FR-8....Safe or not?
Quizzacal
My brother in law picked up an FR-8 for christmas. Is it safe to use? What's
the history of this Spanish mauser? What kind of load should it shoot? Thanks
in advance from someone who doesn't want his sisters hubby to catch a bolt in
his face.
David Fuller
I also own an FR8, got it at Roses fore $115. It was the first rifle I ever
bought myself. I like it. It looks cool (got that "gas-tube"esque oiler bottle, got a
bayonet mount and a big 'ole flash hider... Put a black plastic stock on it and someone
will try to ban it for sure!
I have personally fired 50 or so rounds of norinco 7.62X51mm fmj through mine.
It shoots pretty well too. That is, it alsways went off when I fired it. I have no
idea about accuracy. I was shooting at an indoor 50 yard range (stop laughing guys I
don't have access to an outdoor range yet) and everuything went as expected.
There is a post on Dejanews from a gentlemen in Canada who seems to have gone to
considerable trouble regarding these guns, even talking to someone from the Spanish
embassy who happened to be involved indirectly in there development. My answer would be
to have it headspaced and then shoot it as much as you would any other light weight gun
with a metal buttplate that fired a high powered rifle round. Not much on my shoulder.
You should probably check out the 7.62/.308 FAQ on the Fulton Armory page. I
wouldn't shoot .308 in an FR8. That's just me. Have fun.
Dave
Quizzacal wrote:
#
# My brother in law picked up an FR-8 for christmas. Is it safe to use? What's
# the history of this Spanish mauser? What kind of load should it shoot? Thanks
# in advance from someone who doesn't want his sisters hubby to catch a bolt in
# his face.
Spydaman
Quizzacal wrote:
#
# My brother in law picked up an FR-8 for christmas. Is it safe to use? What's
# the history of this Spanish mauser? What kind of load should it shoot? Thanks
# in advance from someone who doesn't want his sisters hubby to catch a bolt in
# his face.
There is alot of hear-say and speculation on Spanish Mausers, mostly
from people who have no first hand experiance with these guns. Like any
surplus gun, have a reputable gunsmith look at it, check the headspace,
signs of stress on the locking lugs, etc. The FR-8 is based on the 98
Mauser, a very strong design. I just read in a pighunting website that
this gun was a favorite due to small size and potent round. I own a
1916 Spanish Mauser (93 Mauser based) in 308 that I've been shooting for
over ten years with no signs of stress, stretching, etc. When first
buying this gun, I wrote NRA for their oppinion on it's safety, and they
replied that it is safe to shoot as long as you do not exceed maximum
load specs (50,000 cup). My reloads are slightly on the mild side. Get
it checked and if it has a clean bill of health, by all means shoot it.
Happy shooting!
KYRIEELLIS
In article <689bf3$r...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, quiz...@aol.com (Quizzacal) writes:
#My brother in law picked up an FR-8 for christmas. Is it safe to use?
#What's the history of this Spanish mauser? What kind of load should it shoot?
#Thanks in advance from someone who doesn't want his sisters hubby to catch a
#bolt in his face.
This has been a hot subject on rec.guns. You might want to go to DejaNews at
http://www.dejanews.com/home_sf.shtml and query on newsgroup=rec.guns and
subject=Spanish FR FR8 FR-8. That should get you both sides of the question :-)
Kyrie
Sawdog357
#I have personally fired 50 or so rounds of norinco 7.62X51mm fmj through
#mine.
# I
#wouldn't shoot .308 in an FR8. That's just me. Have fun.
#
#
Uhhhh... chummer, isn't the 7.62x 51 the same as the .308?
Those that wish to discuss this post, whether or not you agree with me, your
opinion is welcome and you may now have the floor. Those of you that wish to
flame me for your own gratification may piss off.
Gus Porterhouse
"Learn To Swim."
