry? One of
the reasons why .224 BOZ hasn't gained any law enforcement acceptance as a patrol
cartridge is the fact that 20 percent of officers killed with handguns are killed
with their own handguns. (I don't have any figures for officers who are shot with
their own guns, but are saved by their armor.) .224 BOZ would probably be hard
pressed to penetrate Level IIIA soft armor. The N. Hollywood robbers were wearing
Level III armor which stops .223 Remington, so if .224 BOZ were available to patrol
officers at the scene it wouldn't have penetrated the robbers' armor.
It would seem to make more sense to develop a discarding sabot projectile for
current handgun ammunition that could penetrate Level II armor. The concept
projectile would be .22 caliber or less, made of steel or similar hard metal, with
6 piano wire drag fins that deploy after armor penetration (like the fins on a
Snake-Eye bomb) to increase its cross sectional area, produce greater wound trauma
(like a broadhead hunting arrow), and not overpenetrate. Something like this could
be carried in a spare magazine, if it were possible to develop.
We find it interesting that no wound ballistics information is presented on the CDS
web site to back-up any of their exaggerated claims. Both .224 BOZ and P-90 are
meant to create "Oh-Ah!" appeal among people who are preoccupied with velocity and
kinetic energy.
Anyone who hasn't read the G&A article, but who is interested in learning more
about .224 BOZ can visit the CDS web site at:
<http://www.civil-defence.org/products/ballistics/boz224/boz224.html>.
Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
John Briggs
#What's CDS's url ?
Try this:
--
John Briggs (j...@bbz.net Phoenix, Arizona, USA)
"Quemadmoeum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the Younger" (ca. 4 BC-65 AD)
David Buss
# actually, you would be better served by referring to CDS's website.......
I did not know CDS had a web site and so did not refer to it. My apologies.
The website is <http://www.civil-defense.org/english/index.html>.
Note that the website (based solely on my cursory examination) lacks
information such as problems that occured when developing the initial
platform and how those problems were overcome in a later pistol design. As
well as dimensions of the brass, overall cartridge length, powders used,
ballistics charts, etc. Almost everything you might want to know if you
wanted to build a pistol in that caliber of your own.
David Buss
JS158jhp
Gee, sounds like they just re-invented the 223.
Midgaard
# being used on a platform the size and weight of a Glock is certainly worth
# looking at.
I got a kick outta that article on the .224 BOZ where it said for LEO and
Military only then they gave the specs of the case so anyone willing to go
thru the hassle could duplicate it ;-)
Robert Schommer
# The N. Hollywood robbers were wearing
# Level III armor which stops .223 Remington, so if .224 BOZ were available
to patrol
# officers at the scene it wouldn't have penetrated the robbers' armor.
<snip>
I find this difficult to believe. The N. Hollywood robbers were wearing
custom tailored full-length suits of SOFT body armor, which I understood
was level IIIA rated, not Level III. There's a big difference - IIIA will
stop most pistol rounds and level III stops most rifle rounds (non-AP).
Level III (and IV) armor typically requires rigid plates of some sort,
which they might have had over a small part of their body (such as a trauma
plate).
The .224 Boz (and most FMJ rounds above 1500 fps) would have penetrated the
robbers vests and stopped the Hollywood mess sooner, but Shawn is correct
in that street cops will not carry ammunition that will penetrate their own
armor.
-Rob
s...@my-dejanews.com
a picture of a Bobby holding a MP-5 with a 224 BOZ round sticking out of the
extra mag. If you look closely at the picture you can see that they jammed
that round in the mag, which is a 9mm as is the gun, and the end of the
projectile is actually protruding beyond the leading edge of the magazine! I
really doubt that would work!
In article <6vjfkl$r...@xring.cs.umd.edu>,
"David Buss" <bus...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> ...
--
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Rob
JS158jhp wrote:
# Gee, sounds like they just re-invented the 223.
And, more importantly, they put it into a pistol. Which I think is the point
that some are missing.
Director, Firearms Tactical Institute
I find this difficult to believe. The N. Hollywood robbers were wearing
custom tailored full-length suits of SOFT body armor, which I understood
was level IIIA rated, not Level III. There's a big difference - IIIA will
stop most pistol rounds and level III stops most rifle rounds (non-AP).
Level III (and IV) armor typically requires rigid plates of some sort,
which they might have had over a small part of their body (such as a trauma
plate).
The .224 Boz (and most FMJ rounds above 1500 fps) would have penetrated the
robbers vests and stopped the Hollywood mess sooner, but Shawn is correct
in that street cops will not carry ammunition that will penetrate their own
armor.>>>>>The armor vests worn by the N. Hollywood robbers was Level III.
I've performed testing of body armor. I've seen bullets propelled at 2000 fps
stopped by level IIA armor. Soft armor worn on a human body gives better
protection than soft armor demonstrates in testing. The reason is because the
human body acts as a better shock absorber than the stiff roma-plastilina clay
used in testing. The shock absorbing effects of the body reduces the stress on
the armor, and this makes the armor more effective. The clay backing tests the
MINIMUM level of soft armor protection. With a human body backing soft armor
usually provides better protection than the minimum rating.
Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
ld
if it will go through 10mm armor then i assume it to be FMJ
.22 holes must be very well placed to be lethal and even then it may
take several minutes
the kick must be something fierce too
'never take a knife to a gunfight'
"dont rely on a pistol when a sholder mounted battle rifle is around "
drag...@pacbell.net wrote:
> ...
Mr Buu
the .223 did stop them,well one killed himself i think...i cant remember.
Rob
with any new guns.
God forbid someone come up with something that might be a little novel.
Some of us really do COLLECT firearms, not just use that as a Politically
Correct word for "amassing an Arsenal for when
society falls and the revolution comes."
While it is true that their is no "need" for the .224 BOZ, the fact that you
don't "need" certain things is exactly the argument that
ANTI-GUNNERS use all the time, so before you anyone goes condemning a new
twist, ask yourself:
WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON?
Kyle Heeter
# Gee, sounds like they just re-invented the 223.
No, they didn't. They put something with near-.223 performance into a
handgun platform that doesn't require a totally new weapon.
============
k...@u.washington.edu ... http://weber.u.washington.edu/~kqh
"There's no need to believe in either side, or any side.
There is no cause. There is only yourself.
The belief is in your own precision."
-- Lucifer, 3 Days of the Condor
geoff beneze
# I got a kick outta that article on the .224 BOZ where it said for LEO and
# Military only then they gave the specs of the case so anyone willing to go
# thru the hassle could duplicate it ;-)
Hummmmmmmm, Don't suppose that might have had a purpose? I'm going to
have one, one way or another, the round appeals to me!
--
geoff beneze (geo...@beast-enterprises.com)
NRA Life member
******************************************
BEAST Enterprises/Arizona Shooting Sports
http://www.beast-enterprises.com
BEAST Gunsmithing -- Target Stands
The unofficial Dillon Tech Page
******************************************
michael brady
# So why don;'t we all just buy an AR, a 1911, and a remington 870 and not bother
# with any new guns. God forbid someone come up with something that might be a
# little novel.
#
# Some of us really do COLLECT firearms, not just use that as a Politically
# Correct word for "amassing an Arsenal for when society falls and the revolution
# comes."
# While it is true that their is no "need" for the .224 BOZ, the fact that you
# don't "need" certain things is exactly the argument that ANTI-GUNNERS use all the
# time, so before you anyone goes condemning a new twist, ask yourself:
#
# WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON?
On the other hand, maybe we don't "need" luridly detailed accounts of speciality
handguns and ammunition - which will never be offered to the public - designed
exclusively to punch through hard and soft body armor ("police officers and
soldiers") and lightly armored vehicles ("politicians and celebrities"). Perhaps
we should be asking whose side the purveyors of the product are on?
dire...@firearmstactical.com
Kyle Heeter <k...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> No, they didn't. They put something with near-.223 performance into a
# handgun platform that doesn't require a totally new weapon.
The .224 BOZ can propel a 50 grain at 2000-2200 fps. The .223 Remington
propels a 55 grain bullet at 3100 fps. There is a world of difference in
performance between .223 Remington and .224 BOZ.
.224 BOZ at the muzzle is similar to a .223 Remington bullet at 400 yards.
Neither incapacitate very well. .224 BOZ FMJ does not yaw, break in two at the
cannelure and fragment like M16 bullets, and its lightweight expanding bullets
do not penetrate deeply enough to reach vitals. A gruesome, shallow wound to
the torso does not make for a reliable fight stopping injury.
In an anti-armor role, .224 BOZ produces far less wound trauma than a typical
FMJ M-16 bullet. At close-quarters distance, the M-16 bullet (M193 and M855)
will penetrate the armor and then yaw and disintegrate in the torso to
produce a huge permanent cavity. Whereas the .224 BOZ apparently can zip
right through the first armor panel of a vest (Level IIA, II, IIIA? The vest
shown in the CDS web site cannot be a level III rated vest because level III
armor stops M-16 bullets.), completely penetrate what appears to be a 10-12
inch block of ordnance gelatin, and zip right through the second armor panel,
see: <http://www.civil-defence.org/products/ballistics/boz224/ap4.html>. It
doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the bullet is crushing a
very tiny permanent cavity with virtually no temporary cavity.