KYRIEELLIS
In article <68bu95$4...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Spydaman <spyd...@mail.shaka.com>
writes:
#There is alot of hear-say and speculation on Spanish Mausers, mostly from
#people who have no first hand experiance with these guns. Like any surplus
#gun, have a reputable gunsmith look at it, check the headspace, signs of
#stress on the locking lugs, etc. The FR-8 is based on the 98 Mauser, a very
#strong design. I just read in a pighunting website that this gun was a
#favorite due to small size and potent round. I own a 1916 Spanish Mauser (93
#Mauser based) in 308 that I've been shooting for over ten years with no signs
#of stress, stretching, etc. When first buying this gun, I wrote NRA for
#their oppinion on it's safety, and they replied that it is safe to shoot as
#long as you do not exceed maximum load specs (50,000 cup). My reloads are
#slightly on the mild side. Get it checked and if it has a clean bill of
#health, by all means shoot it.
#Happy shooting!
Here is a passage from Jerry Kuhnhausen's "The Mauser Bolt Actions, A Shop
Manual" concerning the M1916 conversions.
"...Mauser M91~M95 actions, even in fully serviceable or in as-new condition,
must not
be rebarrelled and chambered for, or fired with, higher pressure cartridges
than the
action was originally made for. An example of stretching this rule is found in
the arsenal
rebarrelling and chambering of M93/M95 small ring Spanish Mauser actions to
fire the
7.62 CETME cartridge...After conversion these rifles were redesigned as 1916
Models.
At normal temperatures, the 7.62 CETME cartridge generates pressures in roughly
the
41,500-42,000 CUP range in a correctly dimensioned chamber and bore."
Mr. Kuhnhausen goes on in the next paragraph to say;
"To compound the above, a 7.62x51 NATO (or a .308 Winchester) cartridge will
chamber in a 1916 Model 7.62 CETME chamber. However, a 7.62 NATO or .308
Winchester cartridge can generate pressures of about 55,200 CUP. THIS PRESSURE
RANGE IS DANGEROUS EVEN IN A WELL HEAT TREATED GERMAN OR SWEDISH
MADE SMALL RING M91~M96 MAUSER ACTION BUT, IN MY OPINION, CAN BE
PARTICULARLY DANGEROUS IN THE MUCH SOFTER SPANISH MADE ACTIONS."
What I have rendered in caps is in bold face type in the original.
Submitted purely for your consideration.
Kyrie
Hodgson Todd
Kyrie,
While all this is very interesting, the FR-8 is NOT based on the older
Mauser actions to which Mr. Kuhnhauser refers. They are based on the
tried and true M98 action which is amply strong.
For what it's worth neither I, nor my gunsmith, can find any reason not to
fire my FR-8. See also Deja News for a long post by a fellow canuck
outlining how the FR-8 postdates the so called 7.62 CETME cartridge and
how it was intended for use with full pack NATO loads.
Note, that I tend to fire them with less than screamingly hot loads (44gr
of IMR 4064 under a 165 or 168gr bullet), but that's because it seems to
shoot them better not because of concerns about the rifle.
Warm Hearth!
Jake
Quizzacal
Thanks to everyone who answered my post on the FR-8. The info you all sent was
very helpful. Now does anyone know where I can find a manual on stripping and
maintenance of the FR-8? Thanks again.
Lone_Wolf
In <68ef7j$c...@xring.cs.umd.edu> quiz...@aol.com (Quizzacal) writes:
#Thanks to everyone who answered my post on the FR-8. The info you all sent was
#very helpful. Now does anyone know where I can find a manual on stripping and
#maintenance of the FR-8? Thanks again.
For the most part, treat it like a Mauser 98, except that you have to remove
the fake gas cylinder to get to the screw holding the rifle to the forestock
(caution, I'm going by memory, haven't had mine out in a while). To remove the
fake gas cylinder, there's a small button you have to depress before you can
unscrew it. There're also some screws holding the trigger group into the
stock.
James
KYRIEELLIS
In article <68eeo7$c...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, hodg...@qlink.queensu.ca (Hodgson
Todd) writes:
#While all this is very interesting, the FR-8 is NOT based on the older Mauser
#actions to which Mr. Kuhnhauser refers. They are based on the tried and true
#M98 action which is amply strong.
Respectfully, my post quoting Mr. Kuhnhausen was in reply to the gentleman
who mentioned firing .308 Winchester in his Model 1916.
Regarding the M98 action, I agree that the *design* is certainly amply
strong. But individual executions of that design may not be. I have seen a
number of FR-8's damaged beyond repair by the use of commercial .308 Winchester
ammunition, and this strongly suggests that at least some of the Spanish FR-8's
are not suitable for use with such ammunition.