The flaw with .224 BOZ is that the manufacturer is trying to invent a mission
for it. This cartridge is ill-suited for that intended mission.
Yeah, it's nifty that they are able to do this with a handgun. I'm not
attacking the concept. I'm criticizing its contrived suitability for the
intended mission.
In a SWAT/anti-terrorist role, .224 BOZ is aptly regarded as .224 BFD.
In a sport shooting/varmint hunting role, .224 BOZ is an interesting concept
indeed.
--
Shawn Dodson, Director
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
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Rich Zuchowski
something like the .30 carbine to be used in that AMT handgun? Curious
to know if the twist rate of the barrel would stabilize the bullet. I
know sabboted bullets aren't all that accurate, but might be fun to
play with.
Rich
In <6vvmdh$3...@xring.cs.umd.edu> geo...@beast-enterprises.com (geoff
beneze) writes:
> ...
(Midgaard) wrote:
> ...
LEO and
> ...
to go
> ...
http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
Bruce Brodnax
michael brady <ml...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
#
#On the other hand, maybe we don't "need" luridly detailed accounts of
speciality
#handguns and ammunition - which will never be offered to the public - designed
#exclusively to punch through hard and soft body armor ("police officers and
#soldiers") and lightly armored vehicles ("politicians and celebrities").
Perhaps
#we should be asking whose side the purveyors of the product are on?
No need: they are one their own side, 'natch (ie - in it for the money!)
Trotting out the specs is just their way of priming the pump: this round
would be legal as I understand the BATF ruling (see their web site) as it
is .22 caliber, provided it was not loaded with a defined "AP" bullet
(fmj would be o.k.)
Ergo, you get a "target" round suitable for collectors & technophiles &
expand the market beyond the "LEO only" purpose of the AP round that was
discussed in the article. More sales, more profits, more stories in future
issues of the various gun rags, everyone is happy...
Or maybe I'm just too suspicious... ;-)
Ciao,
Bruce Brodnax
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who
approaches that jewel." - Patrick Henry
bear
If I were to compare this round to an existing (or maybe pre-existing)
cartridge it would be the 22 Remington Jet. This was a revolver
cartridge made by necking down a .357 magnum to .22 caliber. With 40
grain bullets it was supposed to generate velocities of 2460 fps with
the factory loading out of an 8" barrel. Most people who
chronographed the gun found the velocities to only be slighly over
2000 fps. Loadings were about 13 grains of 2400.
That really wasn't too bad though for the purpose the gun was
designed, allowing handgunners to hunt varmints out to 100 yards (this
was in pre Contender days).
It probably wouldn't make a bad defensive cartridge either as
compared to other pistol cartridges.
The gun and cartridge are both out of production today. But who knows
maybe the Boz is a better way of arriving at the same solution.
Bear
BorgPiper
bw...@webworldinc.com
wrote:
> ...
There many people using .224 saboted bullets out of 7.62x25
guns like the CZ52.
> ...
bear
#something like the .30 carbine to be used in that AMT handgun? Curious
#to know if the twist rate of the barrel would stabilize the bullet. I
#know sabboted bullets aren't all that accurate, but might be fun to
#play with.
Don't know about a saboted .30 carbine cartridge, but there was a
cartridge made by necking the .30 carbine to .22. The MMJ 7.5; aka:
22 Spitfire or 5.7mm Johnson. When fired from an M1 Carbine it pushed
a 40 grain .22 cal bullet at 3000 fps, 50 grains got about 2700 -
2800. Obviously this gun required a different barrel, and so would a
version for the AMT. But that's pretty impressive performance IMO
from a relatively small case, and in a rifle that isn't known for its
ability to tolerate high pressures.
Bear
Skeet38
#If I were to compare this round to an existing (or maybe pre-existing)
#cartridge it would be the 22 Remington Jet. This was a revolver
#cartridge made by necking down a .357 magnum to .22 caliber.
The Jet had a major problem, unless the chamber was absolutely clean the case
would "set back" and bind the cylender from turning. This could have been
fixed with a straight wall case, but it wasn't much better than the 22 Hornet
(or K-Hornet) for velocity, so I guess no one wanted to fiddle with it.
Personally I think the same is true of the 224 BOZ.
skeet38