#For what it's worth neither I, nor my
#gunsmith, can find any reason not to fire my FR-8.
It is not, and never has been, my recommendation that FR-8's not be fired.
Only that they be fired with ammunition which closely duplicates the cartridge
for which they are chambered.
#See also Deja News for a
#long post by a fellow canuck outlining how the FR-8 postdates the so called
#7.62 CETME cartridge and how it was intended for use with full pack NATO
#loads.
Again respectfully, see my reply. I suspect the gentleman in question
received the answer to the question he asked, rather than the question he
intended. In Spanish sources the "7.62 CETME" refers to the 7.62x40 CETME. This
was one of the transitional cartridges between the 7.9x40 and the 7.62x51
CETME. Also important to note is that Spanish sources do not distinguish
between the cartridges we call the 7.62x51 NATO and the 7.62x51 CETME - both
are grouped under the rubric "7,62x51".
You might also want to check Deja News for a post from a gentleman with
experience in the Spanish Armed Forces and the FR-8 while so serving. He can
confirm for you the existence of the 7.62x51 CETME and the chambering of the
FR-8 in that cartridge
#Note, that I tend to fire them with less than screamingly hot loads
#(44gr of IMR 4064 under a 165 or 168gr bullet), but that's because it seems
#to shoot them better not because of concerns about the rifle.
I think we agree that the goal of hand loading is precision rather than the
highest pressure possible, and that prolonging a rifle's life is a Good Thing
:-)
Kyrie
S GREASLY
Specifications and tolerances for the 7.62x51mm NATO and the .308 Winchester
are not the same. Also, the 7.62 NATO is not loaded to as high a pressure as
the .308 Win. So if you fire .308 Win. in a military rifle designed for 7.62
NATO, you could be exceeding the design limitations. I don't have the exact
figures on hand right now, sorry.
Mike
#Uhhhh... chummer, isn't the 7.62x 51 the same as the .308?
pelon
I did an extensive search in several good books encluding cartridges
of the world (the newest edition) and there wer'nt diddly on the
cetme cartridge.
Id like to know where you all are getting this information on the cetme
and could you please post some of it in detail!
Ive been loading for my 93 mauser in 308 for 4 years now and it is
my most productive hunting rifle. I do however load to specs that
do not excede 45000 in preasure. I still get 3000 fps from 125 gn
Nosler Balistic tips and 2600 fps from Hornady 150 gn Sp. does a
number on antelope and deer. What more needs to be said!
Jerry
*********************************************************************
In Spanish sources the "7.62 CETME" refers to the 7.62x40 CETME. This
was one of the transitional cartridges between the 7.9x40 and the
7.62x51
CETME. Also important to note is that Spanish sources do not distinguish
between the cartridges we call the 7.62x51 NATO and the 7.62x51 CETME -
both
are grouped under the rubric "7,62x51"
**********************************************************************
KYRIEELLIS
In article <690jea$t...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, pelon <pe...@lanl.gov> writes:
#I did an extensive search in several good books encluding cartridges of the
#world (the newest edition) and there wer'nt diddly on the cetme cartridge.
#Id like to know where you all are getting this information on the cetme and
#could you please post some of it in detail!
I'm not surprised that you have had difficulity in finding information -
it's not a cartridge which was used any where other than Spain. The best source
I know of is "Cartucheria Espanola", by Angel Molina Lopez (Doctor Ingeniero de
Armamento) and Alfonso Orea Maestro (Ingeniero Techino de Armamento).
In short, the 7.62x51 CETME uses a 113 grain bullet propelled at 2493 FPS,
with
a maximum chamber pressure of 42,500 CUP. Identical bullet configuration with
the 147 grain 7.62x51 NATO bullet is due to a plastic filler in the nose of the
CETME bullet.
The CETME round is frequently (and incorrectly) referenced as a "light" or
"lower power" version of the NATO cartridge. The truth of the matter is that
the 7.62x51 CETME and 7.62x51 NATO are not related in any developmental sense.
Despite this, the 7.62x51 CETME is frequently confused with the 7.62x51 NATO.
Folks just assume if it's 7.62x51, it's the NATO cartridge :-(
Kyrie